Some Site Mods Acting Like Thought Police...

 
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RedSnapper
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 1:33 am    Post subject: Some Site Mods Acting Like Thought Police...

Recently, I was banned for a time after uncharacteristically losing my tember with a "Site Staff" member who was and continues acting like the "Thought Police," tossing one-liner insults impugning the motivations of site members with whom he disagrees. He does this repeatedly, aggressively, and several times a day, without regard to any explanation or depth of thought/effort put into the "offending" post he is reacting to.

I admit, I should not have lost my temper, but I also think it is not in this site's best interests to have staff members with moderator authority running around acting like provocateurs, goading contributors with shallow quasi-insults, then banning them as soon as one "steps out of line".

Popcorn Machine should tone down his act, offering posters with whom he disagrees at least the same level of thought-out and reasoned counter-points, instead of one-line insults that question the core motivations of fans he knows nothing about while showing absolutely no interest in reading anything but the "bottom line" before "whacking 'em."

If he can't control himself enough to do that, he should resign or be stripped of his moderating powers, because prominently featuring a "cop" with a bad attitude and a trigger finger will certainly serve to lower the overall level of discourse on this site.

I don't think that was Jason's original intent, but then again, I don't know if the "founders" are even still around.

If this is the "new" direction, you needn't worry about being bothered by me, anymore. I requested my account be deleted and my name removed from the "Hall of Fame" while serving my time, after no response to earlier inquiries. I'm initially glad to be back, but if this is the "New LG" it won't hurt my feelings if they carry out that request.
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PopcornMachine
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 8:23 am    Post subject:

I disagreed with your post.

You called me a moron.

That is a personal attack.

End of story.
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wolfpaclaker
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 9:22 am    Post subject:

Popcorn Machiine's takes are refreshing. Unlike most he doesn't post like a puppet.

I haven't seen him ban anyone unfairly but I don't follow everything.

Basically no matter what your take is as long as you keep it respectful towards the mods and don't go way out of line with bypassing swearing filters or other important rules .. you won't get banned on LG. I mean look at me .. over 20,000 posts with tons of heated debates and they still don't ban me
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RedSnapper
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 12:46 pm    Post subject: Well, here is an excerpt from the thread....

I have no problem with being suspended for saying what I did. I do have a problem with the shallow, name-calling post that provoked my outburst. (In bold) The choice of words may fall short of "the line" but the tone and meaning of that post is qualitatively no different from that of the post that got me banned.

Had we both been banned, I would have not objected at all. I think we both deserved it. Unfortunately, this seems to be the quality of message PM generates all the time.

This same kind of shallow, useless, name-calling shout-down is repeated by PM over and over again in several threads in response to several members' messages.

I am mystified at how this kind of repetitive, hostile, insolent dreck can be called "refreshing". It contributes absolutely nothing of substance to any conversation, and lowers both the level of discourse and the overall mood of the board in general. If this board had my name at the top, I would be embarrassed by this behavior. Fortunately, it is not.


I've included additional posts from that thread from people who disagree with me, and generally agree with PM, but choose to express that in ways that actually stimulate discussion, rather than dismissively shutting it off.

Silly me, I thought that was the IDEA of boards like this.

Quote:
If Kobe gets traded..... BOYCOTT ALL LAKER GAMES AT STAPLES

RedSnapper
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If they trade away Kobe Bryant, it won't take any effort from me to stay away from Laker games. The Lakers I am a fan of will have ceased to exist.

I've been a Laker fan for 36 years. I've resided in the LA area for 21 of those years. Season tickets are out of the realm of reality for me, but I try to go to a couple of games a year. I went to more games in the 1992-95 years than any other stretch, so I am no "fair-weather" fan, and am certainly not more aligned with any individual player than I am the team.

However, what has attracted me to the team - in addition to the winning - is the class organization they once were. They didn't win by accident, they made it a priority. Other players wanted to play for them, because they always take care of their own. Serve the Lakers well, and you are always a Laker. There are many, many examples of such players who did not spend the majority of their career here, but who are welcomed as family because of how they spent that limited time with the team.

If the Lakers trade away Kobe Bryant, instead of honoring their commitment to win with him - the greatest player in the league who has served them well for many years - then these Lakers are no longer the Lakers I have been a fan of for 36 years, and I will apologize to no one, and take crap from no one for that stand. After this many years through thick and thin, I think I - and many others like me - deserve the benefit of any doubt on that score.

If/when the fans start leaving in droves, and the Lakers become the old Clippers, no one who understands this experience will accuse us of being "fair weather" fans. IT will be the organization that will bear the brunt of the responsibility - and the financial burden.

