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TEEGUNN
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 Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:01 am Post subject: |
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Marion's man defense isn't all that either. He's a dangerous weak side shot blocker type and a great athlete, but not a great individual defender.
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postandpivot
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:03 am Post subject: |
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| LakerSanity wrote: | | Really I think the only edge Marion has is on defense (both man D and team D). I think LO is a better scorer, rebounder, and facilitator. Many people say Marion was great before Nash arrived, but want to know his other point guards - Jason Kidd and Stephon Marbury (who averaged 8+ assists that year). Going from Kidd/Marbury/Nash to Fisher certainly won't help Marion's offense much and I am pretty sure he's not too great at creating his own O. LO can at least create his own offense, even if he doesn't try as often as he should. |
even further going from a normal open offense to Fun n Run to triangle where you yourself have to be the pg at times. i dont think the matrix works for LO. with LO maybe or with a JO alongside him. yes. |
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Tony Almeida
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:09 am Post subject: |
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Marion has the edge in defense (although I believe some overrate him in this department) and durability.
The primary risk of this exact trade would be on the offensive side of the ball. Is Marion just a product of the system? Does Marion only look good because of Nash/great PG play? Would the triangle hinder Marion's game and numbers?
Well I can say this much, Marion has played great with or without Nash. He put up his usual numbers without even a hint of dropping off during the 2003-2004 season in which Marbs was traded early on and the Suns had a rookie Barbosa running point (note: That Barbosa was not even close to being as good as he is now). So I'm not buying into the Nash/Marbs/needs a PG argument, simply because the facts have shown otherwise.
The main contrast will be the Phoenix Suns run and gun system versus. the Lakers and the triangle offense. Will playing with Kobe compensate for that system change? I cannot say for sure.
But when deciding whether or not this is a worthwhile deal, is the reward of having a better defender and far more durable player, worth the risk of the potential offensive drop off Marion may experience going from the Suns to the Lakers, putting him around Lamar's points but less playmaking?
It might be worth the risk, and I can see why this could be a good deal for us. I can also see why some might not want to take that risk. Regardless, I doubt anything happens with this supposed trade beyond this point. |
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Dr. Laker
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:11 am Post subject: |
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| TEEGUNN wrote: | | Marion's man defense isn't all that either. He's a dangerous weak side shot blocker type and a great athlete, but not a great individual defender. |
That is ridiculuos. Marion is an EXCELLENT individual defender.
LINK TO SUNS FANS
82GAMES ANALYSIS
| Quote: | | MARION, SHAWN – Gives consistently great defensive performances against the best in the league. Shows up among the league leaders in every conceivable statistical category. |
Put down the crack pipe.
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TEEGUNN
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:26 am Post subject: |
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| Dr. Laker wrote: | | TEEGUNN wrote: | | Marion's man defense isn't all that either. He's a dangerous weak side shot blocker type and a great athlete, but not a great individual defender. |
That is ridiculuos. Marion is an EXCELLENT individual defender.
LINK TO SUNS FANS
82GAMES ANALYSIS
| Quote: | | MARION, SHAWN – Gives consistently great defensive performances against the best in the league. Shows up among the league leaders in every conceivable statistical category. |
Put down the crack pipe. |
You could have skipped the Suns Fans link..... the 82 games link does not, IMHO, show Marion to be a great man to man defender. Good?? Sure. Great weak-side defender?? Absolutely. But is Marion even the Suns default best defender when it comes to man to man matchups for wing players?? It seems to me that someone else on the Suns usually draws these assignments.
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"Why do you think bad things happen, anyway???" "So we have something good to look forward to."
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JUST-MING
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:29 am Post subject: |
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I would do the trade now. Marion for Odom and Cook.
PG Jordan Farmar / Derek Fisher / Javaris Crittenton
SG Kobe Bryant / Maurice Evans
SF Shawn Marion / Luke Walton
PF Ronny Turiaf / Vladimir Radmanovic
C Andrew Bynum / Kwame Brown / Chris Mihm |
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TACH
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:29 am Post subject: |
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| TEEGUNN wrote: | | Dr. Laker wrote: | | TEEGUNN wrote: | | Marion's man defense isn't all that either. He's a dangerous weak side shot blocker type and a great athlete, but not a great individual defender. |
That is ridiculuos. Marion is an EXCELLENT individual defender.
