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DeltronsBET
Sixth Man
Joined: 30 Jun 2008
Posts: 74
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 Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 11:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Ariza ain't not starter worthy! |
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Mark_in_Tulsa
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Joined: 11 Jul 2005
Posts: 12977
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| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 11:52 pm Post subject: |
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| DeltronsBET wrote: | | Ariza ain't not starter worthy! |
I don't know if you know this, but you just made a double negative.
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Super Mega Team
Star Player
Joined: 25 Jul 2008
Posts: 3877
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| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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| I think if Ariza starts it's more about fit/chemistry. Lamar can still come off the bench and play more minutes a la Manu. |
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J.C. Smith
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Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 12679
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| Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 12:29 am Post subject: Re: Would it be too crazy to start Ariza at the 3? |
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| lakersboy wrote: | | as i've said before, i've watched trevor since he was a terrible shooting freshman. he was still not a good shooter when he came to the lakers. during his time off he worked hard on his shot and when you go to the games and watch him warm up, you can see it. |
He did have a few months where he couldn't do much but shoot. Unfortunately he didn't get enough run in the playoffs to see if he had improved at all. I will say this for him, he will take the shot when opposing teams give it to him. If they play off of him he realized he still needs to take the shot and he does. As a Laker though he only shot 33% on those shots. Odom by contrast shot 40%. Trevor is young and it wouldn't be unprecedented for him to develop a good jump shot, its been done many times by other players. But in my opinion that was the main reason he didn't get more playing time in the finals. He had been out of the rotation for a while and Boston completely sagged off him when he got the ball. He took and made some shots to make them pay but they were playing the percentages.
Ariza didn't have a huge sampling of jumpers as a Laker but here's his hotspots:
FG %:
inside: 55-82 / 67.1%
10-15' left side: 0-4 / 0%
10-15 foot straight: 2-6 / 33.3%
10-15 foot right: 1-4 / 25%
15'+ 2 left: 1-4 / 25%
15'+ left and center: 0-1 / 0%
15+ top of key: 1-4 / 25%
15'+ right and center: 2-7 / 28.6%
15'+ right: 2-5 / 40%
3 point left side: 4-12 / 33.3%
3 point left and center: 0-1 / 0%
didn't take any straight on threes
3 point right and center: 0-2 / 0%
3 point right side: 1-3 / 33.3%
It's a pretty small sampling, he only generally takes those shots when people sag off him. The one spot that he did seem really comfortable at from those numbers is the left corner threes, where he took 12 shots and made 4. He didn't take more than 7 shots from any other spot on teh floor except for under the basket, so that he seems confident at that spot.
It should be noted that a lot NBA players hit a lot of shots in warmups, but at a much lower rate in games. Bynum has three point range in warmups, he's a really good shooter. But in games he has clanked a high percentage of them. If a guy is a good shooter in practice but not in games, its usually a confidence issue. They are thinking about the shot when they are shooting instead of just shooting it. Sometimes a taste of some in-game success is all they need to get going.
| lakersboy wrote: | | nothing i say will prove it but i assure you that trevor will start the season as a good shooter and people will think he accomplished that during the off season. he's already a better shooter and in 2 months, everyone will be seeing it. |
No need to prove it to me, I'll take your word for it, and hopefully your right. If Trevor could improve his jump shot to a reasonable level, that would make him a lot more valuable player. He's a great athlete and plays with a lot of effort. The three things that hold him back right now are inexperience, a history of injuries and the lack of a jump shot. If opponents had to respect his jump shot then he'd be very difficult to guard, because he has a great first step and once he gets a head of steam hes a good finisher. |
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sAM sHILE
Star Player
Joined: 02 Dec 2007
Posts: 2448
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| Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 12:40 am Post subject: Re: Would it be too crazy to start Ariza at the 3? |
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| lakersboy wrote: | | J.C. Smith wrote: | Ariza is an energy player, and unless your having problems with slow starts, energy players are usually best off the bench. When your team is dragging you toss them in there and they can change the pace of a game. He really doesn't do anything better than Odom though, aside from being a high octane and high effort guy. Odom is a better scorer, rebounder, passer, and shooter than Trevor, and personally I think Odom is a better defender in many cases.
Trevor is a better athlete and that athleticism can help him bother and disrupt some players. He can guard point guards, and when a guy is hot he is someone who can come in, gamble, pressure and give them a different look. He isn't a sound defender though fundamentally, he gets by on his athleticism, and can get burnt. He's got the potential to be an elite defender, and right now his defense is reminiscent to me of when we had Devean George here. If a guy catches fire, put Ariza on him and see if he can bother him. If nothing else he makes the player adjust which can help take them out of a zone. In normal minute to minute defense though, he's overrated.
