Official RUSSELL WESTBROOK Thread (Traded to Utah)
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 345, 346, 347 ... 424, 425, 426  Next
 
Post new topic    LakersGround.net Forum Index -> General Basketball Discussion Reply to topic
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
epic_
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 23 Jan 2020
Posts: 11310

PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2022 7:17 am    Post subject:

Keep working on your screening, Russ!
_________________
💜💛 🏆 👀 🍖 #18!!!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
LakerSD
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 10 Nov 2016
Posts: 23731

PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:24 pm    Post subject:

I like how they are treating Russ in the media.

The consistent message is he’s supposed be a team player with role of defense first and on offense be at the corner 3 or dunker’s spot.

They are basically sending the message Russ is welcome if he follows what is asked and Russ having the ego he does…it’s eating at him. Basically, they made it where he wants out because Russ wants to be Russ lol.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Inspector Gadget
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 18 Apr 2016
Posts: 46492

PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2022 8:44 pm    Post subject:

I would love for the Westbrook experiment to work but the reality is.. it’s not lol even his agent told the public that Westbrook isn’t willing to accept and adapt to the Lakers which is why there is talk that the Lakers have a deadline to trade Westbrook, the marriage is over.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
venturalakersfan
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 14 Apr 2001
Posts: 144432
Location: The Gold Coast

PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:34 am    Post subject:

It takes two to tango and no one wants Westbrook.
_________________
RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
wolfpaclaker
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 58318

PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2022 12:01 pm    Post subject:

LakerSD wrote:
I like how they are treating Russ in the media.

The consistent message is he’s supposed be a team player with role of defense first and on offense be at the corner 3 or dunker’s spot.

They are basically sending the message Russ is welcome if he follows what is asked and Russ having the ego he does…it’s eating at him. Basically, they made it where he wants out because Russ wants to be Russ lol.

Agree that was part of why they went to Ham over Vogel. Vogel didn't have the personality to coach through the media and let the media know WB would need to play a certain way. He's not cut that way. Ham has already been very much a talker in the media in the sense where he's reflecting what he wants from WB.

For the Lakers the issue remains:

47M of salary is tied into WB. They are better off with WB than without. They have not enough firepower with AD/Bron + vet min role guys. Not unless Reaves, THT and a guy like Nunn come in and have big seasons.

Lets see how it plays out but if we had depth or 2-3 starters that could hold their own around AD/Bron, we could use the do it our way or bench strategy. I am not sure we have the depth to go with this attitude and WB knows it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Reply with quote
PenG_
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 01 Feb 2020
Posts: 10387

PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2022 2:14 am    Post subject:

Ah yes, cause defenders are really interested in Russ behind the arc...

https://twitter.com/TheWestbrookEra/status/1557799594007871488
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
JUST-MING
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 43951

PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2022 6:18 am    Post subject:

PenG_ wrote:
Ah yes, cause defenders are really interested in Russ behind the arc...


Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
wolfpaclaker
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 58318

PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2022 6:28 am    Post subject:

The issue I have with this coaching plan, how many players in the league are much better at shooting 3 pointers, setting screens and defending, than Russ, at his position? Why would we want to trade 45M of contracts like Kuz, KCP, Caruso+Trez (and a FRP) only to end up making WB a 3nD guy? Like the entire plan makes me cringe. Even if WB buys in, you're not going to even get KCP level 3nD play or Caruso level off the ball and defensive energy.

I fully believe Vogel had it right, he tried to get the team to play small, he tried to get WB going. But with the injuries and lack of young active legs around WB, the team just never got going. The FO would put it all on Vogel and WB, while taking no accountabilty for the fact that AD missed most of the season, Lebron took breaks everytime he was on a good flow (And LONG breaks) and that the supporting cast around WB were the worst possible group you could give him or Vogel.

I feel the FO scapegoated WB and Vogel, and this season is going to unfortunately probe that it was not wise. Look, I am no WB fan at all. I don't think he fits. But when you trade for WB, you don't trade him to be what Phil Jackson thinks he did with Gary Payton. I mean come on. Westbrook has never been a spot up guy or a defender. Why would he suddenly do this? The Lakers FO are trying to actively trade him because deep down they know this even though the company line says otherwise.

