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Mike@LG
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 Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:19 am Post subject: |
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Two things:
I got really frustrated with the lack of triangle flow in the 2nd and 3rd quarters which really gave up the lead. Bad shot selection and turnovers led to easy opportunities for the Sonics.
Parker, Evans, Bryant, and Odom were all part of that dying ball movement. Too much dribbling.
... and that's why I want Ronny to start at PF. Position defense isn't everything. You want a guy who can swat AND get position. He gave 2 clear reasons at the end of the game.
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RYZ
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:37 am Post subject: |
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| Rick12322 wrote: | | The Lakers have been on record saying they were going to try to play some small ball. Phil playing Radman and Cook at C is part of that experiment. |
The problem is, playing 'small ball' implies shorter, quicker, more agile players, not slightly undersized, unathletic, plodders ie. Cook. It's one thing to trade size and girth for quicks; it's another thing altogether when your smaller player (Cook) is twice as slow as your bigger players (Turiaf & Bynum).
Thanks DB, I'm glad you emphasized that 7½ minute stretch to close out the first half. It was, as Rick12322 mentioned, vintage Phil. And as much as I've been watching him do this for going on seven years now, I still have my moments every game where he makes me pull my hair out. Such is the difference between a 'forest for the trees' fellow like Phil, and a 'live and die with every possession' fan like me. I (and lots of others)could have told you how that experiment was going to turn out, Phil. Next time, just ask.  |
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Hydro21
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 9:26 am Post subject: |
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| bynum has to demand more.. they didnt give him the rock enough in the 2nd half. and when they did they gave horrible eerty passes. IE: tht evens pass in the 3rd awful.. even bynuum had to argue you about that one.. |
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 9:26 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The scoring was fine, the execution was sloppy which had some ramifications defensively. We ignored the post way too much and had far too many turnovers that had us scrambling. If we ran the offense with a little more poise and purpose, we might have cut down on some of that. |
That was definitely an annoying 28 minutes in the middle of the game.
| Quote: | | ou have got to leave one of Ronny or Bynum in the game when we are getting torched by dribble penetration. Cook and Vlad as the bigs for one stretch? No. Certainly Phil will have more options when the lineup gets healthy, and he's still probably trying to get in a rhythm of his own from the bench. So, we may be prone to a little of that. |
Definitely not a fan of the shooters lineup.
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golakersgo121
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Joined: 21 Sep 2006
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 9:58 am Post subject: |
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| DancingBarry wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: |
Bynum + Turiaf played 39 minutes at Center combined. They cobined for 22 points, 13 boards, 6 blocks on 5-5 FG's. Yes 5 FG's for them resulted in 22 points and all of that in LESS than 48 minutes.
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Exactly. Feed the post. 22 points on 5-5 shooting...those guys should get a few more touches...the other part of that stat is the minutes without either player at C. ARggggh. Bring in Ronny a hair sooner for Bynum and also don't have Cook manning the C spot against a team that is getting so much dribble penetration. Check out Pop's Game Flow for the nice -10 we had in a matter of minutes with the Cook/Radmanovic bigman lineup.  |
That's what they I call a "negative effect" of hitting early perimeter shots (well, for my Lakers, anyway, Suns do not count). As a result young team stops executing and falls in love with the perimeter
BTW, interestingly enough, this stupid lineup with Cookie, Radman as bigs might work sometimes as well. Not against Seattle where Walton is smart enough to recognize the word "penetration" though. |
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Exick
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:04 am Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | Quote: | | ou have got to leave one of Ronny or Bynum in the game when we are getting torched by dribble penetration. Cook and Vlad as the bigs for one stretch? No. Certainly Phil will have more options when the lineup gets healthy, and he's still probably trying to get in a rhythm of his own from the bench. So, we may be prone to a little of that. |
Definitely not a fan of the shooters lineup. |
It may have actually worked ok if they had bothered going to the shooters on the offensive end, but Vlad and Cook were pretty quiet.
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golakersgo121
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:07 am Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | Two things:
I got really frustrated with the lack of triangle flow in the 2nd and 3rd quarters which really gave up the lead. Bad shot selection and turnovers led to easy opportunities for the Sonics.
