Who is the best boxer of all time?
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TACH
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 4:08 am    Post subject:

KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote:
24 wrote:
LuxuryBrown wrote:
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Did Wepner knock Ali out? Did Norton? Frazier? Foreman? Shavers? Quarry? Liston? I just listed 6 boxers (i didn't include Wepner ) that were better than anyone Tyson ever beat


Now, were ANYONE of those that knocked Ali down better than Tyson?

And how was he "screwing around"? Where's the evidence of that? Are you saying he was taunting and sticking his tongue out and not taking the fighters seriously? Sounds an awful like an excuse - in fact - it IS.

Look, there's no shame in ANY fighter getting knocked down, the point is, he got knocked down by lesser fighters than Tyson - a man KNOWN for knocking people out. That's why I think it's ridiculous for people to avoid and dance around that KEY FACT that Mike could knock Ali out.

So again: Knowing what we know about the 2 fighters - Prime Tyson (86-91) would definitely be able to hit/knock down/knock out Prime Ali. Anyone who can't see that is simply idolizing Ali into myth. The only way Ali avoids any of that is if he sticks and moves and holds whenever Mike gets in close. The bottomline is, Mike is gonna get at least one shot in. It's inevitable.


Again, you ignore the basis of a debate, to present evidence of one's claims. You say that anyone who disagrees with the opinion that Tyson would knock out Ali, an opinion largely bereft of cogent evidence or anything beyond mythological hero-worship of Tyson, not to mention an opinion widely disputed by boxing cognoscenti, is simply idolizing Ali.

I could respond that anyone who doesn't see, or rather guarantee Ali winning is stupid. This doesn't get us anywhere, it merely creates a dogmatic standoff.

Ali was never knocked out by a myriad of guys who hit as hard or harder than Tyson. He was knocked down by a couple guys he didn't take seriously. This is no excuse, merely an acknowledgement that the great Ali sometimes didn't take nobodies seriously enough in the ring. He did, however, take his training seriously enough so that, unlike Tyson, he could get back up and finish them off.

Common sense tells us Ali would take Tyson seriously (as I suspect Mike would take Ali), and the evidence tells us that when serious, he didn't get knocked out by punchers of Mike's caliber. And he took some great shots from them.

You cite Mike's speed, but fail to notice it was only straight-line speed. Mike simply leaped at his opponent, used his peekaboo style to ward off blows on the way in, and hit them til they dropped. You also fail to see that those fighters mostly ran from him, or when they stood and fought, were not of sufficient skill to beat him. Nobody until Douglas worked the angles, shifting deftly sideways and launching shots from the oblique angle, forcing mike to move and turn laterally, something he was unfamiliar and wholely inadequate at.

Everything we know tells us that Ali's speed, reach, smarts, and fantastic footwork would have him emulating that gameplan, only with superior talent. He would hit Mike from all angles, often while slipping and moving away from his power. It's possible that Mike might get him with a shot, even knock him down, but there's no evidence that Ali wouldn't get back up and methodically take him apart. We know Ali had a superior chin to any fighter Mike fought during your truncated period, and in fact to any fighter Tyson fought, ever.



Interesting debate. I'll just add my two cents.

Ali would absolutely kill Iron Mike. I mean seriously kill him. He'd make him quite by the 5th round.
Mike Tyson had no heart... Mike Tyson would of never survived a fight like the Ali/Frazier fight in he Manilla... NEVER!! His mental make-up would not allow him to put his body through a fight like that.... Mike is one of the greats of all time... but he not above Ali.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 1:01 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
Interesting debate. I'll just add my two cents.


Quote:
Ali would absolutely kill Iron Mike. I mean seriously kill him. He'd make him quite by the 5th round.Mike Tyson had no heart... Mike Tyson would of never survived a fight like the Ali/Frazier fight in he Manilla... NEVER!! His mental make-up would not allow him to put his body through a fight like that.... Mike is one of the greats of all time... but he not above Ali


Tyson is a different animal. It isn't fair to try and theorize what might have happened if he fought Ali, because there are just too many variables that could have dramatically changed the outcome of the fight.

Mike Tyson never reached his potential-Scratch that, he never even came close to it. In a recent interview Mike said that once Cus D'amato died (Tyson was 19) a part of him died too. D'amato was the only person in his life that he trusted, and the only person that really cared about him. Once D'Amato was gone, Tyson became a ticking time-bomb. The man was clinically diagnosed with bi-polar disorder back in 1988, and it never helped that by this point in time, almost everyone in his life would eventually find some way to exploit him for money and fame. Of course a man like that would be mentally unstable. If you've ever heard anything about Tyson's life, you'd understand why. In all fairness, to say that Ali is greater than Tyson is like saying that Jim Brown was a much better running back than Bo Jackson. Sure, Brown may have accomplished more than Jackson, but Jackson's career was cut short by a devastating injury after only playing in the league for five years. What would Jackson have accomplished if that hip wouldn't have popped? In the same way that Jackson was an unparalleled athletic freak of nature, blessed with the build of a linebacker and the speed of a horse, Tyson had the strength of a silverback and the ferocity of a Tiger. Unfortunately, we never got to see him peak.
On the other hand, Ali's greatness is defined basically by two fights, "The Thrilla in Manilla", and "The Rumble In The Jungle". His fight against Foreman was without a doubt, a great accomplishment, and it proved how great his boxing skills were and how smart he was in the ring. "The Thrilla in Manilla" proved that he had a great chin, and a lot of heart. However, the fact that Ali asked to have his gloves cut off at the end of the 14th round, while Frazier wanted to continue fighting but lost when his trainer threw in the towel, proves that perhaps we've elevated Ali in our minds to a level of immortality that is a bit unrealistic. If Ken Norton broke Ali's jaw, can you imagine what one of those bombs from Tyson could have done? Ali has seen power before, no doubt. But did he ever see somebody with equal, if not greater power than Smokin' Joe Frazier and speed that almost matched his own? Likewise, if Tyson was not mentally strong enough to deal with the illegal headbutts from Holyfield, how would he survive the endless trash talk from Ali? Who knows...

The bottom line is that Tyson never came close to hitting his potential. Ali accomplished enough in his career to be called the GOAT, there's no doubt about that. But in the same way as Jordan, he is looked upon as an immortal sports figure in our society. The fact that he is now looked upon as a mythical sports hero makes it totally unfair to compare him to Tyson. because at the end of the day he is only human but people seem to think otherwise.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 2:12 pm    Post subject:

TrueWarrior wrote:
Quote:
Interesting debate. I'll just add my two cents.


Quote:
Ali would absolutely kill Iron Mike. I mean seriously kill him. He'd make him quite by the 5th round.Mike Tyson had no heart... Mike Tyson would of never survived a fight like the Ali/Frazier fight in he Manilla... NEVER!! His mental make-up would not allow him to put his body through a fight like that.... Mike is one of the greats of all time... but he not above Ali


Tyson is a different animal. It isn't fair to try and theorize what might have happened if he fought Ali, because there are just too many variables that could have dramatically changed the outcome of the fight.

Mike Tyson never reached his potential-Scratch that, he never even came close to it. In a recent interview Mike said that once Cus D'amato died (Tyson was 19) a part of him died too. D'amato was the only person in his life that he trusted, and the only person that really cared about him. Once D'Amato was gone, Tyson became a ticking time-bomb. The man was clinically diagnosed with bi-polar disorder back in 1988, and it never helped that by this point in time, almost everyone in his life would eventually find some way to exploit him for money and fame. Of course a man like that would be mentally unstable. If you've ever heard anything about Tyson's life, you'd understand why. In all fairness, to say that Ali is greater than Tyson is like saying that Jim Brown was a much better running back than Bo Jackson. Sure, Brown may have accomplished more than Jackson, but Jackson's career was cut short by a devastating injury after only playing in the league for five years. What would Jackson have accomplished if that hip wouldn't have popped? In the same way that Jackson was an unparalleled athletic freak of nature, blessed with the build of a linebacker and the speed of a horse, Tyson had the strength of a silverback and the ferocity of a Tiger. Unfortunately, we never got to see him peak.
On the other hand, Ali's greatness is defined basically by two fights, "The Thrilla in Manilla", and "The Rumble In The Jungle". His fight against Foreman was without a doubt, a great accomplishment, and it proved how great his boxing skills were and how smart he was in the ring. "The Thrilla in Manilla" proved that he had a great chin, and a lot of heart. However, the fact that Ali asked to have his gloves cut off at the end of the 14th round, while Frazier wanted to continue fighting but lost when his trainer threw in the towel, proves that perhaps we've elevated Ali in our minds to a level of immortality that is a bit unrealistic. If Ken Norton broke Ali's jaw, can you imagine what one of those bombs from Tyson could have done? Ali has seen power before, no doubt. But did he ever see somebody with equal, if not greater power than Smokin' Joe Frazier and speed that almost matched his own? Likewise, if Tyson was not mentally strong enough to deal with the illegal headbutts from Holyfield, how would he survive the endless trash talk from Ali? Who knows...

