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| Should we get Franchise without trading Mihm or Odom? |
| Yes! |
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66% |
[ 109 ] |
| No way! |
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15% |
[ 26 ] |
| I'd rather have Payton! |
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2% |
[ 4 ] |
| I'd rather have Stoudamire! |
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1% |
[ 3 ] |
| I'd rather have another PG like Watson/Dixon? |
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13% |
[ 22 ] |
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| Total Votes : 164 |
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postandpivot
Retired Number
Joined: 16 Sep 2003
Posts: 36822
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 Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 8:24 am Post subject: |
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| Laker7 wrote: | Francis is another guy who plays defense when he is involoved in the offensive end. If not, he does not defend well.
Remember during JVG's first year in Houston, Stevie pouted and did not follow JVG's directions concerning running the offense. What makes anyone think he is not going to do the same with Phil and the triangle? |
thats the same thing I said. I remember franchise, specifically saying even though they were winning more games, he would rather play small ball... like he and cuttion use to. Franchise wants to be on a team full of bigs that do nothing but dirty work, set screens, block shots, and grab boards. WHY? so he can have the ball in his hand all game long.
And its not just shot attempts, I've seen stevie dribble the SHot clock down to zero instead of running the offense. I've seen this more then once, last year. Thats a problem. I know how good the guy is and can be. but he's a short 2 guard that can pass the ball. We already have a 2 guard.
Look this is what the lakers need. a PG- that has the ability to penetrate and score (in emergency situations, when the tri breaks down and the clock is running down), can hit the open 3, ican get the team into the offense, and play at minimum stay in front of you defense on the quicky guards. The best candidate out there for that job right now is probably LUE.
all the other runners ups, have huge wholes in some part of their game. Watson-cant shoot, can turn into a turnover king at certain points in the game(and I still rather have earl then knight).
Bknight-injury prone, NO Shot whatsoever.
at least with T.lue, he is a good 7 outta of ten in each category with his worst category being a 6. everyone else are 9's in their good spots and 5's or lower in their bad spots. |
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GameCock-MD
Star Player
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 4498
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 8:51 am Post subject: |
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| JD wrote: | | My problem with Francis, is he's dumber than a rock, in terms of BBall IQ. For those that think Devean is bad... George would be valedictorian of the class that Francis got held back a year from. |
Check Stevie's Maryland days...
Selfish is one thing...dumb is a vast overstatement...
He's not Jason Kidd but he's no Tierre Brown either...
For what LAL needs, Stevie is perfect....a hired gun that keeps defense's honest and provide some much needed D at the 1...
He's the most talented PG we could HOPE to aquire with the trade bait that we have...
This would be reminenscent of the Baron Davis steal from last season... |
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GameCock-MD
Star Player
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Posts: 4498
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 8:55 am Post subject: |
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| OshadowO wrote: | why?
do we need another player who needs the ball to be effective.
Our top two players already need to have the ball in their hands. You guys think its a good idea to have a third guy with the same problem? Seriously?
Francis' ball hogging problems, like kobe go beyond attempted shots. He over dribbles waaay too much.
Big thumbs down from me. |
Name one player who can score WITHOUT the basketball... |
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Hector the Pup
Retired Number
Joined: 25 Jul 2002
Posts: 35946
Location: L.A.
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 8:56 am Post subject: |
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And how is this a "hot rumor"?
A few random people starting threads on a couple of message boards with nothing to support their speculation and offering not even a hint of any hard evidence is not a hot rumor. |
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Mel Rose
Star Player
Joined: 25 Sep 2004
Posts: 1067
Location: Hollywood
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:01 am Post subject: |
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| JD wrote: | | My problem with Francis, is he's dumber than a rock, in terms of BBall IQ. For those that think Devean is bad... George would be valedictorian of the class that Francis got held back a year from. |
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startrex
Starting Rotation
Joined: 20 Jun 2005
Posts: 864
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:04 am Post subject: |
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| Hector the Pup wrote: | And how is this a "hot rumor"?
