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sonic the laker
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2022 8:27 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
sonic the laker wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
sonic the laker wrote:
Personally, I think this has less to do with spoiled management, and more to do with a spoiled fandom. Why do some people believe that the Lakers are somehow due never-ending great basketball? Perpetual title contention? A FO that never makes mistakes? If people have these unrealistic expectations, that's not ownership's fault. It's not the GM's fault. It's not the coach's, or player's, fault.


That's a weird comment, really. I guess the "Blame the Fans" angle is inevitable, even if it is really just a way of patting yourself on the back and casting yourself as the voice of reason. But in the specific context of the Lakers, this is a truly delusional way of looking at things.

The Lakers are the marquee franchise in the NBA and one of the top sports brands in the world. The Lakers have the largest fan base in the NBA by a wide margin. The Lakers charge a ton for their tickets and have a multi-billion dollar cable deal. Jeanie and the whole organization are drunk on the idea of Lakers Exceptionalism.

Gosh, why would anyone have high expectations for a team like that? What in the world has gotten into this ignorant mass of spoiled fans? What do they expect? A well run team? Bah. They should follow the example of Knicks fans and accept what they're given.

Sure, there's no divine right to championships. But if the front office drives the franchise into a ditch -- which is what has happened -- that is a colossal cluster F. This is a commercial entertainment production that has been mismanaged to the point that it isn't even very entertaining. But they aren't cutting ticket prices, discounting merchandise, or lowering their cable fees. They're marketing a Bugatti and delivering a Chevrolet.

So you want to blame the fans for having unrealistic expectations. Okay. Maybe it makes you feel smart and superior to say that. In fact, you're just wrong. The whole marketing and conception of the franchise is based on being superior. If you think the Lakers are judged by the same standards as the Sacramento Kings, I just don't know what to tell you.

So this brings us to your specific statement: "If people have these unrealistic expectations, that's not ownership's fault." If you really think that this is true, you are delusional. The Buss family has spent over 40 years encouraging and even marketing these expectations.


It's your comment I find weird, in truth. Not sure where I blamed the fans for anything. I even specifically stated that I understood fans frustrations, and need to vent. Critique is cool. Baseless name calling, and such, has nothing to do with sports. Granted it can be funny in small doses. Also, my commentary was not given from a place of perceived superiority. It was actually a legit cry for civility. Not sure why you seem to want to turn it into something adversarial. Because being reasonable is odd now, I guess. Civility=Superiority, apparently. Ok. You got me.

And, your last point befuddles me. Because the Lakers are marketed/conceptualized/branded as being superior, this automatically makes it a reality/true? That's what businesses do. It has nothing to do with truth, and more to do with trying to create a profitable image. But, image does not equate to success. I'm not gonna blame a businessperson for trying to make money. But, if people are unsatisfied with the product, if you really want to see change, stop buying those expensive ass tickets to see the games. Season ticket holders should cancel their accounts. In this world, sadly, money makes people move. Not juvenile name calling...cathartic though it may be.

But, it's whatever. People are going to do what they do. It is what it is.


See the boldfaced language in your original post. Yes, you blamed the fans.

If you can't handle name calling and overreaction by sports fans, you need to stay off social media. In fact, you probably need to stay away from pretty much everything. Or I guess you can buy a badge engraved with "Civility Cop" so you can go to games and chastise people for being upset about their team.


For someone who's complaining about me being thin-skinned, you sure seem to be caught up in your feelings. And, yep, I remember that bolded part, since I wrote it. But, thanks for the reminder. Also, while trying to be smart, you're still wrong. Calling our fanbase spoiled...which it is...has nothing to do with allocating blame. My comment was referencing our attitude leading to unrealistic expectations, which leads to unnecessary toxicity. Kinda like what you're doing right now. Appreciate the helpful illustration, friendo.

I'm an adult, and I can deal with a lot. I'm also a Laker fan. So, I'm here for the long haul. However, if you could make me that badge you talked about, and bedazzle it, that would be great. Thanks!
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2022 5:19 am    Post subject:

sonic the laker wrote:
For someone who's complaining about me being thin-skinned, you sure seem to be caught up in your feelings.


Now you're just trying to turn the tables in a futile effort to save face. Nope, not happening.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2022 7:38 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
sonic the laker wrote:
For someone who's complaining about me being thin-skinned, you sure seem to be caught up in your feelings.


Now you're just trying to turn the tables in a futile effort to save face. Nope, not happening.