The bottom line is that Tyson never came close to hitting his potential. Ali accomplished enough in his career to be called the GOAT, there's no doubt about that. But in the same way as Jordan, he is looked upon as an immortal sports figure in our society. The fact that he is now looked upon as a mythical sports hero makes it totally unfair to compare him to Tyson. because at the end of the day he is only human but people seem to think otherwise.


A few issues with that:

1. You can't really compare Jackson's career ending injury to Mike's problems. Mike was always a bully, and it was only Cus that kept him on the straight and narrow. He never learned to control himself, or to actually box at a level commensurate with his talents. That's on Mike, not some injury. He knew he was bi-polar, but he sought no help. You can rest assured Bo would have taken any treatment possible to get back on the field.

2. It's a bit disingenuous (although I don't think deliberately) to bring up Norton breaking Ali's jaw. Aside from the freak possibilities (Such as when Bynum broke Wallace's ribs), you also leave out the fact that Ali stayed in the fight, and won.

3. Leaving aside the probabilities of Norton's shot, most experts will tell you that Norton, Quarry, even Foreman were harder punchers than Tyson. He packed a load, but the idea that it was unprecedented is pure myth. Heck, I bet Frazier had nearly as good a punch. What Ali did in the two fights you mentioned was to take more punishment than he likely would have ever seen against iron Mike.

4. Tyson was short on the skills necessary to take Ali, and Ali was long on the skills to take Mike. Mike never advanced beyond a shock-and-awe type of fighter, one who steamrolled his opponents quickly. His defense was good as long as he was coming forward and you were running or standing there. Douglass showed that if you had a reasonable chin, lack of fear, and a combination of length and angles, you could hit mike nearly at will. If you could last a few rounds and fight back, Mike tired and became frustrated, becoming even wilder and easier to hit. Also, I know it's heresy to say this, but Mike's chin was suspect. Most fighters couldn't get to it early, and couldn't last long enough to exploit it, or else didn't have the power to do so. Ali had all three in spades.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 2:32 pm    Post subject:

24 wrote:
TrueWarrior wrote:
Quote:
Interesting debate. I'll just add my two cents.


Quote:
Ali would absolutely kill Iron Mike. I mean seriously kill him. He'd make him quite by the 5th round.Mike Tyson had no heart... Mike Tyson would of never survived a fight like the Ali/Frazier fight in he Manilla... NEVER!! His mental make-up would not allow him to put his body through a fight like that.... Mike is one of the greats of all time... but he not above Ali


Tyson is a different animal. It isn't fair to try and theorize what might have happened if he fought Ali, because there are just too many variables that could have dramatically changed the outcome of the fight.

Mike Tyson never reached his potential-Scratch that, he never even came close to it. In a recent interview Mike said that once Cus D'amato died (Tyson was 19) a part of him died too. D'amato was the only person in his life that he trusted, and the only person that really cared about him. Once D'Amato was gone, Tyson became a ticking time-bomb. The man was clinically diagnosed with bi-polar disorder back in 1988, and it never helped that by this point in time, almost everyone in his life would eventually find some way to exploit him for money and fame. Of course a man like that would be mentally unstable. If you've ever heard anything about Tyson's life, you'd understand why. In all fairness, to say that Ali is greater than Tyson is like saying that Jim Brown was a much better running back than Bo Jackson. Sure, Brown may have accomplished more than Jackson, but Jackson's career was cut short by a devastating injury after only playing in the league for five years. What would Jackson have accomplished if that hip wouldn't have popped? In the same way that Jackson was an unparalleled athletic freak of nature, blessed with the build of a linebacker and the speed of a horse, Tyson had the strength of a silverback and the ferocity of a Tiger. Unfortunately, we never got to see him peak.
On the other hand, Ali's greatness is defined basically by two fights, "The Thrilla in Manilla", and "The Rumble In The Jungle". His fight against Foreman was without a doubt, a great accomplishment, and it proved how great his boxing skills were and how smart he was in the ring. "The Thrilla in Manilla" proved that he had a great chin, and a lot of heart. However, the fact that Ali asked to have his gloves cut off at the end of the 14th round, while Frazier wanted to continue fighting but lost when his trainer threw in the towel, proves that perhaps we've elevated Ali in our minds to a level of immortality that is a bit unrealistic. If Ken Norton broke Ali's jaw, can you imagine what one of those bombs from Tyson could have done? Ali has seen power before, no doubt. But did he ever see somebody with equal, if not greater power than Smokin' Joe Frazier and speed that almost matched his own? Likewise, if Tyson was not mentally strong enough to deal with the illegal headbutts from Holyfield, how would he survive the endless trash talk from Ali? Who knows...

The bottom line is that Tyson never came close to hitting his potential. Ali accomplished enough in his career to be called the GOAT, there's no doubt about that. But in the same way as Jordan, he is looked upon as an immortal sports figure in our society. The fact that he is now looked upon as a mythical sports hero makes it totally unfair to compare him to Tyson. because at the end of the day he is only human but people seem to think otherwise.


A few issues with that:

1. You can't really compare Jackson's career ending injury to Mike's problems. Mike was always a bully, and it was only Cus that kept him on the straight and narrow. He never learned to control himself, or to actually box at a level commensurate with his talents. That's on Mike, not some injury. He knew he was bi-polar, but he sought no help. You can rest assured Bo would have taken any treatment possible to get back on the field.

2. It's a bit disingenuous (although I don't think deliberately) to bring up Norton breaking Ali's jaw. Aside from the freak possibilities (Such as when Bynum broke Wallace's ribs), you also leave out the fact that Ali stayed in the fight, and won.

3. Leaving aside the probabilities of Norton's shot, most experts will tell you that Norton, Quarry, even Foreman were harder punchers than Tyson. He packed a load, but the idea that it was unprecedented is pure myth. Heck, I bet Frazier had nearly as good a punch. What Ali did in the two fights you mentioned was to take more punishment than he likely would have ever seen against iron Mike.

4. Tyson was short on the skills necessary to take Ali, and Ali was long on the skills to take Mike. Mike never advanced beyond a shock-and-awe type of fighter, one who steamrolled his opponents quickly. His defense was good as long as he was coming forward and you were running or standing there. Douglass showed that if you had a reasonable chin, lack of fear, and a combination of length and angles, you could hit mike nearly at will. If you could last a few rounds and fight back, Mike tired and became frustrated, becoming even wilder and easier to hit. Also, I know it's heresy to say this, but Mike's chin was suspect. Most fighters couldn't get to it early, and couldn't last long enough to exploit it, or else didn't have the power to do so. Ali had all three in spades.



Plus to say that Ali's greatness as a boxer rested chiefly on 2 bouts he had when he was past his prime completely ignores his mind-boggling talent. There has never been a boxer his size with his had speed or skill set.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 5:22 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
A few issues with that:

1. You can't really compare Jackson's career ending injury to Mike's problems. Mike was always a bully, and it was only Cus that kept him on the straight and narrow. He never learned to control himself, or to actually box at a level commensurate with his talents. That's on Mike, not some injury. He knew he was bi-polar, but he sought no help. You can rest assured Bo would have taken any treatment possible to get back on the field.

2. It's a bit disingenuous (although I don't think deliberately) to bring up Norton breaking Ali's jaw. Aside from the freak possibilities (Such as when Bynum broke Wallace's ribs), you also leave out the fact that Ali stayed in the fight, and won.

