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kikanga
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 Posted: Wed May 01, 2024 9:37 am Post subject: |
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| DuncanIdaho wrote: | | BigBallerBrand wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | BigBallerBrand wrote:
| Quote: | | Grow up and learn to listen to the other side instead of labeling 60% of Americans as morons |
Please give me an example or two of what I should listen to from a person whose intent is to be an autocrat, wants to dismantle democracy, take the rights of women, and is a racist sycophant to name a few negatives, there are many more but I think you get my drift. Searching the fathoms of what I've read and heard I can't find any positives. Please list a few. Make your argument my fellow Democrat. |
I can tell just from the premise of your remarks, and your narrow POV on abortion as evident of your complete lack of understanding on the issue.
Those that oppose Roe v Wade view the topic from a combination of angles: religious beliefs, role of central government, and morality (killing of a human baby).
I vehemently disagree with conservatives and their views on banning abortion. But I’m not here virtue signaling like you far left extremists and claiming moral superiority compared to the GOP. Give me a break. GOP aren’t sitting on their couch intentionally trying to restrict women rights lol. |
Bro you cannot be serious.  |
I normally end up at the same place whenever BBB pops into this thread.
Either he is ignorant of the facts. Or he knows the facts and is trolling. Considering the certainty he has in his statements. I don’t know which one is worse.
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anth2000
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| Posted: Wed May 01, 2024 9:50 am Post subject: |
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Sadly these college protests are just an excuse for people to riot.
I bet only a small percentage of people there actually know why they are there protesting.
It's mob mentality.
Gives stupid people an excuse to be anarchists, rioters, etc.
It's not pro-Israel or pro-Palestine - it's pro-violence.
I have seen the coverage and most people engaging have no idea why they are there....just want to cause trouble.
Am I wrong? |
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DaMuleRules
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Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
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| Posted: Wed May 01, 2024 9:54 am Post subject: |
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| BigBallerBrand wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | BigBallerBrand wrote:
| Quote: | | Grow up and learn to listen to the other side instead of labeling 60% of Americans as morons |
Please give me an example or two of what I should listen to from a person whose intent is to be an autocrat, wants to dismantle democracy, take the rights of women, and is a racist sycophant to name a few negatives, there are many more but I think you get my drift. Searching the fathoms of what I've read and heard I can't find any positives. Please list a few. Make your argument my fellow Democrat. |
I can tell just from the premise of your remarks, and your narrow POV on abortion as evident of your complete lack of understanding on the issue.
Those that oppose Roe v Wade view the topic from a combination of angles: religious beliefs, role of central government, and morality (killing of a human baby).
I vehemently disagree with conservatives and their views on banning abortion. But I’m not here virtue signaling like you far left extremists and claiming moral superiority compared to the GOP. Give me a break. GOP aren’t sitting on their couch intentionally trying to restrict women rights lol. |
Here’s how you know that the GOP is definitely all about restricting women’s rights: They say that overturning RvW was about state rights, but then the GOP goes on to propose legislation restricting women’s abilities for inter-STATE travel in order to control their health care options.
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Dr. Laker
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| Posted: Wed May 01, 2024 10:20 am Post subject: |
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| slavavov wrote: | It's really disgusting how much these pro-Hamas, err, pro-Palestinian protestors are drinking the Kool-Aid and taking this to an extreme over something they didn't seem to care about until Hamas first attacked Israel in October. Many, if not most, of these protestors don't have a single Palestinian or Arab in their families.
I've seen video of many of these protestors wearing masks, not because of COVID, but because they don't want to be identified. That's a clear sign they don't want to protest peacefully -- they instead want to stir s*** up. |
I don't have a single Jewish person in my family, but the Holocaust was bad.
I don't have a single South African in my family, but Apartheid was bad.
I don't have a single Cambodian in my family, but the Killing Fields were bad.
I don't have a single Arab or Palestinian in my family, but the ethnic cleansing of Gaza is bad.
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ChefLinda
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| Posted: Wed May 01, 2024 10:21 am Post subject: |
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| BigBallerBrand wrote: | | BigBallerBrand wrote: | | Wilt wrote: | | Assuming those are genuine thoughts and not trolling, what you said is thoroughly idiotic. |
[Insult deleted] |
Pathetic. Just because I’m a moderate democrat and don’t support the far left ideas you guys do doesn’t mean I’m spreading lies when my point was Biden is just as bad as Trump. I voted for Biden, Hillary, and Obama since 2008 lmao
You called out my post as being idiotic, but you idiot mods are too thin skinned to be called morons because you can’t even admit Biden’s weak leadership is what’s causing the world economy and world order to fall |
You called Wilt a moron. It's an insult. Get it?
