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Marion for Odom Talk -- PLEASE KEEP ALL MARION DISCUSSION HERE
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JUST-MING
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Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:24 am Post subject:

KobeDunk wrote:

yup thats exactly what it was... Actually KG called KObe and after their conversation it seemed to have fallen apart. The way Kobe and the Laker handled this offseason, startng with Kobe crying to every loser reporter in sight really shot themselves in the foot in trying to get anythng good done this summer. KG may have been a Laker if it wasnt for Kobes tyrade, maybe JO could have been had for a lesser deal but since we look despearte to apease Kobe other GMS will try to rip Mitch off as much as possible. SOrry Kobe, Lakers whomever but you make you make your own bed now sleep in it .

Jermaine wanted to be trade to the Lakers or Knicks. Bird made an offer to the Lakers: Odom + Bynum + Vujacic + 19th pick for O'Neal. Or Odom + Bynum + Vujacic + Brown for O'Neal + Murphy. Lakers countered with Odom + junk for O'Neal and then Bynum + junk for O'Neal.

Pacers had no interest in either lowball offer. O'Neal is still a Pacer.

LakerSanity
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Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:25 am Post subject:

^Man, thanks for showing me those trades again.... huge sigh of relief we didn't bite. _________________ LakersGround's Terms of Service Twitter: @DeleteThisPost

LA_Lakers_Rule
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Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:26 am Post subject:

Tony Almeida wrote:

LA_Lakers_Rule wrote:

First of all you'll have to admit that Kidd, Marbury and Nash are a heck of a lot better PG's than he'll ever have on the Lakers. And basically they make up all of Marion's career but one year.

Obviously. And you'll have to admit we still would have Kobe on this team. Lets not pretend that going from Nash to Kobe is going to be the beginning of the end for poor Shawn Marion, he'll still have a somewhat good player to play with, somewhat.

And you'll have to admit that the Suns with Amare, Nash, Barbosa, Diaw etc (not to mention Matrix) are loaded with established OFFENSIVE talent and thus have a lot more offensive firepower that opens up much more opportunities for Shawn than he would ever have with just KB+SM.

And that's not even taking into consideration Nash's impact as far as facilitating plays.

Tony Almeida wrote:

LA_Lakers_Rule wrote:

Secondly you'll notice that the year he only shot 44% was that very 2003-2004 season you speak of that the PG was ran my committee.

So he really didn't do that exact same thing and as expected fg% went back up with Nash aboard.

Yup, it's an adjustment period. Expectedly it took him a little while to adjust going from having a having a great PG (Kidd) to a good PG (Marbs) to no PG (the committee). Which is why I specifically noted post-ASB, 47% from the field, 39% from three.

Yes but the problem with Matrix on the Lakers is that the adjustment isn't going from PG by committie to an MVP player in Nash but will be adjusting to either Fish or Farmar. Neither compare to Nash.

This is exactly why it is more likely the ~ 44% might be more of a permanent proposition than be considered an adjustment propostion.

Tony Almeida wrote:

LA_Lakers_Rule wrote:

It is likely we see 44% again on the Lakers, frankly. Especially considering Marion will be taking Tri 101.

I might see expecting a low % for a little while (similar to 03-04), but it won't be long before he gets back in the groove. Going from Marbs to PG committee, vs. going from Nash to Kobe and different systems. Potential drop off in production for a little while, eventually talent will trump such "obstacles", as Marion has shown to be capable of.

As I pointed out above the drop off from Nash to Fish or Farmar is not temporary it is what it is. That potential drop off will likely not improve a whole lot. Not to mention Marion entering Tri 101 as I stated as well.

Speaking of the Tri, some are dismissing this point with remarks like "it isn't rocket science", etc. In regards to that I guess maybe I'll take Phil's view on this in as much as he has often stated it is a minimum of 2 years before players generally "get" the Tri.

All of this is why I think the offensive production for the Matrix will suffer to some degree, maybe not a whole lot but enough that the defensive upgrade is basically not enough to compensate to the point where the trade is debatably a lateral move for at least a year or two. And we really don't have a year or two to play with in regards to trades that are really not open and shut a decisive upgrade, imho.
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Tony Almeida
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Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:27 am Post subject:

postandpivot wrote:

Tony Almeida wrote:

Shaq certainly did a bang-up job this year.

