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fiendishoc
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 7:43 am    Post subject:

I had this post already wiped out once on refresh for some reason. Remind me not to compose posts in the forum window.

Fun game, but a lot of things need fixing.

1) Still way too much gambling and unnecessary helping leading to wide open 3s and layups.

These are things that the opponent tries to create from successfully running their offense, but yet the Lakers often hand it to them for free.

Kobe leaves their best player and shooter wide open for 3 in the corner:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijyCkTWK_g8#t=31

Again:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijyCkTWK_g8#t=115

Again:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijyCkTWK_g8#t=136

Watch Wes's man:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-Tay8hJhvc#t=322

Watch Price's man:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-Tay8hJhvc#t=332

Watch Wes's man:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-Tay8hJhvc#t=370

Of course Kobe has done this in past seasons as well. But with this coaching staff, it seems like it's encouraged. Many other possessions they gave up wide open 3s that were simply missed.

While their steals in the second half won them this game, I still believe that with the current roster, they'd be better served playing a conservative brand of defense, because they aren't going face any backcourt this inexperienced during the regular season.

Unfortunately they may take the wrong lesson from this game.

2) Still too many mid range jumpers.

While you could see on some sets they did a better job setting the screen closer to the arc ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijyCkTWK_g8&list=UUsn6QiwC0xvws78Dk5tC1ZA#t=10 ), like GT said above, too many pindowns are deliberately set for long 2s:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-Tay8hJhvc#t=514

Again, these are things an opponent usually tries to force on defense, but the Lakers are giving it to them for free.

On this possession, Wes could have easily gone to wing for an open 3. Instead he curls around inside the arc where he can get a contested long two at best, and it results in the pass getting intercepted and dunked at the other end:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijyCkTWK_g8#t=161

On the bright side, they did a better job of actually standing behind the 3pt line this game.

3) Their offense looks better when they throw out the playbook.

Basically, the only set that really worked was the pinch post option out of the triangle, which actually provides them some spacing, unlike everything else they run.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-Tay8hJhvc#t=34
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-Tay8hJhvc#t=629

Although Boozer played well in scoring and getting steals at the other end, when paired with Hill on offense, one of their defenders keeps getting in the way of what little penetration ability this team has.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijyCkTWK_g8#t=127
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijyCkTWK_g8#t=142
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-Tay8hJhvc#t=81
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijyCkTWK_g8#t=43
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijyCkTWK_g8#t=87

The team was generally more effective sticking to simple spread pick and rolls and clear outs, rather than their attempts at motion. I expect the offense flows better once Randle is able to squeeze Booze out of the starting lineup, which I hope happens sooner than later.

It seems possible that the team gives up running most of Byron's structured offense at some point in the season and improves as a result.

Bonus: Wes tries to give the ref a low five:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-Tay8hJhvc#t=752

Is it too late to give him Vlad's space cadet nickname?


Last edited by fiendishoc on Mon Oct 20, 2014 8:48 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 8:37 am    Post subject:

Thanks for the break down fiendishoc.

Coach Scott is only getting a pass right now because Lin, Henry, Clarkson, and Swaggy are out.

That's a lot of playmakers missing. Can't fault him for that. And the team did play hard. However, that gambling defense seems like it will get eaten alive by any team that moves the ball well.

But I would be curious to hear what Luca Brasi opines about the principles of this offense...
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 2:19 pm    Post subject:

Our offense is never gonna look "right" for what Byron wants to run because we're missing our playmaker, paint penetrator and floor spacer in Lin, our second playmaker and floor spacer in Steve Nash. Our off screen cutter/slasher in Xavier Henry and Ryan Kelly who Kobe called a great all around player and of course Nick Young our floor spacer and shot maker scorer for the bench.


At halftime Byron actually told them to not worry about the offense and just let the defense dictate the offense, it seemed to work.

