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Marion for Odom Talk -- PLEASE KEEP ALL MARION DISCUSSION HERE
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RG73
Franchise Player

Joined: 14 Jul 2001
Posts: 11508

Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 12:51 pm Post subject:

postandpivot wrote:

and again. marion's production mid season is irrelevant.

So actually winning games in the season is irrelevant?

Quote:

if come playoff time it has little impact on the games at hand. you guys dont get it.

Ummm, Marion has identical playoff numbers over his career as Odom. This has been pointed out to you on every page in this thread. I mean 17 and 10 is impact last I checked.

Quote:

prime example. do you really think Dwade is better then tracy mcgrady(when trac is healthy?) Offensively? I dont. But at the end of the day. ref help or not. Who has the most impact? D-whistle.

Ummm, when did TMac play with Shaq in the Eastern Conference?

Quote:

So who would i rather have? a 80% healthy D-whistle during the season/D-whistle playing in the playoffs regardless of health or a 100% healthy Tmac all season and in the playoffs?

Well Wade is younger, so you obviously would take Wade.

Quote:

Some of you would take Tmac. I would take D-whistle. cause i know his impact when it counts most. if you know your team will be in the offs. You're no longer looking for someone to get you a higher seed so you can skip a team you're afraid to play. (clippers 2 seasons ago).

Well you have to be able to actually make the playoffs.

Quote:

So you wont meet up with the suns anyway, and watch LO murder marion and you lose to the suns anyway.

LO averaged 19 and 10 for that series. Who did he murder?

Quote:

You're team needs to be good enough to beat anyone. and if we got marion. that will not be the case come playoff time.

But you just said with Odom murdering people we can't win. So if Odom is so amazing we should be winning, no?

Quote:

anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

Quote:

so again, why make a marion trade? if its not going to help us CONTEND?

Ummm, because it gets you one step closer to contention since you're adding a better player. Again, and again, and again--you don't have to make every single move at once.

Quote:

he's not going to attract any bigtime FA's. cause he's not enough to again make us a Contender.

The Lakers don't have the cap space to attract a bigtime FA anyway.

Quote:

KB and JO would be better.

Ok, but JO isn't available anymore.

Quote:

then KB and Matrix. and even KB and JO aint enough. So again. WHy do this? just cause? cause everyone else is making trades so should we? cause kb said moves better be made or else? WHy make a deal like this?

Because it vastly improves one position, improves your statistical production almost across the board and gives you a healthy body for the entire season. The same reasons you usually change the roster--improve positions, increase production, get healthy bodies....

postandpivot
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Joined: 16 Sep 2003
Posts: 36822

Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 12:54 pm Post subject:

RG73 wrote:

postandpivot wrote:

if you're saying

I was saying the Lakers were never the best passing team in the league.

Reading is fundamental.

Quote:

the lakers have injury prone players outside of odom and kwame.

They do.

Quote:

then you're also talking about Kobe, cause either he's injured or in eagle, co.

Yes, Kobe has spent so much time in Eagle.

Quote:

this is the first time in who knows how long where the man FINALLY had a free summer, and is coming into camp 110% ready.

Ok, but that wasn't really your argument. Your argument was about the Lakers being the best passing team in the league because George Karl said so, despite not leading the league in passing statistics.

[/=quote] so put kobe on that list. and since he's on that list lets trade his injury prone (darn near never in camp at 100%, always got a problem, etc, etc). RIGHT?

I'm just using your logic. "lakers will never win with injury prone players." RIGHT?

No, I was pointing out that the Lakers weren't the best passing team in the league since they neither led the league in assists, nor fewest turnovers. I didn't really say anything about Kobe missing games.

Quote:

answer this question. who was injury prone prior to this season in your eyes out of these names?(the unlisted names I'm agreeing that they are prone to injury)

Ummm, ok, but this has nothing to do with your above argument being demolished as silliness.

Quote:

---
evans

He missed 8 games in the last two seasons. He only played 10 games as a rookie, but I've got no idea whether it was due to injury or being buried on the bench.

But Evans isn't a playmaker, so I don't know what this has to do with your earlier argument.

Quote:

walton

Luke has never played more than 72 games in a season.

Quote:

vlad rad

3 of his six seasons he's played fewer than 63 games.

Quote:

cook

Who cares about Cook?

Quote:

^^cause those guys were also injured. thats 4 role players. 3 bench guys.

Ummm, ok. And?

Quote:

lets assume kb, lo, and kwame were not injury prone and all 3 played 70 games at full strength for the most part.

We can assume things like this, but what does that have to do with being the best passing team in the league?