And, now you're just trying to turn the tables in a futile effort to save yourself from honoring your word, by making me that badge. Nope, not happening.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2022 12:22 pm    Post subject:

kfkilla wrote:
PICKnPOP wrote:
Imo they have two options at this point: go all in or blow it all up.

There is no reason to be patient now. You haven’t been patient since you took over the team. Just one emotional decision after another. No real plan or vision.


You might have 20 years left, but I don’t. I rather enjoy watching the Lakers compete night in and night out before the final curtain. The thought of the Lakers sucking for 20 years well, I just will forget about them and find another passion. That’s insane. Even if by some act of god it does end a ring. One ring and being a trash can for 20 years is not my style at all. F that noise.


No one is guaranteed tomorrow. There will always be a sense of urgency to win from any true fan. The concept of waiting and waiting is a corruption to Laker Nation, as well as it should be. Some NBA teams, like the Phoenix Suns, Sacramento Kings, Atlanta Hawks, and NY Knicks have gone over 50 years without ever winning a Ring. That's nearly a lifetime for some people. We in Lakerland had to wait 10 years for latest one. The prospect of us not winning again for decades is not only scary, but some of our older members may never see the Lakers win again while they have life on this earth.

So, yeah, urgency is there. Waiting is not an option.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2022 12:47 pm    Post subject:

Older Lakers fans are probably a little spoiled, but you also have to take it all in context.

The rebuild a decade ago, was to be expected. Kobe was getting older, and then had a devasting injury. Pau was already showing signs of age. They gave up a lot for Nash and Howard, to lose Howard that summer, and never truly get a healthy Nash. There was no avoiding that. That's acceptable.

They had some luck though, they got some high picks, drafted pretty well. And found themselves with a team that wasn't winning games, but which contained a ton of young, moveable assets. They went all in on AD and Lebron and it paid off with a title.

Fans have a right to be upset though by what has happened since then. I don't fault them for 2021. All the one year deals, and a title, led some players to seek to cash in off that (Rondo, Bradley), and they were wise not to pay it. They brought them both back on minimums a year later, and they were done. Lakers fans drove Green out of town. But they on paper seemed to improve their roster, but health was not on their side.

The past two summers though have been disastrous. The only good moves they have made during that time, have been guys on one year deals, who they will almost certainly seek to cash in if they have a good season. And with ownerships refusal to pay them, they are just creating a revolving door of mercenaries. They've paid little attention to roster balance. Overloaded with small players. Last season they overloaded on shooters, who could not defend, and over the hill veterans. This season they got younger, and more athletic, but are the worst shooting team in the NBA. The stockpile of assets which they had in 2018 is now gone, where their only tradeable assets have been primarily seen as expiring contracts.

Fans have a right to be disappointed with that. Because what is staring the Lakers in the face, is a 3-10 roster. And it isn't surprisingly so. As Chick would say, you could read it in braille. Yet the front office refused to do what needed to be done leading into the season. The reality is that they have accepted putting a bad product on the court, to save them money. I think Lakers fans could accept that, if there were a clear direction. If they are done contending with this team, they should have blown the team up. They should be looking to get as many assets as they can for their stars, to shorten the next rebuild.

If they think this team can contend, then they should be doing as they promised Lebron this summer, and doing everything in their power to put together a contending team. They haven't done that neither. Their big off season was trading THT and Johnson for Beverley, which was a lateral move, at best. More realistically, it was a cost cutting move for next summer.

Meanwhile, they are trying to appease to fans by promising cap space next summer, but it's not enough to sign the top players next summer. And in order to get to $30m they'd have to pretty much everyone other than Lebron, AD, Christie, and Jones (who has a player option). You'd basically be swapping out Russ for Turner, Russell, or Grant in your best case scenarios, and then building the rest of your team on minimum salaries or the MLE again. But you'd be doing that with a year older Lebron and AD. It's a bad plan.

This has nothing to do with expecting the Lakers to win a title every year. It has to do with expecting the front office to be competent. To have a viable game plan to put a quality team on the court. If not now, then in the hopefully near future.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2022 12:55 pm    Post subject:

Well put JC Smith.

Under West, the Mitch, you didn't worry about sheer incompetence, the likes of which we've been seeing from Rob. We've been spoiled to have really good front office leadership up until basically the mid 2010s.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2022 1:31 pm    Post subject:

I’m just going to leave this here in reference to fam expectations that was brought up by @AH & @JC towards @sonic.

Quote:
“I think that we feel like the roster we had this year was a championship-caliber roster and obviously there were a lot of things that came into the mix that weren’t within our control that kept us from winning a championship.

