About Bynum

 
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Mike@LG
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 8:18 pm    Post subject: About Bynum

http://www.hbo.com/events/ucla/ucla_dynasty.html

I hope Laker fans watch that hour of documentary. It does a great job talking about the talent of UCLA and how well structured Wooden was with his players.

Even better, it showed just how talented Kareem was at 19, dominating the competition on skills and size despite being bigger than everyone.

Using that as a guage, is an indicator of just how far I think Bynum has to go in terms of upside just to be an All Star.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:28 pm    Post subject:

Kareem dominated from the start, but that didn't mean that he kept improving. It would have taken far more work for Kareem to get even a small improvement, since he's already at what you would called reasonable maximum level.

Actually, it would have been interesting to see where Kareem would have ended up if he had Kobe's work ethic. See, Kareem could have been that much better, which doesn't necessarily mean that Bynum can't be an All-Star.

Finally, I doubt Kareem even cared about improving his hops or quickness, as he's already so good. Bynum has more "tools" at his disposal right now, so certainly, he can catch up.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 10:36 pm    Post subject:

But the point is, you see how dominant he was skillwise AND athletically at age 19. Period.

Interesting if he had KObe's work ethic? He had a 20 year career, extended by martial arts, and is the NBA's leading scorer of all time.

I can't believe you're questioning the work ethic.

Bynum has more tools? The only thing Bynum has over Kareem is weight. That's it. Quickness, agility, footspeed, footwork, top speed, hops, that's all Kareem.

Not much to improve on? Yeah, let's question the guy that Wilt admitted Kareem was the only guy he needed help defense with, because even with Wilt past his prime, he got his butt whooped by rookie Kareem.

That'd be the equivalent of Bynum going for a 30-20 game against Shaq right now...
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 10:43 pm    Post subject:

ProjectAB = Joey from the movie Airplane.
Mike [AT] LG = Roger Murdock

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:31 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
But the point is, you see how dominant he was skillwise AND athletically at age 19. Period.

he got his butt whooped by rookie Kareem.

That'd be the equivalent of Bynum going for a 30-20 game against Shaq right now...


There is no period.

Dominating college players at 19 and dominating the NBA at 19 are two different things. Particularly dominating on the JV circuit in college.

Bynum is on the equivalent of Kareem's first year on the Varsity.

Kareem played three years at the highest level of high school basketball in NYC. Bynum was unable to play large parts of his HS career due to injuries and other reasons.

And comparing the pressure to succeed in todays NBA versus that of years ago is also different. The amount of media coverage and the money involved. Back in the day if you did not do well in the NBA you could go off and sell insurance and do about as well. Today you can set up your entire family, possilbly your great grand-kids for life. You get crticized by newspapers around the world, fans on the net around the world,etc etc. Apples and oranges.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 6:49 am    Post subject: Re: About Bynum

Mike@LG wrote:
http://www.hbo.com/events/ucla/ucla_dynasty.html

I hope Laker fans watch that hour of documentary. It does a great job talking about the talent of UCLA and how well structured Wooden was with his players.

Even better, it showed just how talented Kareem was at 19, dominating the competition on skills and size despite being bigger than everyone.

Using that as a guage, is an indicator of just how far I think Bynum has to go in terms of upside just to be an All Star.


Mike I did see this. Brought back good memories(yes I am old). I am glad they mentioned that the tape delayed games at 11 pm had higher ratings than Johnny Carson now I don't feel stupid staying up to watch these games.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 6:50 am    Post subject:

I think all Mike's trying to show is that we shouldn't be so enamoured with Bynum athletically when you look at Kareem at the same age.

IMO they have different body types and it's a little hard to compare the two, because Kareem had more of a 7'2" small forward body and Andrew has a lower center of gravity--large, strong thighs and calves. Just look at the bodies of Shaq, Mourning, Hakeem, Moses Malone and even Curry. Clearly they have low centers of gravity. They don't have those spindly legs, even though they have length in their upper bodies.

Contrast those body types with Kareem, Tyson Chandler, Rik Smits, Manute Bol, Saer Sene, Kevin Garnett, and even Wilt (who's a bit of a tweener body type--long, gangly legs, but fairly low center of gravity).

Jumping ability and explosiveness are important, but look at what Moses Malone did against Kareem in the `83 NBA finals.