Parker, Evans, Bryant, and Odom were all part of that dying ball movement. Too much dribbling.
... and that's why I want Ronny to start at PF. Position defense isn't everything. You want a guy who can swat AND get position. He gave 2 clear reasons at the end of the game. |
Makes two of us. He is your typical PF for triangle. I must see the combination of Kwame/Ronny guarding TD/Elison, KG/whoever and Rasheed/whoever combination first. Clearly (well, to me, anyway), Drew will be able to give us a lift in spurts of the bench but real postup guys will still give him fists... |
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jsi106
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:10 am Post subject: |
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| why didnt phil played sasha? he might put up a better defense against penetration |
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And 1
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:21 am Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: |
I have two complaints from this game
1) They do not give Bynum or Turiaf the ball enough. FIVE FG attempts? That is just not playing to your strengths enough. |
After the first quarter the Sonics did a really nice job of defending the paint. More specifically, they realized that Bynum was too much for Sene and replaced him with Danny Fortson. Fortson is incredibly strong and simply would not allow anyone to post up in the middle. As Fortson only seemed to play when Bynum was in, I was surprised that Turiaf didn't get more time last night as he would have been a good match-up with both Sene and Wilcox.
| Quote: | | 2) The defense without Bynum or Turiaf inside was abysmal and they need to be very careful with these Cook at Center lineups. This works agaisnt teams like the Suns who have Center's like Diaw who are basically forwards but with a team like Seattle who has a guy like Wilcox - you are asking for some abuse. |
I don't know if Phil Jax quite knows what he has with Turiaf. I think he ought to be starting and was disappointed in the limited minutes he played last night. I think Jax still looks at him as only being a "spark" off the bench and not someone who can, at the very least, rebound and play tough defense on a consistent basis.
| Quote: | | Other than that, I'm one happy dude. Lakers are 3-0 despite missing 2 starters from last season - one being Kobe for 2 games and he's still not 100%. Offense is pouring in despite the fact that Kobe's not a huge factor and that they have still not maxamized their bigs. Huge props have to go out to the play of Odom and Walton. Right now IMO they are showing ability on O that would make Pippen and Kukoc proud. |
Make that two. Despite shooting a very high percentage in the first half last night, I never got the impression that they were playing above their heads. The shots they were making should have been made. The best thing, however, was that there didn't appear to be any deferment to Kobe last night. They (in particular Odom) continued to play as if he wasn't there requiring Kobe to catch up with them. |
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hoopschick29
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:30 am Post subject: |
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| jsi106 wrote: | | why didnt phil played sasha? he might put up a better defense against penetration |
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And 1
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:31 am Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | <snipped>
Two things:
I got really frustrated with the lack of triangle flow in the 2nd and 3rd quarters which really gave up the lead. Bad shot selection and turnovers led to easy opportunities for the Sonics. |
I think that you're going to have to give the Sonics some credit on this.
After it appeared clear that Sene wasn't going to be able to handle Bynum, the Sonics turned to Danny Fortson for some toughness in the paint. Dude is strong as an ox and he simply refused to let Bynum set up shop. I also noticed that his physical style of play wasn't appreciated.
I also noted that Lamar wasn't able to work down low as much as he wanted either. In the 3rd quarter, I noticed that the Lakers looked to LO in the post on 3 straight possessions but were unable to get the ball to him because he was being fronted by Lewis. His (Lewis') length and athletic ability made it very difficult to attempt the lob to Odom. |
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SGSD32
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:49 am Post subject: |
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Phil's obviously still playing with lineups and rotations, and that will continue as they mix first Kwame, then Mihm back into the flow.
DB I love the "man law" line about starting the next game, but I have to disagree. That would entail bumping Luke or Bynum out of the lineup, and I don't think that's a good idea. I do agree with getting Ronny more burn, he's certainly earned it, and is a joy to watch.