What I really want to know is why they think Ham is such a good coach. Maybe he will be. I mean Bud won a title with him on his staff. But he also had Giannis, Middleton, Holiday, Portis, Lopez, PJ Tucker, Connaughton, etc.

Like I am no WB fan, but I think he's being set up to fail yet again, and get the fall for what is yet again not a great roster Pelinka has put together. They want to run the offense through AD. Ok, so what does WB do? Bring the ball up and just get in the corner? LOL, Derek Fisher can do that. That's why he got paid 6M. WB is paid 47M because he's supposed to run your offense. This is a real problem, and I don't think the FO really understands what kind of problem it is.

As much as I dislike WB as a Laker, I think our plan for WB is laughable. The right way to get WB going is the way Vogel tried to make it work at season's start or the way D'Antoni ran him in Houston. You have to play small, you have to have a lot of active cutting and defending and 3 point shooting around him. You can't ask WB to be the guy spotting up 3s in too many situations. You can't expect him to move a lot off the ball, as that's not his strength. You bring his minutes down and you try your best to stagger the Lebron/WB minutes.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Reply with quote
governator
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 24996

PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2022 7:03 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
The issue I have with this coaching plan, how many players in the league are much better at shooting 3 pointers, setting screens and defending, than Russ, at his position? Why would we want to trade 45M of contracts like Kuz, KCP, Caruso+Trez (and a FRP) only to end up making WB a 3nD guy? Like the entire plan makes me cringe. Even if WB buys in, you're not going to even get KCP level 3nD play or Caruso level off the ball and defensive energy.

I fully believe Vogel had it right, he tried to get the team to play small, he tried to get WB going. But with the injuries and lack of young active legs around WB, the team just never got going. The FO would put it all on Vogel and WB, while taking no accountabilty for the fact that AD missed most of the season, Lebron took breaks everytime he was on a good flow (And LONG breaks) and that the supporting cast around WB were the worst possible group you could give him or Vogel.

I feel the FO scapegoated WB and Vogel, and this season is going to unfortunately probe that it was not wise. Look, I am no WB fan at all. I don't think he fits. But when you trade for WB, you don't trade him to be what Phil Jackson thinks he did with Gary Payton. I mean come on. Westbrook has never been a spot up guy or a defender. Why would he suddenly do this? The Lakers FO are trying to actively trade him because deep down they know this even though the company line says otherwise.

What I really want to know is why they think Ham is such a good coach. Maybe he will be. I mean Bud won a title with him on his staff. But he also had Giannis, Middleton, Holiday, Portis, Lopez, PJ Tucker, Connaughton, etc.

Like I am no WB fan, but I think he's being set up to fail yet again, and get the fall for what is yet again not a great roster Pelinka has put together. They want to run the offense through AD. Ok, so what does WB do? Bring the ball up and just get in the corner? LOL, Derek Fisher can do that. That's why he got paid 6M. WB is paid 47M because he's supposed to run your offense. This is a real problem, and I don't think the FO really understands what kind of problem it is.

As much as I dislike WB as a Laker, I think our plan for WB is laughable. The right way to get WB going is the way Vogel tried to make it work at season's start or the way D'Antoni ran him in Houston. You have to play small, you have to have a lot of active cutting and defending and 3 point shooting around him. You can't ask WB to be the guy spotting up 3s in too many situations. You can't expect him to move a lot off the ball, as that's not his strength. You bring his minutes down and you try your best to stagger the Lebron/WB minutes.


cause the FO signed defensive wings and no shooting wings. Russ can’t be Russ, no shooters to complement him. He has to be a 3&D so he can stay on the court with Bron like Schroeder did
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
wolfpaclaker
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 58318

PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2022 10:00 am    Post subject:

^
Yep, but that's not on Russ alone. Especially since in the summer they have had a whole offseason to make changes and they've not really come up with something where Russ can be Russ. To make him into a 3&D guy off the ball will require a complete transformation. Think about asking Allen Iverson to become a 3&D guy. That's sort of the request we're making of him, in a way.

I guess there could be some middle ground, but overall it's a weird situation all around.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Reply with quote
governator
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 24996

PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2022 10:12 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
^
Yep, but that's not on Russ alone. Especially since in the summer they have had a whole offseason to make changes and they've not really come up with something where Russ can be Russ. To make him into a 3&D guy off the ball will require a complete transformation. Think about asking Allen Iverson to become a 3&D guy. That's sort of the request we're making of him, in a way.