LINK TO SUNS FANS
82GAMES ANALYSIS
| Quote: | | MARION, SHAWN – Gives consistently great defensive performances against the best in the league. Shows up among the league leaders in every conceivable statistical category. |
Put down the crack pipe. |
You could have skipped the Suns Fans link..... the 82 games link does not, IMHO, show Marion to be a great man to man defender. Good?? Sure. Great weak-side defender?? Absolutely. But is Marion even the Suns default best defender when it comes to man to man matchups for wing players?? It seems to me that someone else on the Suns usually draws these assignments. |
He was up for DPOY, right behind the winner Camby...
LINK |
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LakerJam
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:31 am Post subject: |
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| Dr. Laker wrote: | | TEEGUNN wrote: | | Marion's man defense isn't all that either. He's a dangerous weak side shot blocker type and a great athlete, but not a great individual defender. |
That is ridiculuos. Marion is an EXCELLENT individual defender.
LINK TO SUNS FANS
82GAMES ANALYSIS
| Quote: | | MARION, SHAWN – Gives consistently great defensive performances against the best in the league. Shows up among the league leaders in every conceivable statistical category. |
Put down the crack pipe. |
What stats to prove it? Rebounding? Steals? Well, Lebron averages a lot of steals and a good # of rebounds for a wing, but that doesn't make him a strong man defender. Individual man defense shows up in stats by looking to see how a player's OPPONENTS typically do. Consequently, the better gauge would be to check to see if his opponents typically score above, equal to or less than their season averages when they play against him.
Also, who cares that SUNS FANS love Marion's defense? You're posting that link as though fan opinion is some sort of valuable reference point. It isn't. Be it optimistic or pessimistic, fans view their sports teams through emotions. The second link is still tantamount to someone's interpretation of his defense, and that's nothing more than opinion.
One final thing: Consistent effort does not equate to excellent man defense. Luke Walton gives consistent effort on defense. So does Sasha, and while neither are in the same class defensively as Marion, the point is still there. Now that's not to say Marion's man defense is or isn't good, only that you haven't posted anything that refutes or supports either stance. |
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TEEGUNN
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:32 am Post subject: |
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| TACH wrote: | | TEEGUNN wrote: | | Dr. Laker wrote: | | TEEGUNN wrote: | | Marion's man defense isn't all that either. He's a dangerous weak side shot blocker type and a great athlete, but not a great individual defender. |
That is ridiculuos. Marion is an EXCELLENT individual defender.
LINK TO SUNS FANS
82GAMES ANALYSIS
| Quote: | | MARION, SHAWN – Gives consistently great defensive performances against the best in the league. Shows up among the league leaders in every conceivable statistical category. |
Put down the crack pipe. |
You could have skipped the Suns Fans link..... the 82 games link does not, IMHO, show Marion to be a great man to man defender. Good?? Sure. Great weak-side defender?? Absolutely. But is Marion even the Suns default best defender when it comes to man to man matchups for wing players?? It seems to me that someone else on the Suns usually draws these assignments. |
He was up for DPOY, right behind the winner Camby...
LINK |
I am aware of that. Still doesn't change my opinion that his man to man defense isn't all NBA. But he is a great overall defender, as I stated earlier. Isolated on the wing against the elite guards of the league is not his strength, albeit he is still good at it. On the Suns, Bell is the guy who draws the toughest wing player for the opponents most nights. For a reason. Plus - Marion is more valuable being able to roam and use his lenght/athleticism playing weakside D.
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"Why do you think bad things happen, anyway???" "So we have something good to look forward to."
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dvdrdiscs
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:32 am Post subject: |
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| encina1 wrote: | | dvdrdiscs wrote: | | probably a rehash of old rumors. i personally would do it IF we had a legit PG running the show. if we had landed jason kidd, marion would fit better. but as it stand, we need odom more so than marion. |
Kwame and Bynum for Kidd?
Odom and Cook for Marion?
Mihm/?
Turiaf/
Marion/Vlad/Luke
Kobe/Evans/Sasha
Kidd/Farmar/Critt
Thin at C, and we'd get killed by Duncan more so than ever, but upgrades all around?
I am not advocating anything, just working off of dvdrdiscs' post. |
Your assumption is we stand pat once those moves are made. If those moves are made, not only will we be more more appealing to FA, we would also be actively filling in those holes instead of twiddling our thumb.