If you can anchor yourself close to the basket and you have length to boot, then that's going to carry a lot of influence on rebounding and high percentage scoring. The problem with Andrew is that he's not using his low center of gravity, whether it's because he's a kid, or too scared, or too weak, I don't know.

To the poster who said Kareem didn't have a work ethic, you're just plain wrong.
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Mike@LG
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 7:09 am    Post subject:

Quote:


Bynum is on the equivalent of Kareem's first year on the Varsity.


You should see the scores. UCLA won some games by 80+ points.

Quote:
I think all Mike's trying to show is that we shouldn't be so enamoured with Bynum athletically when you look at Kareem at the same age.


Exactly.

Quote:
Kareem played three years at the highest level of high school basketball in NYC. Bynum was unable to play large parts of his HS career due to injuries and other reasons.


Which makes, Bynum further behind the curve.

Quote:
Bynum is on the equivalent of Kareem's first year on the Varsity.


And that's why Kareem's frosh team beat UCLA's varsity team.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 11:33 am    Post subject:

Kareem is the most dominant basketball player of all time, and it's not even close. Not only did he dominate at every level of basketball, his teams were dominant at every level. There is no other player that can say that.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 11:56 am    Post subject:

Look, the numbers don't lie. Kareem had his best numbers as a freshman in college. His numbers actually declined slightly after that. It showed me that he didn't work hard enough or barely worked enough to maintain his production. Furthermore, as Kobe shows, there are different definitions of hard work. We look at a guy like Duncan(who I guess probably works about 3 hrs a day, team practices aside, which I guess is also how much Kareem worked), and we say, okay, he's a hard worker, but then you have a guy like Kobe, who probably works 9 hrs a day, so now you have a whole new different definition of work ethic. By that standard, you can say that Kareem didn't work hard enough, without saying that he was lazy(and really, 3 hrs a day, in addition to team practices, is no joke.)

As far as his longevity, even though he was a big, he was 240 lbs, not too surprising that he lasted that long. So actually, by not pushing himself too much, i.e putting on weight, that actually preserved his career. However, that meant that his numbers at his prime weren't as good as they should have been.
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Mike@LG
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:15 pm    Post subject:

About numbers. How about he had better teammates and the production was spread?

It's in my signature as to why numbers can lie.

As for being 240lbs. Don't you think that's a disadvantage? Think Lamar Odom could play center for 20 years? Why not?

Numbers in his prime. Which part? The 34.8ppg or 16.9rpg?

I really really don't understand your perspective. Duncan isn't being a dominating force but he's constantly in shape and he doesn't have to be a wrecking ball for the Spurs to be a dominant team. Where did the distribution go? Parker and Ginobili. What. You don't think Duncan isn't saving something for the playoffs?

Have you seen Kareem's career stats?
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:25 pm    Post subject:

ProjectAB wrote:
Look, the numbers don't lie. Kareem had his best numbers as a freshman in college. His numbers actually declined slightly after that. It showed me that he didn't work hard enough or barely worked enough to maintain his production. Furthermore, as Kobe shows, there are different definitions of hard work. We look at a guy like Duncan(who I guess probably works about 3 hrs a day, team practices aside, which I guess is also how much Kareem worked), and we say, okay, he's a hard worker, but then you have a guy like Kobe, who probably works 9 hrs a day, so now you have a whole new different definition of work ethic. By that standard, you can say that Kareem didn't work hard enough, without saying that he was lazy(and really, 3 hrs a day, in addition to team practices, is no joke.)

As far as his longevity, even though he was a big, he was 240 lbs, not too surprising that he lasted that long. So actually, by not pushing himself too much, i.e putting on weight, that actually preserved his career. However, that meant that his numbers at his prime weren't as good as they should have been.


If you've heard the Showtime Lakers and their characterization of Pat Riley, they worked hard on and off the court. Everyone had an off season workout regimen. And Kareem hit the weights later in his career. He showed up to camp at 275 lbs of added muscle in 1987 I believe.

What's the evidence that he was not serious about getting ready for optimum performance? I'm not sure where you're getting that?
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LakerLogic
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:27 pm    Post subject:

at Kareem not working hard.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:11 pm    Post subject:

I don't think it's really fair comparing Bynum to the greatest center of all time.

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