A few random people starting threads on a couple of message boards with nothing to support their speculation and offering not even a hint of any hard evidence is not a hot rumor. |
AT LEAST ITS HOT HERE.
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startrex
Starting Rotation
Joined: 20 Jun 2005
Posts: 864
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:38 am Post subject: |
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| GameCock-MD wrote: | | JD wrote: | | My problem with Francis, is he's dumber than a rock, in terms of BBall IQ. For those that think Devean is bad... George would be valedictorian of the class that Francis got held back a year from. |
Check Stevie's Maryland days...
Selfish is one thing...dumb is a vast overstatement...
He's not Jason Kidd but he's no Tierre Brown either...
For what LAL needs, Stevie is perfect....a hired gun that keeps defense's honest and provide some much needed D at the 1...
He's the most talented PG we could HOPE to aquire with the trade bait that we have...
This would be reminenscent of the Baron Davis steal from last season... |
Stevie is one guy that not only would keep the defense honest, he can also take over a game when he is "on." If there is anything positive about having him with Kobe is that instead of one guy who takes the last shot in a given quarter, we have two then. |
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edcherntw
Rookie
Joined: 27 Jun 2005
Posts: 16
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 10:09 am Post subject: |
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| Without giving up Mihm and Odom? Sure why not? But I doubt this will happen. |
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Capt.Skyhook
Star Player
Joined: 29 Feb 2004
Posts: 3991
Location: Louisville, Ky.
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 10:09 am Post subject: |
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I am not a Stevie fan, but you have to make that trade for expiring contracts. Franchise for all of his flaws is a talent and talent wins in the NBA. Plus I do not trust Odom at all as our second option. He lacks that mind-set. Steve surely doesn't.
For those who love Lue, Duhon, Dixon, Pargo. Those guys might be better fits, but they aren't major difference makers. They are backups and role players. They don't put is in the upper echelon of the West. The addition of Stevie could do that. We can't justify drolling over third-tier AD, but saying no to Franchise for junk. |
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OshadowO
Star Player
Joined: 22 Feb 2003
Posts: 7356
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 11:24 am Post subject: |
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| DNA wrote: | Doesn't everyone need the ball to be successful? I just love how people talk about the ability to beat guys off the dribble as if it was a negative. When Kobe kicks the ball out, wouldn't it be helpful for someone to do something without him being wide open? I don't see why Francis and Kobe can't coexist. Their stats each will go down a little, but at least we won't have a worry about a team smothering our ball movement because of our lack of ballhandlers.
Look, when Kobe is being doubled by a team like Detroit, it helps to have another guy that can step up and take away the pressure. I don't see Odom doing that against the intense pressure and the whole arena being in his ears. |
I didn't say they need to be without the ball, but they don't need to be dribbling it for 16-20 seconds, looking for an opening before trying to
a) take a bad bailout shot
b) kick it to a team mate with barely anytime to shoot
c) turnover
Francis is guilty of this far more than kobe is but both players have the same problem. I see what you're saying about having another guy who can create off the dribble but on the same token that is what the offense is there for. To get guys open without having to resort to over dribbling which can cause turnovers, and cripple ball movement completely!
IMO we need more solid roleplayers. Not head cases who're used to being option #1. (Francis)
| GameCock-MD wrote: | | Name one player who can score WITHOUT the basketball... |
:roll: |
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startrex
Starting Rotation
Joined: 20 Jun 2005
Posts: 864
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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UPDATE OF RESULTs out of 100 voters
-- Yes! 60%
-- No way! 18%
-- Payton 3%
-- Stoudamire 3%
-- Other PGs 16%
Overwhelmingly, the approval by the voters here is so far by a landslide!
Keep it coming folks. |
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Fallout
Star Player
Joined: 03 Jun 2002
Posts: 7626
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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| startrex wrote: | UPDATE OF RESULTs out of 100 voters
-- Yes! 60%
-- No way! 18%
-- Payton 3%
-- Stoudamire 3%
-- Other PGs 16%
Overwhelmingly, the approval by the voters here is so far by a landslide!