Quote:

do you think they would've been able to compete with the elite team's with the other 4 guys going down like that?

They're not an elite team, healthy or not. That isn't really debatable.

Quote:

you must know that if the other 4 role guys went down like that, it would mean more minutes for the big 2(kb, and LO). kwame has a backup thats healthy.

What is your point?

Quote:

So eventually you could forsee an injury or two for KB and LO. because now you're asking the starters to do to much.

Phoenix has a very short bench and their guys stayed healthy.

But again, what does this have to do with the Lakers being the best passing team in the league?

Quote:

it goes hand in hand. its a team sport. 82 games. i need everyone including the ball boy to be healthy. if i want to win a championship. but you know this already.

Ummm, ok. This is a totally different argument than what your quoted above.

Quote:

So the next question would be. who can we trade these injury prone clowns for? since thats what they are in your eyes.

Ummm, I said they didn't lead the league in assists. And that they'd might consider trading ONE injured player for ONE healthy all-star.

Quote:

If i see these guys like you do. and I'm a GM. I'm saying, Give me LO(mr hurt) and Bynum for JO.

This thread isn't about JO.

Quote:

If i see these guys like you do, I'm saying Give me LO and Cook for matrix.

If I see these guys like you do, I'm saying Give me LO and a 1st Rounder for Gwallace and some filler guy(just to make the numbers work).

Ummm, what are you talking about? Total randomness.

Quote:

So if what you're saying is 100% unadulterated truth. then we're dead regardless.

Yes, 100% truth, the Lakers were not the best passing team in the league last season. Focus on your last argument before you branch into these new twists and turns....

Quote:

the only deals we can make is deals where we get the bad end of the stick. 2 for 1's.

How is getting an all-star who is healthy for 2 non all-stars, one of whom will be out of the rotation, the bad end of the stick?

Quote:

So even if we made all the deals we could.

What deals could we make?

Quote:

we have to find 4 FA's on the cheap to fillout the rest of the roster.

Maybe? I don't know what deals we can make. You seem to be privy to special knowledge. A 2-for-1 deal would leave the Lakers with 14 players. Where do you get 4 from?

Quote:

and if we do that. and we end up with lets say JO(injury prone). and he goes like he usually does.

We're not talking about JO. Or at least I'm not.

Quote:

we're in the lottery.

Ok, and we get more young talent. Trade Kobe for more young players, rebuild. I don't see what the problem is.

Quote:

now if thats where you want us to be. cause you dont see any other hope. then so be it. but if thats the case. just say so.

Ummm, unless Bynum can become a dominant center real quick, no, the Lakers are not going to win a championship anytime soon. That is pretty obvious.[/quote]
phoenix has a short bench that stayed healthy. what do they due? play run n gun basketball. which means, you dont have to stand around and bang with people. you hurry up, and score. this is why when its time to bang, they can't get with the program.

i've said this before. the suns game is more of a treadmill workout vs lets say the lakers, where its a fullbody workout. you have more of a chance injuring something when you're doing a fullbody workout. then you do just running.

Last edited by postandpivot on Mon Oct 01, 2007 1:07 pm; edited 1 time in total

Tony Almeida
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Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 12:59 pm Post subject:

Agree to disagree.

LakerSanity
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Joined: 30 Nov 2006
Posts: 33474
Location: Long Beach, California

Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 1:07 pm Post subject:

Tony Almeida wrote:

Agree to disagree.

Never, without those two, this thread might only be 2 pages....
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SCAR
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Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Posts: 901
Location: Salida, California

Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 1:12 pm Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:

Tony Almeida wrote:

Agree to disagree.

Never, without those two, this thread might only be 2 pages....

el oh el
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Tony Almeida
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Posts: 12072

Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 1:16 pm Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:

Tony Almeida wrote:

Agree to disagree.

Never, without those two, this thread might only be 2 pages....

lol.

I had to primarily say it for myself as well, everything I wanted to state, I did...multiple times.

Just going in circles now.

postandpivot
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Joined: 16 Sep 2003
Posts: 36822

Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 2:23 pm Post subject:

Tony Almeida wrote:

Agree to disagree.

i did this like 9 pages ago. but since i looked this morning and saw the pages still turning on this puppy. i figured, what the heck. might as well rev this baby up for another lap or two. LOL. around, and around we go. feels like nascar. The winner will be decided this may. You better hope I'm right?

for the lakers sake.

gng930
Franchise Player

Joined: 13 Apr 2001
Posts: 11481

Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 3:44 pm Post subject:

ericp6387 wrote:

For whatever it's worth, I do believe Odom is a player who makes others better. I don't believe Marion to be that player. And with a young team and with a scorer like Kobe, I think Lamar is important. We were dead even with the Suns two years ago sans Amare, with him, they beat us in 5. The good news is we have young players who will get better. Bynum has to be the guy to bring us closer. He has to be a consistent, legit, post option. This is possible. I still like the kid. Fisher will help with Nash. Crittenton and Farmar will help us with Barbosa. Ronny, Luke, Odom, Radmanovic vs. Hill, Diaw, Marion, Jones? Pretty close. The Suns and Spurs have a combined 9 first or second string players over the age of 30, while the Lakers only have 1 (Fisher). Kobe is absolutely in his prime, but fortunately he is a player that can stay great for another 4-5 years. If Kobe can stick this out, I can see him being for this team what Brett Favre is being for the Packers this year. Kobe really likes Favre, and I hope he is watching how Brett has stayed loyal despite his disagreements with the organization, and is now the leader of a young team that is on the way up. Kobe is 29 while Favre is 37, it's not like Kobe is this gray beard who his on his last legs. Of course, if a move is to be made that will put us closer to the Suns and Spurs, such as Bynum, Farmar, Cook, and Evans for JO, I would do it. By the way, a lot of people were against that trade on these boards. We may not want to do that trade after seeing Bynum, because when I knew Kobe was going to be great was the first game in the strike year, 1999, againt Houston, you could tell how improved the guy was and you knew him and Shaq were talented enough to win. They just had to figure it out. With Lamar, Bynum does not have to be a Kobe, but he has to be a guy that can be our Robert Parish. I believe Bynum has that type of talent.

I don't understand how an excellent help defender like Marion doesn't make his teammates better. People can be awfully offense-centric.

raffi
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Joined: 24 Jun 2005
Posts: 9987

Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 5:57 pm Post subject:

Marion said he still wanted to be traded at today's media day.

re4ee
Franchise Player

Joined: 07 Mar 2005
Posts: 12237

Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 6:05 pm Post subject:

Tony Almeida wrote:

LakerSanity wrote:

Tony Almeida wrote:

Agree to disagree.

Never, without those two, this thread might only be 2 pages....

lol.

I had to primarily say it for myself as well, everything I wanted to state, I did...multiple times.

Just going in circles now.

As have we all, Tony, as have we all. Laker Nation woudn't be the same without all the drama anyway!

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JUST-MING
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Joined: 23 Jun 2005
Posts: 44037

Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 9:49 am Post subject:

postandpivot wrote:

JUST-MING wrote:

postandpivot wrote:

So since KB aint GM as he's stated. shut up and sit down. if you want a guy or guys you think will get it down. start calling your superfriends and begging them to come for cheap. set the thing up. you want matrix? cool. you know good and well he aint enough. so Tell me that you've talked to JO and JO told you he's opting out after this summer. so we're waiting one more summer on JO GUARANTEED. thats how you use your power as a superduper star. Get on the phone with gilbert, and whoever else is going to be free next year(okafor). "hey Ok, i could really use you man. you ever think about taking your game elsewhere?"

thats how you do it.

Kobe called Kidd. He was down. Front office couldn't close a deal, thought he wasn't worth Bynum. Kobe called Garnett. He was down. Front office couldn't close a deal, Charlotte didn't want Jefferson for Wallace. Garnett is with the Celtics. Kobe called O'Neal. He was down. Front office couldn't close a deal, thought Odom and Bynum was too much.

Why call free agents? We don't have the money to pay them, and we don't want to trade any players for them. You act as if the front office would trade Odom and/or Bynum for Okafor and Arenas, when that is clearly not he case. Who is to say those teams want either of those 2 anyway... ??

Kobe called kidd AFTER the fact. meaning after they were already trying to do a deal. you're late KB.

KG called KOBe, and kobe didn't make him feel that he was going to be there for sure. KG said it himself.

now JO situation is probably about hand in hand. they spoke with one another prior to the talks.

who said trade anyone. arenas and okafor will be free agents. thats the best way the lakers can get players that will actually BOOST the probability of them contending vs trading one helper (1.5pts)+one partial helper(0.5 pts) for one supposed better helper(1.75pts). in the end on average you end up with 1.75 vs 2.0 or best case 2.0 vs 2.0. is that Help? NO. its lateral. to stop these lateral moves. you have to pickup a FA or basically cheat someone in a deal.

point is when FA's were available snaq fu got on the phone. cause he knew buss couldn't afford to pay them what they were worth. so snaqs told them, "ay, you come for cheap now. you'll win a ring or two with us, and you're stock will go up like crazy. If you feel like staying to win another ring so be it. this is L.A. you can always make a lot of money in endorsement deals and the entertainment industry because you're face is already out there as a laker. worse case, we dont win it all. and the world knows you because you were a laker and someone overpays for you next year."