He landed the All-Time Great, William H.

Absolutely brilliant, bravissimo.

again i gave my proof. where's your proof that this approach does not work?????

A 40 year old twilight Karl Malone is your proof? A 35 year old Gary Payton is your proof?

You stated, "I said he needs to use that extra energy on calling Rashard lewis, and billups. trying to convince either or both of them to come for GP and Malone money."

Getting Rashard or Billups to come here is just a tad different than getting on the horn and landing Malone/Payton, just a bit.

Please direct me to where and when players in their PRIME who have yet to really get PAID take a SIGNIFICANT pay cut in the CBA.

Tony Almeida
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Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:31 am Post subject:

postandpivot wrote:

LakerSanity wrote:

Tony Almeida wrote:

Shaq certainly did a bang-up job this year.

He landed the All-Time Great, William H.

Absolutely brilliant, bravissimo.

His recruiting skills were also so great, he recruited James Posey for the Celtics and Jason Kapono for the Raptors.

No offense to anyone, but good players go to good teams. Why would you ever take a pay cut unless you were almost gauranteed to going to get something out of it, i.e. title contention? What would coming to LA offer? The LA life? Get a house in malibu for the summer like KG did and then go find yourself a contender to join. Until we are seen as someone to be dealt with, we won't get the bargains out there... just a fact.

You take a pay cut, to WIN. You take a pay cut if you know that if you go to team X, you will be playing with the greatest player of all time perhaps. and he plus you Plus one more is what it takes to get it done. still enough room for you to shine and be reason for the lakers winning again.

again. we're talking in the past. posey left to miami great. the good times are over in miami. he ring chased once over there already. so he's back on the chase. we're talking first time "ring chasers".

Posey was traded to the Heat, he didn't go ring chasing.

re4ee
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Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:33 am Post subject:

JUST-MING wrote:

KobeDunk wrote:

Or so it was RUMORED!
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OregonLakerGuy
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Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:38 am Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:

^Man, thanks for showing me those trades again.... huge sigh of relief we didn't bite.

Tony Almeida
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Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:41 am Post subject:

LA_Lakers_Rule wrote:

And that's not even taking into consideration Nash's impact as far as facilitating plays.

Yes, I already have admitted to him having a more talented team right now, that's obvious. What's also equally obvious is he has produced with not so great talent around him as well, without even a dropoff. So if we're going to try and predict what Marion would do here, considering he has produced in all types of systems and circumstances, INCLUDING the non-favorable ones, it stands to reason playing with Kobe will yield positive results as well. Again, last I checked, he hasn't needed Amare/Nash/Barbosa/etc... to produce the same.exact.numbers. he has his ENTIRE career.

Quote:

Yes but the problem with Matrix on the Lakers is that the adjustment isn't going from PG by committie to an MVP player in Nash but will be adjusting to either Fish or Farmar. Neither compare to Nash.

Not the point. He went from Marbs to PG committee and still produced, this fact can't be denied. What happened AFTER that is he got an MVP player in Nash, and just continued producing, which was to be expected. The comparison is that he went from having a good PG (Marbs) and a stud rookie (Amare) to a PG committee and an injured Amare, but still put up the numbers, so it stands to reason that him being put in a situation that is more favorable than that 2003-2004 season (having Kobe being a running mate is a good thing) will have him produce yet again, as he has shown he consistently does.

Quote:

This is exactly why it is more likely the ~ 44% might be more of a permanent proposition than be considered an adjustment propostion.

You point to a downgrade in PG, I'll point to the upgrade in SG. It's not like this was the only season Marion has averaged these numbers, and when he got up to 47% that one year, he didn't exactly have someone of the caliber of say Kobe Bryant with him.

Quote:

Farmar picked up the triangle pretty quickly correct? Phil may have stated 2 years before players "generally get the tri" (though I'd appreciate a link if you have one), but that doesn't apply to all players. I think Marion's skill set and motivation to learn the triangle will speed up the learning process.