Keep it coming folks. |
Its fun to debate. But its a good thing there's only one Lakers GM. |
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startrex
Starting Rotation
Joined: 20 Jun 2005
Posts: 864
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Fallout wrote: | | startrex wrote: | UPDATE OF RESULTs out of 100 voters
-- Yes! 60%
-- No way! 18%
-- Payton 3%
-- Stoudamire 3%
-- Other PGs 16%
Overwhelmingly, the approval by the voters here is so far by a landslide!
Keep it coming folks. |
Its fun to debate. But its a good thing there's only one Lakers GM. |
 I am afraid Orlando Magic also has one GM who may likely send
somebody to spy on lakersground.net to see the reaction of lakers fans.
I won't be surprised if Orlando back off from the "trade" based on
the result of the unofficial poll. 
Somebody please send this link to Mitch! |
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eddie8
Sixth Man
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Posts: 47
Location: Houston, TX
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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| If we don't give up anyone from the starting 5, i'll do this trade. Stevie will be close to his best friend Cuttino. Anytime you can get a steal...you have to go for it. I live in houston, I know he likes the ball in his hand, but the triangle offense forces players to move w/o the ball. He can shoot the three, he can play defense if motivated. If this rumor is true, I think it'll be a good thing. Plus, we have to have some drama, lol... |
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flipogb
Sixth Man
Joined: 26 Jun 2005
Posts: 57
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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| postandpivot wrote: | | Laker7 wrote: | Francis is another guy who plays defense when he is involoved in the offensive end. If not, he does not defend well.
Remember during JVG's first year in Houston, Stevie pouted and did not follow JVG's directions concerning running the offense. What makes anyone think he is not going to do the same with Phil and the triangle? |
thats the same thing I said. I remember franchise, specifically saying even though they were winning more games, he would rather play small ball... like he and cuttion use to. Franchise wants to be on a team full of bigs that do nothing but dirty work, set screens, block shots, and grab boards. WHY? so he can have the ball in his hand all game long.
And its not just shot attempts, I've seen stevie dribble the SHot clock down to zero instead of running the offense. I've seen this more then once, last year. Thats a problem. I know how good the guy is and can be. but he's a short 2 guard that can pass the ball. We already have a 2 guard.
Look this is what the lakers need. a PG- that has the ability to penetrate and score (in emergency situations, when the tri breaks down and the clock is running down), can hit the open 3, ican get the team into the offense, and play at minimum stay in front of you defense on the quicky guards. The best candidate out there for that job right now is probably LUE.
all the other runners ups, have huge wholes in some part of their game. Watson-cant shoot, can turn into a turnover king at certain points in the game(and I still rather have earl then knight).
Bknight-injury prone, NO Shot whatsoever.
at least with T.lue, he is a good 7 outta of ten in each category with his worst category being a 6. everyone else are 9's in their good spots and 5's or lower in their bad spots. |
He can hold the ball because he is good enough to deserve the ball. Your saying Lue is a better fit. Theyll be almost the same, Francis just happens to be better. If he has to take his game to Lue's level then all he has to do is use less of his skills, anyone can do that |
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viper2
Star Player
Joined: 13 Jul 2004
Posts: 1297
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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No to Francis. As great a talent he is, i dont think this works out in the best interest of the team.
Point: Franchise is a shooter, not a role player and judging by his stats (1324 attempts) he ranks just behind Kobe for FGA in the league (13th and 14th respectively). The point was raised that there isnt enough shots to go around, and this has some validity to it. Stevie launches approx 17 per game, while Kobe avgs 20 attempts. Odom who facilitates often jacks up nearly 13 attempts per contest, while Mihm posts about 8 attempts. From 4 potential starters thats 58 shots and the lakers last year avg'd 80 attempts per game as a team.