3. Leaving aside the probabilities of Norton's shot, most experts will tell you that Norton, Quarry, even Foreman were harder punchers than Tyson. He packed a load, but the idea that it was unprecedented is pure myth. Heck, I bet Frazier had nearly as good a punch. What Ali did in the two fights you mentioned was to take more punishment than he likely would have ever seen against iron Mike.

4. Tyson was short on the skills necessary to take Ali, and Ali was long on the skills to take Mike. Mike never advanced beyond a shock-and-awe type of fighter, one who steamrolled his opponents quickly. His defense was good as long as he was coming forward and you were running or standing there. Douglass showed that if you had a reasonable chin, lack of fear, and a combination of length and angles, you could hit mike nearly at will. If you could last a few rounds and fight back, Mike tired and became frustrated, becoming even wilder and easier to hit. Also, I know it's heresy to say this, but Mike's chin was suspect. Most fighters couldn't get to it early, and couldn't last long enough to exploit it, or else didn't have the power to do so. Ali had all three in spades.


1. I agree completely that a lot of Mike's problems were his fault. He was totally out of control, in large part due to being bi-polar and refusing to take meds like so many of those types do. But that's beside the point. My point was that we never saw Bo or Mike reach their full potential. I used Bo as an example because he was another guy with jaw dropping natural ability-He had that "holy Sh*t " factor.

2. Norton won that fight. check the history. Ali won the next two fights. The Bynum-Wallace comparison isn't valid because that was an unfortunate, freak accident. When punching someone in the face is one of the main objectives in a sport, there's a pretty good chance somebody's jaw might get broken.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 5:30 pm    Post subject:

TrueWarrior wrote:
Quote:
A few issues with that:

1. You can't really compare Jackson's career ending injury to Mike's problems. Mike was always a bully, and it was only Cus that kept him on the straight and narrow. He never learned to control himself, or to actually box at a level commensurate with his talents. That's on Mike, not some injury. He knew he was bi-polar, but he sought no help. You can rest assured Bo would have taken any treatment possible to get back on the field.

2. It's a bit disingenuous (although I don't think deliberately) to bring up Norton breaking Ali's jaw. Aside from the freak possibilities (Such as when Bynum broke Wallace's ribs), you also leave out the fact that Ali stayed in the fight, and won.

3. Leaving aside the probabilities of Norton's shot, most experts will tell you that Norton, Quarry, even Foreman were harder punchers than Tyson. He packed a load, but the idea that it was unprecedented is pure myth. Heck, I bet Frazier had nearly as good a punch. What Ali did in the two fights you mentioned was to take more punishment than he likely would have ever seen against iron Mike.

4. Tyson was short on the skills necessary to take Ali, and Ali was long on the skills to take Mike. Mike never advanced beyond a shock-and-awe type of fighter, one who steamrolled his opponents quickly. His defense was good as long as he was coming forward and you were running or standing there. Douglass showed that if you had a reasonable chin, lack of fear, and a combination of length and angles, you could hit mike nearly at will. If you could last a few rounds and fight back, Mike tired and became frustrated, becoming even wilder and easier to hit. Also, I know it's heresy to say this, but Mike's chin was suspect. Most fighters couldn't get to it early, and couldn't last long enough to exploit it, or else didn't have the power to do so. Ali had all three in spades.


1. I agree completely that a lot of Mike's problems were his fault. He was totally out of control, in large part due to being bi-polar and refusing to take meds like so many of those types do. But that's beside the point. My point was that we never saw Bo or Mike reach their full potential. I used Bo as an example because he was another guy with jaw dropping natural ability-He had that "holy Sh*t " factor.
2. Norton won that fight. check the history. Ali won the next two fights. The Bynum-Wallace comparison isn't valid because that was an unfortunate, freak accident. When punching someone in the face is one of the main objectives in a sport, there's a pretty good chance somebody's jaw might get broken.


My bad on who won that fight. But it stands that he was able to continue. Pretty tough dude.

How often are jaws broken in pro fights? Not too often, and Ali took a lot more punishment from big hitters, so I'll stand by it being somewhat of a freak occurrence.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 5:48 pm    Post subject:

KobeBryantCliffordBrown wrote:
24 wrote:
TrueWarrior wrote:
Quote:
Interesting debate. I'll just add my two cents.


Quote:
Ali would absolutely kill Iron Mike. I mean seriously kill him. He'd make him quite by the 5th round.Mike Tyson had no heart... Mike Tyson would of never survived a fight like the Ali/Frazier fight in he Manilla... NEVER!! His mental make-up would not allow him to put his body through a fight like that.... Mike is one of the greats of all time... but he not above Ali


Tyson is a different animal. It isn't fair to try and theorize what might have happened if he fought Ali, because there are just too many variables that could have dramatically changed the outcome of the fight.

Mike Tyson never reached his potential-Scratch that, he never even came close to it. In a recent interview Mike said that once Cus D'amato died (Tyson was 19) a part of him died too. D'amato was the only person in his life that he trusted, and the only person that really cared about him. Once D'Amato was gone, Tyson became a ticking time-bomb. The man was clinically diagnosed with bi-polar disorder back in 1988, and it never helped that by this point in time, almost everyone in his life would eventually find some way to exploit him for money and fame. Of course a man like that would be mentally unstable. If you've ever heard anything about Tyson's life, you'd understand why. In all fairness, to say that Ali is greater than Tyson is like saying that Jim Brown was a much better running back than Bo Jackson. Sure, Brown may have accomplished more than Jackson, but Jackson's career was cut short by a devastating injury after only playing in the league for five years. What would Jackson have accomplished if that hip wouldn't have popped? In the same way that Jackson was an unparalleled athletic freak of nature, blessed with the build of a linebacker and the speed of a horse, Tyson had the strength of a silverback and the ferocity of a Tiger. Unfortunately, we never got to see him peak.
On the other hand, Ali's greatness is defined basically by two fights, "The Thrilla in Manilla", and "The Rumble In The Jungle". His fight against Foreman was without a doubt, a great accomplishment, and it proved how great his boxing skills were and how smart he was in the ring. "The Thrilla in Manilla" proved that he had a great chin, and a lot of heart. However, the fact that Ali asked to have his gloves cut off at the end of the 14th round, while Frazier wanted to continue fighting but lost when his trainer threw in the towel, proves that perhaps we've elevated Ali in our minds to a level of immortality that is a bit unrealistic. If Ken Norton broke Ali's jaw, can you imagine what one of those bombs from Tyson could have done? Ali has seen power before, no doubt. But did he ever see somebody with equal, if not greater power than Smokin' Joe Frazier and speed that almost matched his own? Likewise, if Tyson was not mentally strong enough to deal with the illegal headbutts from Holyfield, how would he survive the endless trash talk from Ali? Who knows...

The bottom line is that Tyson never came close to hitting his potential. Ali accomplished enough in his career to be called the GOAT, there's no doubt about that. But in the same way as Jordan, he is looked upon as an immortal sports figure in our society. The fact that he is now looked upon as a mythical sports hero makes it totally unfair to compare him to Tyson. because at the end of the day he is only human but people seem to think otherwise.


A few issues with that:

1. You can't really compare Jackson's career ending injury to Mike's problems. Mike was always a bully, and it was only Cus that kept him on the straight and narrow. He never learned to control himself, or to actually box at a level commensurate with his talents. That's on Mike, not some injury. He knew he was bi-polar, but he sought no help. You can rest assured Bo would have taken any treatment possible to get back on the field.

2. It's a bit disingenuous (although I don't think deliberately) to bring up Norton breaking Ali's jaw. Aside from the freak possibilities (Such as when Bynum broke Wallace's ribs), you also leave out the fact that Ali stayed in the fight, and won.

3. Leaving aside the probabilities of Norton's shot, most experts will tell you that Norton, Quarry, even Foreman were harder punchers than Tyson. He packed a load, but the idea that it was unprecedented is pure myth. Heck, I bet Frazier had nearly as good a punch. What Ali did in the two fights you mentioned was to take more punishment than he likely would have ever seen against iron Mike.

4. Tyson was short on the skills necessary to take Ali, and Ali was long on the skills to take Mike. Mike never advanced beyond a shock-and-awe type of fighter, one who steamrolled his opponents quickly. His defense was good as long as he was coming forward and you were running or standing there. Douglass showed that if you had a reasonable chin, lack of fear, and a combination of length and angles, you could hit mike nearly at will. If you could last a few rounds and fight back, Mike tired and became frustrated, becoming even wilder and easier to hit. Also, I know it's heresy to say this, but Mike's chin was suspect. Most fighters couldn't get to it early, and couldn't last long enough to exploit it, or else didn't have the power to do so. Ali had all three in spades.