We're never gonna really run the princeton/triangle the way Byron wants till we get some guys back. Kobe has already said he's not gonna do much ball handling at the top of the key or that stuff anymore very much. So it behooves us as a team to get Lin back and have him play a decent amount of time with the starters.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 3:12 pm    Post subject:

The two clips you highlighted as options out of the pinch-post as "working" seem...not good. One is an iso for Randle, one is a challenged long two from Kobe. I'm not sure those two clips can be used as examples of good offense.

edit: on second read, I see that you said the spacing was better on pinch-post, not that the outcome was better. I am inclined to agree on the spacing point.

I also think the Hill/Boozer pairing is correctible - they just need more time playing with each other to read the other's movements. If Boozer is occupying the block, Hill needs to stay high opposite, and vice versa. Many of the clips look like they're just ignorign each other's positioning and doing what they want. They can both knock down jumpers to a decent range so the spacing shouldn't be a problem with the two of them.

I dunno, I appreciate the work you're putting into this thread but a lot of the clips seem to be a conclusion hunting for evidence rather than evidence informing a conclusion.


Last edited by 44TheLogo on Mon Oct 20, 2014 4:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 4:00 pm    Post subject:

The pindowns were greatly reduced last night. That helped a lot. Anytime I see those starting, I cringe. And, yes, I agree the pinch post options seem to be our best spacing. I actually like how they basically skip some of the initial triangle cuts in these sets and go straight into the pinch post. Sometimes the triangle can grind clock down and you end up defaulting to the two-man game like this. This initiates with the two-man game and gives you more time to cycle into something else if it's not there.

Kobe really explored some of this in the previous game. Last night, he worked in some of the PG play into that two-man sequence vs. just being the threat from the post. This seems methodical and with purpose, which I like. Feels like we're building something in the right direction. And our spacing and offense is much more open and natural with these.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 6:54 pm    Post subject:

44TheLogo wrote:
The two clips you highlighted as options out of the pinch-post as "working" seem...not good. One is an iso for Randle, one is a challenged long two from Kobe. I'm not sure those two clips can be used as examples of good offense.

edit: on second read, I see that you said the spacing was better on pinch-post, not that the outcome was better. I am inclined to agree on the spacing point.

I also think the Hill/Boozer pairing is correctible - they just need more time playing with each other to read the other's movements. If Boozer is occupying the block, Hill needs to stay high opposite, and vice versa. Many of the clips look like they're just ignorign each other's positioning and doing what they want. They can both knock down jumpers to a decent range so the spacing shouldn't be a problem with the two of them.

I dunno, I appreciate the work you're putting into this thread but a lot of the clips seem to be a conclusion hunting for evidence rather than evidence informing a conclusion.


Yeah, those just happened to be the clips that I happened to pull off the highlights. They weren't great shots (long 2s), but you could argue that the defender couldn't challenge as hard because they weren't backed up by a logjam behind them.

I post the clips regardless of the actual result, to illustrate the on the court action- not exactly fishing for evidence. Like a lot of the videos showing the over-helping happened to be possessions where the other team turned the ball over. That doesn't mean that you should be leaving shooters wide open in the corner. And while Ellington's long 2 on the pindown went in, it doesn't mean that they should be running that action.

You're right in the sense that I make my observations first from watching the game live, and then I need to search Youtube for clips which show the instances where it happens. Unfortunately its especially hard to find the possessions that lead to FTs, misses, or Laker turnovers. Also a lot of the opponent possessions aren't shown. If anyone knows an easy way to record clips off of League Pass on the PC, let me know.