I guess there could be some middle ground, but overall it's a weird situation all around.


AI didn’t change his game and we remember how bad he was at the end.
Melo was kinda in the same boat, maybe tangentially, be 2nd/3rd option aka spot up shooters and not 1st option on ur sweet spots, he did it and flourish as a 6th man but age prob caught up to him (good for 1st half of season then ran outta gas). Russ, if he wants to play in a contending team, gotta change. Even in a team full of shooters like Warriors, can u picture him not asked to change his game
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
wolfpaclaker
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 58318

PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2022 10:16 am    Post subject:

Thing is with Melo, a) He never became a defender even now b) He always was a great shooter, but took volume shots so his percetages dipped in isolations.

While Melo adjused, he had the skill to be a good 3 point shooter, hence he revived his NBA career.

With Dwight, again, he always was a great defender, so he revived his career in LA in 2019-20 with extremely high level of defense (and rebounding).

With Westbrook, he has never been a defensive presence, nor has he been a shooter. So why we think that we can set him up to succeed in a role that will require a lot more defensive effort and 3 point shooting, IDK. The idea in itself is weird, you've got a 47M guy who is good at one thing - running the ball at a high speed.

The thing that makes sense to me is to bring him off the bench to run the ball. Set him up with a small ball 2nd unit that runs end to end and you change the tempo of the game. Of course WB would not agree to this, but that is when you can scapegoat him. I don't think he's being set up to succeed as a starter or with the system we apparently are going to run.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Reply with quote
governator
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 24996

PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2022 10:22 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
Thing is with Melo, a) He never became a defender even now b) He always was a great shooter, but took volume shots so his percetages dipped in isolations.

While Melo adjused, he had the skill to be a good 3 point shooter, hence he revived his NBA career.

With Dwight, again, he always was a great defender, so he revived his career in LA in 2019-20 with extremely high level of defense (and rebounding).

With Westbrook, he has never been a defensive presence, nor has he been a shooter. So why we think that we can set him up to succeed in a role that will require a lot more defensive effort and 3 point shooting, IDK. The idea in itself is weird, you've got a 47M guy who is good at one thing - running the ball at a high speed.

The thing that makes sense to me is to bring him off the bench to run the ball. Set him up with a small ball 2nd unit that runs end to end and you change the tempo of the game. Of course WB would not agree to this, but that is when you can scapegoat him. I don't think he's being set up to succeed as a starter or with the system we apparently are going to run.


Yeah, our FA signings points toward a team without Westbrook, that’s for sure. Plenty of blame to go around. There’s only 3 players, maybe 4 that can successfully play WB style of play, the relentless attack of the basket, Bron, Freak, Zion and maybe, big maybe, Ben Simmons and to be fair, young Westbrook but these days, he’s not one of those guys so whether he likes it or not, he has to change but like you said, there’s also separate issue of FO not putting/signing players that are more suited to hide his weaknesses. Double whammy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
venturalakersfan
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 14 Apr 2001
Posts: 144432
Location: The Gold Coast

PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2022 11:34 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
The issue I have with this coaching plan, how many players in the league are much better at shooting 3 pointers, setting screens and defending, than Russ, at his position? Why would we want to trade 45M of contracts like Kuz, KCP, Caruso+Trez (and a FRP) only to end up making WB a 3nD guy? Like the entire plan makes me cringe. Even if WB buys in, you're not going to even get KCP level 3nD play or Caruso level off the ball and defensive energy.

I fully believe Vogel had it right, he tried to get the team to play small, he tried to get WB going. But with the injuries and lack of young active legs around WB, the team just never got going. The FO would put it all on Vogel and WB, while taking no accountabilty for the fact that AD missed most of the season, Lebron took breaks everytime he was on a good flow (And LONG breaks) and that the supporting cast around WB were the worst possible group you could give him or Vogel.

I feel the FO scapegoated WB and Vogel, and this season is going to unfortunately probe that it was not wise. Look, I am no WB fan at all. I don't think he fits. But when you trade for WB, you don't trade him to be what Phil Jackson thinks he did with Gary Payton. I mean come on. Westbrook has never been a spot up guy or a defender. Why would he suddenly do this? The Lakers FO are trying to actively trade him because deep down they know this even though the company line says otherwise.