Seeing as we now have brought Kwame into the fold, one of his complaints about playing in DC was the fact he had teammates that would often forget about him in the post while they jacked shot after shot. Arenas, Jamison, Hughes and Jeffries avg'd 19,18, 17 and 6 shots respectively. All of sudden, Kwame's back where he started. No touches and no ability to establish his post game. |
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startrex
Starting Rotation
Joined: 20 Jun 2005
Posts: 864
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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| viper2 wrote: | No to Francis. As great a talent he is, i dont think this works out in the best interest of the team.
Point: Franchise is a shooter, not a role player and judging by his stats (1324 attempts) he ranks just behind Kobe for FGA in the league (13th and 14th respectively). The point was raised that there isnt enough shots to go around, and this has some validity to it. Stevie launches approx 17 per game, while Kobe avgs 20 attempts. Odom who facilitates often jacks up nearly 13 attempts per contest, while Mihm posts about 8 attempts. From 4 potential starters thats 58 shots and the lakers last year avg'd 80 attempts per game as a team.
Seeing as we now have brought Kwame into the fold, one of his complaints about playing in DC was the fact he had teammates that would often forget about him in the post while they jacked shot after shot. Arenas, Jamison, Hughes and Jeffries avg'd 19,18, 17 and 6 shots respectively. All of sudden, Kwame's back where he started. No touches and no ability to establish his post game. |
Am sure your legit concern on shots will be carefully considered before
Jackson and Mitch decide to do the trade. I have said before that
Franchise should be willing to play within PJ's concept or no deal at all. |
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Showtime_Returns
Star Player
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 1730
Location: Somewhere looking for a magic wand
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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| viper2 wrote: | No to Francis. As great a talent he is, i dont think this works out in the best interest of the team.
Point: Franchise is a shooter, not a role player and judging by his stats (1324 attempts) he ranks just behind Kobe for FGA in the league (13th and 14th respectively). The point was raised that there isnt enough shots to go around, and this has some validity to it. Stevie launches approx 17 per game, while Kobe avgs 20 attempts. Odom who facilitates often jacks up nearly 13 attempts per contest, while Mihm posts about 8 attempts. From 4 potential starters thats 58 shots and the lakers last year avg'd 80 attempts per game as a team.
Seeing as we now have brought Kwame into the fold, one of his complaints about playing in DC was the fact he had teammates that would often forget about him in the post while they jacked shot after shot. Arenas, Jamison, Hughes and Jeffries avg'd 19,18, 17 and 6 shots respectively. All of sudden, Kwame's back where he started. No touches and no ability to establish his post game. |
Seriously what post game does Kwame have? Kwame hasn't proved a damn thing in this league to warrant him getting a lot of touches. Lets face it this isn't Kwame's team or Odom's or Francis or even Mihms. Kobe is the boss he gets the most touches and everyone else falls in line and shuts up. You guys are forgetting that Kwame is terribly inconsistent. Bringing in Francis will take the pressure off him to perform right a way. I would seriously expect Mihm like numbers from him.
Let Odom be the facilitator/distributor while Francis and Kobe focus purely on scoring and defence. Mihm and Kwame can clean up inside and provide interior defence. |
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_LAKESHOW_
Star Player
Joined: 22 Apr 2001
Posts: 6138
Location: hot dog stand across from staples
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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it seems like alot of people like franchise. but how this supposed deal would work with turiafs situation. would we give up grant and vlade? leaving us severely undermanned down low. anyhow, its worth noting.
_________________
Los Angeles Lakers |
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viper2
Star Player
Joined: 13 Jul 2004
Posts: 1297
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| Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Showtime_Returns wrote: | | viper2 wrote: | No to Francis. As great a talent he is, i dont think this works out in the best interest of the team.
