Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 52738 Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
Posted: Tue May 14, 2024 8:43 pm Post subject:
ChefLinda wrote:
I also believe that there is an online Russian opp intentionally targeting young progressive voters over Israel to whip them up even more so they won't vote for Biden or will cause them to vote 3rd party. It's a replay of 2016 when Russian trolls targeted the left (Bernie Bros, black voters and low information voters) who voted for Jill Stein and swung the election in 3 states.
That's not to say arguments over policy are not legit, but they are being pumped up and amplified online by Russia to cause division, chaos and a return of Trump to the WH.
/opinion
Solid opinion.
I think that's a huge factor. It's definitely something my early 20's daughter was getting sucked into for awhile. She was hearing multiple sound bites streamed at her devoid of context, but filled with "comments" attached. When I asked her to give me concrete back up of the extreme positions she was taking, it became clear that that bots, algorithms et al were feeding a false narrative. Fortunately, she gets that part now. _________________ You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90326 Location: Formerly Known As 24
Posted: Tue May 14, 2024 9:08 pm Post subject:
The tell is how much killing is going on in darfur, Sudan, Yemen, the sub Sahara in general, and Syria, among other places, with casualties dwarfing those of Gaza, and these activists don’t have five minutes for it. Because TikTok (and other forms of media gen z consumes) isn’t pushing that. Just like q anon and pizzagate and her emails and anti add and a whole host of other things, the psyops of China Russia Iran and North Korea dwarf our capabilities. Each. And they are coordinating. _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel
Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 52738 Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
Posted: Tue May 14, 2024 9:09 pm Post subject:
kikanga wrote:
DuncanIdaho wrote:
Sure, let’s sanction Israel, and let the terrorists committing war crimes by hiding amongst civilians and committing their own war crimes off the hook.
All Hamas has to do is give back all of the Israeli (and American) hostages. Why is that so hard? Biden said there would be a ceasefire tomorrow if this happened.
It’s nearing 9 months after the hostages were taken. Wonder if we’ll be getting some extras back, that is if they’re still alive…
If a person robs a bank. Kills people. And hides in your house.
And then law enforcement blows up your house with you and everyone you care about inside. Did the robber kill you? Or did law enforcement?
This is the type of intellectual dishonesty that is hugely problematic.
That's horrible analogy on so many levels.
The bank robber was after money. The people he killed were collateral damage. He didn't target the bank because of the ethnicity/nationality of the people in it. Hiding in someone's house to escape the police is a random selection. The bank robber is not there to make sure that any further carnage looks bad for the cops. He's looking for a way to bargain himself out a series of mistakes.
Hamas intentionally targeted people based on their ethnicity/nationality. Their mission was to brutally murder their victims based on that hatred. They didn't wander into that concert on Oct. 7th to steal the day's receipts, they went there to murder everyone they saw. Everything they have done since them was meant to escalate the situation, including hiding amongst their own in places like hospitals. _________________ You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 52738 Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
Posted: Tue May 14, 2024 9:26 pm Post subject:
kikanga wrote:
I think if I was really going to isolate the point of contention between DMR and I on this.
Me: Vote for Biden, but feel free to criticize him and America's involvement in this genocide.
DMR: Vote for Biden, and bite your lip. Cause voicing your criticism makes Trump more likely to win.
Nope again. I don't have any issue with criticizing Biden. I've done it myself and will continue to do so when warranted.
What I take issue with is lamely and ignorantly perpetuating talking points specifically designed to take Biden down.
Quote:
FWIW, he's right. Biden is losing some voters because we are giving Israel the weaponry they are using in Gaza. I just can't bite my lip when it comes to genocide.
Nor should you. It's horrible. You know what else is horrible? Pretending Biden is responsible for it all because he can't solve it the way you want him to.
Quote:
I think when we get the real body count, it will be emotionally devastating to anybody with a soul. And we are nowhere close to innocent when it comes to what is going on in Gaza.
Just curious. Are you aware of the body count Hamas inflicted when it started it's mission of terror last October and the number of hostages it still holds?
I'm simply asking for a friend who cares about the entire picture and isn't deeply committed to one side of an issue. _________________ You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now
Last edited by DaMuleRules on Tue May 14, 2024 9:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 52738 Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
Posted: Tue May 14, 2024 9:36 pm Post subject:
kikanga wrote:
I don't even view this as a debate over Israel vs. Palestine at this point. I see this as a debate over if war crimes and international law is written correctly or not.
WOW! This is encouraging news. You're finally acknowledging the intricacies of international law and the pitfalls involved in navigating it all.
