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Who was the best (G/SF) defender of all time? |
Michael Cooper |
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42% |
[ 51 ] |
Scottie Pippen |
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37% |
[ 45 ] |
Chucky Atkins |
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20% |
[ 24 ] |
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Total Votes : 120 |
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Billy Thompson Starting Rotation
Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 109 Location: Anaheim, CA
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Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 1:31 pm Post subject: Best defender: Scottie Pippen vs. Michael Cooper |
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Since Pippen's name was brought up frequently during his rumored position on Phil's staff, I've heard him refered to as the "best defensive player of all time" to the best "all around player" in several articles.
Defense-wise, how does he stack up? Before you even consider him, you'd have to immediately think of the standard: Michael Cooper.
At 6'7" 180 lbs, Coop had the length and quickness to shut down opposing point guards, shooting guards, and small forwards. His small frame and quick feet allowed him to slide through picks and chase small guards like Isiah Thomas and John Stockton while having the height and wingspan to cover Larry Bird. During Bird's retirement, he refered to Coop as the best that ever guarded him. One of his trademark defensive highlights was when he would come from behind a player during a fastbreak and block their layup.
Honors
Defensive player of the year: 1 time, 1987
NBA All-defensive 1st team: 5 times
NBA All-defensive 2nd team: 3 times
On the other hand, Scottie Pippen was finally recognized for his defensive abilities after going after Magic Johnson aggressively (and illegally, IMO) in the 1991 finals. After beating the Lakers 4-1, Magic’s inability to dominate was credited to Scottie’s defense. Against the Pacers in 1998, Pippen was able to duplicate his harassment on point guard Mark Jackson and seriously limited him in the Eastern Finals.
Honors
Defensive player of the year: None
NBA All-defensive 1st team: 8 times
NBA All-defensive 2nd team: 1 time
From a certain point of view, this is an apples to oranges comparison. In my opinion, Pippen was a better floating defender while Coop is the best all-time on-the-ball defender. However, if I were to form the best defensive team of all time, it would start with Coop. |
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Mike@LG Moderator
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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What, like Pippen's defense on Magic Johnson in the 1991 Finals wasn't good enough on-the-ball defense? _________________ Resident Car Nut.
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans. |
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djb Franchise Player
Joined: 11 Jul 2004 Posts: 11673
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Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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Dennis Rodman _________________ Los Angeles Lakers |
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Billy Thompson Starting Rotation
Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 109 Location: Anaheim, CA
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Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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Mike@LG wrote: | What, like Pippen's defense on Magic Johnson in the 1991 Finals wasn't good enough on-the-ball defense? |
It was good (if not great), but not Michael Cooper great. |
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Mike@LG Moderator
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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Billy Thompson wrote: | Mike@LG wrote: | What, like Pippen's defense on Magic Johnson in the 1991 Finals wasn't good enough on-the-ball defense? |
It was good (if not great), but not Michael Cooper great. |
I'm actually pretty damn sure of analyzing Cooper's defense.
Cooper was a great man-defender.
Pippen was a great man-defender and team-rover. That's more difficult. There's a reason why Pippen took the toughest defensive assignments, not MJ. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans. |
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Billy Thompson Starting Rotation
Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 109 Location: Anaheim, CA
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Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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Mike@LG wrote: |
Cooper was a great man-defender.
Pippen was a great man-defender and team-rover. That's more difficult. There's a reason why Pippen took the toughest defensive assignments, not MJ. |
I see your point, but keep in mind Coop often faced the situation where he had to fight through more screens due to teams trying to force a small-big matchup with Kareem ala Shaq. In Chicago's defense, they were able to switch more since more positions were interchangable, especially when Rodman moved to the 5.