Regarding Booze and Hill, if Hill is high, you will see a lot of teams happily daring him to shoot regardless if he's improved from there or not. I watched a lot of old Cavs games over the summer. The Cavs were basically in the same situation with Varejao/ Zeller (who were decent mid ranged shooters) and Tristan Thompson. Their offense never really flowed smoothly other than a stretch where Luke Walton was playing heavy minutes as a stretch four, often with Speights. Check Kyrie's offensive highlight reel from Byron's last season, it's basically iso and P&R.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 7:18 pm    Post subject:

DancingBarry wrote:
The pindowns were greatly reduced last night. That helped a lot. Anytime I see those starting, I cringe. And, yes, I agree the pinch post options seem to be our best spacing. I actually like how they basically skip some of the initial triangle cuts in these sets and go straight into the pinch post. Sometimes the triangle can grind clock down and you end up defaulting to the two-man game like this. This initiates with the two-man game and gives you more time to cycle into something else if it's not there.

Kobe really explored some of this in the previous game. Last night, he worked in some of the PG play into that two-man sequence vs. just being the threat from the post. This seems methodical and with purpose, which I like. Feels like we're building something in the right direction. And our spacing and offense is much more open and natural with these.


Yeah, what I liked about the two man game is that it seemed like they realized they could attack Novak 1v1 or Kanter off the pick and roll, and then they kept going back to it.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 10:21 pm    Post subject:

Gotta give Scott credit for bagging the pindown nonsense.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 11:25 pm    Post subject:

fiendishoc wrote:
44TheLogo wrote:
The two clips you highlighted as options out of the pinch-post as "working" seem...not good. One is an iso for Randle, one is a challenged long two from Kobe. I'm not sure those two clips can be used as examples of good offense.

edit: on second read, I see that you said the spacing was better on pinch-post, not that the outcome was better. I am inclined to agree on the spacing point.

I also think the Hill/Boozer pairing is correctible - they just need more time playing with each other to read the other's movements. If Boozer is occupying the block, Hill needs to stay high opposite, and vice versa. Many of the clips look like they're just ignorign each other's positioning and doing what they want. They can both knock down jumpers to a decent range so the spacing shouldn't be a problem with the two of them.

I dunno, I appreciate the work you're putting into this thread but a lot of the clips seem to be a conclusion hunting for evidence rather than evidence informing a conclusion.


Yeah, those just happened to be the clips that I happened to pull off the highlights. They weren't great shots (long 2s), but you could argue that the defender couldn't challenge as hard because they weren't backed up by a logjam behind them.

I post the clips regardless of the actual result, to illustrate the on the court action- not exactly fishing for evidence. Like a lot of the videos showing the over-helping happened to be possessions where the other team turned the ball over. That doesn't mean that you should be leaving shooters wide open in the corner. And while Ellington's long 2 on the pindown went in, it doesn't mean that they should be running that action.

You're right in the sense that I make my observations first from watching the game live, and then I need to search Youtube for clips which show the instances where it happens. Unfortunately its especially hard to find the possessions that lead to FTs, misses, or Laker turnovers. Also a lot of the opponent possessions aren't shown. If anyone knows an easy way to record clips off of League Pass on the PC, let me know.

Regarding Booze and Hill, if Hill is high, you will see a lot of teams happily daring him to shoot regardless if he's improved from there or not. I watched a lot of old Cavs games over the summer. The Cavs were basically in the same situation with Varejao/ Zeller (who were decent mid ranged shooters) and Tristan Thompson. Their offense never really flowed smoothly other than a stretch where Luke Walton was playing heavy minutes as a stretch four, often with Speights. Check Kyrie's offensive highlight reel from Byron's last season, it's basically iso and P&R.


Got it. Understanding where you're coming from helps. I would be very hesitant to agree with any of your conclusions if you were making them solely based on the youtube clips you're posting, but knowing that they are observations from the game that are then supported in a limited fashion due to the limited availability of highlights is valid.

It would be funny (and some pleasant irony if you're Mike D'Antoni) if the coaching staff came to the same conclusion you have come to and end up playing Wes Johnson at the 4 or something like that.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 2:14 am    Post subject:

I'm not an advocate of D'Antoni style small ball by any stretch of the imagination, and definitely don't want to see Wes at the four again (rebounds are still important). Teams like GS are able to spread the floor with two inside scoring bigs in Bogut and Lee, and it's not just because they have good shooters. Those two are usually nowhere even close to occupying each others space.