That has to be the goal every year and the only way to get there is with hard work,” Pelinka said. “So of course we’ll learn from this season and from how the roster was constructed and we’ll apply that wisdom and experiences to what we do going forward. But the recipe is gonna be hard work and diving back into the process and really after today and the exit interviews, that work starts. We have an insatiable desire and passion to bring banner No. 18 here and we’re excited about the work we’re gonna commence tomorrow to get that done for our fans and for the organization.”


Insatiable? More like, we sat in bullsh…shame on us for having these expectations.

Wasn’t it Jeanie who wanted to run the Lakers the way her father did? How’d that go again?…something like missing the playoffs only twice in the 34 years under his reign. However, since then, it’s been 7 more times wothout the playoffs with COVID raining on our 1 parade.

Home girl, you wanna honor his legacy, this can’t be the way, can it? Hulu and a 4 year extension to your bugaboo most definitely ain’t the way.

They already botched Kob’s twilight, now they doing the same to Bron. But we need to temper expectations, right? Man, nah! Can’t do it…won’t do it!

https://youtu.be/Wew87hCKeRo
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2022 3:19 pm    Post subject:

J.C. Smith wrote:
Older Lakers fans are probably a little spoiled, but you also have to take it all in context.

The rebuild a decade ago, was to be expected. Kobe was getting older, and then had a devasting injury. Pau was already showing signs of age. They gave up a lot for Nash and Howard, to lose Howard that summer, and never truly get a healthy Nash. There was no avoiding that. That's acceptable.

They had some luck though, they got some high picks, drafted pretty well. And found themselves with a team that wasn't winning games, but which contained a ton of young, moveable assets. They went all in on AD and Lebron and it paid off with a title.

Fans have a right to be upset though by what has happened since then. I don't fault them for 2021. All the one year deals, and a title, led some players to seek to cash in off that (Rondo, Bradley), and they were wise not to pay it. They brought them both back on minimums a year later, and they were done. Lakers fans drove Green out of town. But they on paper seemed to improve their roster, but health was not on their side.

The past two summers though have been disastrous. The only good moves they have made during that time, have been guys on one year deals, who they will almost certainly seek to cash in if they have a good season. And with ownerships refusal to pay them, they are just creating a revolving door of mercenaries. They've paid little attention to roster balance. Overloaded with small players. Last season they overloaded on shooters, who could not defend, and over the hill veterans. This season they got younger, and more athletic, but are the worst shooting team in the NBA. The stockpile of assets which they had in 2018 is now gone, where their only tradeable assets have been primarily seen as expiring contracts.

Fans have a right to be disappointed with that. Because what is staring the Lakers in the face, is a 3-10 roster. And it isn't surprisingly so. As Chick would say, you could read it in braille. Yet the front office refused to do what needed to be done leading into the season. The reality is that they have accepted putting a bad product on the court, to save them money. I think Lakers fans could accept that, if there were a clear direction. If they are done contending with this team, they should have blown the team up. They should be looking to get as many assets as they can for their stars, to shorten the next rebuild.

If they think this team can contend, then they should be doing as they promised Lebron this summer, and doing everything in their power to put together a contending team. They haven't done that neither. Their big off season was trading THT and Johnson for Beverley, which was a lateral move, at best. More realistically, it was a cost cutting move for next summer.

Meanwhile, they are trying to appease to fans by promising cap space next summer, but it's not enough to sign the top players next summer. And in order to get to $30m they'd have to pretty much everyone other than Lebron, AD, Christie, and Jones (who has a player option). You'd basically be swapping out Russ for Turner, Russell, or Grant in your best case scenarios, and then building the rest of your team on minimum salaries or the MLE again. But you'd be doing that with a year older Lebron and AD. It's a bad plan.

This has nothing to do with expecting the Lakers to win a title every year. It has to do with expecting the front office to be competent. To have a viable game plan to put a quality team on the court. If not now, then in the hopefully near future.


I appreciate your well thought out post. As you stated the Kobe/Nash/Howard trio was highly regarded on paper. Highly unfortunate on court. Ish happens.

As for our former young core, I looked at them as more than just potential assets, even though that's ultimately what they were treated as. The decision to go all in and overpay(imo) for AD always bothered me. Waiting just another year, after which you could have signed AD without giving up anything, while keeping your young players and having the option to keep or trade them, would have ensured the Lakers a deep team for years to come. Eh. Que sera, sera... A title, yes. But, a catalyst for the failures to follow.

