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ContagiousInspiration
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:01 pm    Post subject:

ChefLinda wrote:
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Ashton Pittman @ashtonpittman

Six years ago this month, Hillary Clinton tweeted that "A Republican president could nominate as many as 4 Supreme Court justices" & linked a warning that it could lead to the end of Roe v. Wade.

Her replies were filled with left-wingers accusing her of "fear mongering."


But her emails, but misogyny, but Pizza Gate.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:07 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Russia is getting itchy trigger fingers along the Ukrainian border again.



Hardly a surprise, American foreign policy in eastern Europe has been dictated by hubris. Following the collapse of the Soviet Union, there was a political land grab to enjoin former Russian satellites into NATO. This strengthened Putin's game plan to stoke paranoia and nationalism that enemy powers were surrounding Russia. The Americans failed to anticipate the sentiment: just because the Cold War ended didn't mean that the Russian old guard would change their attitudes and paranoia toward the West overnight.

This failure was on display when Russia invaded Georgia in 2008, and then followed it with an invasion and occupation of part of the Ukraine. Now they want to take the rest of the Ukraine. I have serious doubts that the US will respond with anything more than economic sanctions, which will not deter Putin. The Russians are armed with precedents: Tepid Western response following the Georgia and Crimean invasions.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:38 pm    Post subject:

angrypuppy wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Russia is getting itchy trigger fingers along the Ukrainian border again.



Hardly a surprise, American foreign policy in eastern Europe has been dictated by hubris. Following the collapse of the Soviet Union, there was a political land grab to enjoin former Russian satellites into NATO. This strengthened Putin's game plan to stoke paranoia and nationalism that enemy powers were surrounding Russia. The Americans failed to anticipate the sentiment: just because the Cold War ended didn't mean that the Russian old guard would change their attitudes and paranoia toward the West overnight.

This failure was on display when Russia invaded Georgia in 2008, and then followed it with an invasion and occupation of part of the Ukraine. Now they want to take the rest of the Ukraine. I have serious doubts that the US will respond with anything more than economic sanctions, which will not deter Putin. The Russians are armed with precedents: Tepid Western response following the Georgia and Crimean invasions.

Not to mention Putin aligning with regional bad actors in Syria, Iran, and Turkey (I know, I know! Saudi Arabia and, I guess, Israel).

I understand the pivot to Asia, but it seems to have blinkered their approach to NATO and Europe over the past 15+ years.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:55 pm    Post subject:

Every president is tested by Russia. Is this Biden's test? I personally wish President Biden would be a little tougher. Not only on Russia but also on Repukelicans.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:57 pm    Post subject:

angrypuppy wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Russia is getting itchy trigger fingers along the Ukrainian border again.



Hardly a surprise, American foreign policy in eastern Europe has been dictated by hubris. Following the collapse of the Soviet Union, there was a political land grab to enjoin former Russian satellites into NATO. This strengthened Putin's game plan to stoke paranoia and nationalism that enemy powers were surrounding Russia. The Americans failed to anticipate the sentiment: just because the Cold War ended didn't mean that the Russian old guard would change their attitudes and paranoia toward the West overnight.

This failure was on display when Russia invaded Georgia in 2008, and then followed it with an invasion and occupation of part of the Ukraine. Now they want to take the rest of the Ukraine. I have serious doubts that the US will respond with anything more than economic sanctions, which will not deter Putin. The Russians are armed with precedents: Tepid Western response following the Georgia and Crimean invasions.


We aren't even doing anything about the fascist authoritarian takeover of our *own* country.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:07 pm    Post subject:

ChefLinda wrote:
angrypuppy wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Russia is getting itchy trigger fingers along the Ukrainian border again.



Hardly a surprise, American foreign policy in eastern Europe has been dictated by hubris. Following the collapse of the Soviet Union, there was a political land grab to enjoin former Russian satellites into NATO. This strengthened Putin's game plan to stoke paranoia and nationalism that enemy powers were surrounding Russia. The Americans failed to anticipate the sentiment: just because the Cold War ended didn't mean that the Russian old guard would change their attitudes and paranoia toward the West overnight.