Like you said, if Hill and Boozer consistently spaced high low, then it would be better. But I don't have much faith that it will become a point of emphasis with Byron, so I have to hope that Randle can develop fast enough.

I know a lot of people don't like to see Randle floating out there around the arc, but there just seems like there's so much more room to get to the basket when he's on the floor. If you help way off of him, you're letting him get a running start at the basket, which is a scary thought.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 8:54 am    Post subject:

fiendishoc wrote:
I'm not an advocate of D'Antoni style small ball by any stretch of the imagination, and definitely don't want to see Wes at the four again (rebounds are still important). Teams like GS are able to spread the floor with two inside scoring bigs in Bogut and Lee, and it's not just because they have good shooters. Those two are usually nowhere even close to occupying each others space.

Like you said, if Hill and Boozer consistently spaced high low, then it would be better. But I don't have much faith that it will become a point of emphasis with Byron, so I have to hope that Randle can develop fast enough.

I know a lot of people don't like to see Randle floating out there around the arc, but there just seems like there's so much more room to get to the basket when he's on the floor. If you help way off of him, you're letting him get a running start at the basket, which is a scary thought.


I also hope Randle develops fast enough to earn a starting spot, and I also believe that his best spot on the floor will be around the arc so he can utilize his killer face up game. I don't think he should be playing back to the basket on the block unless the other team tries to go small ball and defend him with a 3.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 9:57 am    Post subject:

44TheLogo wrote:


.... I also believe that his best spot on the floor will be around the arc so he can utilize his killer face up game. I don't think he should be playing back to the basket on the block unless the other team tries to go small ball and defend him with a 3.


Yup. Been saying that since we drafted him. That should be his bread and butter. Although, I do think if he has room to post, he can utilize speed there to collapse the D and kickout or score. So I don't think that should be excluded, but I think if we're going to feature him with frequency, it will likely be on the face-up game with room to be mobile.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 11:43 pm    Post subject:

I was more encouraged by the loss against Phoenix than the win against Utah.

More specifically, their pick and roll defense was much improved. They were ICE-ing it more consistently, recognizing earlier when to cut off the middle on the screen.

This reduced the reckless helping on D and enabled them stick with Phoenix even as the Lakers offense was misfiring.

Offensively, it's clear that the starting lineup needs a change, even beyond Lin regaining that spot from Price. They are too dependent on Kobe, and when no one could make an entry pass to him, they couldn't get anything going as the spacing was again poor.

I've said before that the offense this year depends on Lin asserting himself and calling his own number, even with Kobe on the floor. He definitely showed that tonight, as he ran plenty of screen rolls with good results.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 11:55 pm    Post subject:

fiendishoc wrote:
I was more encouraged by the loss against Phoenix than the win against Utah.

More specifically, their pick and roll defense was much improved. They were ICE-ing it more consistently, recognizing earlier when to cut off the middle on the screen.

This reduced the reckless helping on D and enabled them stick with Phoenix even as the Lakers offense was misfiring.

Offensively, it's clear that the starting lineup needs a change, even beyond Lin regaining that spot from Price. They are too dependent on Kobe, and when no one could make an entry pass to him, they couldn't get anything going as the spacing was again poor.

I've said before that the offense this year depends on Lin asserting himself and calling his own number, even with Kobe on the floor. He definitely showed that tonight, as he ran plenty of screen rolls with good results.


yes tonight was a good game. It was also a good sign that our guards kinda played them evenly. I agree that the offence depends too much on Kobe. Even Lin sometimes are deferring a little too much to Kobe. Hopefully with time, Lin will asserts himself more, and / or he is encouraged to do so by Byron and Kobe
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 12:03 am    Post subject:

cheesysapien wrote:
fiendishoc wrote:
I was more encouraged by the loss against Phoenix than the win against Utah.