Tony Almeida
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Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:44 am Post subject:

Jeffs wrote:

I really admire your patience, Tony. I have had quite a bit to say to P&P about this, but I just can't get myself to take the time to write it all out, because I know that it will be in vain.

Thanks.

Tony Almeida
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Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:46 am Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:

Tony Almeida wrote:

Shaq certainly did a bang-up job this year.

He landed the All-Time Great, William H.

Absolutely brilliant, bravissimo.

His recruiting skills were also so great, he recruited James Posey for the Celtics and Jason Kapono for the Raptors.

rebirth
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Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:50 am Post subject:

just curious as to why this thread has not been locked and why is it still being discussed? did i miss something here? From all we have seen and read, Marion is not going to be a laker. _________________ “What is 17,505” “Rest at the end not at the middle”

postandpivot
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Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:52 am Post subject:

Tony Almeida wrote:

postandpivot wrote:

but these same guys jeff, the same matrix supporters prior to this deal coming out. were saying, "Ronny can't start, he's foul happy", etc, etc. WE have to start LO at PF. I've stated in the past that we need to leave kwame at center and try to develop mihm at pf for stints. most of these same guys, "mihm is foul prone he's to slow to guard any pf's." the thing is these guys have honest gripes about why ronny nor mihm should be the PF or even start at PF. I'll admit that. So why the change of heart ALL OF A SUDDEN?

Hardly. This is why some get on your case about not fully reading their posts, overgeneralizing, and making false assumptions. There are many "Matrix supporters" who prior to this deal wanted to play Turiaf at the 4. There are legitimate questions of whether or not he can handle the minutes, and then even if he can, whether Phil will slide LO down to the 3. Getting Marion could potentially force Phil's hand and play Marion at the 3, and Turiaf at the 4.

Quote:

oh now cause marion is coming. to protect what they feel is a great trade from being lateral AT BEST in the longhaul(Playoff impact). they try to hide marion's Deficiencies at the PF position. by placing him at SF. even though that means ronny or mihm have to start at pf. which goes against their original way of thinking. so here you go jeffs. thats called REACHING. and usually when you're reaching, their's a problem that you know about that you dont want to admit. this is why i stopped the stat vs stats debate. and went straight for the thing that is most important. "IMPACT". is marion a true IMpact player? NO. based on his numbers he should be. but for whatever reason he isn't.

i stated this earlier. Tyson chandler in a bulls uni vs SHaq two playoffs ago. had more impact in that bulls vs miami series(even though they lost). then marion has had in the spurs series. and we know marion's numbers were better. some people think I'm hating on marion cause I'm in love with odom. thats not the case. i love marion's game. i love the fact that a man dunks when he should. vs laying the ball up. i like finishers. i like guys that move without the ball, i like hustlers. But sometimes that aint enough. is similar to some people who thought shane battier was the answers to all of houston's problems. because he's unselfish, moves well without the ball. plays solid defense, hits open shots etc. but yet and still. he's no where to be found when they need him most. so what good is he really? he was set to be a third IMPACT player for houston. behind mac and yao. but he's like a 5th impact player in reality.

You want to talk about change of heart? Let's talk about the sudden change of heart regarding "impact". Lamar Odom has been the poster boy for such debates, and I know what side of the fence you've been on when someone has called out Lamar's impact for certain games. Now it's fashionable to call out Marion's impact and use that as a prime point? I'm not buying it. Whatever intangibles you want to discuss (i.e. "impact") will be questionable at best when Marion plays the entire season, period. Hell, I wouldn't even mind questionable impact from Lamar if he plays as many games as Marion and brings it on defense, except, he doesn't. So if "impact" is the new thing to criticize Marion on, it's not exactly a great selling point when we're comparing him to Lamar Odom.

Quote:

the difference between marion and LO is in the playoffs vs teams like san an. if the lakers dont get a superior big in the paint. who's more likely to advance beyond the spurs? KB+matrix and usual suspects. or KB+odom and usual suspsect? KB+LO wins this. So lets go a step further.