Kidd/Kobe/Marion. That's a fearsome treo that would entice a lot of old talent. That would bring us a lot closer to showtime than the Lamar show. |
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magic_bryant
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:33 am Post subject: |
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Do the LO for Marion deal. It at least gives the Lakers another player that can bring the energy and intensity needed. Yeah, his D is severely overrated, he has NEVER stopped a single player 1-on-1, and he's just the World's Greatest Garbage Man, but at least you can count on him to bring the energy, boards, and his Team D could hide some of the mistakes.
Not to mention he can play the PF, IF NEED BE, and not be forced to the pine because of the rough play, unlike a certain tweener we have at PF already.
Do the deal. JO will become available for Bynum and change at some point this year, and you then have a better 3rd Option behind he and Kobe.
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Dr. Laker
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:35 am Post subject: |
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| TEEGUNN wrote: | | But is Marion even the Suns default best defender when it comes to man to man matchups for wing players?? It seems to me that someone else on the Suns usually draws these assignments. |
In last possession situations, it's Marion. He ALWAYS draws Kobe late because of his length, hops and quickness.
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TEEGUNN
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:39 am Post subject: |
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| Dr. Laker wrote: | | TEEGUNN wrote: | | But is Marion even the Suns default best defender when it comes to man to man matchups for wing players?? It seems to me that someone else on the Suns usually draws these assignments. |
In last possession situations, it's Marion. He ALWAYS draws Kobe late because of his length, hops and quickness. |
Always is an exagerration. Maybe my memory is failing me in my old age, but I can distinctly remember Bell and even Kidd on Kobe during last possessions against the Suns before.
In any case, I still maintain that his man defense is not his strength, as I stated earlier. Kind of like how AK 47 is overated defensively man to man, but weak-side he is lethal.
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"Why do you think bad things happen, anyway???" "So we have something good to look forward to."
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Dr. Laker
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:39 am Post subject: |
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| TEEGUNN wrote: | | On the Suns, Bell is the guy who draws the toughest wing player for the opponents most nights. For a reason. Plus - Marion is more valuable being able to roam and use his lenght/athleticism playing weakside D. |
The reason is that Marion guards PF for half the game in their smallball lineup. They would get murdered putting Raja on a PF.
In late situations, they put Marion on the best wing player, Amare on the best post player and zone everyone else.
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LVLAKERFAN
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:40 am Post subject: |
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The only reason I don't like this trade is because it makes the Suns a contender. I am starting to think this trade makes us better, but I couldn't stand to see this lineup domintate.
Nash
Bell
Hill
Odom
Amare
That's just nasty
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SCHROEDER/CARUSO/COOK
MATTHEWS/KCP/THT
LEBRON/KUZMA/BABYGIANIS
AD/MORRIS/DUDLEY
GASOL/HARRELL/TINKLE
Coachs:Vogel/Kidd |
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TEEGUNN
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:42 am Post subject: |
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| Dr. Laker wrote: | | TEEGUNN wrote: | | On the Suns, Bell is the guy who draws the toughest wing player for the opponents most nights. For a reason. Plus - Marion is more valuable being able to roam and use his lenght/athleticism playing weakside D. |
The reason is that Marion guards PF for half the game in their smallball lineup. They would get murdered putting Raja on a PF.
In late situations, they put Marion on the best wing player, Amare on the best post player and zone everyone else. |
I'm not buying that 100%, but there is some truth to it.
None the less, you still haven't changed my mind about Marions isolation defense.
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TACH
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:43 am Post subject: |
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| LVLAKERFAN wrote: | The only reason I don't like this trade is because it makes the Suns a contender. I am starting to think this trade makes us better, but I couldn't stand to see this lineup domintate.
Nash
Bell
Hill
Odom
Amare
That's just nasty |
100% agree.... |
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CrimsonLaker
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:51 am Post subject: |
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| LVLAKERFAN wrote: | The only reason I don't like this trade is because it makes the Suns a contender. I am starting to think this trade makes us better, but I couldn't stand to see this lineup domintate.
Nash
Bell
Hill
Odom
Amare
That's just nasty |
LOL...