More specifically, their pick and roll defense was much improved. They were ICE-ing it more consistently, recognizing earlier when to cut off the middle on the screen.

This reduced the reckless helping on D and enabled them stick with Phoenix even as the Lakers offense was misfiring.

Offensively, it's clear that the starting lineup needs a change, even beyond Lin regaining that spot from Price. They are too dependent on Kobe, and when no one could make an entry pass to him, they couldn't get anything going as the spacing was again poor.

I've said before that the offense this year depends on Lin asserting himself and calling his own number, even with Kobe on the floor. He definitely showed that tonight, as he ran plenty of screen rolls with good results.


yes tonight was a good game. It was also a good sign that our guards kinda played them evenly. I agree that the offence depends too much on Kobe. Even Lin sometimes are deferring a little too much to Kobe. Hopefully with time, Lin will asserts himself more, and / or he is encouraged to do so by Byron and Kobe


I did think that Lin and Kobe struck a good balance tonight when they were on the floor together, as they went with whoever was on a roll at the time. But I believe that next to them, one of Wes, Boozer, and Hill has to be replaced (preferably Wes first) or else there's simply not enough firepower, or at least chemistry, among the starters.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 12:29 am    Post subject:

fiendishoc wrote:
cheesysapien wrote:
fiendishoc wrote:
I was more encouraged by the loss against Phoenix than the win against Utah.

More specifically, their pick and roll defense was much improved. They were ICE-ing it more consistently, recognizing earlier when to cut off the middle on the screen.

This reduced the reckless helping on D and enabled them stick with Phoenix even as the Lakers offense was misfiring.

Offensively, it's clear that the starting lineup needs a change, even beyond Lin regaining that spot from Price. They are too dependent on Kobe, and when no one could make an entry pass to him, they couldn't get anything going as the spacing was again poor.

I've said before that the offense this year depends on Lin asserting himself and calling his own number, even with Kobe on the floor. He definitely showed that tonight, as he ran plenty of screen rolls with good results.


yes tonight was a good game. It was also a good sign that our guards kinda played them evenly. I agree that the offence depends too much on Kobe. Even Lin sometimes are deferring a little too much to Kobe. Hopefully with time, Lin will asserts himself more, and / or he is encouraged to do so by Byron and Kobe


I did think that Lin and Kobe struck a good balance tonight when they were on the floor together, as they went with whoever was on a roll at the time. But I believe that next to them, one of Wes, Boozer, and Hill has to be replaced (preferably Wes first) or else there's simply not enough firepower, or at least chemistry, among the starters.


Cool, happy that you think so. I was referring to the fact that the players seemed to pretty much stand still whenever Kobe has the ball at corners. I agree. Perhaps start Lin with Davis, take out one of the threes, at least for experiment sake.

It seems that Kobe already empowered Lin ... http://www.lakersnation.com/lakers-post-game-jeremy-lin-calls-kobe-bryant-a-watchdog-video/2014/10/22/
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 4:19 am    Post subject:

fiendishoc wrote:
I was more encouraged by the loss against Phoenix than the win against Utah.

More specifically, their pick and roll defense was much improved. They were ICE-ing it more consistently, recognizing earlier when to cut off the middle on the screen.

This reduced the reckless helping on D and enabled them stick with Phoenix even as the Lakers offense was misfiring.


Here's some video. This isn't an ideal clip because they didn't run it perfectly, but good defense leading to missed shots generally don't make the highlight reel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnF4DRh9hdM#t=88

Roscoe does a good job initiating ICE by jumping out early and cutting off the middle in front of the screen, while Randle sits back to contain. Where Randle messed up was that he should have waited for Roscoe to yell that he was back in position before running back out to the screener. However, the action did delay the ball handler just enough so that Davis could get over and block the shot.

For the most part the team defended with ICE successfully. It wasn't always perfect, but considering how many P&Rs the Suns ran all game, it was a big improvement from previous games.