The 2020 championship team was a case of everything going the Lakers way, at the right time. An early mistake by the FO was the decision to make a play for Kawhi, while the free agent market dried up around them. They had to slap a team together, that didn't look good on paper. But, that team outperformed people's predictions. While the team was a horrible half court offensive team (last in the league in efficiency, I believe), they were incredible on defense. Defense which they turned into offense. This kind of team was right up Vogel's alley. This team won a title. But, everyone knew it had flaws which had to be addressed.

The 2020-2021 team looked MUCH better,, on paper. The only move that raised concern was replacing Dwight/McGee, with Gasol/Harrell. But, this team had a far rosier outlook to start the season, than their predecessor. A good mix of players with both offense and defense. And, in the beginning (buoyed by red hot shooting), things were looking great. Then injuries to LeBron/AD hit...that hot shooting turned ice cold...Lakers starting losing. Badly. The team was still good defensive team, credit to Vogel. But, it was clear that he had no idea what to do with a team, on offense, without LeBron/AD. I actually liked this team, and would have liked them to get another chance, with their stars healthy, and only a few minor changes (Schroder, Harrell, Gasol). But, that's not what happened...

Enter the 2021-2022 team. Another full roster revamp, with major controversy. Russell Westbrook...along with a team full of old former greats; headlined by the likes of Melo, Deandre Jordan, Ariza, Bradley, Rondo, and Dwight. This team, while full of experienced players, was criticized as being too old. Unfortunately, the critics were proven right. Experience was no substitute for effort, and energy. It did not help that LeBron and AD were injured...for a second season in a row.

Now, on to Russ. The move to acquire him was straight out of left field, and flew in the face of the kind of player one would pair with LeBron. As a matter of fact, Laker Nation was expecting news regarding either Hield or DeRozan. These were the two players that new was getting hot around, with talks ramping up. So, where did Russ come from? According to reports, while the Lakers were busy with Hield/DeRozan talks, LeBron and AD had been having discussions with Westbrook about teaming up. Then, before the Lakers could pull a trade for the aforementioned players, our stars campaigned for the team to trade for Russ. This was a mistake...one of many...that was made. By both the stars, and our FO. Though you can see the logic of surrounding LeBron/AD with experienced players who don't need to rely on them, the age and disposition of the vets was too much to overcome. Even if the team was fully healthy. Bad decisions all around. Oh yeah, and Vogel...lol

Which brings us to the present. The 2022-2023 season. Another all new team. With only 4 returning players in LeBron, AD, Austin, and Russ. (Wenyen, too. But, he only came on at the tail end of the previous season. So...) Also, a brand new head coach and coaching staff. It's still too early to see what this team can/will do. I am excited for young guys like Austin, Walker, and Christie.

I was all for the Lakers going full reset, during the 2021 offseason, before we formed the geriatric squad. I could tell that AD, while great, was not consistent (or healthy) enough to lead a team as the no.1 option. I could also see LeBron's incremental decline. But, I can understand how that's easier said than done. Especially with a rabid, impatient fanbase like ours. Also, how do you move a player like LeBron, if he doesn't want to be moved? That said, I can also understand the FO's position of really treasuring those first round picks. If you trade those, the resultant move better hit. Because, the team would have no more tradeable picks till 2031. At this point there are no quick easy answers. So, until you know what you're working with, making quick desperate moves would only dig you deeper into long term mediocrity...at best.

And, I think that's what I would like to see from us fans. Yeah, there's a lot of blame to go around for how we ended up here. But, here we are. Imo, the best thing to do is have patience, before making any more drastic moves that could jeopardize the teams future, resulting in fans gnashing their teeth even more.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2022 4:03 pm    Post subject:

J.C. Smith wrote:
Older Lakers fans are probably a little spoiled, but you also have to take it all in context.

The rebuild a decade ago, was to be expected. Kobe was getting older, and then had a devasting injury. Pau was already showing signs of age. They gave up a lot for Nash and Howard, to lose Howard that summer, and never truly get a healthy Nash. There was no avoiding that. That's acceptable.

They had some luck though, they got some high picks, drafted pretty well. And found themselves with a team that wasn't winning games, but which contained a ton of young, moveable assets. They went all in on AD and Lebron and it paid off with a title.

Fans have a right to be upset though by what has happened since then. I don't fault them for 2021. All the one year deals, and a title, led some players to seek to cash in off that (Rondo, Bradley), and they were wise not to pay it. They brought them both back on minimums a year later, and they were done. Lakers fans drove Green out of town. But they on paper seemed to improve their roster, but health was not on their side.