How can we go a step further when we haven't even played San Antonio thereby making this comparison erroneous. Maybe we'll get to play San Antonio this year in the playoffs. A first round matchup pinning the 6 seeded Lakers vs. the 3 seeded Suprs, a burned out Kobe who had to carry too much of the burden yet again when guys got hurt during the season, and then after a 4-2 series victor for the Spurs, maybe we'll start questioning Lamar's "impact".

and i stand by what i said. dont have a "change of heart" to move ronny to starting PF all of a sudden just to smooth over what we know are Marion deficiencies at the PF spot. NO he doesn't get it done at that spot. because of how they run n gun. you can excuse whatever loss you have there. UNTIL....UNTIL....... the playoffs come and the game slows down and you meet up with the spurs.

again i dont care what you think. a health matrix all season long. wont help the fact that he lack impact in the playoffs. Which will put us in the same place. NON contender. we're non contending now supposedly. we will be noncontending with marion. why do the deal? when we all know LO in the playoffs is better then marion in the playoffs. dont start assuming ronny wont be in foul trouble or mihm or some other miracle will happen to make marion look good. but it couldn't happen to make LO look great as well.

LO 's playoff Impact + 2 yrs of tri exp > Marion's in season stats and healthy- tri exp.

we dont have to agree. but thats where it is. LO has killed marion to further prove my point. LO has impacted the suns in the playoffs enough for them to double team him. when was the last time marion was doubled? when was the last time someone said something besides "we have to try and keep a body on marion"? if all you gotta do is keep a body on marion. then who is he? a Glorified role guy. he's moe evans with more length. thats not bad at all. but it aint worth the trade.

LA_Lakers_Rule
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Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:57 am Post subject:

postandpivot wrote:

JUST-MING wrote:

postandpivot wrote:

So since KB aint GM as he's stated. shut up and sit down. if you want a guy or guys you think will get it down. start calling your superfriends and begging them to come for cheap. set the thing up. you want matrix? cool. you know good and well he aint enough. so Tell me that you've talked to JO and JO told you he's opting out after this summer. so we're waiting one more summer on JO GUARANTEED. thats how you use your power as a superduper star. Get on the phone with gilbert, and whoever else is going to be free next year(okafor). "hey Ok, i could really use you man. you ever think about taking your game elsewhere?"

thats how you do it.

Kobe called Kidd. He was down. Front office couldn't close a deal, thought he wasn't worth Bynum. Kobe called Garnett. He was down. Front office couldn't close a deal, Charlotte didn't want Jefferson for Wallace. Garnett is with the Celtics. Kobe called O'Neal. He was down. Front office couldn't close a deal, thought Odom and Bynum was too much.

Why call free agents? We don't have the money to pay them, and we don't want to trade any players for them. You act as if the front office would trade Odom and/or Bynum for Okafor and Arenas, when that is clearly not he case. Who is to say those teams want either of those 2 anyway... ??

Kobe called kidd AFTER the fact. meaning after they were already trying to do a deal. you're late KB.

KG called KOBe, and kobe didn't make him feel that he was going to be there for sure. KG said it himself.

now JO situation is probably about hand in hand. they spoke with one another prior to the talks.

who said trade anyone. arenas and okafor will be free agents. thats the best way the lakers can get players that will actually BOOST the probability of them contending vs trading one helper (1.5pts)+one partial helper(0.5 pts) for one supposed better helper(1.75pts). in the end on average you end up with 1.75 vs 2.0 or best case 2.0 vs 2.0. is that Help? NO. its lateral. to stop these lateral moves. you have to pickup a FA or basically cheat someone in a deal.

point is when FA's were available snaq fu got on the phone. cause he knew buss couldn't afford to pay them what they were worth. so snaqs told them, "ay, you come for cheap now. you'll win a ring or two with us, and you're stock will go up like crazy. If you feel like staying to win another ring so be it. this is L.A. you can always make a lot of money in endorsement deals and the entertainment industry because you're face is already out there as a laker. worse case, we dont win it all. and the world knows you because you were a laker and someone overpays for you next year."

^^Thats how you convince a big time FA to sign with your team. you have to work the phones like a booster in a college progam. sure its darn near illegal but hey, you gotta do what you gotta do.

Exactly...