Here's hoping you'll make the obvious connection that is: maybe I shouldn't hold one personally convenient target accountable for it all and understand that maybe there are important issues driving the decision making. _________________ You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29760 Location: La La Land
Posted: Tue May 14, 2024 9:52 pm Post subject:
DaMuleRules wrote:
kikanga wrote:
DuncanIdaho wrote:
Sure, let’s sanction Israel, and let the terrorists committing war crimes by hiding amongst civilians and committing their own war crimes off the hook.
All Hamas has to do is give back all of the Israeli (and American) hostages. Why is that so hard? Biden said there would be a ceasefire tomorrow if this happened.
It’s nearing 9 months after the hostages were taken. Wonder if we’ll be getting some extras back, that is if they’re still alive…
If a person robs a bank. Kills people. And hides in your house.
And then law enforcement blows up your house with you and everyone you care about inside. Did the robber kill you? Or did law enforcement?
This is the type of intellectual dishonesty that is hugely problematic.
That's horrible analogy on so many levels.
The bank robber was after money. The people he killed were collateral damage. He didn't target the bank because of the ethnicity/nationality of the people in it. Hiding in someone's house to escape the police is a random selection. The bank robber is not there to make sure that any further carnage looks bad for the cops. He's looking for a way to bargain himself out a series of mistakes.
Hamas intentionally targeted people based on their ethnicity/nationality. Their mission was to brutally murder their victims based on that hatred. They didn't wander into that concert on Oct. 7th to steal the day's receipts, they went there to murder everyone they saw. Everything they have done since them was meant to escalate the situation, including hiding amongst their own in places like hospitals.
That is nuts.
Innocent people in that house have no control over what crime was committed by the person hiding, what the robber's motivations for committing said crime are, whether the robber is motivated or not to negotiate, or the robber's thought pattern behind hiding there. Yet the people in that house are dust when law enforcement bombs them.
And in this instance. A better comparison is bombing the population of Los Angeles because the street gangs are hiding here after they attacked Arizona.
I was being generous with the house example. _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better”
Last edited by kikanga on Tue May 14, 2024 10:20 pm; edited 5 times in total
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29760 Location: La La Land
Posted: Tue May 14, 2024 10:01 pm Post subject:
DaMuleRules wrote:
kikanga wrote:
I don't even view this as a debate over Israel vs. Palestine at this point. I see this as a debate over if war crimes and international law is written correctly or not.
WOW! This is encouraging news. You're finally acknowledging the intricacies of international law and the pitfalls involved in navigating it all.
Here's hoping you'll make the obvious connection that is: maybe I shouldn't hold one personally convenient target accountable for it all and understand that maybe there are important issues driving the decision making.
Do you think international law agrees with your point? Do you think the weaponry we are giving Israel is being used to follow international law?
There is no international law saying genocide is fine if war criminals are hiding. _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better”
Last edited by kikanga on Tue May 14, 2024 10:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29760 Location: La La Land
Posted: Tue May 14, 2024 10:12 pm Post subject:
DaMuleRules wrote:
kikanga wrote:
I think if I was really going to isolate the point of contention between DMR and I on this.
Me: Vote for Biden, but feel free to criticize him and America's involvement in this genocide.
DMR: Vote for Biden, and bite your lip. Cause voicing your criticism makes Trump more likely to win.
Nope again. I don't have any issue with criticizing Biden. I've done it myself and will continue to do so when warranted.
What I take issue with is lamely and ignorantly perpetuating talking points specifically designed to take Biden down.
If I wanted to "take Biden down". I'd say "don't vote for him because of Gaza".
I've never said that and never will. You are debating a ghost.
This isn't about "taking Biden down". This is about not aiding the mass starvation and collective punishment.
Biden finally put some conditions on offensive weaponry, even though you told me in the past he shouldn't. Judging by some of your comments, maybe you think Biden's wrong for that.
But just like I said months ago we should put conditions on our military aid. I'm saying now, I support BDS. I think it is fair to criticize our policy, right now, in regards to Israel and Gaza. _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better”
Joined: 03 Oct 2003 Posts: 8475 Location: Santa Monica
Posted: Tue May 14, 2024 11:05 pm Post subject:
Omar Little wrote:
The tell is how much killing is going on in darfur, Sudan, Yemen, the sub Sahara in general, and Syria, among other places, with casualties dwarfing those of Gaza, and these activists don’t have five minutes for it. Because TikTok (and other forms of media gen z consumes) isn’t pushing that. Just like q anon and pizzagate and her emails and anti add and a whole host of other things, the psyops of China Russia Iran and North Korea dwarf our capabilities. Each. And they are coordinating.