Comon' the Suns are contenders ANYWAY. |
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LVLAKERFAN
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:54 am Post subject: |
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| CrimsonLaker wrote: | | LVLAKERFAN wrote: | The only reason I don't like this trade is because it makes the Suns a contender. I am starting to think this trade makes us better, but I couldn't stand to see this lineup domintate.
Nash
Bell
Hill
Odom
Amare
That's just nasty |
LOL...
Comon' the Suns are contenders ANYWAY. |
But now they don't have to pay their 3rd option 20+ million a year and they get another big that fit's their system like a glove coming off the bench to solidify that team.
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SCHROEDER/CARUSO/COOK
MATTHEWS/KCP/THT
LEBRON/KUZMA/BABYGIANIS
AD/MORRIS/DUDLEY
GASOL/HARRELL/TINKLE
Coachs:Vogel/Kidd |
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LVLAKERFAN
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:56 am Post subject: |
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If Mihm can pull off powerforward for us and Kwame breaks out:
How many wins?
Fisher/Farmar/Crittendon
Kobe/Evans/Sasha
Marion/Luke
Mihm/Turiaf/Radmanovic
Kwame/Bynum
_________________
SCHROEDER/CARUSO/COOK
MATTHEWS/KCP/THT
LEBRON/KUZMA/BABYGIANIS
AD/MORRIS/DUDLEY
GASOL/HARRELL/TINKLE
Coachs:Vogel/Kidd
Last edited by LVLAKERFAN on Tue Sep 25, 2007 12:04 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:59 am Post subject: |
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| LakerJam wrote: | | LakerSanity wrote: | | ^Funny, the only way I could stomach that deal is if we threw in Cook... I want that guy off the team very badly, not Smush badly, but badly all the same. |
Hating a guy is not a good reason to give a team another weapon, especially when it's that obvious Cook would flourish over there. If you want him off the team that bad, propose a trade elsewhere for a pick - he absolutely could garner that - but don't give his lethal shooting to the Suns. That's just foolish and based on pure emotion versus thinking it through.
We have to face Phoenix regularly. Take care who you're so eager to cough up to them. If it's a guy who can't shoot, go for it, but a guy who absolutely will knock em down? Ugh. |
I'm not worried about Phoenix. I think Nash has a two year window at best. After that, the Suns become a much easier team to defend. Marion wouldn't be a missing piece, but another piece. We would be peaking about the time Nash would be declining.
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msb212
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:59 am Post subject: |
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terrible idea. Sideways or backwards move. THis team needs to put someone next to kobe and LO, not exchange.
LO owned Marion in the playoffs. Marion is undersized, and not a great spot up shooter. forget it. He's also too ugly to be a laker. |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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| LA_Lakers_Rule wrote: |
I'm with you on this one, LO's versatility and better fit in the Tri (Marion is even worse from the outside than LO) |
Marion has a mid-range game, something LO continues to ignore. That is huge in the triangle.
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postandpivot
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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| kobesNBA wrote: | Hmmm. . .
To be honest, I really am surprised at how many of you think this is a good deal for us. Maybe I just need my head examined, but I would not do this trade in a million years. Sure, dumping off Cook sounds pretty tasty. But I wouldn't even trade LO for Marion strait up.
Lets look at this for a moment. Marion is more athletic than Lamar, and less injury prone. He is a good cleanup type of player, and a better scorer.
Now on the other hand, do you honestly think if you traded for any Phoenix Sun, that they would put up the same kind of numbers here? Have you forgotten why they don't run any plays for him? I would cringe every time he shoots the ball. More than I do with MO. And lets not forget his higher than it sould be pricetag.
And what about Phoenix? Can you imagine how well LO and Cook would plug in to their system? Both have way better range. Sure, Cook can't play defense, but none of those guys (outside of Bell) can. And having another passer playing next to Nash would be nasty. If we did that trade, we might as well make a public statement saying "We are really pushing for Phoenix to win it all this season".
Now, if you will excuse me, I am going to crawl under my desk and assume the fetal position. |
let me help you out here. its about Names. people want Named players. thats it. they dont care if they are a better fit or not. they just want names. |
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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I'm guessing talk is all that it will be and remain so.
Kerr can ask for Odom all he wants. Mitch isn't going to hand the Suns exactly what they need next to Nash and Amare for the playoffs.
Last edited by wolfpaclaker on Tue Sep 25, 2007 12:11 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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