This failure was on display when Russia invaded Georgia in 2008, and then followed it with an invasion and occupation of part of the Ukraine. Now they want to take the rest of the Ukraine. I have serious doubts that the US will respond with anything more than economic sanctions, which will not deter Putin. The Russians are armed with precedents: Tepid Western response following the Georgia and Crimean invasions.


We aren't even doing anything about the fascist authoritarian takeover of our *own* country.



The divisiveness within our country has only emboldened our adversaries. In terms of foreign policy, we've been dangerously naive and increasingly insular (all administrations) as well as unstable and untrustworthy (Trump administration). Trump's fascism and our stupidity leading to the banking crisis has eroded global faith in democracy and our form of free enterprise.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:21 pm    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
Every president is tested by Russia. Is this Biden's test? I personally wish President Biden would be a little tougher. Not only on Russia but also on Repukelicans.

he said they will come around.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:29 pm    Post subject:

Halflife wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Every president is tested by Russia. Is this Biden's test? I personally wish President Biden would be a little tougher. Not only on Russia but also on Repukelicans.

he said they will come around.

Who? Repukelicans or Putin.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 3:04 pm    Post subject:

I think there are decent betting odds that at least one of, if not all of, Texas, New York, Florida and California are their own countries or part of countries apart from the United States at some point within the next 40-50 years.

I don't think this country survives this century. The problems are institutional and there seems to be a cascading effect that could have only have been prevented (or mitigated) had Trump not won in 2016. The truth is that the majority of this country is not actually represented by its government, and the minority of this country, while overly represented by its government, feels as though it isn't at all. That's a perfect recipe for succession. Both sides will eventually want it and maybe even mutually agree to it, possibly without even a civil war (until they realize that 40 or so of the states will instantly become third world countries without the likes of California, New York, Texas and Florida to rely on).
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:12 pm    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
Halflife wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Every president is tested by Russia. Is this Biden's test? I personally wish President Biden would be a little tougher. Not only on Russia but also on Repukelicans.

he said they will come around.

Who? Repukelicans or Putin.

is there a difference? gQp
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:16 pm    Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:
I think there are decent betting odds that at least one of, if not all of, Texas, New York, Florida and California are their own countries or part of countries apart from the United States at some point within the next 40-50 years.

I don't think this country survives this century. The problems are institutional and there seems to be a cascading effect that could have only have been prevented (or mitigated) had Trump not won in 2016. The truth is that the majority of this country is not actually represented by its government, and the minority of this country, while overly represented by its government, feels as though it isn't at all. That's a perfect recipe for succession. Both sides will eventually want it and maybe even mutually agree to it, possibly without even a civil war (until they realize that 40 or so of the states will instantly become third world countries without the likes of California, New York, Texas and Florida to rely on).

I could see fla. Tx is getting more blue. Ca? IDK Sometimes I wish for it but we don't have a legitimate government. Imagine for a second if Newsome was the president of California. Hell no. Obama/Porter ticket? oh yes.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 5:51 pm    Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:
I think there are decent betting odds that at least one of, if not all of, Texas, New York, Florida and California are their own countries or part of countries apart from the United States at some point within the next 40-50 years.

I don't think this country survives this century. The problems are institutional and there seems to be a cascading effect that could have only have been prevented (or mitigated) had Trump not won in 2016. The truth is that the majority of this country is not actually represented by its government, and the minority of this country, while overly represented by its government, feels as though it isn't at all. That's a perfect recipe for succession. Both sides will eventually want it and maybe even mutually agree to it, possibly without even a civil war (until they realize that 40 or so of the states will instantly become third world countries without the likes of California, New York, Texas and Florida to rely on).


