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angel
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Joined: 31 Jul 2004
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Location: city of angels
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 Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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| bballfan4life wrote: | i'll answer the question about the middle east countries adopting democracies: Heck No!  My only sympathy is for the troops and thier families and all the innocent iraqis who arent radicals or terrorists, just people trying to live thier daily lives without fear and bloodshed and fear... This was part of what the Americans were to deliver. Sadly, i cant say they have. This adminstration has always made the point of bieng one that doesnt waver and from what i see that is playing in the part in the downfall as well. It'll be intersting to see how history remebers them, b/c they have done somne good things which will probably be overshadowed by this HUGE mistep they decided to take in a region that's always been volatile.... The one recurring image i have is George Bush stepping of that aircraft with that infamous "Mission Accomplished" banner in the background.  Where's your swagger now dubya? |
There are plenty of innocents in Iraq, but why do you think suicide bombers are innocent? Are these suicide bombings not acts of terrorists?
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"Darkness cannot drive out darkness. Only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate. Only love can do that." ~~Martin Luther King Jr.~~ |
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ocho
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Joined: 24 May 2005
Posts: 53855
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| Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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| angel wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | angel- honest question. what do you feel we have accomplished there? and was it worth the amount of money spent and the amount of blood spilled? do you think that other middle east countries will adopt democracy as originally hoped by the US? do you think our post-war strategy was successful? do you think its a good idea to "stay until the job is done" even when you've been told by the baker comission and several decorated generals that the strategy simply is not working? |
I dislike dealing with Middle Eastern countries. Wars have been going on there a long time. There are no easy solutions, but a lot more has been accomplished than you think. Democratic concepts have been brought to the Middle East during the Gulf Wars. Kuwait is an oasis in the Middle East. Iraq has a chance to survive as a democracy if our exit isn't too hasty. There is no doubt we have to leave, but not by cutting and running. I don't know if all the recommendations made by the group headed by Baker should be done. You will find that not all of the generals agree. The general in charge of operations in Iraq has clearly stated there should not be a strict timetable. |
i think some things have been accomplished but very little. they showed up to vote which was nice. however it was not worth the money and lives lost. no way. if you're going to spend that much and have that many body bags there needs to be a damn good reason for it and there need to be some results to look at to justify it. i just don't see it.
"cutting and running"? no its called letting the people of iraq fight and die for their country instead of us fighting and dying for them. even though i don't think we ever should have, we went in there and took over the government. time to hand it over. keep some troops in northern iraq for a while but its time for the iraqi people to step up and take the reigns of their country.
good talk angel. it's always nice to have a political discussion not filled with insults and name calling. i think we showed the mods that it can be done. have a happy new year. 
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bballfan4life
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Joined: 17 Sep 2005
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Location: Sitting on top of the world... with my laptop!
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| Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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| angel wrote: | | bballfan4life wrote: | | i'll answer the question about the middle east countries adopting democracies: Heck No! My only sympathy is for the troops and thier families and all the innocent iraqis who arent radicals or terrorists, just people trying to live thier daily lives without fear and bloodshed and fear... This was part of what the Americans were to deliver. Sadly, i cant say they have. This adminstration has always made the point of bieng one that doesnt waver and from what i see that is playing in the part in the downfall as well. It'll be intersting to see how history remebers them, b/c they have done somne good things which will probably be overshadowed by this HUGE mistep they decided to take in a region that's always been volatile.... The one recurring image i have is George Bush stepping of that aircraft with that infamous "Mission Accomplished" banner in the background. Where's your swagger now dubya? |
There are plenty of innocents in Iraq, but why do you think suicide bombers are innocent? Are these suicide bombings not acts of terrorists? |
when did i say anything about sucide bombers or them not bieng terrorists 
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angel
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| Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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Tony Blair, who had been very popular in the UK is at extreme lows in popularity. In a recent interview, he said he understood it would be unpopular, but sometimes you have to do the unpopular thing, because it's the right thing to do. I'm glad the British are our allies. Dictators around the world have been put on notice, there are still brave men who don't look at the polls to determine what is right. 
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"Darkness cannot drive out darkness. Only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate. Only love can do that." ~~Martin Luther King Jr.~~ |
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bballfan4life
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| Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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Sure bieng popular isnt as important as bieng RIGHT although in this case, i have to say as much as i respect Mr. Blair, IMO they were not only unpopular but wrong as well... but we will ALL have to wait for history to determine that...
