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magic_bryant
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 Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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I think Hibbert has done a better job of making his presence felt than Oden, and I'm not a big Hibbert fan.
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ProjectAB
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | If Hibbert goes into top 5, that means Noah, Horford, Julian Wright, and Yi Jianlian didn't declare. |
Horford doesn't have the range to play PF, Noah is too soft, those two are role players at best. If that's some of the guys in your top 5, then I'm definitely picking Hilbert top 5(right after Julian Wright.) |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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| ProjectAB wrote: | | Well, I don't know what you're talking about Mike, because after that hook shot by Hilbert, seemed to me that Hilbert IS getting his position on Oden. |
It's not Hilbert.
That's just 1 spot. I'm talking about multiple instances down the floor. No way Oden should be sealing Hibbert that deep even for a missed layup. No way Oden should Oboard and power dunk with Hibbert right beside him. And the jumphook but Oden over Hibbert on the far bank?
That's convincing enough for NBA scouts.
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magic_bryant
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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Horford doesn't have range?
What!?
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ProjectAB
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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| magic_bryant wrote: | | I think Hibbert has done a better job of making his presence felt than Oden, and I'm not a big Hibbert fan. |
That jumper is a nice surprise. He is definitely showing me a lot more than I expected. |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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1:50 mark. Hibbert gets excellent position 4' away from the basket. Missed jumphook.
What does it matter anyway, there'll be a draftexpress writer summing all of this up anyway.
I'm glad I don't have to do it.
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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| magic_bryant wrote: | Horford doesn't have range?
What!? |
That's probably the 3rd 19' J he took all year.
Would you trust Bynum with that shot?
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ProjectAB
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | ProjectAB wrote: | | Well, I don't know what you're talking about Mike, because after that hook shot by Hilbert, seemed to me that Hilbert IS getting his position on Oden. |
It's not Hilbert.
That's just 1 spot. I'm talking about multiple instances down the floor. No way Oden should be sealing Hibbert that deep even for a missed layup. No way Oden should Oboard and power dunk with Hibbert right beside him. And the jumphook but Oden over Hibbert on the far bank?
That's convincing enough for NBA scouts. |
Oboard could mean guard penetration or being overpowered. And that hook shot doesn't mean anything as Oden has that capability, you act as if Hilbert was backed down by Oden and got dunked on or something. |
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magic_bryant
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | magic_bryant wrote: | Horford doesn't have range?
What!? |
That's probably the 3rd 19' J he took all year.
Would you trust Bynum with that shot? |
Check the name, Mike. I said Horford. Wasn't talking about Hibbert. ProjectAB mentioned your projected Top 5 and wrongly accused Horford of not having range on his J.
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Oboard could mean guard penetration or being overpowered. And that hook shot doesn't mean anything as Oden has that capability, you act as if Hilbert was backed down by Oden and got dunked on or something.
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OBoard off of a missed guard jumpshot and Hunter stole position on Hibbert.
For god sakes, spell the kids name right.
That hookshot meant that Oden can take on players bigger and stronger than him. That is his staple shot in his limited offensive game, just like Hibbert.
I never said Hibbert was backed down. I did say Oden got deep position and with Hibbert right on his back, Oden got the Oboard, was patient in the paint, and stuffed it.
That matters.
Oden's "layup" from 4 inches away from the basket on Hibbert? That matters too.