Plus to say that Ali's greatness as a boxer rested chiefly on 2 bouts he had when he was past his prime completely ignores his mind-boggling talent. There has never been a boxer his size with his had speed or skill set.


Two fights.... that's crazy talk... You have the two Liston Fights, three Frazier Fights, Floyd Paterson, Foreman, and Spinks, and those are just the ones off the top of my head.

Also factor in as great as Ali was... he was prohibited to fight during his prime, and still look at what he accomplished!!!


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TNLakersFanInLA
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 7:03 pm    Post subject:

Ali
Ali
Ali
Ali
and Ali
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:15 pm    Post subject:

Hell Ernie Shavers was the hardest hitting dude in Ali's era and would dominate that heavies of this era.

Ali not only kicked the ass of fighters in the ring; he straight punked the United States Gub'ment ........ LOL
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:23 pm    Post subject:

Suffice it to say that Ali never got knocked out, much less by a "journeyman" like Douglass, and never got beaten senseless by a bulked up cruiserweight (Holyfield).

BTW, I have to laugh when I see Tyson and Mayweather Jr. being touted as the best ever in their weight classes.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 5:49 pm    Post subject:

24 wrote:
Suffice it to say that Ali never got knocked out, much less by a "journeyman" like Douglass, and never got beaten senseless by a bulked up cruiserweight (Holyfield).

BTW, I have to laugh when I see Tyson and Mayweather Jr. being touted as the best ever in their weight classes.


I hope you understand that I never once said Tyson was the best ever. I was just trying to defend the idea that Kid Dynamite might give Ali a run for his money if there was a time machine that brought both fighters back to their prime ( if Tyson ever even had one). FYI, I can think of a long list of fighters who would punk Mayweather Jr...
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 6:00 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
Plus to say that Ali's greatness as a boxer rested chiefly on 2 bouts he had when he was past his prime completely ignores his mind-boggling talent. There has never been a boxer his size with his had speed or skill set.


Let me ask you this: If Ali had lost either of those fights, or both, would we remember him the same way today? If Joe's trainer doesn't throw in the towel and Ali quits like he was asking to do after round 14, he loses that fight, and Smokin Joe wins two out of three fights against him. What if Foreman destroyed him similar to the way Frazier was embarassed? We still consider him an all time great, but it would be questionable to call him the GOAT. The outcome of those two fights are what cemented his status as a legendary fighter..The Greatest of All time.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 12:40 pm    Post subject:

TrueWarrior wrote:
24 wrote:
Suffice it to say that Ali never got knocked out, much less by a "journeyman" like Douglass, and never got beaten senseless by a bulked up cruiserweight (Holyfield).

BTW, I have to laugh when I see Tyson and Mayweather Jr. being touted as the best ever in their weight classes.


I hope you understand that I never once said Tyson was the best ever. I was just trying to defend the idea that Kid Dynamite might give Ali a run for his money if there was a time machine that brought both fighters back to their prime ( if Tyson ever even had one). FYI, I can think of a long list of fighters who would punk Mayweather Jr...


That wasn't directed at you. I was just reading back through the thread.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2009 5:10 pm    Post subject:

TrueWarrior wrote:
Quote:
Plus to say that Ali's greatness as a boxer rested chiefly on 2 bouts he had when he was past his prime completely ignores his mind-boggling talent. There has never been a boxer his size with his had speed or skill set.


Let me ask you this: If Ali had lost either of those fights, or both, would we remember him the same way today? If Joe's trainer doesn't throw in the towel and Ali quits like he was asking to do after round 14, he loses that fight, and Smokin Joe wins two out of three fights against him. What if Foreman destroyed him similar to the way Frazier was embarassed? We still consider him an all time great, but it would be questionable to call him the GOAT. The outcome of those two fights are what cemented his status as a legendary fighter..The Greatest of All time.



Not arguing that those fights cemented his rep. But without it's his incredible talent while young, combined with the passion he showed in his fight with the US Government, combined with those fights that made him the legend he is.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:07 am    Post subject:

Quote:
3. Leaving aside the probabilities of Norton's shot, most experts will tell you that Norton, Quarry, even Foreman were harder punchers than Tyson. He packed a load, but the idea that it was unprecedented is pure myth.


Not true. Most experts regarded Mike as one of the top 3 hitters ever. At worst, he was #2 behind Foreman. BUT - Experts also said that Mike's speed as a heavyweight was 2nd to ONLY Ali. Now, one man has the 2nd biggest punch and the 2nd fastest hands - Newton's Law comes into full effect at that point. THAT'S what made Mike ferocious - He was the scary blend of speed and power that NO HEAVEYWEIGHT ever had...plus, he was a bit looney.

Quote:
4. Tyson was short on the skills necessary to take Ali, and Ali was long on the skills to take Mike.


How much skill did Chuck Wepner have? How about Henry Cooper? Sonny Banks? All of whom knocked Ali down. So I'm pretty sure Mike would have "enough skills" to knock down - AND OUT - Ali. Ali wasn't this unhittable force.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:10 am    Post subject:

24 wrote:
Suffice it to say that Ali never got knocked out, much less by a "journeyman" like Douglass, and never got beaten senseless by a bulked up cruiserweight (Holyfield).

BTW, I have to laugh when I see Tyson and Mayweather Jr. being touted as the best ever in their weight classes.


Tyson I can see...but to laugh at Pretty Boy Floyd? I can't see how that's funny to imagine he was the best ever in his class. Undefeated pretty much guarantees a fighter in that discussion. Easily.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:23 am    Post subject:

LuxuryBrown wrote:
24 wrote:
Suffice it to say that Ali never got knocked out, much less by a "journeyman" like Douglass, and never got beaten senseless by a bulked up cruiserweight (Holyfield).

BTW, I have to laugh when I see Tyson and Mayweather Jr. being touted as the best ever in their weight classes.


Tyson I can see...but to laugh at Pretty Boy Floyd? I can't see how that's funny to imagine he was the best ever in his class. Undefeated pretty much guarantees a fighter in that discussion. Easily.


I think you mistake my point. I don't laugh at Mayweather, nor do I dispute his place as an all-time great. In fact, I rate him easily the best of his era. My point is that those who present him as the greatest ever at his weight, as if it is indisputable, lack knowledge of some pretty great boxers that came before him...
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:36 am    Post subject:

LuxuryBrown wrote:
Quote:
3. Leaving aside the probabilities of Norton's shot, most experts will tell you that Norton, Quarry, even Foreman were harder punchers than Tyson. He packed a load, but the idea that it was unprecedented is pure myth.


Not true. Most experts regarded Mike as one of the top 3 hitters ever. At worst, he was #2 behind Foreman. BUT - Experts also said that Mike's speed as a heavyweight was 2nd to ONLY Ali. Now, one man has the 2nd biggest punch and the 2nd fastest hands - Newton's Law comes into full effect at that point. THAT'S what made Mike ferocious - He was the scary blend of speed and power that NO HEAVEYWEIGHT ever had...plus, he was a bit looney.

Quote:
4. Tyson was short on the skills necessary to take Ali, and Ali was long on the skills to take Mike.


How much skill did Chuck Wepner have? How about Henry Cooper? Sonny Banks? All of whom knocked Ali down. So I'm pretty sure Mike would have "enough skills" to knock down - AND OUT - Ali. Ali wasn't this unhittable force.


I respect your right to have your opinion, but not to pass it off as the opinion of the experts, who typically rank Shavers, Liston, Foreman, Norton, Louis, Dempsey, and Marciano ahead of him for pure power. Tyson packed a wallop to be sure, but it was a combination of speed, intimidation, multiple blows, and sadly, generally poor competition that led to his appearance of hitting harder than he did.

As for skills, you don't really want to go there. Ali faced a bunch of boxers who not only hit harder than Tyson, but were better than any fighter Tyson ever faced. Once Douglass robbed Tyson of the mystique of inevitable doom, it became apparent that a fighter with heart, a decent chin, and good skills could beat him.

