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Omar Little
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:50 pm    Post subject:

Halflife wrote:
why cant biden just sign executive orders? he can validate them all im sure.


Executive orders doing what?
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:58 pm    Post subject:

Wilt wrote:
Well, creating the perception that you want to work with the other side is good politically. That's one of the reasons why Biden won the election. He can't just abandon that political brand. So I understand why he's saying what he's saying.

I even understand why Manchin would want to create the same perception, too. But, at some point, you have to do the right thing or the country will be ruined.

The bolded is only true for 1 party. I'm betting "bipartisanship" polls very low with the majority of Republican voters.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:12 pm    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
Wilt wrote:
Well, creating the perception that you want to work with the other side is good politically. That's one of the reasons why Biden won the election. He can't just abandon that political brand. So I understand why he's saying what he's saying.

I even understand why Manchin would want to create the same perception, too. But, at some point, you have to do the right thing or the country will be ruined.

The bolded is only true for 1 party. I'm betting "bipartisanship" polls very low with the majority of Republican voters.


But no one is saying that it will appeal to the majority of Republican voters. He wouldn't have received over 81 million votes without attracting disaffected Republicans and independents, especially women in the suburbs. That's why he he kept talking about returning to normalcy, since it appealed to those voters.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 4:07 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
Halflife wrote:
why cant biden just sign executive orders? he can validate them all im sure.


Executive orders doing what?

infrastructure is a national security issue.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 5:17 pm    Post subject:

Talking about bipartisanship and acting that way can win you the swing vote, which is good since swing voters swing our elections. But I really hope that Biden has known deep down all along that the GOP doesn't believe in any bipartisanship.

You'd think he knows that, especially since he's been in politics for like 7000 years, but then again some of these centrist Dems are soft and still act like the GOP will at least meet them halfway when in fact they never do.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 5:45 pm    Post subject:

Joe Manchin is full of (bleep). He's doing the Koch brothers' bidding, not his own voters' bidding.

Rachel just read some W. Virginia polling on Infrastructure bill and For the People's Act. It has over 70% approval in the state, including among Republicans. Even filibuster reform polls at over 50% in his state.

If I had the money I'd blanket the WV market with commercials pointing out the above. Show the charts, then show Manchin refusing to carry out the will of the WV voters.

And if it doesn't change his mind, at least you tried. This is what I mean by Dems needing to play hardball. Right now the Chamber of Commerce and Koch Brothers are running ads in WV from the other side to pressure him to side with them -- and it's working. Unless you apply pressure from the our side, they will win out.


Last edited by ChefLinda on Mon Jun 07, 2021 5:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Halflife
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 5:45 pm    Post subject:

slavavov wrote:
Talking about bipartisanship and acting that way can win you the swing vote, which is good since swing voters swing our elections. But I really hope that Biden has known deep down all along that the GOP doesn't believe in any bipartisanship.

You'd think he knows that, especially since he's been in politics for like 7000 years, but then again some of these centrist Dems are soft and still act like the GOP will at least meet them halfway when in fact they never do.

A lot of dems want the image of them to be kicking and screaming to pass legislation but in reality that’s all they want. They don’t care if it passes as long as we think they exhausted every avenue which we know they didn’t
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 6:03 pm    Post subject:

Bernie Sanders's was on Chris Hayes' tonight and was asked about Joe Manchin and how to pass all these bills with GOP opposition, the filibuster and Manchin.

So, the smartest thing Schumer did was to make Bernie the head of the Budget Committee because *not once* during the whole interview did Bernie "trash" the Dems or the moderates (like he normally have in the past).

He is now part of the Dem power structure. Which is great because he can push for progressive causes from inside. And he can't hurt Dems by openly trashing them.

But he had no more answers for how we get from Point A to Point B than any of the rest of us. He just kept saying "WE HAVE TO PASS THESE BILLS."

The reality is that we have a 50/50 Senate with two very "conservative/corporate" Dems (and more hiding behind the scenes). There will never be 10 Republican votes to overcome the filibuster.

At this point we need another huge wave election in 2022 to overcome all the gerrymandering, new voter suppression laws, etc.