These same left-wing pro-Palestinian protestors also never call out countries like Iran and the Middle East in general (other than Israel) for their illiberal culture. These left-wingers advocate for women's rights and LGBTQ rights here at home, but they say nothing about Islamofascists who oppress women and throw gay people off buildings, as well as the fact that child abuse and domestic abuse are considered normal in those cultures.
This is one reason why I say these protesters are unusually obsessed with this Israel vs. Hamas war. They can definitely hold some peaceful protests to show their support for the people in Gaza who are being abused, but when they go to the point of holding encampments and even saying antisemitic stuff, and they say nothing about other atrocities in that region, you know they're being brainwashed be social media to a certain extent, just like how the far right has been brainwashed by social media. _________________ Lakers 49ers Chargers Dodgers
Joined: 26 Apr 2004 Posts: 17291 Location: In a no-ship
Posted: Tue May 14, 2024 11:14 pm Post subject:
kikanga wrote:
DuncanIdaho wrote:
Sure, let’s sanction Israel, and let the terrorists committing war crimes by hiding amongst civilians and committing their own war crimes off the hook.
All Hamas has to do is give back all of the Israeli (and American) hostages. Why is that so hard? Biden said there would be a ceasefire tomorrow if this happened.
It’s nearing 9 months after the hostages were taken. Wonder if we’ll be getting some extras back, that is if they’re still alive…
If a person robs a bank. Kills people. And hides in your house.
And then law enforcement blows up your house with you and everyone you care about inside. Did the robber kill you? Or did law enforcement?
Or do we not like Andrew Yang? Was he too radical in 2020 for his concerns over mass layoffs due to the threat of AI? Did we not witness a writers and actors strike over AI? Are we not in a “cost of living crisis,” where universal basic income looks like an obvious solution? I miss the 2020 election energy.
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29760 Location: La La Land
Posted: Wed May 15, 2024 6:32 am Post subject:
DuncanIdaho wrote:
kikanga wrote:
DuncanIdaho wrote:
Sure, let’s sanction Israel, and let the terrorists committing war crimes by hiding amongst civilians and committing their own war crimes off the hook.
All Hamas has to do is give back all of the Israeli (and American) hostages. Why is that so hard? Biden said there would be a ceasefire tomorrow if this happened.
It’s nearing 9 months after the hostages were taken. Wonder if we’ll be getting some extras back, that is if they’re still alive…
If a person robs a bank. Kills people. And hides in your house.
And then law enforcement blows up your house with you and everyone you care about inside. Did the robber kill you? Or did law enforcement?
Why won’t they release the hostages?
I want Hamas to release the hostages. But just so you know. Bibi said he would block aid coming into Rafah and invade Rafah even if they did release the hostages. _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better”
Joined: 26 Apr 2004 Posts: 17291 Location: In a no-ship
Posted: Wed May 15, 2024 8:49 am Post subject:
kikanga wrote:
DuncanIdaho wrote:
kikanga wrote:
DuncanIdaho wrote:
Sure, let’s sanction Israel, and let the terrorists committing war crimes by hiding amongst civilians and committing their own war crimes off the hook.
All Hamas has to do is give back all of the Israeli (and American) hostages. Why is that so hard? Biden said there would be a ceasefire tomorrow if this happened.
It’s nearing 9 months after the hostages were taken. Wonder if we’ll be getting some extras back, that is if they’re still alive…
If a person robs a bank. Kills people. And hides in your house.
And then law enforcement blows up your house with you and everyone you care about inside. Did the robber kill you? Or did law enforcement?
Why won’t they release the hostages?
I want Hamas to release the hostages. But just so you know. Bibi said he would block aid coming into Rafah and invade Rafah even if they did release the hostages.
If they want to end this, they should release them anyway.
Joined: 17 Nov 2007 Posts: 68252 Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
Posted: Wed May 15, 2024 9:38 am Post subject:
I find it difficult to believe Trump agreed to debate Biden. I'll believe it when it happens. President Biden will destroy the Orange snake oil salesman.
I don't trust CNN. I trust ABC
Biden and Trump agree to 2 presidential debates, with first set for June 27 on CNN Betsy Klein Kristen Holmes
By Betsy Klein, Michael Williams and Kristen Holmes, CNN
6 minute read
Updated 12:26 PM EDT, Wed May 15, 2024
LINK _________________ Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
Sure, let’s sanction Israel, and let the terrorists committing war crimes by hiding amongst civilians and committing their own war crimes off the hook.
All Hamas has to do is give back all of the Israeli (and American) hostages. Why is that so hard? Biden said there would be a ceasefire tomorrow if this happened.