So Trevor stays on the bench, and we use him to try to disrupt hot players or to give us a boost of energy when we need it, in my opinion. It's funny Odom is pretty solid all around, but he is only a mediocre shooter, and there are countless threads about why he won't work as a small forward because he can't spread the floor. Well Trevor is a terrible shooter, and he isn't up to par on other areas that Odom is. I'm not sure why people think he would work better in that role. You could do worse than having Ariza as a starting small forward, but Odom is the better player. Not only that but Odom can be a ball handler and relive Kobe from those duties, Ariza can not. Moreover, Odom figures to be our backup power forward, as well. It's a lot easier to start Odom and then give Pau a breather at the 6-8 minute mark, slide Odom to the 4 and Ariza comes in at the 3. When Pau comes back he gives Bynum a blow. Odom can't come off the bench and backup two positions. He can start at the 3 though and slide over to the 4 when Pau goes out of the game. |
j.c. i've always agreed with about 99.5% of everything you say. you've got some solid takes and you seem to think just like me. to me, you and lakerjam are the voices of reason on here. HOWEVER....., i disagree with you.
as i've said before, i've watched trevor since he was a terrible shooting freshman. he was still not a good shooter when he came to the lakers. during his time off he worked hard on his shot and when you go to the games and watch him warm up, you can see it. he didnt get enough consistent run to really tell but it was clear to me during warmups of several playoff games i went to that he finally has a touch. i assure you.....trevor cant be called a terrible shooter. even kobe acknowledged that trevor's shot improved a lot while he was off. at more than 1 game, i saw him consistently nailing 3 point shots during warmups. he couldnt do that before.
nothing i say will prove it but i assure you that trevor will start the season as a good shooter and people will think he accomplished that during the off season. he's already a better shooter and in 2 months, everyone will be seeing it. |
your right nothing to prove it. his history is airball ariza!!
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limchrc
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| Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 5:15 am Post subject: |
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| I think Lamar will play G and Kobe slide to SF. |
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wolfpaclaker
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Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 58349
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| Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 6:27 am Post subject: |
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Ariza is a 2nd unit player.
With Turiaf gone, LA now needs energy more than ever off the bench. Ariza and Powell are the guys that will bring athleticism and energy at the forward spots. Radmanovic and Walton will bring skill and size.
Gasol and Odom, START. Period. |
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TheGOATWears#24
Star Player
Joined: 12 Jan 2008
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Location: Orange County
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| Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 6:45 am Post subject: |
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Not as crazy as Farmar starting over Fish, Sasha over Kobe, and Luke over LO. Heck, Mihm over AB.
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Texas_Pete
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Joined: 23 Jun 2005
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Location: Somewhere watching a Laker game
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| Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 6:58 am Post subject: |
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Not crazy at all. For those that say he is just an energy/hustle guy, I say how many times the Lakers have either had to dig deep out of holes or flat out lost to young athletic teams like Portland? With Ariza in the game taking tough assignments (like Pip did for MJ), we match the offensive onslaught we often face with strong perimeter defense. The one thing LO does better than Ariza is board. That evens out now that Drew (really good rebounder) is playing and LO will often be on the perimeter. Points in the paint: advantage Ariza because he finishes strong. Both are sometimes turnover prone, but with Ariza it is because he is consistently aggressive. The SF/SG positions are arguably the strongest scoring positions to defend. LO is a better PF than he is a SF and I flat out think Ariza gives us a better defensive option at the 3 right now - although I'm cool if LO brings it at the position.
Like others have said, what is wrong with LO coming off the bench and dominating a second string SF (or depending on the matchup - PF)? He could still get his mpg without starting. And I think when PJ talking about players having to sacrifice this year he was talking about LO. |
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raffi
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Joined: 24 Jun 2005
Posts: 9987
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| Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 7:27 am Post subject: |
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Nope, but it won't happen early in the season.
They'll need to sell LO on the idea, but not sure he'll be okay with it. |
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Tanlentueux
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Joined: 20 Jul 2005
Posts: 7169
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| Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 8:00 am Post subject: |
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| Pappy wrote: | | Ariza wont start as long as odom's here IMO. no way the Lakers pay odom all that coin to come off the bench! |
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Sage_10
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| Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 8:04 am Post subject: |
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From what I have seen Ariza plays better alongside Kobe. And personally I would rather have a stronger defensive unit at the start. But as mentioned LO is getting paid too much to be a bench warmer.
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PrplReign
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Posts: 2796
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| Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 8:27 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Lamar/Luke/Walton for Felton/Morrison |
OMG, thank you so much for the great belly laugh. I needed it this morning. Adam Morrison?
Personally, I think if the Lakers do decide to move Lamar they could do better than Ray Felton and Adam Morrison.
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golakersgo121
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Joined: 21 Sep 2006
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Location: 8 miles from Staples Center
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| Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 8:48 am Post subject: |
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To tell you the truth, there is not much relevance on who is starting but rather who gets the minutes.
Today (I believe) we have very strong nine players rotation:
Fish
Kobe
Lamar
Pau
Drew
Farmar
Sasha
Ariza
Radman/Luke - whoever is playing well in this particular game
In certain games Drew will not play more than half of a game. I also don't anticipate anybody averaging even close to 40MPG. May be, Kobe, Lamar and Pau at 35MPG max...
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FreakofNature
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Location: Maui ...
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| Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 9:38 am Post subject: |
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I think LO will start at the 3. But get as many minutes at the 4,when he backs up Pau and Bynum. This will allow Sasha and Ariza more minutes,and even Kobe getting sometime at the 3....