Unfortunately on the key defensive possession of the game Boozer decided to hedge rather than contain, which resulted in the ballhandler easily going around him and leading to the game sealing 3 (yes that's Wes helping needlessly off the corner again).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnF4DRh9hdM#t=525

Maybe they didn't want to have Morris pop on that possession, but for the most part, I'd prefer them to stick to ICE unless going against someone like Dirk. The Suns will really miss Channing Frye because of this.

But otherwise, Booze generally did a good job on the P&R, which is to be expected given his four years under Thib's Bulls. I remember another instance where Randle contained on the wrong side and gave up middle penetration. Clearly Julius still has some catching up to do.

(EDIT: I saw that play again and Randle was on the correct side, but Ellington didn't jump out to force the ballhandler away from the screen. Could have still been JR's fault for not calling the pick as Ellington was completely blindsided.)

They did a lot better job staying at home on shooters in this game, particularly Kobe. In the postgame I heard Byron said that one of their rules was to never leave the corner shooter, which was shocking, because they had been doing it all preseason. But it's good to know that it's a point of emphasis.


Last edited by fiendishoc on Wed Oct 22, 2014 11:49 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 6:49 am    Post subject:

fiendishoc...Thank you for your great contributions to this thread.

I'm short on time, so I'll keep this brief, but I thought Lin did a fantastic job of ICE-ing. That post game comment regarding corner 3's perked my ears as well. This makes Ed Davis all the more important, since that essentially eliminates wing help vs. most teams. If you're not leaving corner shooters, which I'm fine with, you have to have a shot blocker back there.

It would be nice if he decided it would be wise to utilize corner shooters on offense for precisely the same reason he doesn't want to leave them on defense, but that's another conversation altogether.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 9:18 am    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
fiendishoc...Thank you for your great contributions to this thread.

I'm short on time, so I'll keep this brief, but I thought Lin did a fantastic job of ICE-ing. That post game comment regarding corner 3's perked my ears as well. This makes Ed Davis all the more important, since that essentially eliminates wing help vs. most teams. If you're not leaving corner shooters, which I'm fine with, you have to have a shot blocker back there.

It would be nice if he decided it would be wise to utilize corner shooters on offense for precisely the same reason he doesn't want to leave them on defense, but that's another conversation altogether.




GT and fiendishoc,

Do you guys think Coach Scott is using Randle the right way so far?

Personally I'd love to see him have the offense run through him in the second unit. Especially while Swaggy P is out. I see point forward all over this kid and I'd like to see him get the reps in. I don't like seeing him have to settle for scraps to get touches.

Which sets do you guys think he'd be most effective in?
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 9:57 am    Post subject:

I think he needs more time on the floor and freedom to make mistakes while it's still preseason. He's not really getting much of either.

So far, the only sets he's looked comfortable in is pinch post and some of the face up isos, although part of that is also due to lack of team execution in the Triangle and Princeton sets, and general lack of spacing in most of the other things they run. The other things tend to take him out of the play.

I agree that they should try to run through Randle more, but when Lin and Davis are in with him, they are the better option at the moment. He can do the iso thing if there are 3-4 shooters around him. Roscoe sharing the floor kind of messes that up.

But you can't iso all the time. What I do want them to do is show him how to set a proper screen, rather than the weak slip he likes to do, and then drill it into him in practice. He can be terrifying as the roll man as we saw in the first game, but he needs to be effective screening first.

And then down the line after that, maybe even next season, teach him the footwork for moving without the ball around the post area. So yeah, he has a lot to work on, but should be great when he puts it together. I don't see why he can't eventually do everything you see Blake do in this highlight:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJeP_pVaTIg
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 10:18 am    Post subject:

fiendishoc wrote:
I think he needs more time on the floor and freedom to make mistakes while it's still preseason. He's not really getting much of either.