Point: Franchise is a shooter, not a role player and judging by his stats (1324 attempts) he ranks just behind Kobe for FGA in the league (13th and 14th respectively). The point was raised that there isnt enough shots to go around, and this has some validity to it. Stevie launches approx 17 per game, while Kobe avgs 20 attempts. Odom who facilitates often jacks up nearly 13 attempts per contest, while Mihm posts about 8 attempts. From 4 potential starters thats 58 shots and the lakers last year avg'd 80 attempts per game as a team.
Seeing as we now have brought Kwame into the fold, one of his complaints about playing in DC was the fact he had teammates that would often forget about him in the post while they jacked shot after shot. Arenas, Jamison, Hughes and Jeffries avg'd 19,18, 17 and 6 shots respectively. All of sudden, Kwame's back where he started. No touches and no ability to establish his post game. |
Seriously what post game does Kwame have? Kwame hasn't proved a damn thing in this league to warrant him getting a lot of touches. Lets face it this isn't Kwame's team or Odom's or Francis or even Mihms. Kobe is the boss he gets the most touches and everyone else falls in line and shuts up. You guys are forgetting that Kwame is terribly inconsistent. Bringing in Francis will take the pressure off him to perform right a way. I would seriously expect Mihm like numbers from him.
Let Odom be the facilitator/distributor while Francis and Kobe focus purely on scoring and defence. Mihm and Kwame can clean up inside and provide interior defence. |
Well, of course its Kobe's team. But i dont think you trade Caron for a player who only relegated to basically a role player. Kwame apparently has some talent (im waitin just as you are to see it though) and this team needs some balance in the offense so why not let Kwame display and refine his low post game.
I really got tired of this team jackin up 3's and perimeter shots. Having no low post threat made things very difficult. And besides, when this team begins to contend for another title it wont be because we have good core of perimeter players. No......this team is a low post threat from contending again, and the sooner that developes the better. Then we can really start thinkin about more parades and confetti down the avenues.
I have some doubts still about Kwame, but im gonna give him an opportunity to prove me and everyone else wrong. Ive had some time to review some of his statistics last year and what surprises me is that when this kid actually get his touches he's very effective. Go review his stats on Nba.com and tell me what you see when he's had at least 8-10 shot attempts per game. I calculated his FG percentages in those games where he had at least 8 shot attempts and his numbers are astounding-- 59%FG, double figures scoring (avg of 13.36ppg) in all but 3 of those games (with at least 8 attempts). See ?? So Kwame does have it in him, it just that once he gets the opportunity he can show that talent and effectiveness. |
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AIRZOOMKOBE2k5
Star Player
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 1702
Location: Redondo
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:04 am Post subject: |
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| i hope mitch reads this |
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startrex
Starting Rotation
Joined: 20 Jun 2005
Posts: 864
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:30 am Post subject: |
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| viper2 wrote: | | Showtime_Returns wrote: | | viper2 wrote: | No to Francis. As great a talent he is, i dont think this works out in the best interest of the team.
Point: Franchise is a shooter, not a role player and judging by his stats (1324 attempts) he ranks just behind Kobe for FGA in the league (13th and 14th respectively). The point was raised that there isnt enough shots to go around, and this has some validity to it. Stevie launches approx 17 per game, while Kobe avgs 20 attempts. Odom who facilitates often jacks up nearly 13 attempts per contest, while Mihm posts about 8 attempts. From 4 potential starters thats 58 shots and the lakers last year avg'd 80 attempts per game as a team.
Seeing as we now have brought Kwame into the fold, one of his complaints about playing in DC was the fact he had teammates that would often forget about him in the post while they jacked shot after shot. Arenas, Jamison, Hughes and Jeffries avg'd 19,18, 17 and 6 shots respectively. All of sudden, Kwame's back where he started. No touches and no ability to establish his post game. |
Seriously what post game does Kwame have? Kwame hasn't proved a damn thing in this league to warrant him getting a lot of touches. Lets face it this isn't Kwame's team or Odom's or Francis or even Mihms. Kobe is the boss he gets the most touches and everyone else falls in line and shuts up. You guys are forgetting that Kwame is terribly inconsistent. Bringing in Francis will take the pressure off him to perform right a way. I would seriously expect Mihm like numbers from him.