The rest are right-wing talking points regurgitated as if you are a neutral. Saying "Biden is just as bad as Trump" is objectively false. That's right, objectively false. Go back a page and read the GOP 2025 project and Trump's interview in TIME. He wants to gut democracy and become a dictator, put brown people in concentration camps and turn women in characters in the Handmaid's Tale.
Last edited by ChefLinda on Wed May 01, 2024 10:32 am; edited 1 time in total |
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ChefLinda
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| Posted: Wed May 01, 2024 10:25 am Post subject: |
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| BigBallerBrand wrote: | | ChefLinda wrote: | New Trump interview with TIME Magazine. Here are the scary lowlights and link to article below. It's the Project 2025 Christo-Fascist plan on Trump steroids. Vote for fascist dictator who seeks to be above the law and wants to turn women into chattel because Biden is "weak" (because he doesn't act like a raging narcissist promising to destroy anyone who disagrees with him and seeks bi-partisanship and International coalitions). Also, (bleep) BBB and anyone who would actually vote for lying, pathetic, POS criminal Trump. Whoever you are, you're as bad as him.
| Quote: | Angry Staffer 🌻 @Angry_Staffer
I’ve written a few pieces on Project 2025 now, but this interview goes way more in depth than previous reporting on Trump’s plans. He says he:
- would let red states monitor and prosecute women who get abortions
- won’t commit to defending NATO nations
- would fire attorneys who won’t prosecute his political opponents
- would suspend posse comitatus and deploy the military on US soil
- would end the pandemic preparedness office
- would fire thousands of civil servants
- would pardon all of the J6 rioters
- would try to make law enforcement officers immune from prosecution
If this doesn’t scare the living (bleep) out of you, you aren’t paying attention. |
| Quote: | | What emerged in two interviews with Trump, and conversations with more than a dozen of his closest advisers and confidants, were the outlines of an imperial presidency that would reshape America and its role in the world. To carry out a deportation operation designed to remove more than 11 million people from the country, Trump told me, he would be willing to build migrant detention camps and deploy the U.S. military, both at the border and inland. He would let red states monitor women’s pregnancies and prosecute those who violate abortion bans. He would, at his personal discretion, withhold funds appropriated by Congress, according to top advisers. He would be willing to fire a U.S. Attorney who doesn’t carry out his order to prosecute someone, breaking with a tradition of independent law enforcement that dates from America’s founding. He is weighing pardons for every one of his supporters accused of attacking the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6, 2021, more than 800 of whom have pleaded guilty or been convicted by a jury. He might not come to the aid of an attacked ally in Europe or Asia if he felt that country wasn’t paying enough for its own defense. He would gut the U.S. civil service, deploy the National Guard to American cities as he sees fit, close the White House pandemic-preparedness office, and staff his Administration with acolytes who back his false assertion that the 2020 election was stolen. |
TIME Interviews: How Far Trump Would Go |
I never voted for Trump you idiot. Again, you far left brainwashed Bernie / AoC fans got too brainwashed the last few years just bc you oppose Trump.
I too don’t support Trump, but I do not think all his supporters are bad people. If you jackasses actually travel and talk to good folks in America in red states (and also visit our allies in Asia, EU, and ME) you wills understand why people vote for Trump (our support him from overseas)
I doubt you socialists are open to talking to conservatives based on how you try to censor a moderate democrat like myself.
The lack of openness and the sense of moral superiority you far left children have is the reason why people support Trump in the first place.
Grow up and learn to listen to the other side instead of labeling 60% of Americans as morons |
Have a nice day! |
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jodeke
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| Posted: Wed May 01, 2024 10:38 am Post subject: |
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| BigBallerBrand wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | BigBallerBrand wrote:
| Quote: | | Grow up and learn to listen to the other side instead of labeling 60% of Americans as morons |
Please give me an example or two of what I should listen to from a person whose intent is to be an autocrat, wants to dismantle democracy, take the rights of women, and is a racist sycophant to name a few negatives, there are many more but I think you get my drift. Searching the fathoms of what I've read and heard I can't find any positives. Please list a few. Make your argument my fellow Democrat. |
I can tell just from the premise of your remarks, and your narrow POV on abortion as evident of your complete lack of understanding on the issue.