What I really want to know is why they think Ham is such a good coach. Maybe he will be. I mean Bud won a title with him on his staff. But he also had Giannis, Middleton, Holiday, Portis, Lopez, PJ Tucker, Connaughton, etc.

Like I am no WB fan, but I think he's being set up to fail yet again, and get the fall for what is yet again not a great roster Pelinka has put together. They want to run the offense through AD. Ok, so what does WB do? Bring the ball up and just get in the corner? LOL, Derek Fisher can do that. That's why he got paid 6M. WB is paid 47M because he's supposed to run your offense. This is a real problem, and I don't think the FO really understands what kind of problem it is.

As much as I dislike WB as a Laker, I think our plan for WB is laughable. The right way to get WB going is the way Vogel tried to make it work at season's start or the way D'Antoni ran him in Houston. You have to play small, you have to have a lot of active cutting and defending and 3 point shooting around him. You can't ask WB to be the guy spotting up 3s in too many situations. You can't expect him to move a lot off the ball, as that's not his strength. You bring his minutes down and you try your best to stagger the Lebron/WB minutes.


I can’t disagree with any of that
_________________
RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
ocho
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 24 May 2005
Posts: 53714

PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:13 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
So why we think that we can set him up to succeed in a role that will require a lot more defensive effort and 3 point shooting, IDK.


I don’t think they do. Imo the comments about how they expect him to play are more of a statement that they’re not going to try and warp the team into a pretzel to accommodate his meager skills. He plays D and hits shots or he will sit. If they really thought he was going to work out they wouldn’t be scouring the league to find him a new home.
_________________
14-5-3-12
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
yinoma2001
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 119487

PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:28 pm    Post subject:

The only answer is to bring Russ off the bench but too much politics to go there right now. And they will be trying to trade him 24/7 too. The whole Russ situation is FUBAR.
_________________
From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
ocho
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 24 May 2005
Posts: 53714

PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:47 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
The only answer is to bring Russ off the bench but too much politics to go there right now. And they will be trying to trade him 24/7 too. The whole Russ situation is FUBAR.


That’s not an answer either. He presents the same issues off the bench just in fewer minutes or with worse teammates. The two options with Westbrook are either getting him to buy in (he won’t) or warp your team completely to accommodate him (like Houston did). The Lakers aren’t going to contort their entire roster in the name of making Westbrook more effective. He’s not worth it and it doesn’t lead to winning basketball anyway. So they’ve planted the seeds. In the event that we can’t find a trade, he’s expected to play a certain way and if he doesn’t he won’t play. We will see if Ham has the balls to do it but he can’t get a sentence out since he was hired without talking about “accountability.”
_________________
14-5-3-12
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
yinoma2001
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 119487

PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:53 pm    Post subject:

ocho wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
The only answer is to bring Russ off the bench but too much politics to go there right now. And they will be trying to trade him 24/7 too. The whole Russ situation is FUBAR.


That’s not an answer either. He presents the same issues off the bench just in fewer minutes or with worse teammates. The two options with Westbrook are either getting him to buy in (he won’t) or warp your team completely to accommodate him (like Houston did). The Lakers aren’t going to contort their entire roster in the name of making Westbrook more effective. He’s not worth it and it doesn’t lead to winning basketball anyway. So they’ve planted the seeds. In the event that we can’t find a trade, he’s expected to play a certain way and if he doesn’t he won’t play. We will see if Ham has the balls to do it but he can’t get a sentence out since he was hired without talking about “accountability.”


Ya I hear ya. But I think that limits the damage more. He will again take down the efficacy of LBJ/AD starting lineups.
_________________
From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
venturalakersfan
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 14 Apr 2001
Posts: 144432
Location: The Gold Coast

PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2022 2:02 pm    Post subject:

I’m surprised that some here have a hard time believing that it is almost impossible to trade Russ. I remember comments that it would be easy to trade his ending contract but $47 mil is a lot to deal. I don’t believe that anyone wanted him when we traded for him and obviously no one wants him now. And we gave up a FRP to get him. Pelinka is terrible at his job.
_________________
RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Laker's Fan
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 27 Jun 2002
Posts: 12812

PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2022 2:14 pm    Post subject:

Yeah, that's the thing about the "let Russ be Russ" folly. You have to commit to it as a global strategy and force everyone to play into a style that means you will be middling to bad. Basically, OKC for a decade.