The thing is, even if they build it back up, a lot of those fans who leave will not be coming back. We won't be leaving because of losing, and we won't be coming back for winning. It is about character. If they let "Laker Lifer" Kobe slip away, they no longer have it - no matter how many wins they later accrue.
PopcornMachine
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RedSnapper wrote:
If they trade away Kobe Bryant, it won't take any effort from me to stay away from Laker games. The Lakers I am a fan of will have ceased to exist.


Just another way to say you are a Kobe only fan.

RedSnapper
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PopcornMachine wrote:
RedSnapper wrote:
If they trade away Kobe Bryant, it won't take any effort from me to stay away from Laker games. The Lakers I am a fan of will have ceased to exist.


Just another way to say you are a Kobe only fan.


Brilliant deduction, moron. Try reading the rest of the passage.

If you still think that, I can't help you, and I don't much care.
drew4lakers
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RedSnapper wrote:
PopcornMachine wrote:
RedSnapper wrote:
If they trade away Kobe Bryant, it won't take any effort from me to stay away from Laker games. The Lakers I am a fan of will have ceased to exist.


Just another way to say you are a Kobe only fan.


Brilliant deduction, moron. Try reading the rest of the passage.

If you still think that, I can't help you, and I don't much care.


I read your post and i understand where you are coming from.

True, there are going to be a large number of Kobe only fans who will leave and follow Kobe to wherever he goes IF the Lakers decide to trade him. A percentage of them never have been Laker fans anyway.

However, there will also be a large number of true Laker fans who will also step away because it will be the final straw, because it would seem to fully expose the organization as no longer being the same in spirit and competence as the one that has been loved and appreciated for decades.

To me its just flat out wrong to lump both groups together.

The Lakers isn't just the local franchise or a name or a logo to many. Its a winning tradition and a model organization. But traditions die when those charged with maintaining it aren't up to the challenge. Boston fans have come to see it. Disappointment, then anger, then gradually - apathy. Reduced to hoping blind luck will make things better because there is no faith the organization's decision-makers can get them there without it.

To me its not just about this summer. They've had three summers before this one, and quite frankly, years before that as well. The original 2007 plan was reluctantly accepted, but clearly fell apart and was never really replaced.

Had smart moves been made year after year - or even just occasionally, the level of talent would have gradually improved. But I haven't really seen this. at least not to the level where we could honestly look ourselves in the mirror and say 'we're a contender." Thats why i identify with Kobe's comments. He has been a little too emotional in expressing what he is expressing, but then so are most of us. But Kobe hasn't been the only one talking - just the most important. Phil, Rambis, Jeannie, Jim, the "insider", etc.

So this isn't just about Kobe, its an organizational problem, a crisis actually.

Kobe staying or going isn't really the first problem that needs to be solved to get us back on track.
DaMuleRules
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RedSnapper wrote:
If the Lakers trade away Kobe Bryant, instead of honoring their commitment to win with him - the greatest player in the league who has served them well for many years - then these Lakers are no longer the Lakers I have been a fan of for 36 years,


Well, one has to keep in mind that the trade, if it occurs, ONLY occurs because Kobe demanded it. Now we can talk about "commitments" to win with him, and while I am not wild about their efforts to do so (or rather failing to do so), there are no guarantees and things change. Things don't always go the way one hopes or PLANS - even if one is sincerely trying to keep that commitment. Or sometimes the "commitment" is interpeted differently by different parties. And the levels of success at meeting that commitment are stratified in different ways from different perspectives. Maybe the Lakers flat out lied to Kobe - though I tend to doubt it. At least not in those concrete defintive terms. The decision to end this relationship will most definitely be a two way street forced by the insistence of only ONE party.

So to some of us, laying this all at the feet of the Lakers doesn't really sound like the actions of a Lakers first fan. Disagree all you wish. But the facts remain, it takes two to tango and NEITHER party has danced this dance entirely well.
Quote:
and I will apologize to no one, and take crap from no one for that stand.


You don't need to apologize. I doubt anyone will ask you to. We are all entitled to take our own paths and severe our own relationships - as Kobe may have chosen to do. And, whether "right" or "wrong", he (and those who have chosen to attach their allegiance from the Lakers to him over this incident) will probably end up taking some crap. Just the way it is. Anytime there is a severing of loyalties - for whatever reason - it isn't always going to wash well with everyone involved and passionate about it.
Quote:
After this many years through thick and thin, I think I - and many others like me - deserve the benefit of any doubt on that score.


And some would argue, and not inaccurately at all, that after all those years - of Championships, entertainment, successes, rough spots and surprises and enjoyment for the fans - that the Lakers have a similar expectation of deserving the benefit of the doubt for that score.
Quote:
If/when the fans start leaving in droves, and the Lakers become the old Clippers, no one who understands this experience will accuse us of being "fair weather" fans.