So far, the only sets he's looked comfortable in is pinch post and some of the face up isos, although part of that is also due to lack of team execution in the Triangle and Princeton sets, and general lack of spacing in most of the other things they run. The other things tend to take him out of the play.

I agree that they should try to run through Randle more, but when Lin and Davis are in with him, they are the better option at the moment. He can do the iso thing if there are 3-4 shooters around him. Roscoe sharing the floor kind of messes that up.

But you can't iso all the time. What I do want them to do is show him how to set a proper screen, rather than the weak slip he likes to do, and then drill it into him in practice. He can be terrifying as the roll man as we saw in the first game, but he needs to be effective screening first.

And then down the line after that, maybe even next season, teach him the footwork for moving without the ball around the post area. So yeah, he has a lot to work on, but should be great when he puts it together. I don't see why he can't eventually do everything you see Blake do in this highlight:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJeP_pVaTIg


Couldn't agree more. You're right when you say Randle can do everything Blake did in those clips. You can see how Blake's improved jumper has opened up his faceup game. Randle can be just as effective if not more because he is a better passer.

We just need coach Scott to let him play a bit!!
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 10:57 am    Post subject:

22 wrote:


GT and fiendishoc,

Do you guys think Coach Scott is using Randle the right way so far?

Personally I'd love to see him have the offense run through him in the second unit. Especially while Swaggy P is out. I see point forward all over this kid and I'd like to see him get the reps in. I don't like seeing him have to settle for scraps to get touches.

Which sets do you guys think he'd be most effective in?


No, I think he's our most misused player right now. In Scott's defense, I think he's done a pretty good job overall in this respect. There aren't a lot of instances where I say, "what is THAT guy doing THERE?!?!", aside from the clunky spacing, of course. Randle's the only guy that I think is being really misused. A couple of things:

-Every touch is a perimeter touch. I'd love to see him down on the low block from time to time, especially when he has a size advantage. I love his ability to drive to the hoop, but that's not all that he is.

-I don't think I've seen more than 1 or 2 possessions where he's in a place where someone else can create a decent shot for him, outside of a 17 footer. Again, he's basically hanging out on the mid-wing on every play.

-As I've mentioned before, I don't think we have proper spacing on his drives. There are many possessions where the other big is in the strong side short corner, meaning that help is just a step away if he drives in. We need to put a corner shooter there and clear the strong side.

-He's not particularly good at this now, but I'd like to see him in PnRs. I don't know if it's the guard making the decision, or if it's by design, but every time I see him in position to run one, the guard dribbles away to create space and then swings it to him. I'd like to see Side Pick & Roll (below), used with him & Lin. It's especially effective when you have a right handed PG and a left-handed big, or vice versa. The play below shows it with on the opposite side of where they should run it, but you get the idea. I also think the 4 should be weak side short corner (if he can't shoot 3's) rather than weak side block.

BTW, I thought he played a very low energy game yesterday, and that's on him.


(mirror this image for the Lin/Randle combo...they'd run the Side PnR on the left side)
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 12:15 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
22 wrote:


GT and fiendishoc,

Do you guys think Coach Scott is using Randle the right way so far?

Personally I'd love to see him have the offense run through him in the second unit. Especially while Swaggy P is out. I see point forward all over this kid and I'd like to see him get the reps in. I don't like seeing him have to settle for scraps to get touches.

Which sets do you guys think he'd be most effective in?


No, I think he's our most misused player right now. In Scott's defense, I think he's done a pretty good job overall in this respect. There aren't a lot of instances where I say, "what is THAT guy doing THERE?!?!", aside from the clunky spacing, of course. Randle's the only guy that I think is being really misused. A couple of things:

-Every touch is a perimeter touch. I'd love to see him down on the low block from time to time, especially when he has a size advantage. I love his ability to drive to the hoop, but that's not all that he is.

-I don't think I've seen more than 1 or 2 possessions where he's in a place where someone else can create a decent shot for him, outside of a 17 footer. Again, he's basically hanging out on the mid-wing on every play.