The past two summers though have been disastrous. The only good moves they have made during that time, have been guys on one year deals, who they will almost certainly seek to cash in if they have a good season. And with ownerships refusal to pay them, they are just creating a revolving door of mercenaries. They've paid little attention to roster balance. Overloaded with small players. Last season they overloaded on shooters, who could not defend, and over the hill veterans. This season they got younger, and more athletic, but are the worst shooting team in the NBA. The stockpile of assets which they had in 2018 is now gone, where their only tradeable assets have been primarily seen as expiring contracts.

Fans have a right to be disappointed with that. Because what is staring the Lakers in the face, is a 3-10 roster. And it isn't surprisingly so. As Chick would say, you could read it in braille. Yet the front office refused to do what needed to be done leading into the season. The reality is that they have accepted putting a bad product on the court, to save them money. I think Lakers fans could accept that, if there were a clear direction. If they are done contending with this team, they should have blown the team up. They should be looking to get as many assets as they can for their stars, to shorten the next rebuild.

If they think this team can contend, then they should be doing as they promised Lebron this summer, and doing everything in their power to put together a contending team. They haven't done that neither. Their big off season was trading THT and Johnson for Beverley, which was a lateral move, at best. More realistically, it was a cost cutting move for next summer.

Meanwhile, they are trying to appease to fans by promising cap space next summer, but it's not enough to sign the top players next summer. And in order to get to $30m they'd have to pretty much everyone other than Lebron, AD, Christie, and Jones (who has a player option). You'd basically be swapping out Russ for Turner, Russell, or Grant in your best case scenarios, and then building the rest of your team on minimum salaries or the MLE again. But you'd be doing that with a year older Lebron and AD. It's a bad plan.

This has nothing to do with expecting the Lakers to win a title every year. It has to do with expecting the front office to be competent. To have a viable game plan to put a quality team on the court. If not now, then in the hopefully near future.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2022 4:07 pm    Post subject:

J.C. Smith wrote:
Older Lakers fans are probably a little spoiled, but you also have to take it all in context.

The rebuild a decade ago, was to be expected. Kobe was getting older, and then had a devasting injury. Pau was already showing signs of age. They gave up a lot for Nash and Howard, to lose Howard that summer, and never truly get a healthy Nash. There was no avoiding that. That's acceptable.

They had some luck though, they got some high picks, drafted pretty well. And found themselves with a team that wasn't winning games, but which contained a ton of young, moveable assets. They went all in on AD and Lebron and it paid off with a title.

Fans have a right to be upset though by what has happened since then. I don't fault them for 2021. All the one year deals, and a title, led some players to seek to cash in off that (Rondo, Bradley), and they were wise not to pay it. They brought them both back on minimums a year later, and they were done. Lakers fans drove Green out of town. But they on paper seemed to improve their roster, but health was not on their side.

The past two summers though have been disastrous. The only good moves they have made during that time, have been guys on one year deals, who they will almost certainly seek to cash in if they have a good season. And with ownerships refusal to pay them, they are just creating a revolving door of mercenaries. They've paid little attention to roster balance. Overloaded with small players. Last season they overloaded on shooters, who could not defend, and over the hill veterans. This season they got younger, and more athletic, but are the worst shooting team in the NBA. The stockpile of assets which they had in 2018 is now gone, where their only tradeable assets have been primarily seen as expiring contracts.

Fans have a right to be disappointed with that. Because what is staring the Lakers in the face, is a 3-10 roster. And it isn't surprisingly so. As Chick would say, you could read it in braille. Yet the front office refused to do what needed to be done leading into the season. The reality is that they have accepted putting a bad product on the court, to save them money. I think Lakers fans could accept that, if there were a clear direction. If they are done contending with this team, they should have blown the team up. They should be looking to get as many assets as they can for their stars, to shorten the next rebuild.

If they think this team can contend, then they should be doing as they promised Lebron this summer, and doing everything in their power to put together a contending team. They haven't done that neither. Their big off season was trading THT and Johnson for Beverley, which was a lateral move, at best. More realistically, it was a cost cutting move for next summer.

Meanwhile, they are trying to appease to fans by promising cap space next summer, but it's not enough to sign the top players next summer. And in order to get to $30m they'd have to pretty much everyone other than Lebron, AD, Christie, and Jones (who has a player option). You'd basically be swapping out Russ for Turner, Russell, or Grant in your best case scenarios, and then building the rest of your team on minimum salaries or the MLE again. But you'd be doing that with a year older Lebron and AD. It's a bad plan.

This has nothing to do with expecting the Lakers to win a title every year. It has to do with expecting the front office to be competent. To have a viable game plan to put a quality team on the court. If not now, then in the hopefully near future.