What is the premise you speak of? Is a woman who was raped and has to carry to term, a pre-teen raped by a relative has to carry to term, a woman whose fetus is deemed to have lethal abnormalities and the woman may be made infertile if she carried to term, to name a few cases, a narrow point of view or looking at the entire canvas?
Those that oppose Roe v Wade view the topic from a combination of angles: religious beliefs, role of central government, and morality (killing of a human baby).
Now that's a narrow point of view.
I vehemently disagree with conservatives and their views on banning abortion.
It's your right to disagree and in this case, I agree with you though not vehemently.
But I’m not here virtue signaling like you far left extremists and claiming moral superiority compared to the GOP. Give me a break.
You're labeling and defining. You've made yourself judge and jury for a segment you've compartmented. Speaking for myself, I don't claim superiority.
GOP aren’t sitting on their couch intentionally trying to restrict women rights lol.
Intentional or not it's what they're doing. Florida Wants Teen Athletes to Report Periods. You asked for a break, give me one.
LINK |
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Last edited by jodeke on Wed May 01, 2024 11:20 am; edited 3 times in total |
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ChefLinda
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| Posted: Wed May 01, 2024 10:49 am Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | The support of trump by most mainstream republicans proved the point that American conservatism was never based on fiscal probity but rather on preservation of a caste. Even the ones who genuinely don’t think they are racist or xenophobes or imperialists or misogynists actually resonate with all of those things about Trump. Those are his only qualities. He’s demonstrated the opposite of all their supposed beliefs about law and order, personal responsibility, integrity, even basic competence. To support trump is to either openly embrace his character and fascism, or to deny reality to pretend you don’t. But it is his worst characteristics that drive all of his support. Atavism. |
And I would add that saying "Biden is as bad as Trump" is a back door Trump support by pretending it's not.
I would also add that people who vote for Trump's dislike the same people he dislikes -- and they know it. That's their bond. But the logical conclusion to a vote for Trump is a vote to take away the rights of your fellow Americans that are not in their tribe. They are voting to take away women's right to bodily autonomy, thus they are voting to make women second class citizens, they are voting to put pregnant women in jeopardy so they have to bleed out, contract sepsis or die because they can get the medical care they need. They are voting to put tens of thousands of "brown" people in concentration camps. They are voting to take away the rights of gay people to get married. They are voting to take away voting rights from people of color. They are voting to hurt seniors by putting Social Security and Medicare at risk.
Voting to hurt all those people on purpose is not good. If you think can hurt that many people and are gleeful to do it, you are not a good person.
On the other hand, I want Republicans to have equal rights, and voting rights, and good healthcare, and good jobs, and a good retirement. The left does not want to take away any of those things.
The only thing I would take away if I could is their racism, bigotry and misogyny because those things hurt both them and others. But you can't vote those things away.
But both sides are the same, right?
Last edited by ChefLinda on Wed May 01, 2024 11:19 am; edited 4 times in total |
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Dr. Laker
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| Posted: Wed May 01, 2024 10:52 am Post subject: |
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| anth2000 wrote: | Sadly these college protests are just an excuse for people to riot.
I bet only a small percentage of people there actually know why they are there protesting.
It's mob mentality.
Gives stupid people an excuse to be anarchists, rioters, etc.
It's not pro-Israel or pro-Palestine - it's pro-violence.
I have seen the coverage and most people engaging have no idea why they are there....just want to cause trouble.
Am I wrong? |
Yes.
None of the protests started out as violent. Violence came to play when either counter-protesters, police or both got involved. And most of those in the encampments are extremely well-versed on the issues.
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ChefLinda
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| Posted: Wed May 01, 2024 10:52 am Post subject: |
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| DuncanIdaho wrote: | | BigBallerBrand wrote: | | jodeke wrote: | BigBallerBrand wrote:
| Quote: | | Grow up and learn to listen to the other side instead of labeling 60% of Americans as morons |
Please give me an example or two of what I should listen to from a person whose intent is to be an autocrat, wants to dismantle democracy, take the rights of women, and is a racist sycophant to name a few negatives, there are many more but I think you get my drift. Searching the fathoms of what I've read and heard I can't find any positives. Please list a few. Make your argument my fellow Democrat. |
I can tell just from the premise of your remarks, and your narrow POV on abortion as evident of your complete lack of understanding on the issue.
Those that oppose Roe v Wade view the topic from a combination of angles: religious beliefs, role of central government, and morality (killing of a human baby).