Sasha will be vital,because we need a bonfide "court spreader" to help the Kobe,Bynum and Pau trio....
Ariza needs to take 1000 shots per day,get a good form going,if he can get a decent enough jumper going,he does have shot at lot's of minutes....  |
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Rick12322
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Joined: 27 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 9:51 am Post subject: |
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| Ariza's greatest strength seems to be playing the passing lanes. |
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Great One
Star Player
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Location: Girl I'm Back in Spanish Town
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| Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 10:02 am Post subject: |
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Odom coming off the bench makes this team extremely deep.
Bynum/Powell
Pau/Odom/Mihm
Ariza/Vlade/walton
Kobe/Sasha
Fisher/Farmer/Yue
on paper, not only are we deeper from last year, but probably the deepest
team in the league.
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Rick12322
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| Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 10:07 am Post subject: |
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| I wouldn't write Chris Mihm off so easily as #2 C. He's going to have a bounce back year now that the ankle is finally feeling good. |
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Super Mega Team
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Posts: 3877
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| Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 10:13 am Post subject: |
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| Rick12322 wrote: | | I wouldn't write Chris Mihm off so easily as #2 C. He's going to have a bounce back year now that the ankle is finally feeling good. |
I wouldn't blame people for being skeptical as we have heard the same song for over 2 years now. How many times did we hear that LAST year that he was almost back? An elite athlete will struggle to come back after a major injury if they have been out 2 years (see Grant Hill). How does that bode for someone who wasn't an elite athlete? |
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Rick12322
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| Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 10:25 am Post subject: |
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| OC Lakerfan wrote: | | Rick12322 wrote: | | I wouldn't write Chris Mihm off so easily as #2 C. He's going to have a bounce back year now that the ankle is finally feeling good. |
I wouldn't blame people for being skeptical as we have heard the same song for over 2 years now. How many times did we hear that LAST year that he was almost back? An elite athlete will struggle to come back after a major injury if they have been out 2 years (see Grant Hill). How does that bode for someone who wasn't an elite athlete? |
Better, as Chris' strengths have always been his skills and size with decent athleticism for a 7'er, not total dependence on elite athleticism alone as many elite athletes are.
I realize many have 'given up' on Chris Mihm, I'm saying I'm not one of them. And, the Lakers have said they are going to count on him to backup AB. |
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Steve007
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| Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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| It's not crazy to start Ariza at the 3, but I doubt that it's a good move. |
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LVLAKERFAN
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Location: United States
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| Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Big Chief Triangle wrote: | | OregonLakerGuy wrote: | Until he gets bettter than Odom it would be crazy.
We will see how he has improved. If he can actually beat out Lamar at the three, we would have it made and could trade Odom for whatever our next greatest need is.
I don't see it happening, but stranger stuff has happened before. |
Our need at SF really isn't that great.
All we need is a shooter who will pull the trigger.
If Trevor can do that we need to move Lamar for a PG.
Lamar/Luke/Walton for Felton/Morrison |
Yuck
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stillmatic
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| Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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I was typing a response to this thread and disagree with the OP, but then i REALLY thought it and it wouldn't be THAT bad of an idea.
He'll gel nicely with the second unit and it'll force him to become more aggressive because he's part of 2nd unit now so he can't just coast out there and be passive.
And I don't think it would be a case of swallowing his pride in Lamar's case, it's not that he's not good enough to start, but he may just be a great spark off the bench.
If Ginobli can come off the bench, then any player should be able to and not be ashamed of it. |
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sAM sHILE
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Joined: 02 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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| illmatic wrote: | I was typing a response to this thread and disagree with the OP, but then i REALLY thought it and it wouldn't be THAT bad of an idea.
He'll gel nicely with the second unit and it'll force him to become more aggressive because he's part of 2nd unit now so he can't just coast out there and be passive.
And I don't think it would be a case of swallowing his pride in Lamar's case, it's not that he's not good enough to start, but he may just be a great spark off the bench.
If Ginobli can come off the bench, then any player should be able to and not be ashamed of it. |
i agree. however, Lamar and Pau have good chemistry against 30 of the 31 teams.
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stillmatic
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Location: Tarzana
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| Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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| sAM sHILE wrote: | | illmatic wrote: | I was typing a response to this thread and disagree with the OP, but then i REALLY thought it and it wouldn't be THAT bad of an idea.
He'll gel nicely with the second unit and it'll force him to become more aggressive because he's part of 2nd unit now so he can't just coast out there and be passive.
And I don't think it would be a case of swallowing his pride in Lamar's case, it's not that he's not good enough to start, but he may just be a great spark off the bench.
If Ginobli can come off the bench, then any player should be able to and not be ashamed of it. |
i agree. however, Lamar and Pau have good chemistry against 30 of the 31 teams. |
Yeah, damn, that is true...I really wonder though how that's going to change with Pau moving to the 4 and Andrew playing Center, I think that'll definitely have an impact. We shall wait and see.
By the way, 28 of 29 teams  30 total, but not including Lakers it's 29. |
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