Agree.

We expect the FO to be competent.

The people in the FO are inept.

Thank god, we won that championship in 2020. It is not going to happen again because they are idiots.

Just look at the moves through the years.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2022 8:56 pm    Post subject:

sonic the laker wrote:
As for our former young core, I looked at them as more than just potential assets, even though that's ultimately what they were treated as. The decision to go all in and overpay(imo) for AD always bothered me. Waiting just another year, after which you could have signed AD without giving up anything, while keeping your young players and having the option to keep or trade them, would have ensured the Lakers a deep team for years to come. Eh. Que sera, sera... A title, yes. But, a catalyst for the failures to follow.


I would have loved to see them keep Randle and Ingram. Randle because they let him go for nothing, and Ingram because of his potential. I get the trade though. Ingram didn't click well with Lebron until right before his blood clot issues. Right before then though he was on fire. I'm sure they would have liked to hold on to Ingram, but there was likely no way the Pelicans make the move without him being included.

Sure, they could have tried to sign AD in free agency. They were under pressure though. AD was available, and wanted to be a Laker. And they had just gone 37-45 in their first season with Lebron, they couldn't have another bad season. They also were hoping to entice Kawhi to join the Lakers, and likely felt that with AD in place, it made them a more attractive destination for him. Could they maybe have gotten a better deal by playing hardball? Maybe. But the Celtics were also after him. I get where they were coming from.

In the end it netted a title, so I'd consider it a success. It unfortunately, looks like it may have been a one and done.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2022 9:24 pm    Post subject:

JC with a very reasonable post on what we are going through. His mentioning bringing in Dwight and Nash struck a chord. We have Lebron and AD aging with both beyond their primes (Kobe and Pau). Like Pau then, AD isn’t done but their best days were (are) in the rear view mirror. We add Nash (Westbrook) who is supposed to make a big 3 but it doesn’t work out. We add Dwight (potentially Turner) who is like geared to be the man but he was overshadowed. Dwight walked like I believe that Turner likely would. We had to wait out the contracts of Kobe, Pau and Nash before we could properly begin a rebuild. Likewise I think that we wait until Lebron, AD and Westbrook are off the books. Only Jeanie didn’t have the patience then even when she could blame Jim, I’m afraid that she will show little patience when her butt is on the line.
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Len
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2022 9:51 pm    Post subject:

Remember the "Lakers Reloaded" campaign that started when Payton and Malone were signed? I still have the free fan postercard from that season.

It seems reload is the front office's approach instead of rebuild, and all the moves to surround Kobe's and Lebron's older years with whatever talent fits the league's meta indicates such.

I was hoping for a proper rebuild with the Baby Lakers, as that really is the only way to create a dynasty and I wasn't happy with signing LeBron or trading for AD. I get more entertainment by investing in a young team and watching them grow into contenders, than watching the stars align for an opportunity to win in a fleeting moment.

But the Buss children are trying to fill giant shoes and they seem to put more pressure on themselves which contaminates their decision-making: Jim saying he would step down if the Lakers weren't contenders in a few years; Jeannie, via Pelinka, saying the team is dedicated to winning title 18 before Boston.

2020's title was nice, but it wasn't satisfying. And this insatiable need for more is what is driving many Laker fans crazy. There needs to be an understanding on the differences between a rebuild and a reload/reset. Especially a recalibration on the potential outcomes for each method.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2022 6:39 am    Post subject:

Len wrote:
Remember the "Lakers Reloaded" campaign that started when Payton and Malone were signed? I still have the free fan postercard from that season.

It seems reload is the front office's approach instead of rebuild, and all the moves to surround Kobe's and Lebron's older years with whatever talent fits the league's meta indicates such.

I was hoping for a proper rebuild with the Baby Lakers, as that really is the only way to create a dynasty and I wasn't happy with signing LeBron or trading for AD. I get more entertainment by investing in a young team and watching them grow into contenders, than watching the stars align for an opportunity to win in a fleeting moment.

But the Buss children are trying to fill giant shoes and they seem to put more pressure on themselves which contaminates their decision-making: Jim saying he would step down if the Lakers weren't contenders in a few years; Jeannie, via Pelinka, saying the team is dedicated to winning title 18 before Boston.

2020's title was nice, but it wasn't satisfying. And this insatiable need for more is what is driving many Laker fans crazy. There needs to be an understanding on the differences between a rebuild and a reload/reset. Especially a recalibration on the potential outcomes for each method.


