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activeverb
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Joined: 17 Jun 2006
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 Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 11:48 am Post subject: |
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| levon wrote: | | Rob's plan makes sense on the surface: bring offensive firepower to be an alternative to Lebronball. I think Lebron himself has asked for this. The Clippers have that, the Nets have that, hell even the Mavs have that with THJ and Seth Curry prior. Hence giving up a really valuable piece in Danny Green + a pick for Schroeder, and we know the rest of the story. |
I don't know if the thinking was particularly strategic.
After we won a ring, Rob basically swapped out defense for offense in some decisions that I found puzzling.
After DS declined the extension, Rob switched gears once again. He traded for a star who didn't fit well, and then he filled out the roster with the best minimum players he could find.
But, personally, I don't see that there was much care to really putting an offense together: It seemed more an exercise in chasing names than an attempt at team building.
Rob just seems to operate on a very superficial level. Even when I can sort of see what he's going for in concept, his individual moves tend to not impress me. I haven't seen any evidence that he is a good negotiator (perhaps because he is always coming from a position of perceived weakness) or that he can envision a team beyond the individual players. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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Joined: 12 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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| levon wrote: | | I think you and other posters have pointed out that this is a blame pie. I'm not necessarily saying that party X gets a much bigger slice than the rest. But I'm trying to assess the results of Lebron's influence--and to the degree possible extrapolate his potential moves that didn't come to fruition--and any way I slice it, I don't see his influence as any worse than that of the non-player personnel in this organization. |
I don't know that there is a way to measure blame, so this is reasonable. In a way, this reminds me of the old arguments about who was to blame for the Shaq-Kobe-Phil split up. The best answer is "everyone."
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LakerSD
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Joined: 10 Nov 2016
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| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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It’s not rocket science.
This happens everywhere LeGM goes. Let’s hope we rebound as well Miami has… |
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Bol
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Joined: 24 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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I think they took some chances in building the roster and so far it doesn't look like it'll work out. Maybe it'll turn out the vets are just pacing themselves and they'll pick it up later in the season. I don't think so, but maybe.
I do think there was reason to think the team needed change. They won the bubble championship under unusual circumstances, obviously. In addition to the interrupted season--which gave LeBron and AD an extraordinary opportunity to be fresh and healthy for the playoffs--and the bubble environment, they didn't have to face their toughest competition in the West, and got a cupcake in the Finals. After last season, counting on LeBron to make it through this season healthy would've been a foolish bet, so I don't blame them for believing they needed another guy who could run the show. Also, if all teams were healthy, it looked like the Nets would be the favorites, so they probably felt they needed to do something to try to match them. Again, doesn't look like it'll work out, but I still see logic behind the moves they made. |
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wolfpaclaker
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Joined: 29 May 2002
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| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Lakesh0wtime wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | | Quote: | | Our team now is built more offensively, but our coach is still trying to play as if we are the 2020 team. |
You see I disagree here. I see the Lakers trying to push pace. We're what top 3 in pace? I think 2nd in the league in pace, 5th in the league in points. But per possessions we're bad.
In the ring season LA was 11th in pace, 11th in points and 11th in per possessions effeciency. So that's a balanced rating. That's Vogel offense.
This is a style that Vogel has never implemented before in Indiana or here. I think Fizdale is the one being brought in to run some of this. The Lakers are 2nd in pace, 5th in points per, but 23rd in per possessions effeciency.
So if you mean he's trying to play the same way as 2020, I don't see it. For sure one could argue he's not the right coach for a pace & space team. |
Of course our pace is faster we have Westbrook. My comment was more about vogels rotations not the pace we’re playing at.
Vogel is sticking to his guns and continues to start Avery and Deandre.
Avery has been up and down but we’re literally starting games and the 3rd quarter at a handicap with how horrible Deandre has been. |
Yeah, a pace and space coach specialist would likely start AD at the 5, Melo, Bron, maybe Monk or Ellington at the 2. With WB at 1.