Most importantly and what I've been saying as well over and over:

Quote:

to stop these lateral moves. you have to pickup a FA or basically cheat someone in a deal.

The free agent plan dried up and the fact of the matter is lopsided deals involving star players is difficult at best and compounded when teams will not deal with you as is the case with the Celtic "freezeout".
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JUST-MING
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Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 11:00 am Post subject:

postandpivot wrote:

LO 's playoff Impact + 2 yrs of tri exp > Marion's in season stats and healthy- tri exp.

What impact? We haven't gotten out of the first round yet. The past three years, Marion has gone to the WCF.

OregonLakerGuy wrote:

LakerSanity wrote:

^Man, thanks for showing me those trades again.... huge sigh of relief we didn't bite.

I would've settled for Odom and Bynum for O'Neal. I don't think the pick was all that important.

Tony Almeida
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Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 11:06 am Post subject:

postandpivot wrote:

again i dont care what you think.

Ok?

Quote:

a health matrix all season long. wont help the fact that he lack impact in the playoffs. Which will put us in the same place. NON contender. we're non contending now supposedly. we will be noncontending with marion. why do the deal? when we all know LO in the playoffs is better then marion in the playoffs.

We're non-contenders with Odom as well. Difference being I'm going to improve my roster when I get the chance, especially if it's not going to effect the future. We're waiting on Bynum in either scenario, Bynum or Bust, I'd rather be better prepared with more legitimate playoff experience if/when Bynum is ready, instead of being first round fodder year in year out. Adding Marion could be the difference between a 6-9 seed and a 4-5 seed and potentially getting out of the first round, I'll take it.

Oh and you don't "know" LO is better in the playoffs than Marion, lets wait and see how LO does when we actually play more than one series.

Quote:

LO 's playoff Impact + 2 yrs of tri exp > Marion's in season stats and healthy- tri exp.

Lamar's playoff impact has led us to what exactly? The cost of his playoff impact is lower seeding which is a direct consequence of him missing games.

Quote:

we dont have to agree. but thats where it is. LO has killed marion to further prove my point.

Another myth that has proven false time and time again. This whole "killed" Marion, "owned" Marion, "pwned" Marion, and any variation is something that does not hold up once the facts are introduced and reviewed.

Quote:

LO has impacted the suns in the playoffs enough for them to double team him. when was the last time marion was doubled? when was the last time someone said something besides "we have to try and keep a body on marion"? if all you gotta do is keep a body on marion. then who is he? a Glorified role guy. he's moe evans with more length. thats not bad at all. but it aint worth the trade.

So in this thread we have seen posters claim Marion would be benched in favor of Luke Walton, that Vlad for Marion is too much to give up, and now he's just a glorified role guy, essentially Mo Evans with more length.

I could have sworn it was the "other side of things" that was making accusations that Marion supporters are stretching things and propping him up oh so much, and minimizing Lamar down to laughable status - yet I don't see any of that, but I certainly see more of the flip side. Strange.

postandpivot
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Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 11:11 am Post subject:

Tony Almeida wrote:

LA_Lakers_Rule wrote:

And that's not even taking into consideration Nash's impact as far as facilitating plays.

Quote:

Yes but the problem with Matrix on the Lakers is that the adjustment isn't going from PG by committie to an MVP player in Nash but will be adjusting to either Fish or Farmar. Neither compare to Nash.

Quote:

This is exactly why it is more likely the ~ 44% might be more of a permanent proposition than be considered an adjustment propostion.

Quote:

I think Marion's skill set and motivation to learn the triangle will speed up the learning process

^^see again, YOU"RE REACHING plastic man. Sure you may be 100% correct. but where are you getting these ideas from? that he's oh so motivated to learn the triangle.

and what skill set? he's not a known triangle type passer. he's a quick hitting offensive player at his best. sure he moves well without the ball. But so does mo evans. he was still in the wrong place at the wrong time in the offense often.

as smart as karl malone was. he was not running the tri properly most of the year he was here. if you know how its supposed to be ran you know he was fudging it because he was an ELITE high post player. something marion is not. so that covered up a lot of malone's errors in running the offense. just like if Cwebb were to come here. smarts or no smarts. he would look decent to start because of his ELITE high post play. again marion does not have that in his arsenal(or atleast we have never seen this).
for all we know Marion is the best passing forward in the history of the game. but we have never seen marion utilize this skill. we know his 3ball aint hot. Not saying lo's is either. but again, we're talking about why you think marion's skill set fits the tri so well. to the point of him learning it faster then most.