IMO (and I'm willing to state that it is opinion, not indisputable fact), Ali, Foreman, Frazier, Liston, and Holmes (perhaps the most underrated heavyweight of all time) would all, in their prime, be favored to beat Tyson.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:48 am    Post subject:

24 wrote:
LuxuryBrown wrote:
Quote:
3. Leaving aside the probabilities of Norton's shot, most experts will tell you that Norton, Quarry, even Foreman were harder punchers than Tyson. He packed a load, but the idea that it was unprecedented is pure myth.


Not true. Most experts regarded Mike as one of the top 3 hitters ever. At worst, he was #2 behind Foreman. BUT - Experts also said that Mike's speed as a heavyweight was 2nd to ONLY Ali. Now, one man has the 2nd biggest punch and the 2nd fastest hands - Newton's Law comes into full effect at that point. THAT'S what made Mike ferocious - He was the scary blend of speed and power that NO HEAVEYWEIGHT ever had...plus, he was a bit looney.

Quote:
4. Tyson was short on the skills necessary to take Ali, and Ali was long on the skills to take Mike.


How much skill did Chuck Wepner have? How about Henry Cooper? Sonny Banks? All of whom knocked Ali down. So I'm pretty sure Mike would have "enough skills" to knock down - AND OUT - Ali. Ali wasn't this unhittable force.


I respect your right to have your opinion, but not to pass it off as the opinion of the experts, who typically rank Shavers, Liston, Foreman, Norton, Louis, Dempsey, and Marciano ahead of him for pure power. Tyson packed a wallop to be sure, but it was a combination of speed, intimidation, multiple blows, and sadly, generally poor competition that led to his appearance of hitting harder than he did.

As for skills, you don't really want to go there. Ali faced a bunch of boxers who not only hit harder than Tyson, but were better than any fighter Tyson ever faced. Once Douglass robbed Tyson of the mystique of inevitable doom, it became apparent that a fighter with heart, a decent chin, and good skills could beat him.

IMO (and I'm willing to state that it is opinion, not indisputable fact), Ali, Foreman, Frazier, Liston, and Holmes (perhaps the most underrated heavyweight of all time) would all, in their prime, be favored to beat Tyson.


Ring magazine had him ranked that high in one of their polls a few years back, so those in fact were experts last I checked. But what does intimidation and competition have to do with Tyson's speed/power? You think those dudes were going down in a heap because they weren't "good competition" and not because Mike possessed the uncanny combo of power and speed?

And you're avoiding my question - If Ali's skills were so superior and impregnable, then why was he knocked down by lesser fighters than him, and lesser fighters than Tyson?
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 11:00 am    Post subject:

LuxuryBrown wrote:
24 wrote:
LuxuryBrown wrote:
Quote:
3. Leaving aside the probabilities of Norton's shot, most experts will tell you that Norton, Quarry, even Foreman were harder punchers than Tyson. He packed a load, but the idea that it was unprecedented is pure myth.


Not true. Most experts regarded Mike as one of the top 3 hitters ever. At worst, he was #2 behind Foreman. BUT - Experts also said that Mike's speed as a heavyweight was 2nd to ONLY Ali. Now, one man has the 2nd biggest punch and the 2nd fastest hands - Newton's Law comes into full effect at that point. THAT'S what made Mike ferocious - He was the scary blend of speed and power that NO HEAVEYWEIGHT ever had...plus, he was a bit looney.

Quote:
4. Tyson was short on the skills necessary to take Ali, and Ali was long on the skills to take Mike.


How much skill did Chuck Wepner have? How about Henry Cooper? Sonny Banks? All of whom knocked Ali down. So I'm pretty sure Mike would have "enough skills" to knock down - AND OUT - Ali. Ali wasn't this unhittable force.


I respect your right to have your opinion, but not to pass it off as the opinion of the experts, who typically rank Shavers, Liston, Foreman, Norton, Louis, Dempsey, and Marciano ahead of him for pure power. Tyson packed a wallop to be sure, but it was a combination of speed, intimidation, multiple blows, and sadly, generally poor competition that led to his appearance of hitting harder than he did.

As for skills, you don't really want to go there. Ali faced a bunch of boxers who not only hit harder than Tyson, but were better than any fighter Tyson ever faced. Once Douglass robbed Tyson of the mystique of inevitable doom, it became apparent that a fighter with heart, a decent chin, and good skills could beat him.

IMO (and I'm willing to state that it is opinion, not indisputable fact), Ali, Foreman, Frazier, Liston, and Holmes (perhaps the most underrated heavyweight of all time) would all, in their prime, be favored to beat Tyson.


Ring magazine had him ranked that high in one of their polls a few years back, so those in fact were experts last I checked. But what does intimidation and competition have to do with Tyson's speed/power? You think those dudes were going down in a heap because they weren't "good competition" and not because Mike possessed the uncanny combo of power and speed?

And you're avoiding my question - If Ali's skills were so superior and impregnable, then why was he knocked down by lesser fighters than him, and lesser fighters than Tyson?


I never saw that from ring. The one's I've seen have the fighters I listed ahead of Mike. The further we get from the immediacy of the Mike era, the lower and more correctly he is rated, IMO.

If you don't know what intimidation offers, you don't know boxing. It is true that a lot of fights are won or lost before the bell rings. Look at Michael Spinks. He could barely stand up before the opening bell. Mike's ferocity and carefully cultivated image as a ferocious killer had a lot to do with boxers giving up before he even got to them. He scared people, as much for his animalistic "eat your children" persona as for his skills. Also, it shouldn't be hard for you to see that beating a weak class of fighters might be easier than beating all-time greats. Quick, name one all-time great that Tyson beat...

I never disputed that he had power or speed. He had both in abundance, although I think you rate both higher than they were.

You know better than to think I would avoid your question. It's not my style. Ali got knocked down by some guys he shouldn't have, yet they couldn't put him out. In most cases, it was guys he didn't respect, and he was being laxadaisical in his approach. That's on him, and I don't make excuses for it. He could, like our Lakers, take weak opponents too lightly. That said, none of them ever knocked him out. Heck, he finished a fight with a broken jaw.

Funny how you talk about Ali getting knocked down by journeymen, but don't apply the same standard to Tyson getting knocked OUT by a similar character. You also don't acknowledge that once his invincible mystique was shattered, his vaunted ability to knock guys out also disappeared. And you also leave out the biggest difference between them: heart. If Tyson couldn't knock you out early, and you could fight back, he wilted. If you could fight back with any effect, he quit.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 11:21 am    Post subject:

24 wrote:
LuxuryBrown wrote:
24 wrote:
LuxuryBrown wrote:
Quote:
3. Leaving aside the probabilities of Norton's shot, most experts will tell you that Norton, Quarry, even Foreman were harder punchers than Tyson. He packed a load, but the idea that it was unprecedented is pure myth.


Not true. Most experts regarded Mike as one of the top 3 hitters ever. At worst, he was #2 behind Foreman. BUT - Experts also said that Mike's speed as a heavyweight was 2nd to ONLY Ali. Now, one man has the 2nd biggest punch and the 2nd fastest hands - Newton's Law comes into full effect at that point. THAT'S what made Mike ferocious - He was the scary blend of speed and power that NO HEAVEYWEIGHT ever had...plus, he was a bit looney.

Quote:
4. Tyson was short on the skills necessary to take Ali, and Ali was long on the skills to take Mike.


How much skill did Chuck Wepner have? How about Henry Cooper? Sonny Banks? All of whom knocked Ali down. So I'm pretty sure Mike would have "enough skills" to knock down - AND OUT - Ali. Ali wasn't this unhittable force.


I respect your right to have your opinion, but not to pass it off as the opinion of the experts, who typically rank Shavers, Liston, Foreman, Norton, Louis, Dempsey, and Marciano ahead of him for pure power. Tyson packed a wallop to be sure, but it was a combination of speed, intimidation, multiple blows, and sadly, generally poor competition that led to his appearance of hitting harder than he did.

As for skills, you don't really want to go there. Ali faced a bunch of boxers who not only hit harder than Tyson, but were better than any fighter Tyson ever faced. Once Douglass robbed Tyson of the mystique of inevitable doom, it became apparent that a fighter with heart, a decent chin, and good skills could beat him.

IMO (and I'm willing to state that it is opinion, not indisputable fact), Ali, Foreman, Frazier, Liston, and Holmes (perhaps the most underrated heavyweight of all time) would all, in their prime, be favored to beat Tyson.