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ProjectAB
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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Here's Horford's scouting report:
Strengths: Runs extremely well, able to beat most forwards down the court … Is blessed with an NBA ready body and good strength … Defensively Horford is a very strong post defender able to use his body strength to disrupt opposing players from setting up … Solid shot blocker thanks to his timing and great anticipation skills … Attacks the basket with aggression and power … A surprising ball handler and passer for his size … This enables him to pass out of double teams with relative ease … Is physical in the low post and does a good job of drawling fouls from opposing defenders … Usually he is able to use his upper body strength and finish after contact … Really makes a big impact on the glass where he uses his body strength to box out … Has proven to be a very coachable player with a solid work ethic … Possesses a calm presence, doesn’t let his emotions get the best of him … Shows good court awareness, rarely does he try moves that are beyond his skill level … Has shown the ability to hit the 12-15 foot jumper from mid-range … Maintains good body control and balance absorbing contact well from opposing post defenders … Rarely bobbles or fails to catch passes thrown into the post thanks to his soft hands …
Weaknesses: Offensively, Horford lacks consistent shooting from mid-range and the perimeter … Defensively Horford tends to get into foul trouble at times due to his aggressiveness … Although his back to the basket skills are greatly improved, they are still in need of refinement … Post footwork can be choppy. By improving this, Horford will become a lot more effective post player … Has a tendency to defer to his teammates instead of establishing his presence in the game … Still hasn’t played with the consistency that you except with someone of his talent … Can drift at times during games. Will have one dominating game followed by several so-so performances …fails to get rebounds out of his position the way he should … Below average free throw shooting prevents him from taking full advantage of the foul shots he creates …
I don't consider 12-15 feet range, at least for a PF. For a center, it's nice, but for a PF, it's woefully inadequate. Brand succeeds because he can make them contested(in a sense, it's really the combination of how much separation and how far you can shoot them that determine range, that's why Dirk is such a dangerous offensive player, his range and level of separation is at optimal levels.) Horford has no such ability.
Last edited by ProjectAB on Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:08 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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| magic_bryant wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | magic_bryant wrote: | Horford doesn't have range?
What!? |
That's probably the 3rd 19' J he took all year.
Would you trust Bynum with that shot? |
Check the name, Mike. I said Horford. Wasn't talking about Hibbert. ProjectAB mentioned your projected Top 5 and wrongly accused Horford of not having range on his J. |
Oh, nevermind then. My bad. In that case, that's funny. I mean, it's not really consistent, but it's not non-existant either.
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Brand succeeds because he can make them contested. Horford has no such ability. |
Of course! Because Brand really came out of Duke with a midrange jumpshot!
http://www.ibiblio.org/craig/draft/1999_draft/Players/brand.html
Strengths: Hands, strength, surprising agility for size, ability to run the floor, power, shotblocking
Weaknesses: Questionable perimeter game and ballhandling, may be a tweener, potential weight problems, sometimes too passive, passing out of double teams
Almost sounds exactly like Horford, though, Brand is the far better athlete.
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magic_bryant
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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| ProjectAB wrote: | Here's Horford's scouting report:
Strengths: Runs extremely well, able to beat most forwards down the court … Is blessed with an NBA ready body and good strength … Defensively Horford is a very strong post defender able to use his body strength to disrupt opposing players from setting up … Solid shot blocker thanks to his timing and great anticipation skills … Attacks the basket with aggression and power … A surprising ball handler and passer for his size … This enables him to pass out of double teams with relative ease … Is physical in the low post and does a good job of drawling fouls from opposing defenders … Usually he is able to use his upper body strength and finish after contact … Really makes a big impact on the glass where he uses his body strength to box out … Has proven to be a very coachable player with a solid work ethic … Possesses a calm presence, doesn’t let his emotions get the best of him … Shows good court awareness, rarely does he try moves that are beyond his skill level … Has shown the ability to hit the 12-15 foot jumper from mid-range … Maintains good body control and balance absorbing contact well from opposing post defenders … Rarely bobbles or fails to catch passes thrown into the post thanks to his soft hands …
Weaknesses: Offensively, Horford lacks consistent shooting from mid-range and the perimeter … Defensively Horford tends to get into foul trouble at times due to his aggressiveness … Although his back to the basket skills are greatly improved, they are still in need of refinement … Post footwork can be choppy. By improving this, Horford will become a lot more effective post player … Has a tendency to defer to his teammates instead of establishing his presence in the game … Still hasn’t played with the consistency that you except with someone of his talent … Can drift at times during games. Will have one dominating game followed by several so-so performances …fails to get rebounds out of his position the way he should … Below average free throw shooting prevents him from taking full advantage of the foul shots he creates …
I don't consider 12-15 feet range, at least for a PF. For a center, it's nice, but for a PF, it's woefully inadequate. Brand succeeds because he can make them contested. Horford has no such ability. |
A PF only needs range to 15' when they play like a big and dominate the boards and inside.