It’s nearing 9 months after the hostages were taken. Wonder if we’ll be getting some extras back, that is if they’re still alive…
If a person robs a bank. Kills people. And hides in your house.
And then law enforcement blows up your house with you and everyone you care about inside. Did the robber kill you? Or did law enforcement?
Why won’t they release the hostages?
I want Hamas to release the hostages. But just so you know. Bibi said he would block aid coming into Rafah and invade Rafah even if they did release the hostages.
If they want to end this, they should release them anyway.
If they release the hostages, there is zero leverage, and the best case scenario is Israel will go back to the status quo ante (75 years of apartheid in Gaza/West Bank, which is what launched 2 Intifadas, as well as Hamas).
The worst case is that Israel will continue with the ethnic cleansing until the Palestinians are all driven into Egypt or their population is reduced by 30%. _________________ On Lakersground, a concern troll is someone who is a fan of another team, but pretends to be a Lakers fan with "concerns".
Joined: 17 Nov 2007 Posts: 68252 Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
Posted: Wed May 15, 2024 11:18 am Post subject:
Dr. Laker wrote:
DuncanIdaho wrote:
kikanga wrote:
DuncanIdaho wrote:
kikanga wrote:
DuncanIdaho wrote:
Sure, let’s sanction Israel, and let the terrorists committing war crimes by hiding amongst civilians and committing their own war crimes off the hook.
All Hamas has to do is give back all of the Israeli (and American) hostages. Why is that so hard? Biden said there would be a ceasefire tomorrow if this happened.
It’s nearing 9 months after the hostages were taken. Wonder if we’ll be getting some extras back, that is if they’re still alive…
If a person robs a bank. Kills people. And hides in your house.
And then law enforcement blows up your house with you and everyone you care about inside. Did the robber kill you? Or did law enforcement?
Why won’t they release the hostages?
I want Hamas to release the hostages. But just so you know. Bibi said he would block aid coming into Rafah and invade Rafah even if they did release the hostages.
If they want to end this, they should release them anyway.
If they release the hostages, there is zero leverage, and the best case scenario is Israel will go back to the status quo ante (75 years of apartheid in Gaza/West Bank, which is what launched 2 Intifadas, as well as Hamas).
The worst case is that Israel will continue with the ethnic cleansing until the Palestinians are all driven into Egypt or their population is reduced by 30%.
You guys make these decisions seem easy. Stop the bombing, release the hostages, give occupied territories back to the Palestinians, etc. You're not privy to all the information necessary to make difficult decisions. We elect officials to make those decisions. I trust President Biden. Heavy is the head that wears the crown! _________________ Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90326 Location: Formerly Known As 24
Posted: Wed May 15, 2024 12:04 pm Post subject:
Dr. Laker wrote:
DuncanIdaho wrote:
kikanga wrote:
DuncanIdaho wrote:
kikanga wrote:
DuncanIdaho wrote:
Sure, let’s sanction Israel, and let the terrorists committing war crimes by hiding amongst civilians and committing their own war crimes off the hook.
All Hamas has to do is give back all of the Israeli (and American) hostages. Why is that so hard? Biden said there would be a ceasefire tomorrow if this happened.
It’s nearing 9 months after the hostages were taken. Wonder if we’ll be getting some extras back, that is if they’re still alive…
If a person robs a bank. Kills people. And hides in your house.
And then law enforcement blows up your house with you and everyone you care about inside. Did the robber kill you? Or did law enforcement?
Why won’t they release the hostages?
I want Hamas to release the hostages. But just so you know. Bibi said he would block aid coming into Rafah and invade Rafah even if they did release the hostages.
If they want to end this, they should release them anyway.
If they release the hostages, there is zero leverage, and the best case scenario is Israel will go back to the status quo ante (75 years of apartheid in Gaza/West Bank, which is what launched 2 Intifadas, as well as Hamas).
The worst case is that Israel will continue with the ethnic cleansing until the Palestinians are all driven into Egypt or their population is reduced by 30%.
To be fair, one of those intifadas was launched because Israel was prepared to give up its control, but due to groups not wanting it to happen and Arafat not being able to find a security partner regionally, he had to reject the agreement.
And fwiw, Gaza is not Egypt and the west bank is not jordan in part because neither wants them, given their history with the populations. Israel doesn’t want Gaza either, and neither does any other Arab nation. _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29760 Location: La La Land
Posted: Wed May 15, 2024 2:01 pm Post subject:
Omar Little wrote:
To be fair, one of those intifadas was launched because Israel was prepared to give up its control, but due to groups not wanting it to happen and Arafat not being able to find a security partner regionally, he had to reject the agreement.