I think Schumer needs to put all the bills on the floor, over and over. And when they get filibustered over and over, GET IN ON VIDEO and ram it down Republican throats leading up to 2022. The ads make themselves if Democrats ever figure out how to make ads the way the Lincoln Project does.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 6:33 pm    Post subject:

Wilt wrote:
kikanga wrote:
Wilt wrote:
Well, creating the perception that you want to work with the other side is good politically. That's one of the reasons why Biden won the election. He can't just abandon that political brand. So I understand why he's saying what he's saying.

I even understand why Manchin would want to create the same perception, too. But, at some point, you have to do the right thing or the country will be ruined.

The bolded is only true for 1 party. I'm betting "bipartisanship" polls very low with the majority of Republican voters.


But no one is saying that it will appeal to the majority of Republican voters. He wouldn't have received over 81 million votes without attracting disaffected Republicans and independents, especially women in the suburbs. That's why he he kept talking about returning to normalcy, since it appealed to those voters.


The issue is Manchin and Sinema have blurred the line between what Biden is pitching himself as, and a further left leaning party leader.

When moderate policy is successfully framed as socialism. There is less and less tangible political benefit from framing oneself as pragmatic moderate. Since pragmatic moderate policy suffers the same obstruction and narrative framing as as true Democratic Socialist framwork.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 6:53 pm    Post subject:

ChefLinda wrote:
Joe Manchin is full of (bleep). He's doing the Koch brothers' bidding, not his own voters' bidding.

Rachel just read some W. Virginia polling on Infrastructure bill and For the People's Act. It has over 70% approval in the state, including among Republicans. Even filibuster reform polls at over 50% in his state.

If I had the money I'd blanket the WV market with commercials pointing out the above. Show the charts, then show Manchin refusing to carry out the will of the WV voters.

And if it doesn't change his mind, at least you tried. This is what I mean by Dems needing to play hardball. Right now the Chamber of Commerce and Koch Brothers are running ads in WV from the other side to pressure him to side with them -- and it's working. Unless you apply pressure from the our side, they will win out.


That's a better terminology for what I mean by taking off the gloves.

Running ads showing Manchin's not doing what his constituents want is a good way to pressure him.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 7:24 pm    Post subject:

NEW: In unusual development, Biden administration's Justice Department seeks to defend Trump in @ejeancarroll's defamation lawsuit stemming from decades-old rape allegation. @alanfeuer and I report on the DOJ brief filed tonight.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 7:38 pm    Post subject:

WTF is up with Merrick Garland's DOJ? They are also defending some other Trump policies they have no business defending. Extremely disappointing and irritating.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 7:57 pm    Post subject:

ChefLinda wrote:
WTF is up with Merrick Garland's DOJ? They are also defending some other Trump policies they have no business defending. Extremely disappointing and irritating.

If trump were pres he would make sure the doj did what he wanted. Wrong yes but times have changed we will never go back to how it was unfortunately dems will learn that lesson too late
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Omar Little
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 8:11 pm    Post subject:

Halflife wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
Halflife wrote:
why cant biden just sign executive orders? he can validate them all im sure.


Executive orders doing what?

infrastructure is a national security issue.


That doesn’t answer the question.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 8:14 pm    Post subject:

White male patriarchy scores another disgusting unearned victory -- because they always protect one another. Disgraceful. They are arguing that since Trump (or any public official) can't be sued for doing their job, therefore when he publicly slandered the woman who accused him of rape, it was part of his job.

This is why we need more women and people of color at every level of government.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 8:21 pm    Post subject:

And for all the Republican/Right-Leaning/Conservatives who lurk this thread -- please note that Democrats will criticize Democrats when they deserve it. That's what happens when you're not in a cult.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 8:22 pm    Post subject:

ChefLinda wrote:
WTF is up with Merrick Garland's DOJ? They are also defending some other Trump policies they have no business defending. Extremely disappointing and irritating.


He's seems hell-bent on reinforcing all those "norms" that Trump drove a tank thru. As in, what the previous guy did was awful but we need to protect the "institution" of the presidency by defending what he did as president.

Like the Dems continuing to play by the rules when the GOP has blatantly said they will not.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 8:32 pm    Post subject:

ChefLinda wrote:
Joe Manchin is full of (bleep). He's doing the Koch brothers' bidding, not his own voters' bidding.