Additionally, Coop faced stiff competition consiting of Bird, Eric 'Sleepy' Floyd, Isiah Thomas, Dave Ellis, Dr. J, and John Stockton. Pippen's marquee matchup was? I can't quite remember, but I'm sure it didn't consist of the 4 HOF players that Coop faced during the playoffs. In some regard, THAT is more difficult since the talent of the opposition was higher during the 80s. |
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HRE Star Player
Joined: 01 Aug 2001 Posts: 6933 Location: You can't see me
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Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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Pip. _________________ Lakers |
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KtotheBryant8 Starting Rotation
Joined: 16 Jul 2005 Posts: 182
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Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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chucky atkins is my hero no one competes with his defense, i mean he kept andre emmit from scoring, a point even though he only average like 1.3 mminutes a game and didn't play at all agains tthe lakers, but thats some lock down D if you ask me |
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macwebb Star Player
Joined: 24 Jun 2005 Posts: 1052
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Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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Man, Billy, this is a tough one...where did you get this idea? It's a good one...
Coop is one of my all-time favorites...so I am a little biased...I think if I had to pick one of these guys, I would give Pip a slight edge, mostly because he not only took the hard defensive assignments, but he usually quarterbacked the other guys and directed them in their assignments, even MJ...so with that in mind I would give Pip a slight edge, but not by much...
I love COOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOP! |
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Billy Thompson Starting Rotation
Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 109 Location: Anaheim, CA
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Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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On a side note, BOTH got schooled by KOBE.
According to the pro summer league / pickup game reports.... |
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c728 Star Player
Joined: 20 Jul 2002 Posts: 6933
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Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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Denttie Pipcoop Artcrief. _________________ Lakers |
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Walter Sobchak Star Player
Joined: 14 May 2003 Posts: 4520 Location: Hollywood, Ca.
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Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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From those 3 players, I think it was Pippen. He was a fantastic team defender and on-ball defender. I think it's Pippen's team defense that gives him the edge over Cooper. I don't think that either Cooper or Pippen would be the best SF/G defender of all time though. I would probably put Michael Jordan there, and Gary Payton should probably also get some mention. Someone mentioned Rodman, but he wasn't a small forward or guard; but if you wanted to discuss the greatest defender of all-time at any position I think that you'd have to say it was Bill Russell hands down, with Jordan a distant second, IMO. _________________ "People don't think it be like it is, but it do." - Oscar Gamble
Just a reminder folks: "a lot" is two words. So is "no one". |
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Buck32 Star Player
Joined: 30 Apr 2001 Posts: 7335
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Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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I think he said "SF-G"defenders, so he meant the swingman types.
btw I miss 2 great defenders, Bobby Jones and Sydney Moncrief. |
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PopcornMachine Franchise Player
Joined: 19 Apr 2001 Posts: 10566
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Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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I remember Coop handling Larry Bird.
I guess most here didn't see that. _________________
I'm with COCO!
Last edited by PopcornMachine on Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:26 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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TIME Starting Rotation
Joined: 23 Sep 2003 Posts: 278
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Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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PopcornMachine wrote: | I remember Coop handling Larry Bird.
I guess most here didn't see that. |
After that Bird called Coop the best defender to ever guard him. |
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KA_2 Star Player
Joined: 08 Jan 2005 Posts: 1883
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Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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Pippen pretty easily. _________________ Westside |
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lkrsdudugold Starting Rotation
Joined: 13 Jul 2005 Posts: 111
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Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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Bird 30 ppg
Thomas 25 ppg
DR J 27 ppg
that is against Pippin's defense
I think a little more of a big deal was made about Pippen because he was the only other player on Jordan's team. If there was another All-Star on Jordan's team you might have never heard of Pippen.