And fwiw, Gaza is not Egypt and the west bank is not jordan in part because neither wants them, given their history with the populations. Israel doesn’t want Gaza either, and neither does any other Arab nation.
Everything you said is correct. Outside of the bolded.
And nothing you said justifies the mass graves. Created by American weaponry, purposefully used by Bibi to not restrict civilian casualty (even though Bibi has the capability to do so).
I'm not trying to be confrontational. But I am sensitive to arguments that redirect the conversation away from the civilians on the ground being collectively punished. _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better”
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29760 Location: La La Land
Posted: Wed May 15, 2024 2:08 pm Post subject:
jodeke wrote:
You guys make these decisions seem easy. Stop the bombing, release the hostages, give occupied territories back to the Palestinians, etc. You're not privy to all the information necessary to make difficult decisions. We elect officials to make those decisions. I trust President Biden. Heavy is the head that wears the crown!
I was where you were not too long ago. It's not so simple. And we aren't Republicans. Where we single mindedly agree with every decision made by our party leader, because he is our party leader.
On this specific issue, like all other issues. Biden has been better than Trump. So we should all still vote for him. But at the same time, there is still room for improvement.
That's why Biden now, has a different position than Biden months ago.
A conflict being difficult, complicated, complex, etc. Doesn't mean we can throw our hands up and say. There is no room for improvement from what we are currently doing. Whether it is Gaza or something like ... better tax policy that effectively targets billionaires. _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better”
Joined: 15 Sep 2012 Posts: 29760 Location: La La Land
Posted: Wed May 15, 2024 2:18 pm Post subject:
I recommend Pod Save the World to people in this thread who are open minded and want to learn more about the background behind my perspective.
It's a podcast made by former White House staff (for Obama). They just won a Webby for Best News & Politics podcast. And they aren't a "radical progressive" like I am. They are firm Pro-Biden liberals who make the same points I am making. Except with more evidence and eloquence. _________________ "Every hurt is a lesson, and every lesson makes you better”
Trump is now up by 1 at the betting site Predictit. A couple weeks ago Biden was up 11. _________________ Nobody in the NBA can touch the Laker brand, which, like the uniform color, is pure gold.
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90326 Location: Formerly Known As 24
Posted: Wed May 15, 2024 3:50 pm Post subject:
kikanga wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
To be fair, one of those intifadas was launched because Israel was prepared to give up its control, but due to groups not wanting it to happen and Arafat not being able to find a security partner regionally, he had to reject the agreement.
And fwiw, Gaza is not Egypt and the west bank is not jordan in part because neither wants them, given their history with the populations. Israel doesn’t want Gaza either, and neither does any other Arab nation.
Everything you said is correct. Outside of the bolded.
And nothing you said justifies the mass graves. Created by American weaponry, purposefully used by Bibi to not restrict civilian casualty (even though Bibi has the capability to do so).
I'm not trying to be confrontational. But I am sensitive to arguments that redirect the conversation away from the civilians on the ground being collectively punished.
If you disagree with the bold I do t know how to help, because the whole reason there is a Gaza Strip is because neither Israel nor Egypt want it. The two reasons Israel is there are that they were hit with a major attack and any country in the world would go in, and Netenyahu wants to keep it going because it delays him losing power. The very last thing Israel wants to do is occupy Gaza permanently because there’s no benefit there, unlike the west bank where there is territorial desire.
Fwiw, getting back to the original premise that Gaza is a sovereign territory and Hamas is its government, their attack on Israel requires and allows Israel to wage a pretty total war to end the capacity of that sovereign enemy to continue to wage war. Hamas can’t fight Israel straight up without hostages, both the Israelis and their own civilians, whom they care about even less than Israel does. And Israel, while it does have precautionary rules, does have the right of pretty total war which will include civilian deaths in the thousands, because Hamas has violated war laws first, and Israel is not constrained to just give up because Hamas has decided to fight from civilian areas.
There are lots of things Israel is doing that may or do violate rules of war, but most of the death toll is specifically related to Hamas decisions, because this is what they want (or rather, this is what their masters want for other reasons). They are genociding their own people, which is pretty par for the course.
None of this fails to hold Israel accountable to a lawful strategy and tactics, which I believe they are violating because they have moved from a response to a stall. But ask the German or Japanese civilians what happens if you attack another country and then fight street to street in your own cities. You get untold civilian casualties. And yes, the Allies also committed war crimes (some of the fire bombing for example). But they also killed hundreds of thousands of civilians legally under the rules of war. _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel
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Do you think international law agrees with your point? Do you think the weaponry we are giving Israel is being used to follow international law?