The issue is when AD has moved to the 5, the Lakers defense has gotten worse. Because AD goes out and defends the perimeter and inside we fall apart. We had better D when Bron was at the 5, because he was calling the plays so well that they didn't need to switch. But it was the match up as well.
It's really hard to make a call on this. Two years ago, we would have started DAJ/Bradley and had a motivated AD/Bron on D. That's 3 elite defenders in AB, Bron, AD. DeAndre may not be much but he has elite size and rim protection/rebounds. However now with this whole pace and space angle, ugh.
I just don't know the solution. I think we should abandon the whole we must push the ball and play fast, especially with the first unit. I think when we go with AD at the 5 or Bron at the 5, that's when we should play space/pace. When we play the starters, we should play more bully ball and be slower paced, even if it's easier to defend. It sets the tone for the defense. Who cares if no one plays post up basketball anymore? When you have Bron at the 3, you need to post him up! Have Westbrook cut. There's a lot you can do, and develop in halfcourt sets. Instead we push the pace and don't really execute in the halfcourt, it ends up an isolation with those guys. We should have a sound post up game, where one of AD/Bron are in the post, and then you have cutting around them and corner shooting. DAJ has to crash the glass. If we play with full effort, I am sure this can work.
But without AD/Bron/WB fully buying into defense, that DAJ/AD/Bron/WB/AB lineup won't work. On paper it should be good on defense, great actually. And we can probably come up with some respectable offense if Bron/AD were fully engaged. This is just not a very motivated team, IMO. That is one if the biggest obstacles for Frank, he doesn't have two superstars who are taking the RS very seriously. |
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levon
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| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 1:09 pm Post subject: Re: All this talk of Lebron sabotaging this team's future |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: |
The team looks like a contender, but not a lock to win a title. But then the pandemic hits. This turns out to be a blessing in disguise, because it gives Lebron and Davis a few months of rest. The playoffs take place in the bubble, which is a big advantage for another reason: there is no travel. Lebron doesn't have to fly across the country during the playoffs. A lot of people overlook the significance of this. So we win a title.
Now, you need to decide whether that title justifies everything else. There is a reasonable argument that it does. We went from a losing team with a bunch of kids to a contender and champion. For some people, that justifies everything. For me, it was the minimum acceptable result.
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I agree with most of your post, but this specific section reads as selling the Lakers (and Lebron) short a little bit. After the Kawhi free agency, there were a lot of questions surrounding the Lakers, and the Clippers were declared better across the board. Yet another example of how the real professionals inside the Clippers org beat out the dysfunctional has-beens in Lakerland.
But by March, the Lakers had beaten both the Bucks and Clippers back-to-back and had accumulated enough signature wins to silence the SRS critics. They'd also won 17 (19?) straight Western conference road wins, which I believe is an NBA record, were undefeated when leading after 3 quarters, and had the best defense in the league. The only people that considered the Clippers better were still trying to reconcile the perceived talent disparity from the summer, as well as the seemingly inevitable unstoppable Kawhi Leonard run.
The bubble was a testament to Lebron's off-court value more than anything. The circumstances seemed the same for everyone: no travel, a restricted lifestyle, and personal and societal grief on the outside. The strongest Teams in Miami and LA made it to the end, and the best team won.
What put us over the top was AD's on-court play and Lebron's off-court leadership from training camp. But both of those things have been missing or diminished since. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763
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| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:50 pm Post subject: Re: All this talk of Lebron sabotaging this team's future |
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| levon wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: |
The team looks like a contender, but not a lock to win a title. But then the pandemic hits. This turns out to be a blessing in disguise, because it gives Lebron and Davis a few months of rest. The playoffs take place in the bubble, which is a big advantage for another reason: there is no travel. Lebron doesn't have to fly across the country during the playoffs. A lot of people overlook the significance of this. So we win a title.