Well, I can only think back to when some of us suffered through the Pfund/Magic/Harris years. Some fans left, but droves remained and took faith in the Lakers despite the rough spots and mistakes. They were rewarded with a wonderful 3peat further down the road and that experience can never be taken from them - no matter whether rough roads followed or not. Those who resurfaced for the joys of that success were certainly fairweather fans. And as one who understands THAT period and THIS period I can say fully that "fairweather" would apply to those who bail out now. Of course, if those who bail out have the "integrity" to stay away, then they are less "fairweather" than unappreciative. But to each his own. I just know that none can claim that they are a "thick and thin" fan - at least not for the long haul.

Everyone has their limits. Everyone has their own threshold of endurance. Can't go through life trying to force your limits based on someone else's standards. That applies to the Lakers as well. If the lose some fans, it won't be the first time. If they gain some more in the future, similarly it won't be the first time.
Quote:
IT will be the organization that will bear the brunt of the responsibility - and the financial burden.


The franchise is only a part of the equation. (bleep) happens. Players demand trades. Bad blood brews. Frustrations boil over. The franchise can control only how they handle things and how they react to the way others handle things. They can only be responsible under those guidelines. They can't control Kobe, so they can't be held overly accountable for his demands and expectations. Sure, they can screw it up - and may do so. But the situation doesn't arise in a vacuum devoid of anyone else's actions.
Quote:
The thing is, even if they build it back up, a lot of those fans who leave will not be coming back.


Well, then we can really talk about those who are fairweather and those who truly aren't. Though on one level, those who do come back as fairweather fans are closer to being Lakers fans than those who chose to follow Kobe into the sunset permanently. Those who do stay away can certainly say they weren't fairweather fans in the full sense. But they did choose to leave when the team was down. So, right or wrong, they didn't exactly walk on purely honorable terms. They certainly call it an act born out of a feeling of being let down. And the Lakers, and remaining fans, can certainly feel letdown by those who bailed after years of good times and happiness.
Quote:
We won't be leaving because of losing, and we won't be coming back for winning. It is about character.


After all these years, all these Championships, how the Busses have handled so many other situations, Magic's situation, supporting Kobe through the Eagle mess, being possibly OVERLY loyal to guys like Mitch and Rambis (let's face it, by the end of the summer the number of significant former Lakers who truly have venemous things to say about the Lakers under Buss may take a total of 2 fingers) etc. . . . if "character" is based on how the Lakers handle this stretch of struggle and one player - to whom they have been abundantly helpful too - then the Lakers are probably better off without fans so focused on a period of strife and whose assessment of "character" appears very shortsighted.

Don't get me wrong. I am pissed as hell at the Lakers. You should see the language (strong, suspicious, condemning - not foul) in the 3 letters I have written to the FO in the last 2 days. I will NOT be happy if they screw this up. But after MY 36 yeqars as a fan, I realize there is a bigger picture than these last 3 yeaqrs reveals - especially when viewed outside of the perspective of the pain of these 3 years. It will take more than this to entirely chase me off - though I may make a financial decision to keep some of my money rather than spend it on futility. But I sure won't be tossing my jersies. I won't stop watching, rooting and hoping for a return to greatness. Not after all these years. Not over 3 that went badly.
Quote:
If they let "Laker Lifer" Kobe slip away, they no longer have it - no matter how many wins they later accrue.


Well, the "Laker for Life" ccan only remain one if he chooses, and certain surrenders that moniker. But that's cool. That's your course to set. Enjoy the journey. It will be too bad that if/when another banner(s) go up in Staples you won't be there to gaze up at it with fond memories. Your loss. NOT the Lakers.

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PopcornMachine
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 1:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Well, here is an excerpt from the thread....

RedSnapper wrote:
I have no problem with being suspended for saying what I did. I do have a problem with the shallow, name-calling post that provoked my outburst. (In bold) The choice of words may fall short of "the line" but the tone and meaning of that post is qualitatively no different from that of the post that got me banned.

Had we both been banned, I would have not objected at all. I think we both deserved it. Unfortunately, this seems to be the quality of message PM generates all the time.

This same kind of shallow, useless, name-calling shout-down is repeated by PM over and over again in several threads in response to several members' messages.


I simply responded to your thread. There was nothing shallow, useless, name-calling or shout-down about it. I merely disagreed with your conclusion.

The name-calling was all on your part. So I don't see what your point is. I suggest you take it up with Jason. I really have nothing more to add.

RedSnapper wrote:
PopcornMachine wrote:
RedSnapper wrote:
If they trade away Kobe Bryant, it won't take any effort from me to stay away from Laker games. The Lakers I am a fan of will have ceased to exist.