^^Thats how you convince a big time FA to sign with your team. you have to work the phones like a booster in a college progam. sure its darn near illegal but hey, you gotta do what you gotta do.

Quote:

"The first thing people say is `Kobe Stopper.' They don't say Ruben Patterson. They say `Kobe Stopper.' But I tell everyone that me and Kobe are good friends now, and he actually tried to get me to the Lakers two years ago."

Source: http://www.dailynews.com/sports/ci_7077810

Kobe has been recuiting free agents for the Lakes for awhile now. It's the front office that hasn't done anything!

Last edited by JUST-MING on Thu Oct 04, 2007 9:51 am; edited 1 time in total

L33T kObE8
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Joined: 24 Jun 2003
Posts: 3006
Location: Arcadia, CA

Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 9:51 am Post subject:

Can we just lock this thread? lol I think it's safe to say that the Lakers won't make a trade now that camp has started. _________________ In regards to a certain fan wanting to cut his wrists: Orestes: "Guess that's one way to find out if you really bleed purple & gold."

postandpivot
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Joined: 16 Sep 2003
Posts: 36822

Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 10:38 am Post subject:

JUST-MING wrote:

postandpivot wrote:

JUST-MING wrote:

postandpivot wrote:

Quote:

Source: http://www.dailynews.com/sports/ci_7077810

Kobe has been recuiting free agents for the Lakes for awhile now. It's the front office that hasn't done anything!

Good move KB. so I'm in correct ONCE when it comes to this topic of KB the GM. but look at the caliber of player ruben is. he's not a star/allstar/superstar. So he doesn't need personal pushing. like, "man, we really need you, etc, etc. Please take less doe even though I know you're worth more." Thats the kind of convo i'm talking about. and the kind of caliber of players people keep mentioning the lakers haven't picked up. Why call Ruben and not call KG personally? Why call Ruben and not call billups/r.lewis prior to them signing with other teams?
[/i]

msb212
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Posts: 9251
Location: Courtside

Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 10:40 am Post subject:

oh please. THe front office has tried to make a hundred deals. I know for a fact that we had a deal fro Reuben and the other side pulled out at the last minute. So tired of this crap.

Wino
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Joined: 07 Jun 2002
Posts: 9674
Location: San Diego

Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 10:44 am Post subject:

Well knowing the Odom is thinking about retiring in a couple of years might effect this trade. Would you rather have Odom for 2 years or Marion for longer? _________________ Never argue with stupid people! They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience!! - Twain

Jeffs
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Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Posts: 25274

Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 12:13 pm Post subject:

msb212 wrote:

oh please. THe front office has tried to make a hundred deals. I know for a fact that we had a deal fro Reuben and the other side pulled out at the last minute. So tired of this crap.

They aren't trying to make reasonable deals. They're only trying to make deals that absolutely (bleep) the other team over. That's not realistic. The Suns are not going to trade Shawn Marion for Kwame Brown and Vladmir Radmanovic. Not a chance. So, while this technically counts as "trying to make a deal," it really makes no sense for the other team, and is just a waste of time. Same thing with Odom/filler for JO. Why would Indiana do that? Makes no sense.

So, just as you said, I am INCREDIBLY tired of this crap. As in the crap that has been passing as the Lakers' front office for the past half decade.

Quote:

Lewis and Billups both wanted big money deals. Especially Billups, who hasn't really had a big contract in his entire NBA career. There is no way that they would have settled for less money.

Furthermore, the Lakers ARE NOT A CONTENDER. Players take less money to join a contender. Why did Malone and Payton take a paycut to play for the Lakers? Not because Shaq is such a good salesman, but because the Lakers had just won 3 freaking championships in a row before finally being dethroned. They knew that they would have a shot at a ring with the Lakers. Can you honestly say that you could promise Billups or Lewis a shot for a title if they joined the Lakers? I couldn't.

I mean, good lord... of all the criticisms I have seen people give Kobe, this is by far the most ridiculous one I have ever seen. Next you guys will be blaming him for not convincing LeBron to sign for the MLE and Bosh to take the LLE.
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Jeffs

I feel like I just watched someone TRULY give 100%. Not the BS I'm-gonna-give-a-110%-just-like-everyone-else-says platitudes, but someone that went until he just....broke. - GT

hi_ma
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Joined: 28 Jan 2007
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Location: watching Kobe /Pau duo.

Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 12:20 pm Post subject:

Everyone says LO is an all-star talent, 20ppg scorer etc. Isnt that what Marion is, but I mean really IS. Not make believe. Marion Is an allstar. he is better defender. He isnt useless w/out the ball. He does rebound. Dont give me LO murders Marion. The Suns murder us. period. You make this trade if avail. no questions. However LO is a really nice compassionat guy. _________________ The lakers will get prince.

Tony Almeida
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Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Posts: 12072

Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 12:34 pm Post subject:

Jeffs wrote:

msb212 wrote:

oh please. THe front office has tried to make a hundred deals. I know for a fact that we had a deal fro Reuben and the other side pulled out at the last minute. So tired of this crap.

Quote:

Amazing isn't it Jeffs?

"Hey Kobe, if you want more talent, you should have gotten Shard and Billups to sign here, don't bother me with the realities of the CBA and petty details like those guys wanting mucho $$$".

Unbelievable.

Tony Almeida
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Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Posts: 12072

Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 12:37 pm Post subject:

hi_ma wrote:

Everyone says LO is an all-star talent, 20ppg scorer etc. Isnt that what Marion is, but I mean really IS. Not make believe. Marion Is an allstar. he is better defender. He isnt useless w/out the ball. He does rebound. Dont give me LO murders Marion. The Suns murder us. period. You make this trade if avail. no questions.

However LO is a really nice compassionat guy.

Just to add on, Marion DOES give us durability, as opposed to us just hoping, wishing, praying, and BEGGING for "average" health from Lamar.

It's just surprising to see people just really really really hoping to get a healthy season out of Lamar, but are so opposed to Marion, when he has shown he will fulfill that requirement year in, year out, no questions asked.

It's not to say Marion will be forever healthy and never miss games, or Lamar will always miss games, it's a matter of track record and the odds, Marion is simply more proven in several key aspects.

Tony Almeida
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Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Posts: 12072

Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 12:43 pm Post subject:

re4ee wrote:

Tony Almeida wrote:

LakerSanity wrote:

Tony Almeida wrote:

Agree to disagree.

Never, without those two, this thread might only be 2 pages....

lol.

I had to primarily say it for myself as well, everything I wanted to state, I did...multiple times.

Just going in circles now.

As have we all, Tony, as have we all. Laker Nation woudn't be the same without all the drama anyway!

True.

THE_SHOES
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Joined: 12 Apr 2001
Posts: 29556
Location: Taiwan

Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 1:05 pm Post subject:

Next month the diss'n of this team, and the members of it, are going to make this thread seem even more ridiculous than it is now.... Count on it... _________________ "According to ESPN.com's conference projections, the Lakers will finish 12th in the West, which prompted Bryant to tweet earlier this offseason, "12th I see.."

hi_ma
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Joined: 28 Jan 2007
Posts: 7952
Location: watching Kobe /Pau duo.

Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 1:08 pm Post subject:

THE_SHOES wrote:

Next month the diss'n of this team, and the members of it, are going to make this thread seem even more ridiculous than it is now....

Count on it...

Wanting to make the team better is not a bad thing. Werent you saying the same thing last year anyway? "go get them fers LO"? Tough to go get them when he is injured on a daily.

hes a great guy though
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The lakers will get prince.

Tony Almeida
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Posts: 12072

Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 1:11 pm Post subject:

Not really "dissing" the team and the members of the team when we are discussing facts and legitimate concerns.

THE_SHOES
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Posts: 29556
Location: Taiwan

Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 1:34 pm Post subject:

Anytime a Laker fan puts another player from another team on a pedestal after a Laker in "really bad shape" outplays that extremely hyped player, ain't no two ways about it Tony, that is straight up diss'n in it's purest form... But hey, the Lakers know better... So as long as you guys can do no more than lay out the diss'n, have at it... You guys may be bitter about the Lakers being smart enough to leave that alone, but in time you'll finally see the light... _________________ "According to ESPN.com's conference projections, the Lakers will finish 12th in the West, which prompted Bryant to tweet earlier this offseason, "12th I see.."

frijolero01
Franchise Player

Joined: 10 May 2005
Posts: 13324

Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 1:37 pm Post subject:

THE_SHOES wrote:

Anytime a Laker fan puts another player from another team on a pedestal after a Laker in "really bad shape" outplays that extremely hyped player, ain't no two ways about it Tony, that is straight up diss'n in it's purest form...

But hey, the Lakers know better... So as long as you guys can do no more than lay out the diss'n, have at it...

You guys may be bitter about the Lakers being smart enough to leave that alone, but in time you'll finally see the light...

when will that be? when LO finally starts producing serious numbers? We've waited 3 years already
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