I was born in a country that no longer exists. And the one similarity between that country and the United States I feel the most is that the sense of community disappeared. We no longer exist as a community. There is no dialogue. Nothing connects us anymore.

If the choice is some terrible civil war with unpredictable outcomes or peaceful fragmentation, I'd take the latter.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 6:12 pm    Post subject:

Wilt wrote:
LakerSanity wrote:
I think there are decent betting odds that at least one of, if not all of, Texas, New York, Florida and California are their own countries or part of countries apart from the United States at some point within the next 40-50 years.

I don't think this country survives this century. The problems are institutional and there seems to be a cascading effect that could have only have been prevented (or mitigated) had Trump not won in 2016. The truth is that the majority of this country is not actually represented by its government, and the minority of this country, while overly represented by its government, feels as though it isn't at all. That's a perfect recipe for succession. Both sides will eventually want it and maybe even mutually agree to it, possibly without even a civil war (until they realize that 40 or so of the states will instantly become third world countries without the likes of California, New York, Texas and Florida to rely on).


I was born in a country that no longer exists. And the one similarity between that country and the United States I feel the most is that the sense of community disappeared. We no longer exist as a community. There is no dialogue. Nothing connects us anymore.

If the choice is some terrible civil war with unpredictable outcomes or peaceful fragmentation, I'd take the latter.

Its already headed in that direction. The exodus to places like Idaho and TX has more to do with politics IMHO than just taxes.

However what makes me laugh is that Idaho is becoming unaffordable for the locals, homelessness is up and immigrants are taking on more and more jobs.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 6:45 pm    Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:
I think there are decent betting odds that at least one of, if not all of, Texas, New York, Florida and California are their own countries or part of countries apart from the United States at some point within the next 40-50 years.

I don't think this country survives this century. The problems are institutional and there seems to be a cascading effect that could have only have been prevented (or mitigated) had Trump not won in 2016. The truth is that the majority of this country is not actually represented by its government, and the minority of this country, while overly represented by its government, feels as though it isn't at all. That's a perfect recipe for succession. Both sides will eventually want it and maybe even mutually agree to it, possibly without even a civil war (until they realize that 40 or so of the states will instantly become third world countries without the likes of California, New York, Texas and Florida to rely on).


I don't see a scenario where an individual state can pull it off. Certainly not Florida or New York—it'd be too hard for them to operate as viable sovereign entities.

But I can definitely see a scenario where regions do so. My money would be on the Pacific coast becoming an independent union. California, Oregon and Washington as its own nation would instantly be a significantly wealthy nation with the ability to not only sustain itself, but also be a player in the global economy.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 6:50 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
LakerSanity wrote:
I think there are decent betting odds that at least one of, if not all of, Texas, New York, Florida and California are their own countries or part of countries apart from the United States at some point within the next 40-50 years.

I don't think this country survives this century. The problems are institutional and there seems to be a cascading effect that could have only have been prevented (or mitigated) had Trump not won in 2016. The truth is that the majority of this country is not actually represented by its government, and the minority of this country, while overly represented by its government, feels as though it isn't at all. That's a perfect recipe for succession. Both sides will eventually want it and maybe even mutually agree to it, possibly without even a civil war (until they realize that 40 or so of the states will instantly become third world countries without the likes of California, New York, Texas and Florida to rely on).


I don't see a scenario where an individual state can pull it off. Certainly not Florida or New York—it'd be too hard for them to operate as viable sovereign entities.

But I can definitely see a scenario where regions do so. My money would be on the Pacific coast becoming an independent union. California, Oregon and Washington as its own nation would instantly be a significantly wealthy nation with the ability to not only sustain itself, but also be a player in the global economy.

If things just HAD to be fragmented, I'd prefer your west coast, plus the northeast joining Canada.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 6:52 pm    Post subject:

eddiejonze wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
LakerSanity wrote:
I think there are decent betting odds that at least one of, if not all of, Texas, New York, Florida and California are their own countries or part of countries apart from the United States at some point within the next 40-50 years.