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"this game doesnt build character; it reveals it so be strong in body clear in mind and lofty in your ideals."
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Tony Montana
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Joined: 18 Apr 2005
Posts: 2962
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| Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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| angel wrote: | | bballfan4life wrote: | | i'll answer the question about the middle east countries adopting democracies: Heck No! My only sympathy is for the troops and thier families and all the innocent iraqis who arent radicals or terrorists, just people trying to live thier daily lives without fear and bloodshed and fear... This was part of what the Americans were to deliver. Sadly, i cant say they have. This adminstration has always made the point of bieng one that doesnt waver and from what i see that is playing in the part in the downfall as well. It'll be intersting to see how history remebers them, b/c they have done somne good things which will probably be overshadowed by this HUGE mistep they decided to take in a region that's always been volatile.... The one recurring image i have is George Bush stepping of that aircraft with that infamous "Mission Accomplished" banner in the background. Where's your swagger now dubya? |
There are plenty of innocents in Iraq, but why do you think suicide bombers are innocent? Are these suicide bombings not acts of terrorists? |
Sure, but let's not mistake domestic, internal terrorism from International Terrorism, or terrorism that puts our "homeland" at risk. There are Suicide Bombers in Spain, but we're not deeming them a mortal risk to us, now are we? Of course not, because like in Iraq, they have a domestic agenda; stick our soldiers in many parts of the world, and suddenly the bombings and snipers we rarely hear about would start targeting them, and we would have new rhetoric regarding the spread of terrorism. The fact is, there was not a terrorist threat from Iraq, state sponsored, or otherwise when we dove in, making it our number one priority apparently, even over capturing Osama (Bush said as much when he said he doesn't really think of him that much anymore). We are fighting there so we don't have to fight here. That is just pure administration fiction. The fact is, Saddam was pinned down. He wasn't going anywhere; he was really just trying to keep in power. Most of his rhetoric was more of a ruse to keep us at bay, and to keep his internal enemies off balance. What was he going to do, invade Kuwait again? That didn't work. Iran? Yea, been there, done that; didn't work out so well. Saudi Arabia? Hey, considering THAT'S WHERE MOST OF THE 9/11 HIJACKERS AND THE MONEY THEY USED CAME FROM, let him; watch them go at it for awhile, and weaken each other. The Saudi's are worse than him, in my mind anyways, with the Islamic schools breeding true International Terrorists there.
The whole 9/11-Iraq thing is nutty anyways. Ideologically, he and Osama were at opposite ends, and not in league with one another. Osama would love to have toppled Saddam and seen him replaced with a Caliphate, ridding himself of a more-or-less secular leadership (abeit a dictatorship) in the region. The whole 9/11-Iraq suggested connection is one of the greatest lies perpertrated upon the American people by their leaders.
I don't fear insurgents in Iraq other than for the safety of the soldiers there. I did not fear Saddam while he was still in power. I hoped he would be tossed from within, as I hated his human rights violations, but I did not, and do not feel those violations were a threat to our own security. Unless we are going to go marching into Darfur, or Rawanda, we have no business marching into Iraq, either.
Let's not even get into the folly of trying to create a democratic republic where the will to have one does not exists, due to the extreme mutual hatred of three large ethnic and religous groups, in a country that was an artificial construct in the first place, and never a very stable, happy one. Democracy and stability there was doomed from the start. They will need to work out out themselves. It will be bloody and ugly; they will either get tired of it; the moderates will win out on all sides; or the country will split in three, which is probably what should have happened in the first place... |
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DancingBarry
Editor-in-Chief
Joined: 07 Sep 2001
Posts: 40207
Location: O.C.
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| Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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Get your last words in on everyone's favorite tyrant.
This thread will self destruct in a few minutes. |
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DancingBarry
Editor-in-Chief
Joined: 07 Sep 2001
Posts: 40207
Location: O.C.
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| Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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Due to content of a political nature, this thread will now be terminated.
Bubbye, Saddam. You (bleep)ing sucked. |
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Phil
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Joined: 03 Aug 2001
Posts: 10007
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| Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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Finally the thread and the dead tyrant are truely  |
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