Cooper on the other hand..well you heard it from Bird's own mouth. I voted for Atkins but in my heart it's really Copper jsyk |
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DNA Star Player
Joined: 14 Feb 2005 Posts: 1694
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Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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Those numbers must have came from Pippen's early years, since those guys didn't play much during the 90's. However, Pippen wasn't known for his defense till his first championship. Also, looking at Pippen's PPG against doesn't do justice when one, Pippen also played a lot of help D. Two, the field goal % needs to be taken into account, and three, if the guy is a playmaker, then the assists also need to be taken into account. For example, Kobe averaged 32 ppg against Bowen in 2003, yet one can hardly say that he was anything but average because well he took almost 30 shots and his assists were kept well below average. |
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Mike@LG Moderator
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: | Bird 30 ppg
Thomas 25 ppg
DR J 27 ppg
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Those look like their season averages, not what was averaged against Cooper. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans. |
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elbonian Starting Rotation
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 Posts: 163
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Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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I voted for Atkins.
He is not the best on ball defender, but I have to give it to him for his team defense over Coop and Pip.
The way he plays strategic positional defense, forcing him man to blow by him into right into shot blocking monsters like Mihm and Grant. I've never seen a guy who could consistently funnel his man into a trap like that ever. |
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Money$hot! Star Player
Joined: 18 Dec 2002 Posts: 5911
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Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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Pippen had Jordan and Rodman (two of the greatest all time defenders as help) in their prime.
Coop had no help and still locked up the greatest offensive players ever.
Give Coop, MJ and Rodman and he becomes Pippen's equal as a team defender and still is a better on ball defender. It's not even close.
Michael Cooper by a landslide. |
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Runway8 Franchise Player
Joined: 19 Apr 2003 Posts: 22882 Location: La Jolla, San Diego
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Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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lkrsdudugold wrote: | Bird 30 ppg
Thomas 25 ppg
DR J 27 ppg
that is against Pippin's defense
I think a little more of a big deal was made about Pippen because he was the only other player on Jordan's team. If there was another All-Star on Jordan's team you might have never heard of Pippen.
Cooper on the other hand..well you heard it from Bird's own mouth. I voted for Atkins but in my heart it's really Copper jsyk |
HUH???????
Pippen became PIPPEN when he made his first all-star in 91. Was Bird and Dr J around in 91? Pippen was a rookie in 1988.
Pippen wasn't even part of the Bird, Dr J era... And did he really guard Isiah Thomas? |
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bambam Star Player
Joined: 03 Jul 2003 Posts: 9013
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Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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Money$hot! wrote: | Pippen had Jordan and Rodman (two of the greatest all time defenders as help) in their prime.
Coop had no help and still locked up the greatest offensive players ever.
Give Coop, MJ and Rodman and he becomes Pippen's equal as a team defender and still is a better on ball defender. It's not even close.
Michael Cooper by a landslide. |
Sorry, that post is ridiculous.
What? was MJ standing behind Pippen every time?
Rodman was in his prime? no.. not even close..Did Rodman play with Pippen his entire career? No.. Gee.. i thought it was only 3 years... and rodman wasnt a swatter. He was a rebounder and Great man 2 man defender.
Stop trying to diminish pippen just to prop up coop.
Both were great defenders no matter who was on their team w/ them. |
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Normnix Sixth Man
Joined: 18 Mar 2005 Posts: 59
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Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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scottie without question. For all of the reasons Mike [AT] LG mentioned.
However, one should note the difference between pre bad boys defense and post bad boys defense. Especially when talking about great perimeter defenders.
before the bad boys, refs pretty much called any and all handchecking out on the perimeter. The paint had always been grimey. Probably moreso than now. But perimeter defenders really had to play defense without their hands. After the bad boys, refs let defenders get away with more.
Now that's not to say Scottie wasn't legitimately locking people down. But there was a difference in officiating. |
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LA_Lakers_Rule Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Aug 2004 Posts: 19482 Location: The X-Files
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Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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I thought I'd vote Atkins, just as a joke to mess things up, then I find 14 other loggers must have thought the same thing, amazing...
My vote to Cooper !!! I'll take Larry Bird's word for it !!! _________________ Rule = win titles
Good judgment comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. - Will Rogers ... |
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