I vehemently disagree with conservatives and their views on banning abortion. But I’m not here virtue signaling like you far left extremists and claiming moral superiority compared to the GOP. Give me a break. GOP aren’t sitting on their couch intentionally trying to restrict women rights lol. |
Bro you cannot be serious. |
/John McEnroe voice |
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lakersken80
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| Posted: Wed May 01, 2024 11:41 am Post subject: |
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| I see the UCLA encampment is still up, but now with more fencing and security. I'm guessing they are just gonna let them camp out until the quarter ends or if the protests eventually flame out due to the summer break. This makes sense as the university didn't want to bring more police into the campus to inflame the situation and why the cops didn't come charging into the camp when both sides were going at it last night. |
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anth2000
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| Posted: Wed May 01, 2024 11:59 am Post subject: |
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| Dr. Laker wrote: | | anth2000 wrote: | Sadly these college protests are just an excuse for people to riot.
I bet only a small percentage of people there actually know why they are there protesting.
It's mob mentality.
Gives stupid people an excuse to be anarchists, rioters, etc.
It's not pro-Israel or pro-Palestine - it's pro-violence.
I have seen the coverage and most people engaging have no idea why they are there....just want to cause trouble.
Am I wrong? |
Yes.
None of the protests started out as violent. Violence came to play when either counter-protesters, police or both got involved. And most of those in the encampments are extremely well-versed on the issues. |
Perhaps I could have worded it a little differently. I don't think I am wrong. I think there are those who are peaceful with their protests and beliefs but then are are groups of people that come to cause problems, incite violence etc. I do believe there are groups of people that are doing the right thing with a peaceful protest, but there are also those wanting to just be idiots. |
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kikanga
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| Posted: Wed May 01, 2024 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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| anth2000 wrote: | | Dr. Laker wrote: | | anth2000 wrote: | Sadly these college protests are just an excuse for people to riot.
I bet only a small percentage of people there actually know why they are there protesting.
It's mob mentality.
Gives stupid people an excuse to be anarchists, rioters, etc.
It's not pro-Israel or pro-Palestine - it's pro-violence.
I have seen the coverage and most people engaging have no idea why they are there....just want to cause trouble.
Am I wrong? |
Yes.
None of the protests started out as violent. Violence came to play when either counter-protesters, police or both got involved. And most of those in the encampments are extremely well-versed on the issues. |
Perhaps I could have worded it a little differently. I don't think I am wrong. I think there are those who are peaceful with their protests and beliefs but then are are groups of people that come to cause problems, incite violence etc. I do believe there are groups of people that are doing the right thing with a peaceful protest, but there are also those wanting to just be idiots. |
That’s true for all protests.
What is also true, whether protestors are painted in a positive or negative light. It is primarily determined by how people view WHAT they are protesting. As opposed to the actual actions of the protestors.
In this example. If a news source agrees with Israel’s actions in Gaza. They are more likely to portray pro-Palestinian protestors as violent, dangerous, instigators. Even if the facts on the ground don’t back that up.
And of course the inverse could be said as well.
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kikanga
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| Posted: Wed May 01, 2024 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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I was up till about 3 in the morning last night. Watching live feeds from the UCLA protests. I kind of regret it. I was tired all day at work.
From what I saw via Fox 11 footage on the ground, ABC7 helicopter footage, and several live streams on the ground.
A group of people decided to be vigilantes and try to remove the Pro-Palestinian encampment themselves.
The vigilantes shot fireworks at the encampment, threw some fireworks inside the encampment, repeatedly removed pieces of the barricade, swarmed and beat Pro-Palestinian protestors who left the encampment to try and get back the barricades that were taken, used 2x4s and other objects to injure people on the border of the encampment trying to hold the barricade in place, maced people in the encampment, threw liquid at the people in the encampment, and did their best to troll them into violence.
People in the encampment did mace back in response. But it was far less frequent than the other side. They did throw liquid back in response. But it was far less frequent than the other side. People from the encampment did throw punches back in response when they were getting jumped. But it was far less frequent than the other side.
I was really impressed with the encampment's self-control.
The vigilantes wanted a brawl of epic proportions. That way the school would have an excuse to use law enforcement to remove everyone (including the encampment). And the encampment knew that as well. So they consistently showed self control. The encampment had a much larger population than the vigilantes. I do worry what will happen if the vigilantes grow in size tonight and outnumber the encampment.
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kikanga
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| Posted: Wed May 01, 2024 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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FWIW, I don't think the vigilantes are a proper representative for people who are pro-Israel. I think the majority of pro-Israel counter-protestors are non-violent. And know the vigilantes are only hurting their movement.