Ring magazine had him ranked that high in one of their polls a few years back, so those in fact were experts last I checked. But what does intimidation and competition have to do with Tyson's speed/power? You think those dudes were going down in a heap because they weren't "good competition" and not because Mike possessed the uncanny combo of power and speed?

And you're avoiding my question - If Ali's skills were so superior and impregnable, then why was he knocked down by lesser fighters than him, and lesser fighters than Tyson?


I never saw that from ring. The one's I've seen have the fighters I listed ahead of Mike. The further we get from the immediacy of the Mike era, the lower and more correctly he is rated, IMO.

If you don't know what intimidation offers, you don't know boxing. It is true that a lot of fights are won or lost before the bell rings. Look at Michael Spinks. He could barely stand up before the opening bell. Mike's ferocity and carefully cultivated image as a ferocious killer had a lot to do with boxers giving up before he even got to them. He scared people, as much for his animalistic "eat your children" persona as for his skills. Also, it shouldn't be hard for you to see that beating a weak class of fighters might be easier than beating all-time greats. Quick, name one all-time great that Tyson beat...

I never disputed that he had power or speed. He had both in abundance, although I think you rate both higher than they were.

You know better than to think I would avoid your question. It's not my style. Ali got knocked down by some guys he shouldn't have, yet they couldn't put him out. In most cases, it was guys he didn't respect, and he was being laxadaisical in his approach. That's on him, and I don't make excuses for it. He could, like our Lakers, take weak opponents too lightly. That said, none of them ever knocked him out. Heck, he finished a fight with a broken jaw.

Funny how you talk about Ali getting knocked down by journeymen, but don't apply the same standard to Tyson getting knocked OUT by a similar character. You also don't acknowledge that once his invincible mystique was shattered, his vaunted ability to knock guys out also disappeared. And you also leave out the biggest difference between them: heart. If Tyson couldn't knock you out early, and you could fight back, he wilted. If you could fight back with any effect, he quit.


I don't see how "the further we get from Mike's era" has any bearing on the facts? If anything, his bizarre fall is what people seem to focus on more so than his years of dominance.

And again, far has nothing to do with how hard MIKE'S gonna hit a boxer, so I don't see the connection there at all. You're saying a scared boxer's fear magnifies another boxer's speed/power at which that boxer throws his punches with? And he beat some tomato cans just as every other great fighter did. Hell, Ali beat a VERY OLD Liston, yet some people won't admit to that. And Mike didn't beat any all time greats...but again, what does that have to do with his OWN speed/power? Are you saying it wasn't as fast/powerful since it wasn't against a Foreman or a Frazier? Explain that then.

And no, a lot of boxing heads rate Tyson's speed and power EASILY in the top 3, and most of them agree that he was the ONLY fighter with top speed and top power.

And you did avoid it, yo, that's why I had to ask you again. And my point wasn't "Did anyone ever finish off Ali?" it was a direct response to you saying that Tyson's skills wouldn't be enough to beat Ali, to which I countered that some lesser fighters than Ali have knocked him down, and if THEY can at least knock him down, then a much better and much skilled fighter like Tyson, who KNOWS how to finish, would be able to take out Ali. That was my point.

And show me where I said "Ali couldn't knock Tyson out". I didn't. So the same DOES in fact apply to Mike. My point was to shut down your point, that's all. And who said Ali would be able to go 12 rounds? We don't know. We know Mike was an "early rounds KO artist" so it's very possible that Ali would get dropped and KO'd within 4 rounds.

I'm just shocked at how some people believe that Ali was unbeatable and that Mike wouldn't even "hit" Ali, let alone knock him down or out.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 12:24 pm    Post subject:

LuxuryBrown wrote:


I don't see how "the further we get from Mike's era" has any bearing on the facts? If anything, his bizarre fall is what people seem to focus on more so than his years of dominance.

And again, far has nothing to do with how hard MIKE'S gonna hit a boxer, so I don't see the connection there at all. You're saying a scared boxer's fear magnifies another boxer's speed/power at which that boxer throws his punches with? And he beat some tomato cans just as every other great fighter did. Hell, Ali beat a VERY OLD Liston, yet some people won't admit to that. And Mike didn't beat any all time greats...but again, what does that have to do with his OWN speed/power? Are you saying it wasn't as fast/powerful since it wasn't against a Foreman or a Frazier? Explain that then.

And no, a lot of boxing heads rate Tyson's speed and power EASILY in the top 3, and most of them agree that he was the ONLY fighter with top speed and top power.

And you did avoid it, yo, that's why I had to ask you again. And my point wasn't "Did anyone ever finish off Ali?" it was a direct response to you saying that Tyson's skills wouldn't be enough to beat Ali, to which I countered that some lesser fighters than Ali have knocked him down, and if THEY can at least knock him down, then a much better and much skilled fighter like Tyson, who KNOWS how to finish, would be able to take out Ali. That was my point.

And show me where I said "Ali couldn't knock Tyson out". I didn't. So the same DOES in fact apply to Mike. My point was to shut down your point, that's all. And who said Ali would be able to go 12 rounds? We don't know. We know Mike was an "early rounds KO artist" so it's very possible that Ali would get dropped and KO'd within 4 rounds.

I'm just shocked at how some people believe that Ali was unbeatable and that Mike wouldn't even "hit" Ali, let alone knock him down or out.


Come on Lux. Don't run in circles and pretend i didn't answer you because you didn't like the answer.

Ali got knocked down by journeymen. I have agreed with this several times. I have also posited that he didn't take enough of the journeymen seriously, and paid a price. I have also pointed out, correctly, that those journeymen, while they knocked him down, didn't knock him out, and further, lost the fight. Your argument is that this points to the idea that Tyson would have knocked him out. This means you question Ali's chin. Yet against power punchers easily of Tyson's level, he never went out. Ali had an elite chin, and any analyst will back me up on that. Is it possible that Tyson could knock him out? Sure, but let's not confuse possible with probable, and the evidence does not support in any way the idea that Tyson would knock Ali out.

On the flip side, there's ample evidence that a boxer with Ali's chin and skill would defeat Mike, since guys with lesser chins and skills did so, repeatedly, after Mike's lack of heart and stamina was exposed.

Since i never said you said "Ali couldn't knock Tyson out", I'm going to discard that for the distracting straw man it is...

As for "finishing Ali off", you cherry pick journeymen catching him off guard, ignore that punchers of and above Mike's level couldn't finish him off, and assume that Ali would apparently treat Tyson like Wepner. Did you ever see the Thrilla in Manilla or the Rumble in the Jungle? Do you think Tyson would put more hurt than that on Ali? And yet he stood and won both fights.

Are you implying that Ali fought all those greats past their prime (or are you just cherry picking Liston)? Look at the ages of Frazier, Norton, and Foreman when he fought them, and that's just a partial list. He fought some guys past their prime (who is disputing that? Not me, yet you argue as if i did), but he fought a lot of guys, each better than any Tyson opponent, in their prime. Foreman, for example, was 25 at the Rumble in the Jungle. Old? Hah! Still waiting for you to show me who, in their prime, were the great boxers Tyson beat...

That brings us to era. It is safe to say that Tyson dominated a very weak era. I agree he dominated it. I agree he had great power. I agree he had great speed. I also know he mostly beat inferior fighters who were physically afraid of him, and yes, that does have a big effect. If you don't see that a scared fighter is easier to knock out than a fearless one, you probably don't understand boxing. Doesn't make his power less, but it might lead an unsophisticated observer to magnify it. That's why he loses place over time. As the moment passes, analysts start to look at things like strength of the era and opponents. Ali continues to hold his place, Mike does not.

In the end, I'm not arguing that Tyson couldn't beat Ali, merely that the evidence says he wouldn't, and on that I have most if not all of the experts with me. Tyson had raw power on Ali, no doubt. Hand speed was pretty close (something I agree most Ali fans don't give Mike proper credit for). Everything else favored Ali. Chin? Ali. Reach? Ali. Skills? Ali. Heart? Ali. Brains? Ali. Style (relative to opponent's strengths and weaknesses)? Ali.