I don't think this country survives this century. The problems are institutional and there seems to be a cascading effect that could have only have been prevented (or mitigated) had Trump not won in 2016. The truth is that the majority of this country is not actually represented by its government, and the minority of this country, while overly represented by its government, feels as though it isn't at all. That's a perfect recipe for succession. Both sides will eventually want it and maybe even mutually agree to it, possibly without even a civil war (until they realize that 40 or so of the states will instantly become third world countries without the likes of California, New York, Texas and Florida to rely on).


I don't see a scenario where an individual state can pull it off. Certainly not Florida or New York—it'd be too hard for them to operate as viable sovereign entities.

But I can definitely see a scenario where regions do so. My money would be on the Pacific coast becoming an independent union. California, Oregon and Washington as its own nation would instantly be a significantly wealthy nation with the ability to not only sustain itself, but also be a player in the global economy.

If things just HAD to be fragmented, I'd prefer your west coast, plus the northeast joining Canada.


That's an ideal double team.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 02, 2021 9:29 pm    Post subject:

angrypuppy wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Russia is getting itchy trigger fingers along the Ukrainian border again.



Hardly a surprise, American foreign policy in eastern Europe has been dictated by hubris. Following the collapse of the Soviet Union, there was a political land grab to enjoin former Russian satellites into NATO. This strengthened Putin's game plan to stoke paranoia and nationalism that enemy powers were surrounding Russia. The Americans failed to anticipate the sentiment: just because the Cold War ended didn't mean that the Russian old guard would change their attitudes and paranoia toward the West overnight.

This failure was on display when Russia invaded Georgia in 2008, and then followed it with an invasion and occupation of part of the Ukraine. Now they want to take the rest of the Ukraine. I have serious doubts that the US will respond with anything more than economic sanctions, which will not deter Putin. The Russians are armed with precedents: Tepid Western response following the Georgia and Crimean invasions.

What more than tepid response specifically do you suggest? Emphasis on 'specifically' because devil in the details. I don't know enough on these matters to disagree or agree btw.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:10 am    Post subject:

ChefLinda wrote:
slavavov wrote:
ChefLinda wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
"The Democrats had 50 years to make abortion access legal!"

No, technically they had at most 21 years (far less assuming the need of a trifecta), abortion was legal under Roe/Casey, and I don't see anyone clamoring for Democrats to pass a law legalizing gay marriage post-Obergefell because it's the law of the land as deemed by SCOTUS.


This is a direct attack on the autonomy of all women. It's an attack on their privacy, their autonomy, their health, their ability to earn a living, their ability to attain an education. If all people are equal under the Constitution, how do you make a law to outlaw misogyny and Biblical patriarchy? The right-wing just keeps coming for it in a million new ways. They do not respect women, they want to control women.

As much as misogyny is a driving force behind outlawing abortion, I feel it's at least as much about trying to make our nation into a Christian theocracy.

We live in a time where conservatives say sh!t like America needs "one religion under God," meaning protestant Christianity of course, and they make anti-Semitic and anti-Muslim comments without anyone on their side really holding them accountable.


The underpinning of biblical Christianity is patriarchy and misogyny. Women and children are a man's property to control. It's all the same thing.

Agreed, it's disgusting how these so-called Christians promote keeping women "in the kitchen" while advocating for child abuse disguised as "discipline" and "proper parenting."

Makes me grateful to be a secular Jew. While my religion has some crazies in the orthodox set, by and large Jews are reasonable and progressive people who believe in championing the weak and left-behind, including women and children.

I only wish 21st century Christianity would evolve to be like that too. Isn't that the kind of thing Jesus taught?
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:30 am    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
I don't see a scenario where an individual state can pull it off. Certainly not Florida or New York—it'd be too hard for them to operate as viable sovereign entities.