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slavavov
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| Posted: Wed May 01, 2024 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | slavavov wrote: |
I get that the "genocide" in Gaza has been bad, and I'm also against it. But these protesters are too obsessed with it. Again, the vast majority of them are white and have nothing to do with what's happening out there. Even worse, they will never hold Hamas or Iran accountable for trying to carry out their own genocide against innocent Jews. |
Their tax dollars are supporting it. Their tuitions are supporting it. And again having empathy for people that aren't in your demographic isn't a bad thing. There are Jewish people protesting Israel's actions as well. Just like there were cops who marched with Black Lives Matter.
I've never heard the protestors supporting genocide. No matter who is committing it. Protesting one wrong doesn't mean you are accepting and supporting other wrongs.
Reminds me of the All Lives Matter arguments. Or when people were saying you shouldn't worry about COVID because other diseases are more deadly. And I'll say what I said during the pandemic. If I donate $ to fund breast cancer research. It doesn't mean I support all other forms of cancer. |
| Dr. Laker wrote: | | slavavov wrote: |
It's really disgusting how much these pro-Hamas, err, pro-Palestinian protestors are drinking the Kool-Aid and taking this to an extreme over something they didn't seem to care about until Hamas first attacked Israel in October. Many, if not most, of these protestors don't have a single Palestinian or Arab in their families.
I've seen video of many of these protestors wearing masks, not because of COVID, but because they don't want to be identified. That's a clear sign they don't want to protest peacefully -- they instead want to stir s*** up.
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I don't have a single Jewish person in my family, but the Holocaust was bad.
I don't have a single South African in my family, but Apartheid was bad.
I don't have a single Cambodian in my family, but the Killing Fields were bad.
I don't have a single Arab or Palestinian in my family, but the ethnic cleansing of Gaza is bad. |
I agree with both of you in the sense that I'm against what the Israeli govt is doing in Gaza and that having empathy for people who aren't in your demographic is a good thing.
But the intensity of these protests just seems to be too much, especially when most of these protestors have nothing to do with what's happening out there. They have put themselves out there to the point of risking their safety, both because of the doxxing kikanga pointed out, and also the counter-protestors.
I remember the anti-war protests 15 years ago when we invaded Iraq (and I participated in a couple back then when I was in college), but these protests are on a MUCH higher level. It wouldn't have been wrong for these people to hold some minor, mild protests to criticize the Israeli govt, but they have just gone too far.
And then there is the matter of how one-sided these pro-Palestinian protestors are where they refuse to hold Hamas or Iran responsible for their own attempts at genocide against the Jewish people. Not all of them are pro-Hamas, but for some, it has been an excuse to roll out their antisemitism and either explicitly or implicitly show their support for Hamas.
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kikanga
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| Posted: Wed May 01, 2024 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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| slavavov wrote: |
I remember the anti-war protests 15 years ago when we invaded Iraq (and I participated in a couple back then when I was in college), but these protests are on a MUCH higher level. It wouldn't have been wrong for these people to hold some minor, mild protests to criticize the Israeli govt, but they have just gone too far.
And then there is the matter of how one-sided these pro-Palestinian protestors are where they refuse to hold Hamas or Iran responsible for their own attempts at genocide against the Jewish people. Not all of them are pro-Hamas, but for some, it has been an excuse to roll out their antisemitism and either explicitly or implicitly show their support for Hamas. |
All protests are demonstrative in nature. And could be done to a lesser degree. But its up to the protestors to determine the severity necessary.
You could argue with the more than 34k confirmed dead (keep in mind we don't know how many are under rubble or in the mass graves the UN chief wants investigated). The 1.7 million displaced. And that there is more US-taxpayer-funded devastation and collective punishment to come (promised by Netanyahu), whether the hostages are returned or not.
You could argue the protests haven't gone far enough.
Over and over and over again, protestors have self policed antisemitism. To pretend the vast majority of protestors don't condemn genocide by anybody on anybody. Its either a distraction from Gaza or just Zionist bias.
I'm not attacking you personally. We aren't too far apart on this.
But you are parroting the unreasonable expectation I see in the media quite often.
Before you criticize the Israeli government you must say "I condemn Hamas" three times, spin around, and do the elaborate "condemn Hamas" dance.
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kikanga
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| Posted: Wed May 01, 2024 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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One critique I do have of the Pro-Palestinian protestors is they do need to drop the "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" chant. I do believe them when they say they aren't calling for Israeli genocide. I mean, keep in mind, you have Jewish protestors chanting this as well. They are calling for equality and freedom for all Palestinians in an area.