Word. Well said.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2022 7:42 am    Post subject:

Len wrote:
I was hoping for a proper rebuild with the Baby Lakers, as that really is the only way to create a dynasty and I wasn't happy with signing LeBron or trading for AD. I get more entertainment by investing in a young team and watching them grow into contenders, than watching the stars align for an opportunity to win in a fleeting moment.


I was never comfortable with becoming the latest franchise for Team Lebron. I did not find the title in the bubble as satisfying as some people. I was critical of the front office back when a few people were declaring Pelinka to be a genius. In general, I've been uneasy with the direction of the franchise going back to around 2012, when we kept trying to come up with quick fixes to win with Kobe, even though he was in decline due to age and injuries.

Having said that, people were losing their minds during the Mitch/Jim rebuild. This contributed to the artificial deadlines, the Mozgov/Deng debacle, and Jeanie's coup. Jeanie and a large portion of the fanbase are still drunk on Lakers Exceptionalism. For better or worse, this is at the core of the identity of the franchise.

Elsewhere, we've discussed the obsession within Laker Nation with the Celtics rivalry and the number of titles. I find it sort of quaint, but I understand that this is an essential element of fanhood for an awful lot of people. If title #17 was really that important to you because you perceive us as being in a death race with the Celtics, then you aren't going to have the patience for a conventional rebuild.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2022 7:53 am    Post subject:

J.C. Smith wrote:
sonic the laker wrote:
As for our former young core, I looked at them as more than just potential assets, even though that's ultimately what they were treated as. The decision to go all in and overpay(imo) for AD always bothered me. Waiting just another year, after which you could have signed AD without giving up anything, while keeping your young players and having the option to keep or trade them, would have ensured the Lakers a deep team for years to come. Eh. Que sera, sera... A title, yes. But, a catalyst for the failures to follow.


I would have loved to see them keep Randle and Ingram. Randle because they let him go for nothing, and Ingram because of his potential. I get the trade though. Ingram didn't click well with Lebron until right before his blood clot issues. Right before then though he was on fire. I'm sure they would have liked to hold on to Ingram, but there was likely no way the Pelicans make the move without him being included.

Sure, they could have tried to sign AD in free agency. They were under pressure though. AD was available, and wanted to be a Laker. And they had just gone 37-45 in their first season with Lebron, they couldn't have another bad season. They also were hoping to entice Kawhi to join the Lakers, and likely felt that with AD in place, it made them a more attractive destination for him. Could they maybe have gotten a better deal by playing hardball? Maybe. But the Celtics were also after him. I get where they were coming from.

In the end it netted a title, so I'd consider it a success. It unfortunately, looks like it may have been a one and done.


Lakers may have feared another PG13 situation, where he openly said he was upset the Lakers didn't trade for him when he was on the Pacers (I don't know how that makes sense, but it is what he said). So maybe they feared AD may not sign as a FA and go elsewhere. Who knows.

But for me, it's not necessarily about the AD trade. It's our team post 2021 season. Why blow it up so dramatically for Russ, and the ongoing situation this season? The answer is this front office will consistently go for an outdated and expensive plan of trying to get 3 max superstars. I think that's what they're waiting for now, that they think Russ/2 FRPs will be enough to pry a bona fide superstar (it is not).
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Len
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2022 10:24 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
I was never comfortable with becoming the latest franchise for Team Lebron. I did not find the title in the bubble as satisfying as some people. I was critical of the front office back when a few people were declaring Pelinka to be a genius. In general, I've been uneasy with the direction of the franchise going back to around 2012, when we kept trying to come up with quick fixes to win with Kobe, even though he was in decline due to age and injuries.


The bubble title feels hollow because we recognize it for what is was: A Puncher's Chance, instead of what we crave: The Hero's Journey.

It's not a fluke that our home-grown stars are more beloved than those acquired by trade or signed in free agency.

This season's ring ceremony for GSW featured a video which I hope resonates in the Laker's Front Office as a reminder of how the League's desire and designs for Team Parity has made the Laker's way of doing things defunct.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2022 11:32 am    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
JC with a very reasonable post on what we are going through. His mentioning bringing in Dwight and Nash struck a chord. We have Lebron and AD aging with both beyond their primes (Kobe and Pau). Like Pau then, AD isn’t done but their best days were (are) in the rear view mirror. We add Nash (Westbrook) who is supposed to make a big 3 but it doesn’t work out. We add Dwight (potentially Turner) who is like geared to be the man but he was overshadowed. Dwight walked like I believe that Turner likely would. We had to wait out the contracts of Kobe, Pau and Nash before we could properly begin a rebuild. Likewise I think that we wait until Lebron, AD and Westbrook are off the books. Only Jeanie didn’t have the patience then even when she could blame Jim, I’m afraid that she will show little patience when her butt is on the line.