Rachel just read some W. Virginia polling on Infrastructure bill and For the People's Act. It has over 70% approval in the state, including among Republicans. Even filibuster reform polls at over 50% in his state.

If I had the money I'd blanket the WV market with commercials pointing out the above. Show the charts, then show Manchin refusing to carry out the will of the WV voters.

And if it doesn't change his mind, at least you tried. This is what I mean by Dems needing to play hardball. Right now the Chamber of Commerce and Koch Brothers are running ads in WV from the other side to pressure him to side with them -- and it's working. Unless you apply pressure from the our side, they will win out.


Here's one of the charts (DNC chairman Jamie Harrison is already using it in his twitter feed):

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 8:41 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
Zoe Tillman @ZoeTillman

DOJ strives to condemn Trump in as many ways as possible ("crude" "disrespectful" "unnecessary" "unwarranted" "inappropriate") while trying to stress that this isn't about Trump, but about making sure all officials get robust protection against being sued


From the DOJ brief regarding the Carroll defamation suit. So basically Trump was a horrible pig to say such things about her but the gov't protects it's pigs from lawsuits.

I am sure you can extend it to the nth degree and come up with some justification that if they allow this suit against Trump that it will open the door for some innocent gov't employee to be sued. But it is hardly justice for Ms Carroll since if the DOJ prevails, her suit is moot, the gov't can not be sued for official acts apparently.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 9:07 pm    Post subject:

Biden Justice Department defends Trump in suit over rape denial

White House responds:

Quote:
“This is in active litigation, and so we refer you to the Department of Justice concerning its court filings,” White House spokesperson Andrew Bates said. “The White House was not consulted by DOJ on the decision to file this brief or its contents. While we are not going to comment on this ongoing litigation, the American people know well that President Biden and his team have utterly different standards from their predecessors for what qualify as acceptable statements.”


Carroll's attorney responds:

Quote:
Carroll's lead attorney, Roberta Kaplan, said she was disturbed by the Biden administration's decision to back Trump in the case.

“It is horrific that Donald Trump raped E. Jean Carroll in a New York City department store many years ago,” Kaplan said. “But it is truly shocking that the current Department of Justice would allow Donald Trump to get away with lying about it, thereby depriving our client of her day in court. The DOJ’s position is not only legally wrong, it is morally wrong since it would give federal officials free license to cover up private sexual misconduct by publicly brutalizing any woman who has the courage to come forward."


Carroll responded angrily to the development. "As women across the country are standing up and holding men accountable for assault — the DOJ is trying to stop me from having that same right. I am angry! I am offended!" she said in a statement.


So if you're a public official who doesn't want to get sued for something you did before taking office, just publicly defame them once you're in office. Magic get-out-of-jail free card.

Disgraceful.
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Omar Little
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 6:38 am    Post subject:

ChefLinda wrote:
Biden Justice Department defends Trump in suit over rape denial

White House responds:

Quote:
“This is in active litigation, and so we refer you to the Department of Justice concerning its court filings,” White House spokesperson Andrew Bates said. “The White House was not consulted by DOJ on the decision to file this brief or its contents. While we are not going to comment on this ongoing litigation, the American people know well that President Biden and his team have utterly different standards from their predecessors for what qualify as acceptable statements.”


Carroll's attorney responds:

Quote:
Carroll's lead attorney, Roberta Kaplan, said she was disturbed by the Biden administration's decision to back Trump in the case.

“It is horrific that Donald Trump raped E. Jean Carroll in a New York City department store many years ago,” Kaplan said. “But it is truly shocking that the current Department of Justice would allow Donald Trump to get away with lying about it, thereby depriving our client of her day in court. The DOJ’s position is not only legally wrong, it is morally wrong since it would give federal officials free license to cover up private sexual misconduct by publicly brutalizing any woman who has the courage to come forward."


Carroll responded angrily to the development. "As women across the country are standing up and holding men accountable for assault — the DOJ is trying to stop me from having that same right. I am angry! I am offended!" she said in a statement.


So if you're a public official who doesn't want to get sued for something you did before taking office, just publicly defame them once you're in office. Magic get-out-of-jail free card.

Disgraceful.