But they need to stop trying to co-opt that chant. Its history is too ugly. The phrase can't be "taken back" to mean something else. It's bad messaging. Just like "defund the police" was bad messaging as well.
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slavavov
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| Posted: Wed May 01, 2024 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | slavavov wrote: |
I remember the anti-war protests 15 years ago when we invaded Iraq (and I participated in a couple back then when I was in college), but these protests are on a MUCH higher level. It wouldn't have been wrong for these people to hold some minor, mild protests to criticize the Israeli govt, but they have just gone too far.
And then there is the matter of how one-sided these pro-Palestinian protestors are where they refuse to hold Hamas or Iran responsible for their own attempts at genocide against the Jewish people. Not all of them are pro-Hamas, but for some, it has been an excuse to roll out their antisemitism and either explicitly or implicitly show their support for Hamas. |
All protests are demonstrative in nature. And could be done to a lesser degree. But its up to the protestors to determine the severity necessary.
You could argue with the more than 34k confirmed dead (keep in mind we don't know how many are under rubble or in the mass graves the UN chief wants investigated). The 1.7 million displaced. And that there is more US-taxpayer-funded devastation and collective punishment to come (promised by Netanyahu), whether the hostages are returned or not.
You could argue the protests haven't gone far enough.
Over and over and over again, protestors have self policed antisemitism. To pretend the vast majority of protestors don't condemn genocide by anybody on anybody. Its either a distraction from Gaza or just Zionist bias.
I'm not attacking you personally. We aren't too far apart on this.
But you are parroting the unreasonable expectation I see in the media quite often.
Before you criticize the Israeli government you must say "I condemn Hamas" three times, spin around, and do the elaborate "condemn Hamas" dance. |
You're right, we aren't too far apart on this, and I really appreciate how we're having a civil discussion about this, unlike a certain other poster who attacked others when he criticized Biden and said he wouldn't vote for Biden.
Here's where we disagree: While plenty of these protestors aren't antisemitic or even anti-Israel, some of them are. I'm sure you've seen reports about these protestors who have called for Israel to be wiped off the map, and some have even said straight-up hateful and antisemitic things. It's been all over the news the last several months.
Protests are always seen as an opportunity for the fringe of a movement to stir things up in a disruptive, hateful or even violent way. This pro-Palestinian movement is a slippery slope. One can easily start there and then go down a rabbit hole that first causes them to be anti-Zionist, then anti-Israel and then possibly antisemitic.
I've heard that some of these protestors are threatening and attacking even the people who support a two-state solution, and they accuse a two-state solution of being "Zionist" while continuing to use the words "colonizer" and "oppressor."
For some of these people, they're not even using critical thinking skills. They're protesting against something that is worth protesting about, but they're turning into accusing Israel of being a "colonizer" and an "oppressor" without really understanding the whole picture. I think they're doing this partly because Jews are white and Palestinians aren't white, and also because of the West's tradition of violent colonization and abuse of people of color (which is terrible and something all of us should be against). But it's all an exaggeration and fueled by social media influencers, which is why I said they're drinking the Kool-Aid.
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slavavov
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| Posted: Wed May 01, 2024 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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^^ I have two or three FB friends who have been on this pro-Palestinian bandwagon for a while, which led to me having a debate on FB with someone who is pro-Palestinian. This guy spouted off tons of details (it seemed like he maybe spends most of his free time reading about this issue), a lot of what he said about it is probably true, the rest I'm not sure about. But when I told him both sides have messed up and that Hamas has been just as bad and guilty as the Israeli govt, he refused to hold Hamas accountable, and he even defended Hamas.
He basically claimed that Israeli has been brutally mistreating people in Gaza for 75 years (not sure if that's true), and that because of that, Palestinians have a right to fight back, and therefore he felt Hamas hurting and killing Jews was justified.
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strong9
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| Posted: Wed May 01, 2024 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | One critique I do have of the Pro-Palestinian protestors is they do need to drop the "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" chant. I do believe them when they say they aren't calling for Israeli genocide. I mean, keep in mind, you have Jewish protestors chanting this as well. They are calling for equality and freedom for all Palestinians in an area.
But they need to stop trying to co-opt that chant. Its history is too ugly. The phrase can't be "taken back" to mean something else. It's bad messaging. Just like "defund the police" was bad messaging as well. |
Desparate times man. At some point people get fed up and will not be PC any longer.