Here's a quote that sums it up. It's by a boxing observer who chronicles a what-if of Tyson vs. 5 greats:

Quote:
Undoubtedly many of you are upset that I don’t see Mike winning one of these match-ups; but think before you spew off a tirade of expletives that would make a sailor blush. The fact of the matter is this: Mike Tyson’s career will ultimately be seen as incomplete. He never achieved his potential because something of finer quality was missing. Once you got past the power and the extraordinary ability, there was a big gaping hole. Said hole, is why he never came back to win a fight he was behind in, said hole is why he bit off Holyfield’s ear when it became obvious to him that Evander was about to embarrass him again, and said hole is why he could never beat the game’s immortals.

Where he was empty as a fighter, they were overflowing with the intangible qualities of heart and will to win, or simply put….belief in one’s self. Tyson exuded arrogance and self-confidence; but I submit it was the equivalent of a scared child whistling in the graveyard. If you look at the amateur Mike Tyson that cried before his bouts out of fear of losing, you will see an athlete filled with self doubt, a man, who as a professional had no answers when plan “A” didn’t work. I’m not hating on Tyson. I’m calling it as I see it. In the end, Mike was an incomplete fighter and no incomplete fighter can beat a complete one. Mike was very good and very close to great; but close only counts in…..well, you know.



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 12:47 pm    Post subject:

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Come on Lux. Don't run in circles and pretend i didn't answer you because you didn't like the answer.


Dude, show me in your initial response where you answered my question because I certainly don't see ANY reference to my question. There's nothing there.

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Ali got knocked down by journeymen. I have agreed with this several times. I have also posited that he didn't take enough of the journeymen seriously, and paid a price. I have also pointed out, correctly, that those journeymen, while they knocked him down, didn't knock him out, and further, lost the fight. Your argument is that this points to the idea that Tyson would have knocked him out. This means you question Ali's chin. Yet against power punchers easily of Tyson's level, he never went out. Ali had an elite chin, and any analyst will back me up on that. Is it possible that Tyson could knock him out? Sure, but let's not confuse possible with probable, and the evidence does not support in any way the idea that Tyson would knock Ali out.


But that's just it...if he got knocked down by journeymen, then why can't you fathom Mike knocking him down? Is Mike a journeyman? No. Mike's one of the top 10 heavyweights of all time. I just don't get why you keep making it seem as if the journeymen were either good or lucky enough to do so, that Mike - a top 10 heavyweight - wouldn't be able to do so. It doesn't add up, yo. Elite chin or not. And what "evidence" do you have that DOESN'T support Mike couldn't knock Ali out? You have nothing but opinion, which is all ANY of us have in this mythical matchup.

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On the flip side, there's ample evidence that a boxer with Ali's chin and skill would defeat Mike, since guys with lesser chins and skills did so, repeatedly, after Mike's lack of heart and stamina was exposed.


That's not "evidence" that's speculation. Again, that's all ANY of us have. There's no way anyone here can POSITIVELY SAY what would happen since it NEVER happened to begin with.

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As for "finishing Ali off", you cherry pick journeymen catching him off guard, ignore that punchers of and above Mike's level couldn't finish him off, and assume that Ali would apparently treat Tyson like Wepner. Did you ever see the Thrilla in Manilla or the Rumble in the Jungle? Do you think Tyson would put more hurt than that on Ali? And yet he stood and won both fights.


That underlined part is interesting, because you act as if it's unfathomable that Ali was caught "off guard" - as if you were there. Is it a possibility? Yes. Can you guarantee it? No. No one here can, unless they were there. Then there's this - who said Tyson wouldn't be able to catch him "off guard"? How can slugs do it but not a top 10 heavyweight? That doesn't add up either.

And yeah, I think Mike WOULD put more hurt on Ali because he was faster than George and a better defensive fighter than George and better skilled overall than George. I also see him putting in more work on Ali than Smokin', because he was faster than Joe and better defensively.

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Are you implying that Ali fought all those greats past their prime (or are you just cherry picking Liston)? Look at the ages of Frazier, Norton, and Foreman when he fought them, and that's just a partial list. He fought some guys past their prime (who is disputing that? Not me, yet you argue as if i did), but he fought a lot of guys, each better than any Tyson opponent, in their prime. Foreman, for example, was 25 at the Rumble in the Jungle. Old? Hah! Still waiting for you to show me who, in their prime, were the great boxers Tyson beat...


Did you see me imply that? No. I just spoke of Sonny. The same way people speak of Holmes wiping out Ali back in 78. My point was, all great fighters fight tomato cans throughout their careers and they sometimes catch an aging great that they beat on. Ali just had 1 GREAT rival that stands out - Frazier. Norton was overrated. Foreman had no killer instinct. Who was left? Seriously? That's the thing people like to do - live off the BIG FIGHTS but not talk about the tomato cans. And I already answered your question.

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That brings us to era. It is safe to say that Tyson dominated a very weak era. I agree he dominated it. I agree he had great power. I agree he had great speed. I also know he mostly beat inferior fighters who were physically afraid of him, and yes, that does have a big effect. If you don't see that a scared fighter is easier to knock out than a fearless one, you probably don't understand boxing. Doesn't make his power less, but it might lead an unsophisticated observer to magnify it. That's why he loses place over time. As the moment passes, analysts start to look at things like strength of the era and opponents. Ali continues to hold his place, Mike does not.


Have you ever boxed?...Fear is usually a good ally to have because it keeps you focused, but when a boxer's overwhelmed by a superior fighter, then it doesn't matter how fearful or courageous that boxer is, he's still gonna catch a bad one. Again, there's absolutely nothing that supports your theory that these guys get hit harder or beat badder simply based on "fear". In fact, why ARE they scared then?...Answer: Because Mike WAS REAL - the speed, power, skills, and ferociousness, that's why.

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In the end, I'm not arguing that Tyson couldn't beat Ali, merely that the evidence says he wouldn't, and on that I have most if not all of the experts with me. Tyson had raw power on Ali, no doubt. Hand speed was pretty close (something I agree most Ali fans don't give Mike proper credit for). Everything else favored Ali. Chin? Ali. Reach? Ali. Skills? Ali. Heart? Ali. Brains? Ali. Style (relative to opponent's strengths and weaknesses)? Ali.


There's no evidence that says either way. Evidence supports facts. There is no factual existence than Ali would beat Mike or Mike would beat Ali. It's pure speculation on both ends. The evidence may support your argument but it certainly doesn't support your claim that Ali would beat Mike.
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Omar Little
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 1:54 pm    Post subject:

LuxuryBrown wrote:
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Come on Lux. Don't run in circles and pretend i didn't answer you because you didn't like the answer.


Dude, show me in your initial response where you answered my question because I certainly don't see ANY reference to my question. There's nothing there.

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Ali got knocked down by journeymen. I have agreed with this several times. I have also posited that he didn't take enough of the journeymen seriously, and paid a price. I have also pointed out, correctly, that those journeymen, while they knocked him down, didn't knock him out, and further, lost the fight. Your argument is that this points to the idea that Tyson would have knocked him out. This means you question Ali's chin. Yet against power punchers easily of Tyson's level, he never went out. Ali had an elite chin, and any analyst will back me up on that. Is it possible that Tyson could knock him out? Sure, but let's not confuse possible with probable, and the evidence does not support in any way the idea that Tyson would knock Ali out.


But that's just it...if he got knocked down by journeymen, then why can't you fathom Mike knocking him down? Is Mike a journeyman? No. Mike's one of the top 10 heavyweights of all time. I just don't get why you keep making it seem as if the journeymen were either good or lucky enough to do so, that Mike - a top 10 heavyweight - wouldn't be able to do so. It doesn't add up, yo. Elite chin or not. And what "evidence" do you have that DOESN'T support Mike couldn't knock Ali out? You have nothing but opinion, which is all ANY of us have in this mythical matchup.

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On the flip side, there's ample evidence that a boxer with Ali's chin and skill would defeat Mike, since guys with lesser chins and skills did so, repeatedly, after Mike's lack of heart and stamina was exposed.


That's not "evidence" that's speculation. Again, that's all ANY of us have. There's no way anyone here can POSITIVELY SAY what would happen since it NEVER happened to begin with.

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As for "finishing Ali off", you cherry pick journeymen catching him off guard, ignore that punchers of and above Mike's level couldn't finish him off, and assume that Ali would apparently treat Tyson like Wepner. Did you ever see the Thrilla in Manilla or the Rumble in the Jungle? Do you think Tyson would put more hurt than that on Ali? And yet he stood and won both fights.