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Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 11:15 am Post subject:

postandpivot wrote:

Tony Almeida wrote:

postandpivot wrote:

Quote:

Hahahaha! P&P! I was already a huge fan, but dude! I'm enjoying the truth! I need not do nothing more than enjoy you opening up can after can of Whup Ass! I think I'll just stay out of you, and Wolfy's way!
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Tony Almeida
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Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 11:21 am Post subject:

postandpivot wrote:

^^see again, YOU"RE REACHING plastic man.

Ok?

Quote:

Sure you may be 100% correct. but where are you getting these ideas from? that he's oh so motivated to learn the triangle.

From Shawn Marion himself:

Quote:

I think I would fit right in," Marion said. "People talk about the triangle offense all the time, like it is impossible. But it's an offense. Wherever you play, you have to learn the offense. It's not that complicated. You pass, you cut, you slash. Offense is offense. And I would love to play with Kobe."

Sounds like a guy that isn't overly worried about the offense to me, and adding in the Kobe statement makes me believe he would be motivated to figure it out and be successful.

Quote:

and what skill set? he's not a known triangle type passer. he's a quick hitting offensive player at his best. sure he moves well without the ball. But so does mo evans. he was still in the wrong place at the wrong time in the offense often.

as smart as karl malone was. he was not running the tri properly most of the year he was here. if you know how its supposed to be ran you know he was fudging it because he was an ELITE high post player. something marion is not. so that covered up a lot of malone's errors in running the offense. just like if Cwebb were to come here. smarts or no smarts. he would look decent to start because of his ELITE high post play. again marion does not have that in his arsenal(or atleast we have never seen this).
for all we know Marion is the best passing forward in the history of the game. but we have never seen marion utilize this skill. we know his 3ball aint hot. Not saying lo's is either. but again, we're talking about why you think marion's skill set fits the tri so well. to the point of him learning it faster then most.

Comparing Mo Evans "difficulty' to grasp the triangle with Marion's potential difficulties? Talent will trump the growing pains and learning period for the triangle, Marion is no Mo Evans.

THE_SHOES
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Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 11:28 am Post subject:

Marion is no Malone, or Payton either, what does that prove? Malone adlibed,and Gary still hasn't got a clue as to what was going on... Everybody cannot play in the triangle offensive system. That would especially mean guys who have excelled in wide open systems like the run-n-fun bunch that Marion has always been a part of... I'm not saying Shawn wouldn't get it, but I do no the system would alter some of his strengths early on if not for a longer time than anticipated... Making ignorant statements like that could stem from trying to piss off your current owner more than any real confidence... _________________ "According to ESPN.com's conference projections, the Lakers will finish 12th in the West, which prompted Bryant to tweet earlier this offseason, "12th I see.."

Tony Almeida
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Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 11:40 am Post subject:

THE_SHOES wrote:

Marion is no Malone, or Payton either, what does that prove? Malone adlibed,and Gary still hasn't got a clue as to what was going on... Everybody cannot play in the triangle offensive system. That would especially mean guys who have excelled in wide open systems like the run-n-fun bunch that Marion has always been a part of...

And Farmar's no Payton, how long did it take him to figure it out?

Quote:

I'm not saying Shawn wouldn't get it, but I do no the system would alter some of his strengths early on if not for a longer time than anticipated...

And I've already agreed with that, there will be an adjustment period, that should be obvious. Just like there was an adjustment period going from always having a great PG, to none, he still ended up figuring it out. If the absolute worst case scenario were to play out, where Marion just didn't "get it" and was atrocious, then let him walk next summer and create the necessary cap space for JO or Brand. It's not the end of the world, it really isn't.