I could actually see a role for Russ on teams like Orlando, NY or Washington, where they aren't' set up to be good anyway, but don't necessarily want to bottom out. You could let Russ bulldoze his way to 40 wins if you commit to it and the other pieces fit. It's the antithesis of what the Lakers stand for though.
_________________
Austin Reaves keeps his game tight, like Kobe Bryant on game night.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
lakersfever714
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 05 Jan 2016
Posts: 11597

PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2022 2:24 pm    Post subject:

I refuse believe Ham is smarter than MDA and Vogel. Since we'd eventually all see it, I want to hear Ham's concrete plan in specifics about how he would like to incorporate Russ into the offense.

I mean it's good that the Lakers are trying hard to create leverage. But it would have been more believable if Lebron didn't alienate Russ and Russ didn't fire his agent who suggests that he should embrace the Lakers. We're wearing ski-masks and carrying AR-15s into the bank and we're saying we're just making a deposit. We're just making a deposit. Believe us!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
george w kush
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 05 Jun 2009
Posts: 1167

PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:31 pm    Post subject:

If they can't trade him, they need to pay him to sit @ home. He is a net negative in everything he does on the court. Bringing him off the bench isn't going to fix his airballs, missed layups and turnstile defense.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Aeneas Hunter
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763

PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2022 5:07 pm    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
I’m surprised that some here have a hard time believing that it is almost impossible to trade Russ. I remember comments that it would be easy to trade his ending contract but $47 mil is a lot to deal. I don’t believe that anyone wanted him when we traded for him and obviously no one wants him now. And we gave up a FRP to get him. Pelinka is terrible at his job.


It's remarkable how badly Westbrook's reputation has suffered in just over a year. From the perspective of July 2021, we weren't going to get Russell Westbrook for three role players. That would have been laughable. Yes, there were people who complained about the first-round pick even back then, but the trade just wasn't going to happen without the pick.

The problem with the trade wasn't the pick, but rather that the whole thing was a fundamentally bad idea. But Westbrook had an aura, and a lot of people were seduced by it (including Pelinka, Lebron, and Davis).

I actually feel a little bit sorry for Westbrook, though much of this has been his fault. If he had stayed in Washington, a lot of people would still think that he's a mythic figure. He might even have dragged the Wizards into the play-in tournament again. Instead, he came to the Lakers and got exposed on the biggest stage in the NBA. His legacy as a player may never fully recover.
_________________
Internet Argument Resolved
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
slavavov
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 03 Oct 2003
Posts: 8288
Location: Santa Monica

PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2022 9:42 pm    Post subject:

The Lakers shouldn't completely bend to Westbrook's game and "let Russ be Russ," but at the same time, they have to somewhat play around his strengths.

You have to let him handle the ball about half of the time just because he's so great in transition both as an attacker and as a passer. If you want him to only play off the ball and pick up the scraps, you might as well send him home, but that would be worse than finding a happy medium between playing to his strengths and getting him to buy into a certain role.

Yes, Russ has to focus on playing defense and being productive without the ball on offense. But you also have to let him do his thing playing downhill with the ball while finding a way to divvy ball-handling duties between him and LeBron.

Besides, come crunch time, LeBron will have the ball in his hands almost all the time, as he should.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
george w kush
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 05 Jun 2009
Posts: 1167

PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2022 11:31 pm    Post subject:

slavavov wrote:


You have to let him handle the ball about half of the time just because he's so great in transition both as an attacker and as a passer.





Yeah no thanks.


BTW this is one of my all time favorite rants regarding Westbrook:

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    LakersGround.net Forum Index -> General Basketball Discussion All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 345, 346, 347 ... 424, 425, 426  Next
Page 346 of 426
Jump to:  

 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum






Graphics by uberzev
© 1995-2018 LakersGround.net. All Rights Reserved. Privacy Policy. Terms of Use.
LakersGround is an unofficial news source serving the fan community since 1995.
We are in no way associated with the Los Angeles Lakers or the National Basketball Association.


Powered by phpBB