Now, you need to decide whether that title justifies everything else. There is a reasonable argument that it does. We went from a losing team with a bunch of kids to a contender and champion. For some people, that justifies everything. For me, it was the minimum acceptable result.
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I agree with most of your post, but this specific section reads as selling the Lakers (and Lebron) short a little bit. After the Kawhi free agency, there were a lot of questions surrounding the Lakers, and the Clippers were declared better across the board. Yet another example of how the real professionals inside the Clippers org beat out the dysfunctional has-beens in Lakerland.
But by March, the Lakers had beaten both the Bucks and Clippers back-to-back and had accumulated enough signature wins to silence the SRS critics. They'd also won 17 (19?) straight Western conference road wins, which I believe is an NBA record, were undefeated when leading after 3 quarters, and had the best defense in the league. The only people that considered the Clippers better were still trying to reconcile the perceived talent disparity from the summer, as well as the seemingly inevitable unstoppable Kawhi Leonard run.
The bubble was a testament to Lebron's off-court value more than anything. The circumstances seemed the same for everyone: no travel, a restricted lifestyle, and personal and societal grief on the outside. The strongest Teams in Miami and LA made it to the end, and the best team won.
What put us over the top was AD's on-court play and Lebron's off-court leadership from training camp. But both of those things have been missing or diminished since. |
Maybe. I regarded the Clippers hype mostly as noise. I know that it annoyed a lot of Lakers fans, but I thought it was just a case of the media generating a story. That's just what the sports media does. The Clippers were a pretty good team in '20, but the splashy acquisition of Kawhi and George encouraged exaggeration. I guess you could say that they were the Nets of 2020.
We all know that the circumstances of the bubble were weird. We had players opting out, players who were clearly distracted by outside events (both the pandemic and the George Floyd murder), and social conditions that seemed to affect different teams differently. We were relying on an aging player in Lebron, so the absence of travel was a big deal. What would have happened if we had been flying back and forth to Portland, Houston, Denver, and Miami? It's a perfectly legitimate title, but that doesn't mean it wasn't pretty weird.
So was our success a sign of Lebron's off-court value? Maybe. There's no way to prove or disprove that hypothesis. Yet Lebron was the face of the team, and he is going to be a magnet for both credit and blame. So I have no problem with attributing our success to Lebron's off-court value.
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venturalakersfan
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Joined: 14 Apr 2001
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Location: The Gold Coast
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| Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2021 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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| RG73 wrote: | | KindCrippler2000 wrote: | | I said a while ago, the team isn't just getting Lebron; they are also getting the baggage associated with him, for better or for worse. Under no circumstances should a player have more sway than the GM. It wasn't the case with Jordan; it wasn't the case with Kobe; it shouldn't be the case with Bron. |
Again, look at the difference in owners; the Bulls and Lakers had "the bucks stops with me" owners that took responsibility and held firm against star demands. Jeannie has always been buddies with the team's stars--this doesn't lend itself to good management.
It is just like children--no structure, no discipline, and they'll just push and push and do what they want as long as their are no consequences.
Without strong ownership, the whole thing falls apart. And right now Lebron is the only thing keeping this franchise somewhat afloat (don't think AD and his bouts of apathy would be putting pressure on the FO to improve).
It is very simple: the Buss family should have hired people much smarter than themselves to find the best basketball minds in the world (along with the best training staff, that would help too). Then they should have paid the same kind of money they paid for talent on the court to get those people. And then they could sit back and look really smart while the actually smart people did the hard work of building a basketball club. And then they might also want to empower those people to put limits on player control of the team. So it isn't Lebron--it has always been an ownership issue. Period. |
Hit the nail on the head. We have seen it with other successful businesses, the father passes away and the children aren’t capable of keeping the company afloat. Jeanie is no Dr. Buss and her failures in business led her to turn to what she is comfortable with (Rambis) instead of a proven executive. If she understood business then that is exactly what she should have done, seek out a qualified NBA executive.
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