I will say though, aside from heavy handed police, right wing wacko (I know, that is duplicative) vigilantes and the folks who are out there just to wreak havoc, the fact that this can even happen should be a source of pride. No other country allows this. We are truly still a free nation (in some respects at least).
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Wed May 01, 2024 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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| slavavov wrote: | ^^ I have two or three FB friends who have been on this pro-Palestinian bandwagon for a while, which led to me having a debate on FB with someone who is pro-Palestinian. This guy spouted off tons of details (it seemed like he maybe spends most of his free time reading about this issue), a lot of what he said about it is probably true, the rest I'm not sure about. But when I told him both sides have messed up and that Hamas has been just as bad and guilty as the Israeli govt, he refused to hold Hamas accountable, and he even defended Hamas.
He basically claimed that Israeli has been brutally mistreating people in Gaza for 75 years (not sure if that's true), and that because of that, Palestinians have a right to fight back, and therefore he felt Hamas hurting and killing Jews was justified. |
He's essentially correct in that one regard. As has been mentioned in this thread many times on this issue, the conflict is multifaceted and goes back 3/4s of a century; which is why some of the criticism of Biden for not simply snapping his fingers and making it go away by shutting off aid for Israel has been met with push back. If any of it were as simple as that tgere wouldn't have been almost eight decades of conflict in the region.
But back to your friend's comments. Israeli mistreatment of Palestinians goes back many decades; Hamas, and other groups that predated them (PLO etc.) didn't come to fruition in a vacuum. They formed as a result of occupation and mistreatment at the hands of the Israeli government. There's a long history of unjustified military action by the IDF and of Israeli settlers engaging in their own form of terrorism against Palestinians, and they use the same rational that Hamas et al have used: that it is in response to violence committed against them.
While I am usually not someone who points fingers at "both sides" in most conflicts, because typically there is an aggressor and an entity that is responding to the aggression they didn't instigate, this one region of conflict where the violence and tension is being fueled by actions by particular factions of both the larger entities involved. Which is why it is important to remember that while Hamas is a horrible and brutal terrorist organization, they don't represent what all Palestinians are about, and there is no justification for acts like those that occurred on October 7th. Similarly, while the IDF's unjustifiable brutality against innocent Palestinian civilians should be condemned, and the current Israeli administration is clearly guilty of war crimes, the people of Israel are not wholly responsible for that. And that is the crux of why the region has been so embroiled on violent turmoil since before most of us were born: the cycle of violence that thrives on, "they did this to us, so I am justified in doing this to them". And that is where your friend is incorrect.
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strong9
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| Posted: Wed May 01, 2024 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Dr. Laker wrote: | | slavavov wrote: | It's really disgusting how much these pro-Hamas, err, pro-Palestinian protestors are drinking the Kool-Aid and taking this to an extreme over something they didn't seem to care about until Hamas first attacked Israel in October. Many, if not most, of these protestors don't have a single Palestinian or Arab in their families.
I've seen video of many of these protestors wearing masks, not because of COVID, but because they don't want to be identified. That's a clear sign they don't want to protest peacefully -- they instead want to stir s*** up. |
I don't have a single Jewish person in my family, but the Holocaust was bad.
I don't have a single South African in my family, but Apartheid was bad.
I don't have a single Cambodian in my family, but the Killing Fields were bad.
I don't have a single Arab or Palestinian in my family, but the ethnic cleansing of Gaza is bad. |
This. Perfect response to one of the most telling statements I've read here. Guessing the OP is too young to remember Vietnam and those protests. To me it shows that maybe America hasn't lost its sense of justice (even if some are going too far).
Edit: to be clear when I say "telling statements" I mean the state of the world, not commenting on the OP himself or herself. I appreciate the discourse.
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kikanga
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| Posted: Wed May 01, 2024 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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| slavavov wrote: | You're right, we aren't too far apart on this, and I really appreciate how we're having a civil discussion about this, unlike a certain other poster who attacked others in criticizing Biden.
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Same here man. I feel the same way.
| slavavov wrote: |
Here's where we disagree: While plenty of these protestors aren't antisemitic or even anti-Israel, some of them are. I'm sure you've seen reports about these protestors who have called for Israel to be wiped off the map, and some have even said straight-up hateful and antisemitic things. It's been all over the news the last several months. |
I believe you. And I'm not surprised.
I'm not naive enough to think everyone protesting isn't antisemitic. The protestors who are on the right. The protestors who love Candace Owens, Joe Rogan, and Patrick Bet-David have been antisemitic even before Oct. 7.