I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiment, but for accuracy sake the contention here is that he can’t be sued for statements made in official capacity, not his actions or statements beforehand.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:25 am    Post subject:

ChefLinda wrote:
And for all the Republican/Right-Leaning/Conservatives who lurk this thread -- please note that Democrats will criticize Democrats when they deserve it. That's what happens when you're not in a cult.

And dems will pay. That’s the difference. I see no problem with being viewed as a cult if the actions taken are beneficial to the people.

Dems eat their own, gop unfortunately don’t.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:43 am    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
ChefLinda wrote:
Biden Justice Department defends Trump in suit over rape denial

White House responds:

Quote:
“This is in active litigation, and so we refer you to the Department of Justice concerning its court filings,” White House spokesperson Andrew Bates said. “The White House was not consulted by DOJ on the decision to file this brief or its contents. While we are not going to comment on this ongoing litigation, the American people know well that President Biden and his team have utterly different standards from their predecessors for what qualify as acceptable statements.”


Carroll's attorney responds:

Quote:
Carroll's lead attorney, Roberta Kaplan, said she was disturbed by the Biden administration's decision to back Trump in the case.

“It is horrific that Donald Trump raped E. Jean Carroll in a New York City department store many years ago,” Kaplan said. “But it is truly shocking that the current Department of Justice would allow Donald Trump to get away with lying about it, thereby depriving our client of her day in court. The DOJ’s position is not only legally wrong, it is morally wrong since it would give federal officials free license to cover up private sexual misconduct by publicly brutalizing any woman who has the courage to come forward."


Carroll responded angrily to the development. "As women across the country are standing up and holding men accountable for assault — the DOJ is trying to stop me from having that same right. I am angry! I am offended!" she said in a statement.


So if you're a public official who doesn't want to get sued for something you did before taking office, just publicly defame them once you're in office. Magic get-out-of-jail free card.

Disgraceful.


I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiment, but for accuracy sake the contention here is that he can’t be sued for statements made in official capacity, not his actions or statements beforehand.


I get that distinction. However he is still using the office of the presidency as a shield against consequences of past criminal behavior. I hope there is some other law suit she can bring to circumvent this disgusting display of institutional misogyny and white male patriarchal power.

Some legal experts are saying Merrick Garland is an "institutionalist" and tends toward defending the institutions. The problem with that is our institutions were born out of white supremacy and male patriarchy. That's why misogyny and racism are embedded in our institutions -- it was intentional. Those institutions are not worth blindly defending. They are part of the problem. IMO. I guarantee you if we had a woman or woman of color or man of color as AG, their default position wouldn't be to automatically and reflexively defend the institution no matter the cost.

Mueller was also an institutionalist. And that was also part of the problem.

Trump has gotten away with everything. How about them defending the proposition that no person is above the law? I'd like to see that one defended by the institutionalists.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:47 am    Post subject:

Halflife wrote:
ChefLinda wrote:
And for all the Republican/Right-Leaning/Conservatives who lurk this thread -- please note that Democrats will criticize Democrats when they deserve it. That's what happens when you're not in a cult.

And dems will pay. That’s the difference. I see no problem with being viewed as a cult if the actions taken are beneficial to the people.

Dems eat their own, gop unfortunately don’t.


No thanks. I have no desire to be in a cult. Yes, Democrats need to stand together more when it comes to voting as a block to get things done. But other than that, there is no reason to be spineless, brainless, yes-person.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:02 am    Post subject:

ChefLinda wrote:
Halflife wrote:
ChefLinda wrote:
And for all the Republican/Right-Leaning/Conservatives who lurk this thread -- please note that Democrats will criticize Democrats when they deserve it. That's what happens when you're not in a cult.

And dems will pay. That’s the difference. I see no problem with being viewed as a cult if the actions taken are beneficial to the people.

Dems eat their own, gop unfortunately don’t.


No thanks. I have no desire to be in a cult. Yes, Democrats need to stand together more when it comes to voting as a block to get things done. But other than that, there is no reason to be spineless, brainless, yes-person.

understood but when you are dealing with independent voters who wield control in some swing states you have to be OK if it comes back to bite you by losing the house , senate etc.

Politics is no longer the same. A ton of obama voters voted for trump in 2016. Trump helped galvanize dems/swing voters in 2020, but as we see GOP is laying ground work for that not mattering in 2022.

So now if GOP get to add dem on dem crime to their talking points that will be a problem.
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