That underlined part is interesting, because you act as if it's unfathomable that Ali was caught "off guard" - as if you were there. You weren't. Is it a possibility? Yes. Can you guarantee it? No. No one here can, unless they were there. Then there's this - who said Tyson wouldn't be able to catch him "off guard"? How can slugs do it but not a top 10 heavyweight? That doesn't add up either.

And yeah, I think Mike WOULD put more hurt on Ali because he was faster than George and a better defensive fighter than George and better skilled overall than George. I also see him putting in more work on Ali than Smokin', because he was faster than Joe and better defensively.

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Are you implying that Ali fought all those greats past their prime (or are you just cherry picking Liston)? Look at the ages of Frazier, Norton, and Foreman when he fought them, and that's just a partial list. He fought some guys past their prime (who is disputing that? Not me, yet you argue as if i did), but he fought a lot of guys, each better than any Tyson opponent, in their prime. Foreman, for example, was 25 at the Rumble in the Jungle. Old? Hah! Still waiting for you to show me who, in their prime, were the great boxers Tyson beat...


Did you see me imply that? No. I just spoke of Sonny. The same way people speak of Holmes wiping out Ali back in 78. My point was, all great fighters fight tomato cans throughout their careers. Ali just had 1 GREAT rival that stands out - Frazier. Norton was overrated. Foreman had no killer instinct. Who was left? That's the thing people like to do - live off the BIG FIGHTS but not talk about the tomato cans. And I already answered your question.

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That brings us to era. It is safe to say that Tyson dominated a very weak era. I agree he dominated it. I agree he had great power. I agree he had great speed. I also know he mostly beat inferior fighters who were physically afraid of him, and yes, that does have a big effect. If you don't see that a scared fighter is easier to knock out than a fearless one, you probably don't understand boxing. Doesn't make his power less, but it might lead an unsophisticated observer to magnify it. That's why he loses place over time. As the moment passes, analysts start to look at things like strength of the era and opponents. Ali continues to hold his place, Mike does not.


Was Ali scared when he got knocked down by Wepner? See how none of that holds any water? Have you ever boxed? Fear is usually a good ally to have because it keeps you focused, but when a boxer's overwhelmed by a superior fighter, then it doesn't matter how fearful or courageous that boxer is, he's still gonna catch a bad one. Again, there's absolutely nothing that supports your theory that these guys get hit harder or beat badder simply based on "fear". In fact, why AR they scared then?...because Mike WAS REAL - the speed, power, skills, and ferociousness.

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In the end, I'm not arguing that Tyson couldn't beat Ali, merely that the evidence says he wouldn't, and on that I have most if not all of the experts with me. Tyson had raw power on Ali, no doubt. Hand speed was pretty close (something I agree most Ali fans don't give Mike proper credit for). Everything else favored Ali. Chin? Ali. Reach? Ali. Skills? Ali. Heart? Ali. Brains? Ali. Style (relative to opponent's strengths and weaknesses)? Ali.


There's no evidence that says either way. Evidence supports facts. There is no factual existence than Ali would beat Mike or Mike would beat Ali. It's pure speculation on both ends. The evidence may support your argument but it certainly doesn't support your claim that Ali would beat Mike.


Check the thread. I have repeatedly offered why Ali got knocked down. You disagree. Fine, but don't act like it hasn't been repeatedly answered.

And I can fathom Mike knocking him down, but I think it's less likely than Wepner. Why? Because the fighters greater than Wepner seemed to have problems doing it. Why? Because Ali against a real opponent was vastly different than Ali vs. a Wepner. That has evidence behind it. Would you say Utah will beat LA this series because LA lost a game to Sacramento? Why not? Utah's certainly better than Sac, and has playoff experience and killer instinct. Perhaps it's because a relatively meaningless game against Sacramento has less of LA's attention than a playoff series against Utah. And I never acted as if Ali getting caught off guard was unfathomable. Quite the opposite, I explained exactly why.

As for the fear angle, you again mix apples and oranges. If a fighter gets beat because he's afraid, it doesn't imply that all boxers get beat because they are afraid. That's a third-grade logic problem. Similarly, a fighter being afraid having a strong correlation to his getting beat and knocked out is not in any way antithetical to the fact that his opponent has power. Sure Mike had power, top 10 all time power. That was never my dispute. The fact that he knocked out tomato cans almost exclusively, and the fact that they were scared of his power doesn't mean he didn't have power. It just didn't mean he had the most power. Spinks actually being physically wobbly before Tyson hit him at all does bear on how easy he was to knock out. Ali getting knocked down by Wepner does not have to mean Ali was afraid of Wepner in order for Spinks to have been afraid of Tyson, or for that to contribute to Tyson knocking him down and out. Both can easily exist exclusive of the other, as you well know.

Tyson, sadly wasn't very skilled. Talented, but not very skilled. He had brute force, quickness, and straight ahead defense/offense. That's it. If you could keep your wits, not stand toe to toe, use the angles, and take a punch, you could fight him. The fact that most guys either stood there or ran made it easy for him. Douglas was the first to figure how to counter, to keep him at bay, to use the angles. After that, Mike was easy prey for good but not great boxers.

BTW, as a former boxer (35-2 in the military), I dispute your view of fear. You can have fear, but you can't operate on it. If you can't rise above it, you're toast, almost without exception. Good boxers never operate on fear. They are aware of it, but they master it. You can't be afraid in the ring. Before, yes, but you have to make your plan, believe in it, and put the fear away before the bell. If you walk into the ring afraid, you walk into the ring 3/4 of the way to being beaten, and a scrub can provide the other 1/4.

Again, the fact that they were afraid doesn't make Mike unpowerful, but it makes it eminently easier for him to apply that power, because rather than trying to beat him, they're trying not to get killed. That was the difference with Douglas. Perhaps stupidly, he believed he could win, and so he didn't run or cover up, he fought his fight. That was the difference. Heart. He wasn't the most skilled opponent Mike fought, he was merely the first with adequate skills and a belief that he was going to win. I agree that a fighter can't necessarily beat another simply through lack of fear. But a scared fighter will lose to an unfearful one of even somewhat inferior skill/talent 9 times out of 10.

While we're at it, you can't hide behind possible and say it outweighs probable, speculative or not. It's possible that I could beat MJ one-on-one. It's not probable, and we don't need for a match to happen to have enough evidence to place that probability.

You also need to understand the concept of evidence. Evidence is things we do know, and we can relate things we know to similar areas where we don't have knowledge. We don't have to have Ali fight Morrison, for example, to know that Ali was a better fighter. We don't have to preclude all mathematical possibility that Morrison could beat Ali to posit that Ali would beat Morrison. That's certainly a speculative proposition, but it's anything but subjective.

Sure there's going to be speculation when something can't happen, but predicting it based on objective evidence, however speculative the projection into the unknown, will always trump predicting it on subjective opinion that has no roots in the evidence we do have.

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The evidence may support your argument but it certainly doesn't support your claim


I rest my case...
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 3:27 pm    Post subject:

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Check the thread. I have repeatedly offered why Ali got knocked down. You disagree. Fine, but don't act like it hasn't been repeatedly answered.


Check your very 1st response. You didn't answer at all. But that's done with now.

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And I can fathom Mike knocking him down, but I think it's less likely than Wepner. Why? Because the fighters greater than Wepner seemed to have problems doing it. Why? Because Ali against a real opponent was vastly different than Ali vs. a Wepner. That has evidence behind it. Would you say Utah will beat LA this series because LA lost a game to Sacramento? Why not? Utah's certainly better than Sac, and has playoff experience and killer instinct. Perhaps it's because a relatively meaningless game against Sacramento has less of LA's attention than a playoff series against Utah. And I never acted as if Ali getting caught off guard was unfathomable. Quite the opposite, I explained exactly why.


Wow. Just...wow. You can't REALLY believe that Tyson would have a HARDER time than Wepner in knocking down Ali? Wow, bro. To say that it ONLY happened because Ali WASN'T fighting a good opponent really doesn't hold any weight. And you can't compare a team sport with an individual sport. THAT'S apples and oranges right there. But ok, we're done here. We'll just agree to disagree.
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