Mannnn!!! That is a good comparison and I understand where you are coming from...some of it makes sense. The part I have a problem with is "wait" doesn't just mean waiting in the dismissive un-harmful way it is used. "Wait" in the context means losing at an embarrassing disgraceful way...it's just not worth it to me to accept that. I prefer to take a chance on winning even if it fails I want to try...and even in their current form I believe that with AD/LBJ there is a move somewhere...somehow...that may work. Sure it might not...but there is a chance that it would. I want t take that chance over accepting going throuh a losing period of several years right now.

I respect that your opinion may be different...It might be right...there may not be a solution that turns out good for us no matter what we do and we could possibly make it worse by trying to win with a futile effort.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2022 4:29 pm    Post subject:

Len wrote:
The bubble title feels hollow because we recognize it for what is was: A Puncher's Chance, instead of what we crave: The Hero's Journey.


That's a good way of putting it. I respect people who feel differently, but the title in the bubble left me sort of flat.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2022 7:38 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Len wrote:
The bubble title feels hollow because we recognize it for what is was: A Puncher's Chance, instead of what we crave: The Hero's Journey.


That's a good way of putting it. I respect people who feel differently, but the title in the bubble left me sort of flat.


I would like to have another puncher's chance instead of a loser's journey lol!
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2022 10:27 pm    Post subject:

Len wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
I was never comfortable with becoming the latest franchise for Team Lebron. I did not find the title in the bubble as satisfying as some people. I was critical of the front office back when a few people were declaring Pelinka to be a genius. In general, I've been uneasy with the direction of the franchise going back to around 2012, when we kept trying to come up with quick fixes to win with Kobe, even though he was in decline due to age and injuries.


The bubble title feels hollow because we recognize it for what is was: A Puncher's Chance, instead of what we crave: The Hero's Journey.

It's not a fluke that our home-grown stars are more beloved than those acquired by trade or signed in free agency.

This season's ring ceremony for GSW featured a video which I hope resonates in the Laker's Front Office as a reminder of how the League's desire and designs for Team Parity has made the Laker's way of doing things defunct.



That title was less significant to me for a few different reasons. First, that was in the dark days of covid. The lakers, the nba, and basketball were really trivial to me compared to everything that was going on. I enjoyed the Lakers winning the title but the Lakers and basketball were about 999th on the list of things I was thinking about so I didn't particularly care about the team winning the title.

Second, the team fell apart so quickly after winning the title that there wasn't much basking in its aftermath. Now, only 3 years later, it feels like a very distant event.

Third, we all realized that any team led by Lebron is a team of mercenaries. I don't think that's actually unusual. It's just that Lebron makes no pretense about that fact so we can't pretend that the Lebron and company are "our guys." The illusion that the players care about the fans in the stands is one of the fun things about being a fan, and LeBron doesn't provide that illusion.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2022 1:20 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
Len wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
I was never comfortable with becoming the latest franchise for Team Lebron. I did not find the title in the bubble as satisfying as some people. I was critical of the front office back when a few people were declaring Pelinka to be a genius. In general, I've been uneasy with the direction of the franchise going back to around 2012, when we kept trying to come up with quick fixes to win with Kobe, even though he was in decline due to age and injuries.


The bubble title feels hollow because we recognize it for what is was: A Puncher's Chance, instead of what we crave: The Hero's Journey.

It's not a fluke that our home-grown stars are more beloved than those acquired by trade or signed in free agency.

This season's ring ceremony for GSW featured a video which I hope resonates in the Laker's Front Office as a reminder of how the League's desire and designs for Team Parity has made the Laker's way of doing things defunct.



That title was less significant to me for a few different reasons. First, that was in the dark days of covid. The lakers, the nba, and basketball were really trivial to me compared to everything that was going on. I enjoyed the Lakers winning the title but the Lakers and basketball were about 999th on the list of things I was thinking about so I didn't particularly care about the team winning the title.

Second, the team fell apart so quickly after winning the title that there wasn't much basking in its aftermath. Now, only 3 years later, it feels like a very distant event.

Third, we all realized that any team led by Lebron is a team of mercenaries. I don't think that's actually unusual. It's just that Lebron makes no pretense about that fact so we can't pretend that the Lebron and company are "our guys." The illusion that the players care about the fans in the stands is one of the fun things about being a fan, and LeBron doesn't provide that illusion.

Actually, it was just 2 years ago
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