And Netanyahu's is cultivating an ideal environment to increase antisemitism among dumb and uninformed people who identify as left.
I just don't find the antisemitic minority enough reason to discount the greater movement. And I watched the press conferences and protests at UCLA, USC, and Columbia. I didn't see a vocal or identifiable, left-leaning antisemitic demographic. Wouldn't be surprised if that grouping is bigger at protests outside of universities.
| slavavov wrote: |
Protests are always seen as an opportunity for the fringe of a movement to stir things up in a disruptive, hateful or even violent way. This pro-Palestinian movement is a slippery slope. One can easily start there and then go down a rabbit hole that first causes them to be anti-Zionist, then anti-Israel and then possibly antisemitic. |
I agree.
But nothing is absolute. Israel's policy merits criticism. And America's involvement merits Americans protesting. A slippery slope into antisemitism could be used as an argument to excuse ANYTHING Netanyahu does.
| slavavov wrote: |
I've heard that some of these protestors are threatening and attacking even the people who support a two-state solution, and they accuse a two-state solution of being "Zionist" while continuing to use the words "colonizer" and "oppressor."
For some of these people, they're not even using critical thinking skills. They're protesting against something that is worth protesting about, but they're turning into accusing Israel of being a "colonizer" and an "oppressor" without really understanding the whole picture. |
Nobody should be threatening harm or attacking anybody on either side.
The rest of this excerpt we could probably talk about for pages. Historians who've dedicated their lives on studying the area have debated (long before Oct. 7) a 1 vs 2 state solution, Israel being a settler colonial enterprise, and the difference in laws and treatment of Palestinians/Arabs vs Jews in Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza.
| slavavov wrote: |
I think they're doing this partly because Jews are white and Palestinians aren't white, and also because of the West's tradition of violent colonization and abuse of people of color (which is terrible and something all of us should be against). But it's all an exaggeration and fueled by social media influencers, which is why I said they're drinking the Kool-Aid. |
Excluding the bolded. I agree.
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strong9
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| Posted: Wed May 01, 2024 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | slavavov wrote: | ^^ I have two or three FB friends who have been on this pro-Palestinian bandwagon for a while, which led to me having a debate on FB with someone who is pro-Palestinian. This guy spouted off tons of details (it seemed like he maybe spends most of his free time reading about this issue), a lot of what he said about it is probably true, the rest I'm not sure about. But when I told him both sides have messed up and that Hamas has been just as bad and guilty as the Israeli govt, he refused to hold Hamas accountable, and he even defended Hamas.
He basically claimed that Israeli has been brutally mistreating people in Gaza for 75 years (not sure if that's true), and that because of that, Palestinians have a right to fight back, and therefore he felt Hamas hurting and killing Jews was justified. |
He's essentially correct in that one regard. As has been mentioned in this thread many times on this issue, the conflict is multifaceted and goes back 3/4s of a century; which is why some of the criticism of Biden for not simply snapping his fingers and making it go away by shutting off aid for Israel has been met with push back. If any of it were as simple as that tgere wouldn't have been almost eight decades of conflict in the region.
But back to your friend's comments. Israeli mistreatment of Palestinians goes back many decades; Hamas, and other groups that predated them (PLO etc.) didn't come to fruition in a vacuum. They formed as a result of occupation and mistreatment at the hands of the Israeli government. There's a long history of unjustified military action by the IDF and of Israeli settlers engaging in their own form of terrorism against Palestinians, and they use the same rational that Hamas et al have used: that it is in response to violence committed against them.
While I am usually not someone who points fingers at "both sides" in most conflicts, because typically there is an aggressor and an entity that is responding to the aggression they didn't instigate, this one region of conflict where the violence and tension is being fueled by actions by particular factions of both the larger entities involved. Which is why it is important to remember that while Hamas is a horrible and brutal terrorist organization, they don't represent what all Palestinians are about, and there is no justification for acts like those that occurred on October 7th. Similarly, while the IDF's unjustifiable brutality against innocent Palestinian civilians should be condemned, and the current Israeli administration is clearly guilty of war crimes, the people of Israel are not wholly responsible for that. And that is the crux of why the region has been so embroiled on violent turmoil since before most of us were born: the cycle of violence that thrives on, "they did this to us, so I am justified in doing this to them". And that is where your friend is incorrect. |
All well and good DMR and correct but it isn't that simple. You have a marginalized people without a state on one side and a regional power that has unequivocal support from world powers on the other side. With that power dynamic, you will never get Palestinians to act in any other manner. It will never happen. What is the alternative for them? |
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