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Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 11:50 am Post subject:

Tony, you and I both know that setting things up for big signings is extremely dangerous don't we? JO's body will be worse next year than it is this year more than likely... The Pacers want him gone anyway. If he is serious about all that love for the Lakers that he has been quoted on, then he should be easily signed. No? Elton Brand will be resigned with the Clipps, and you can bet heavily on that. So these Hail Mary moves are totally uneccessary... The right thing to do is reassemble Knowlegedable now healthy troops that have been playing together,and be able to come out with guns blazing in the first game, instead of carrying any students who need to be brought up to speed? Especially when the addition to the squad at best is minimal, if at all... Why do folks feel that is such a horrible idea? Marion is no KG, this is not such a big deal... _________________ "According to ESPN.com's conference projections, the Lakers will finish 12th in the West, which prompted Bryant to tweet earlier this offseason, "12th I see.." Last edited by THE_SHOES on Mon Oct 01, 2007 12:27 pm; edited 2 times in total

wolfpaclaker
Retired Number

Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 58450

Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 11:55 am Post subject:

Jam - Odom for Wallace wasn't for the Lakers. It was part of a big 3 way deal that would have landed the Lakers KG with Wallace and Bynum and a few other pieces going to Minny.

Tony Almeida
Retired

Joined: 05 Jan 2006
Posts: 12072

Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 11:59 am Post subject:

THE_SHOES wrote:

Tony, you and I both know that setting things up for big signings is extremely dangerous don't we? JO's body will be worse next year than it is this year more than likely... The Pacers want him gone anyway. If he is serious about all that love for the Lakers that he has been quoted on, then he should be easily signed. No?

Naturally JO's body will have more wear and tear on it after this season, just like Kobe's, just like Lamar's, it's normal.

But he won't easily be signed if we only have the MLE to offer him, he's not opting out of that deal for THAT much of a paycut. Have to clear the necessary cap space, and we can get about 16 mil of it if we do this Marion deal and then let a couple other guys go (Kwame/Sasha), LS outlined it a few pages back.

Is it dangerous? Of course it is. It's certainly a risk, and I acknowledge that. But that also happens to be what I see as worst case - cap space and then landing the FA with said cap space. Not a terrible idea to me.

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Elton Brand will be resigned with the Clipps, and you can bet heavily on that.

So these hale Mary moves are totally uneccessary...

Well I don't see this as a Hail Mary move, our future is still protected and unaltered after such a move, and we get a player who is very durable and is there for the entire season, the risk of injury isn't as high.

Quote:

The right thing to do is reassemble Knowlegedable troops that have been playing together,and be able to come out with guns blazing in the first game, instead of carrying any students who need to be brought up to speed? Especially when the addition to the squad at best is minimal, if at all?

Why do folks feel that is such a horrible idea?

Marion is no KG, this is not such a big deal...

Well I don't think move at best is minimal, at worst laterally for me, but I've stated this repeatedly already, no need to rehash.

And it's not such a horrible idea to leave it as is with our more experienced players, no triangle 101, etc. etc. That's the reality of the situation, and it happens to be a very conservative choice. I just happen to believe it's a better idea to go with less of a risk this upcoming season, since I happen to believe if we don't get out of the first round this year, next offseason is going to be UGLY, and I believe Marion playing the entire season is a better bet than Odom playing the entire season, and therefore the Lakers stand a better chance to accomplish the goal for this season with Marion instead of Odom.

Last edited by Tony Almeida on Mon Oct 01, 2007 12:38 pm; edited 1 time in total

Laker's Fan
Franchise Player

Joined: 27 Jun 2002
Posts: 12926

Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 12:05 pm Post subject:

Whoever has Marion this year, san an extension, might face competition for his services from both Golden State and Toronto. If Baron opt out (which he will) GS could start Monta and make a lucrative offer to Marion. Collangelo has a tougher situation but he also hase a lot of moveable pieces at or under MLE $ that expire next year. _________________ Austin Reaves keeps his game tight, like Kobe Bryant on game night.

RG73
Franchise Player

Joined: 14 Jul 2001
Posts: 11508

Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 12:42 pm Post subject:

postandpivot wrote:

if you're saying

I was saying the Lakers were never the best passing team in the league.

Reading is fundamental.

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the lakers have injury prone players outside of odom and kwame.

They do.