But I can definitely see a scenario where regions do so. My money would be on the Pacific coast becoming an independent union. California, Oregon and Washington as its own nation would instantly be a significantly wealthy nation with the ability to not only sustain itself, but also be a player in the global economy.


More likely might be the already-proposed scenario of California splitting into multiple states. If it splits into five states and four of them lean blue, then that's a +6 gain in Senate seats.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 9:24 am    Post subject:

focus wrote:
angrypuppy wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Russia is getting itchy trigger fingers along the Ukrainian border again.



Hardly a surprise, American foreign policy in eastern Europe has been dictated by hubris. Following the collapse of the Soviet Union, there was a political land grab to enjoin former Russian satellites into NATO. This strengthened Putin's game plan to stoke paranoia and nationalism that enemy powers were surrounding Russia. The Americans failed to anticipate the sentiment: just because the Cold War ended didn't mean that the Russian old guard would change their attitudes and paranoia toward the West overnight.

This failure was on display when Russia invaded Georgia in 2008, and then followed it with an invasion and occupation of part of the Ukraine. Now they want to take the rest of the Ukraine. I have serious doubts that the US will respond with anything more than economic sanctions, which will not deter Putin. The Russians are armed with precedents: Tepid Western response following the Georgia and Crimean invasions.

What more than tepid response specifically do you suggest? Emphasis on 'specifically' because devil in the details. I don't know enough on these matters to disagree or agree btw.



You allow former satellites into NATO under a negotiated agreement, much like that of Norway. Norway is a member of NATO, but its membership prohibits the stationing of foreign bases or the deployment of foreign forces on its territory in peacetime and rules out nuclear weapons either on its land or in its ports. Norway like the other Scandinavian countries have centuries of wars and disputes with Russia, they know how to protect themselves while not provoking the Russians. NATO should have used that as the working model.

The Russians would understand the consequences of invading a NATO country. Georgia and the Ukraine were PfP (Partnership for Peace) participants, which was a grey area not only lacked teeth, it was a written invitation to Russia to test NATO response in Georgia. After they realized that PfP was a toothless political ploy that was created to please the domestic audience in the West, they invaded Crimea.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:05 am    Post subject:

angrypuppy wrote:
focus wrote:
angrypuppy wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Russia is getting itchy trigger fingers along the Ukrainian border again.



Hardly a surprise, American foreign policy in eastern Europe has been dictated by hubris. Following the collapse of the Soviet Union, there was a political land grab to enjoin former Russian satellites into NATO. This strengthened Putin's game plan to stoke paranoia and nationalism that enemy powers were surrounding Russia. The Americans failed to anticipate the sentiment: just because the Cold War ended didn't mean that the Russian old guard would change their attitudes and paranoia toward the West overnight.

This failure was on display when Russia invaded Georgia in 2008, and then followed it with an invasion and occupation of part of the Ukraine. Now they want to take the rest of the Ukraine. I have serious doubts that the US will respond with anything more than economic sanctions, which will not deter Putin. The Russians are armed with precedents: Tepid Western response following the Georgia and Crimean invasions.

What more than tepid response specifically do you suggest? Emphasis on 'specifically' because devil in the details. I don't know enough on these matters to disagree or agree btw.



You allow former satellites into NATO under a negotiated agreement, much like that of Norway. Norway is a member of NATO, but its membership prohibits the stationing of foreign bases or the deployment of foreign forces on its territory in peacetime and rules out nuclear weapons either on its land or in its ports. Norway like the other Scandinavian countries have centuries of wars and disputes with Russia, they know how to protect themselves while not provoking the Russians. NATO should have used that as the working model.

The Russians would understand the consequences of invading a NATO country. Georgia and the Ukraine were PfP (Partnership for Peace) participants, which was a grey area not only lacked teeth, it was a written invitation to Russia to test NATO response in Georgia. After they realized that PfP was a toothless political ploy that was created to please the domestic audience in the West, they invaded Crimea.