-As I've mentioned before, I don't think we have proper spacing on his drives. There are many possessions where the other big is in the strong side short corner, meaning that help is just a step away if he drives in. We need to put a corner shooter there and clear the strong side.

-He's not particularly good at this now, but I'd like to see him in PnRs. I don't know if it's the guard making the decision, or if it's by design, but every time I see him in position to run one, the guard dribbles away to create space and then swings it to him. I'd like to see Side Pick & Roll (below), used with him & Lin. It's especially effective when you have a right handed PG and a left-handed big, or vice versa. The play below shows it with on the opposite side of where they should run it, but you get the idea. I also think the 4 should be weak side short corner (if he can't shoot 3's) rather than weak side block.

BTW, I thought he played a very low energy game yesterday, and that's on him.

http://www.hoopsplaybook.ca/tactics/fig/van_gundy_ballscreens11.png
(mirror this image for the Lin/Randle combo...they'd run the Side PnR on the left side)


GT what's your take on running the side PnR with the popularity of icing pnrs in the NBA these days? I feel like it severely limits the options for the offense.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 12:48 pm    Post subject:

GoldenThroat wrote:
22 wrote:


GT and fiendishoc,

Do you guys think Coach Scott is using Randle the right way so far?

Personally I'd love to see him have the offense run through him in the second unit. Especially while Swaggy P is out. I see point forward all over this kid and I'd like to see him get the reps in. I don't like seeing him have to settle for scraps to get touches.

Which sets do you guys think he'd be most effective in?


No, I think he's our most misused player right now. In Scott's defense, I think he's done a pretty good job overall in this respect. There aren't a lot of instances where I say, "what is THAT guy doing THERE?!?!", aside from the clunky spacing, of course. Randle's the only guy that I think is being really misused. A couple of things:

-Every touch is a perimeter touch. I'd love to see him down on the low block from time to time, especially when he has a size advantage. I love his ability to drive to the hoop, but that's not all that he is.

-I don't think I've seen more than 1 or 2 possessions where he's in a place where someone else can create a decent shot for him, outside of a 17 footer. Again, he's basically hanging out on the mid-wing on every play.

-As I've mentioned before, I don't think we have proper spacing on his drives. There are many possessions where the other big is in the strong side short corner, meaning that help is just a step away if he drives in. We need to put a corner shooter there and clear the strong side.

-He's not particularly good at this now, but I'd like to see him in PnRs. I don't know if it's the guard making the decision, or if it's by design, but every time I see him in position to run one, the guard dribbles away to create space and then swings it to him. I'd like to see Side Pick & Roll (below), used with him & Lin. It's especially effective when you have a right handed PG and a left-handed big, or vice versa. The play below shows it with on the opposite side of where they should run it, but you get the idea. I also think the 4 should be weak side short corner (if he can't shoot 3's) rather than weak side block.

BTW, I thought he played a very low energy game yesterday, and that's on him.

http://www.hoopsplaybook.ca/tactics/fig/van_gundy_ballscreens11.png
(mirror this image for the Lin/Randle combo...they'd run the Side PnR on the left side)


Luca needs to print this out and place it on Coach Scott's desk
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 2:41 pm    Post subject:

44TheLogo wrote:
GT what's your take on running the side PnR with the popularity of icing pnrs in the NBA these days? I feel like it severely limits the options for the offense.


Just as is true with anything, it depends on your personnel. Ice is susceptible to pick & pops. In Randle's case, while he's not a shooter, the Side PnR creates a scoring opportunity because he gets a driving lane against an already recovering big. The key is Lin attacking the outside leg of the big on the drive and "dragging" the defense toward the baseline and/or corner.

You have a pressure release option at the FT line with your other big as well. But again...it depends on what they can do well. I wouldn't run Side PnR with most of our other bigs, but I'd run it with Randle or Kelly.
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