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magic_bryant
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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Mike- You actually consider Brand a better athlete than Horford?
Gotta disagree.
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LakerSanity
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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Welcome to the NBA Mike Conley and Greg Oden.....they got to the championship game, I have no doubt they are declaring now.
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ProjectAB
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | Quote: | | Brand succeeds because he can make them contested. Horford has no such ability. |
Of course! Because Brand really came out of Duke with a midrange jumpshot!
http://www.ibiblio.org/craig/draft/1999_draft/Players/brand.html
Strengths: Hands, strength, surprising agility for size, ability to run the floor, power, shotblocking
Weaknesses: Questionable perimeter game and ballhandling, may be a tweener, potential weight problems, sometimes too passive, passing out of double teams
Almost sounds exactly like Horford, though, Brand is the far better athlete. |
Brand averaged 20 and 10 right off the bat. Either he improved that much over the summer he declared, or more likely, that scouting report is off, as those early scouting reports often are. |
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magic_bryant
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerSanity wrote: | | Welcome to the NBA Mike Conley and Greg Oden.....they got to the championship game, I have no doubt they are declaring now. |
We can hope.
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magic_bryant
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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Brand averaged 20-10 because he dominated inside as Horford likely will. Horford likely won't score 20 due to the uptempo game that has spread throughout the league, but he'll dominate inside.
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Stephon Marbury on Kobe: "He's the only person on 'dis earth that can do 'dat. He guards people, like shuts 'em down. Then, to do 'dat on 'da offensive end. It's like 'Damn, I can't score on him AND he about to bust my ass." |
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ProjectAB
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Horford is 6'9, 6'10, he won't dominate anyone at that size without a consistent jumper and/or a dribble drive. His bread and butter hook won't work nearly at the same level, against the likes of Duncan, KG, et al. |
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magic_bryant
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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With that strength and athleticism, he will dominate inside.
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21_Blessings
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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Despite Hibberts shooting %, he really didn't look that great. If he goes top 10 that has bust written all over it.
Oden looks NBA ready. But lets be honest here. No way this guy lives up to the Lebron-esque hype. Looks to be a poor man's David Robinson at best. |
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magic_bryant
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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Bigs win in the NBA. Greg Oden teams will be in the playoffs every year. They make the game easier for everyone around them.
Look past the numbers when evaluating a big. Oden won't have the numbers of a Bron, but his impact will be larger.
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21_Blessings
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| Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2007 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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| magic_bryant wrote: |
Look past the numbers when evaluating a big. Oden won't have the numbers of a Bron, but his impact will be larger. |
Who said anything about numbers.
He will be an impact player, but nowhere near the hype he is getting. |
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LakersMD
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| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 8:59 am Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | 1:50 mark. Hibbert gets excellent position 4' away from the basket. Missed jumphook.
What does it matter anyway, there'll be a draftexpress writer summing all of this up anyway.
I'm glad I don't have to do it. |
Yeah and draftexpress's summary isn't nearly as one-sided an argument as you have presented in the past 2 pages. Oden had just as much difficulty in this game as Hibbert did in their one-on-one matchups.
I remember Oden making an impressive jumphook and a quick dropstep move on Hibbert. I also remember Hibbert sealing Oden right in the middle of the paint for easy hookshots, and also blocking Oden's dunk attempt without even jumping.
Fact of the matter is if the refs hadn't blown that call on Oden on that dunk attempt, he would have been on the bench with 4 fouls and 6 minutes remaining, and wouldn't have had much of an effect on the game.
As good a tournament as Hibbert has had, I doubt he will go top 5. But I think his performance has clearly made him a top 10 pick if he chooses to come out. Last night's game cemented it. As for Oden, he is still the #1 overall pick. |
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