Moscow will frame that as the U.S. and Western Europe "escalating tensions," but Ukrainian popular support for joining NATO has only increased since Russia annexed Crimea and continued amassing forces along the border.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:28 am    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
angrypuppy wrote:
focus wrote:
angrypuppy wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Russia is getting itchy trigger fingers along the Ukrainian border again.



Hardly a surprise, American foreign policy in eastern Europe has been dictated by hubris. Following the collapse of the Soviet Union, there was a political land grab to enjoin former Russian satellites into NATO. This strengthened Putin's game plan to stoke paranoia and nationalism that enemy powers were surrounding Russia. The Americans failed to anticipate the sentiment: just because the Cold War ended didn't mean that the Russian old guard would change their attitudes and paranoia toward the West overnight.

This failure was on display when Russia invaded Georgia in 2008, and then followed it with an invasion and occupation of part of the Ukraine. Now they want to take the rest of the Ukraine. I have serious doubts that the US will respond with anything more than economic sanctions, which will not deter Putin. The Russians are armed with precedents: Tepid Western response following the Georgia and Crimean invasions.

What more than tepid response specifically do you suggest? Emphasis on 'specifically' because devil in the details. I don't know enough on these matters to disagree or agree btw.



You allow former satellites into NATO under a negotiated agreement, much like that of Norway. Norway is a member of NATO, but its membership prohibits the stationing of foreign bases or the deployment of foreign forces on its territory in peacetime and rules out nuclear weapons either on its land or in its ports. Norway like the other Scandinavian countries have centuries of wars and disputes with Russia, they know how to protect themselves while not provoking the Russians. NATO should have used that as the working model.

The Russians would understand the consequences of invading a NATO country. Georgia and the Ukraine were PfP (Partnership for Peace) participants, which was a grey area not only lacked teeth, it was a written invitation to Russia to test NATO response in Georgia. After they realized that PfP was a toothless political ploy that was created to please the domestic audience in the West, they invaded Crimea.

Moscow will frame that as the U.S. and Western Europe "escalating tensions," but Ukrainian popular support for joining NATO has only increased since Russia annexed Crimea and continued amassing forces along the border.



That's my point: Giving full NATO partnerships (troops based or garrisoned on former satellite soil, the deployment of tactical nuclear weapons on land, or allowing NATO warships carrying nuclear weapons into ports would not draw the same paranoia from Russia. That was the template provided by the NATO power that knows Russia best: Norway. Instead, full membership without those restrictions was granted to unified Germany, followed by the Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland, Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Albania, Croatia, Montenegro, and North Macedonia. In other words, the membership surrounded Russia's borders with countries that were aligned with containing Russia, with troops and missiles from the grand alliance barracked within those countries. You cannot reasonably expect Cold War paranoia to disappear from the Kremlin Old Guard.

Granting NATO partnerships with limitations would have provided staunch defense and likely would have not elicited feelings of paranoia. That paranoia stoked fear and nationalism, which is what gave rise to Putin.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:28 pm    Post subject:

Not voting for Democrats produces worse outcomes than if you'd just keep voting for Democrats.

I don't understand how swing voters, centrists, and leftists in this country don't understand that by at least the age of 25.
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DaMuleRules
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 3:59 pm    Post subject:

LarryCoon wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
I don't see a scenario where an individual state can pull it off. Certainly not Florida or New York—it'd be too hard for them to operate as viable sovereign entities.

But I can definitely see a scenario where regions do so. My money would be on the Pacific coast becoming an independent union. California, Oregon and Washington as its own nation would instantly be a significantly wealthy nation with the ability to not only sustain itself, but also be a player in the global economy.


More likely might be the already-proposed scenario of California splitting into multiple states. If it splits into five states and four of them lean blue, then that's a +6 gain in Senate seats.


I've seen that proposed, and it would great if it happened for that very reason, but I just don't see it doing so.
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eddiejonze
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:21 pm    Post subject:

If we can just get statehood for DC and Puerto Rico…
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