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then you're also talking about Kobe, cause either he's injured or in eagle, co.

Yes, Kobe has spent so much time in Eagle.

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this is the first time in who knows how long where the man FINALLY had a free summer, and is coming into camp 110% ready.

Ok, but that wasn't really your argument. Your argument was about the Lakers being the best passing team in the league because George Karl said so, despite not leading the league in passing statistics.

[/=quote] so put kobe on that list. and since he's on that list lets trade his injury prone (darn near never in camp at 100%, always got a problem, etc, etc). RIGHT?

I'm just using your logic. "lakers will never win with injury prone players." RIGHT?

[/quote]

No, I was pointing out that the Lakers weren't the best passing team in the league since they neither led the league in assists, nor fewest turnovers. I didn't really say anything about Kobe missing games.

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answer this question. who was injury prone prior to this season in your eyes out of these names?(the unlisted names I'm agreeing that they are prone to injury)

Ummm, ok, but this has nothing to do with your above argument being demolished as silliness.

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---
evans

He missed 8 games in the last two seasons. He only played 10 games as a rookie, but I've got no idea whether it was due to injury or being buried on the bench.

But Evans isn't a playmaker, so I don't know what this has to do with your earlier argument.

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walton

Luke has never played more than 72 games in a season.

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vlad rad

3 of his six seasons he's played fewer than 63 games.

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cook

Who cares about Cook?

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^^cause those guys were also injured. thats 4 role players. 3 bench guys.

Ummm, ok. And?

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lets assume kb, lo, and kwame were not injury prone and all 3 played 70 games at full strength for the most part.

We can assume things like this, but what does that have to do with being the best passing team in the league?

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do you think they would've been able to compete with the elite team's with the other 4 guys going down like that?

They're not an elite team, healthy or not. That isn't really debatable.

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you must know that if the other 4 role guys went down like that, it would mean more minutes for the big 2(kb, and LO). kwame has a backup thats healthy.

What is your point?

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So eventually you could forsee an injury or two for KB and LO. because now you're asking the starters to do to much.

Phoenix has a very short bench and their guys stayed healthy.

But again, what does this have to do with the Lakers being the best passing team in the league?

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it goes hand in hand. its a team sport. 82 games. i need everyone including the ball boy to be healthy. if i want to win a championship. but you know this already.

Ummm, ok. This is a totally different argument than what your quoted above.

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So the next question would be. who can we trade these injury prone clowns for? since thats what they are in your eyes.

Ummm, I said they didn't lead the league in assists. And that they'd might consider trading ONE injured player for ONE healthy all-star.

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If i see these guys like you do. and I'm a GM. I'm saying, Give me LO(mr hurt) and Bynum for JO.

This thread isn't about JO.

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If i see these guys like you do, I'm saying Give me LO and Cook for matrix.

If I see these guys like you do, I'm saying Give me LO and a 1st Rounder for Gwallace and some filler guy(just to make the numbers work).

Ummm, what are you talking about? Total randomness.

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So if what you're saying is 100% unadulterated truth. then we're dead regardless.

Yes, 100% truth, the Lakers were not the best passing team in the league last season. Focus on your last argument before you branch into these new twists and turns....

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the only deals we can make is deals where we get the bad end of the stick. 2 for 1's.

How is getting an all-star who is healthy for 2 non all-stars, one of whom will be out of the rotation, the bad end of the stick?

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So even if we made all the deals we could.

What deals could we make?

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we have to find 4 FA's on the cheap to fillout the rest of the roster.

Maybe? I don't know what deals we can make. You seem to be privy to special knowledge. A 2-for-1 deal would leave the Lakers with 14 players. Where do you get 4 from?

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and if we do that. and we end up with lets say JO(injury prone). and he goes like he usually does.

We're not talking about JO. Or at least I'm not.

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we're in the lottery.

Ok, and we get more young talent. Trade Kobe for more young players, rebuild. I don't see what the problem is.

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now if thats where you want us to be. cause you dont see any other hope. then so be it. but if thats the case. just say so.

Ummm, unless Bynum can become a dominant center real quick, no, the Lakers are not going to win a championship anytime soon. That is pretty obvious.

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