Just another way to say you are a Kobe only fan.


Brilliant deduction, moron. Try reading the rest of the passage.

If you still think that, I can't help you, and I don't much care.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 1:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Well, here is an excerpt from the thread....

PopcornMachine wrote:
I don't see what your point is.


Well, at least we've found something we can agree on.
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RedSnapper
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 4:02 pm    Post subject: OK, I'll expound...

You didn't "simply respond to my thread" you responded with an opinion.

You didn't respond with an opinion about the issues that I discussed, but an opinion about ME.

You not only responded with an opinion about me, but an opinion about me that could only be justified by completely ignoring 90% of my original post.

And to top it all off, you didn't even bother to justify or explain that opinion about me, you just blurted it out.

This "response" of yours amounted to nothing more than name-calling of the most disrespectful kind. (Apparently, if I am disagreeing with you, nothing else I say is worth addressing - or even reading. I'm just a so-and-so for thinking that way, and to you, that should be self-evident.)

I'm not alone. You continue to treat member after member who expresses similar feelings about how the Lakers are conducting business in exactly the same way.

The point is, you are guilty of violating the exact same policy I was suspended for violating, and you are doing it over and over on the board. Your conduct is not only hypocritical, it is actively degrading the overall climate on the board. Yet, you continue to occupy the position of "enforcer" on the board, essentially assuming the conduct of a dirty cop.

It isn't very appealing.

Try reading the posts you respond to, and try expressing disagreement with their arguments, not their personal qualities, of which you know nothing.

You think I am off base? Ask around among your peers. If you are as good a guy as I am led to believe, at least one of them will both agree with what I am saying, and have the courage to tell you.
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Arnie
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:46 pm    Post subject:

RedSnapper just drop it, please.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 6:00 pm    Post subject:

Arnie wrote:
RedSnapper just drop it, please.


A completely unnecessary post.

Since we'd left it at "I don't understand" I felt it must be necessary to explain myself. Unless there is some material response, I hadn't intended to say anything more. (I only returned because I was notified of the presence of a response.)

So, with that caveat, consider it dropped.
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wolfpaclaker
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 7:19 am    Post subject:

Red Snapper, correct me if I'm wrong .. but didn't you call him a moron when he suggested that you were a Kobe only fan?

You've served your suspension and now can post as much as you want.

Just move on.

Mike (@) LG suspended me a few years back when I first started posting on LG. It happens. I got over it. Learned what was too much and what was acceptable. I suggest you do the same as I doubt you'd be suspended ever again if you learn from this whole thing.
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RedSnapper
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 7:44 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
Red Snapper, correct me if I'm wrong .. but didn't you call him a moron when he suggested that you were a Kobe only fan?

You've served your suspension and now can post as much as you want.

Just move on.

Mike _at_ LG suspended me a few years back when I first started posting on LG. It happens. I got over it. Learned what was too much and what was acceptable. I suggest you do the same as I doubt you'd be suspended ever again if you learn from this whole thing.


It appears the concept I'm trying to convey is over the heads of some. I have not protested my suspension once, and this thread is not about the suspension. I guess telling someone to "drop it" is a lot easier than actually responding to the topic.

If you want me to drop it, quit posting completely pointless messages telling me what to do.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 8:46 pm    Post subject:

Just taking a step back from the original 'confrontation' and the actions following, my observations is that during the past two months, there have been many conversations regarding the state of the team, the loyalty/dedication of Kobe for the Lakers, as well as how the Lakers should process to cause an end to the stagnant state the team has been in for 3-4 years.

I just returned from New York, and had a nice to meet a lot of interesting people out there. I found it interesting for one that some people do use certain vocabulary (that would get bleeped by the LG censor), but do not necessarily mean to call someone out and resort to name-calling. In the past, I know this has happened where a moderator may have called a fan/user a name, without the intent of name-calling, more of a casual use of certain terminology.

I'm not here to state which words should or should not be used. The internet is a place for people to be free in expressing themselves. On the same token, one has to consider how the other people they interact with will respond/take those comments. And when certain individuals (both user and moderator) are on the giving and receiving ends, just need to take a step aside from the emotional irritation and get to the point to see if there was honest, personal harm intended. It will always seem like there's a reason to fight for, and argue a point, especially with emotions involved. With our daily lives and stresses, I'm sure the last thing all of you want to deal with is more frustration on the internet and LG.

I get mad/misunderstand/make mistakes everyday. For me, I just get tired of harping on everything, rather just try to learn from my personal sensitive points, and how I may act towards others, and look past what may have happened. I hope that provides some perspective, and not trying to end the topic, rather to get some discussion going.
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