Let Odom be the facilitator/distributor while Francis and Kobe focus purely on scoring and defence. Mihm and Kwame can clean up inside and provide interior defence. |
Well, of course its Kobe's team. But i dont think you trade Caron for a player who only relegated to basically a role player. Kwame apparently has some talent (im waitin just as you are to see it though) and this team needs some balance in the offense so why not let Kwame display and refine his low post game.
I really got tired of this team jackin up 3's and perimeter shots. Having no low post threat made things very difficult. And besides, when this team begins to contend for another title it wont be because we have good core of perimeter players. No......this team is a low post threat from contending again, and the sooner that developes the better. Then we can really start thinkin about more parades and confetti down the avenues.
I have some doubts still about Kwame, but im gonna give him an opportunity to prove me and everyone else wrong. Ive had some time to review some of his statistics last year and what surprises me is that when this kid actually get his touches he's very effective. Go review his stats on Nba.com and tell me what you see when he's had at least 8-10 shot attempts per game. I calculated his FG percentages in those games where he had at least 8 shot attempts and his numbers are astounding-- 59%FG, double figures scoring (avg of 13.36ppg) in all but 3 of those games (with at least 8 attempts). See ?? So Kwame does have it in him, it just that once he gets the opportunity he can show that talent and effectiveness. |
I do believe that Kwame is brought primarily for defensive and rebounding purpose first. He may have his touches to facilitate the
triangle offense. Scoring will be assigned mostly to Kobe and Odom.
Kwame, Mihm and the PG will have their chances to score at times and
thru the assists from Kobe or Odom or from each other.
Remember, the Bulls didn't not exactly had low post threats when
with Rodman, Cart Wright and Longley. Horace Grant was the only
legit low post threat. In fact, during his second comeback, Jordan
was the most lethal low post threat. And so was Pippen against
other SFs. I can see the same for Kobe and Odom. And if Kwame
does develop his low post moves, he may be a legit threat down low.
But it will take take. Right now at least he can shoot straight from
12-20 feet away and has shown some flash move to the basket from
that range.
Back to the thread, I still think we should get Franchise if we can get
him for George, Divac, and Slava. I just don't think Orlando would
buy it... because essentially they are getting one healthy player for
Franchise. |
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Green45
Starting Rotation
Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 262
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 5:02 am Post subject: |
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| Lakeshow.. wrote: | | Odom is already said to be untouchable for Franchise, I'd find it hard to believe Orl. wouldn't atleast want Mihm. Mihm + Expiring Ks for Stevie would be a steal IMO. If we can get Cato thrown in Mitch should be shot if he doesn't pull the trigger. |
 Agreed! |
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startrex
Starting Rotation
Joined: 20 Jun 2005
Posts: 864
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 5:19 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | "reincarnatingDaBulls"]Lakers fans are complete hypocrites. Everything yall are saying about Francis people said about Kobe b4 (and after) Phil. Everything! When Francis played wit Yao he made it just as far as McGrady did with Yao, cept he ran into US. Yall are talkin bout how LA had a chance to get him b4, but declined????? Hello!!!, that was b4 the Allan Houston rule people. Any GM who could get Francis for nuthing would go after him, and if thats the case, i will go out on a limb and say that's our target.
Disgruntled Allstar
Did not make the playoffs this year
Francis people |
Or KG.
I hope I am not one of the hypocrites. I find haters 4x hypocrital than
Lakers fans. When T-mac shot 6-21 he had a bad night. When Kobe
shot 6-21, he was a ballhog.
[/quote] |
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Sidious
Starting Rotation
Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 586
Location: Hunting Beach, CA
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| Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 6:34 am Post subject: |
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| I just don't see how this makes the team better in the long run. If they're gonna spend another 10 mil on a player I'm under the impression it should be a big man. |
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