I love this team, deep, athletic, versitile... watch out league. |
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sonofabuss
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 11:41 am Post subject: |
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| Thx, DB! I saw the Farmar, Kobe, Evans, Radmanovic, Cook lineup as an experiment. Will be interesting to see if PJ tries Cook at C again since it got so ugly. |
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Trevacious
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 11:50 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | We are used to Kobe being a stats leader, but this team is more than Kobe alone. There are some positive signs in the stats from other Lakers |
From here on, I'm thinking Kobe will be just one of our Ace cards and no longer a lone Crutch. |
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Mr. EiGhTy-OnE
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 11:56 am Post subject: |
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why do Lamar and Smush always seem to fight about who is going to bring the ball up. if lamra is bringing it upcourt, smush asks for it and vice versa.
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 11:58 am Post subject: |
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| Exick wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | | Quote: | | ou have got to leave one of Ronny or Bynum in the game when we are getting torched by dribble penetration. Cook and Vlad as the bigs for one stretch? No. Certainly Phil will have more options when the lineup gets healthy, and he's still probably trying to get in a rhythm of his own from the bench. So, we may be prone to a little of that. |
Definitely not a fan of the shooters lineup. |
It may have actually worked ok if they had bothered going to the shooters on the offensive end, but Vlad and Cook were pretty quiet. |
It would've worked if the Lakers kept the ball movement going along with the spacing.
Once that died, great perimeter opportunities left with it.
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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| And 1 wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | <snipped>
Two things:
I got really frustrated with the lack of triangle flow in the 2nd and 3rd quarters which really gave up the lead. Bad shot selection and turnovers led to easy opportunities for the Sonics. |
I think that you're going to have to give the Sonics some credit on this.
After it appeared clear that Sene wasn't going to be able to handle Bynum, the Sonics turned to Danny Fortson for some toughness in the paint. Dude is strong as an ox and he simply refused to let Bynum set up shop. I also noticed that his physical style of play wasn't appreciated.
I also noted that Lamar wasn't able to work down low as much as he wanted either. In the 3rd quarter, I noticed that the Lakers looked to LO in the post on 3 straight possessions but were unable to get the ball to him because he was being fronted by Lewis. His (Lewis') length and athletic ability made it very difficult to attempt the lob to Odom. |
Yeah, it was frustrating to not see Bynum, Luke, and Odom not get as deep position.
Once that was gone, the spacing was out of the triangle.
Along with that, there was little passing into the post.
A series of broken sequences.
Then, some Lakers got caught overdribbling. Bryant, Odom, Parker, Evans. No more ball-reversal to repost on the weakside, which was what gave them huge success early in the 1st quarter. There were some trapezoids out there with players out of alignment. Players on the high post on the strongside when it should've been the low block. Players in the midpost on the weakside instead at the high post to create better spacing.
Ugly.
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I'm The Dan
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Turiaf -- -- Ronny played just 15:45 of action, a mistake by Phil. During that time, however, he dug in and flat out battled. He scored 13 points on 3-3 shooting and 7-8 FTs, grabbed 7 boards and blocked 3 shots...in just 15 minutes. He showed icewater in his veins on the offensive end with some clutch points and he imposed his will in the paint on the defensive end. The two blocks were the play of the game. Nothing like one of the most impressive defensive stands of the early season coming after both teams were racking up the points. Early on, Ronny fed Farmar from the post, cutting baseline, Farmar drew the D and kicked it back to Ronny who knocked down the wing 17-footer. Nice challenge of a dunk attempt to get a miss. He cut across the lane from the post and got a jumphook to bounce in. He got caught on heels off the pick and roll, instead of showing and recovering, he backed up and took guard contact, giving up the And-1. A rare post up, he backed his man down and earned FTs, he made both. Great swat in the middle of the lane to ignite the fastbreak for a Farmar score. Bad-angled pass across court and it resulted in a turnover. Impressive defensive board going up high in a crowd. He pulled down an offensive board off a Luke missed FT and reset the offense. Nice cut when Luke got the post feed and then fed him for FTs, he made both. After gobbling up another defensive board on one end of the court, he set up on the baseline for a kickout and swished a 16-footer with 4 minutes left. Another great contest of a Ray Allen drive to get a miss and Luke secured the board. Again, a superb crash of the defensive glass to take a board away from the Sonics who had went over LO's back, Ronny then drew a loose ball foul, he both made with 55.6 seconds left and the crowd chanting his name. Icewater. Then the Huuuuuuuuuuuge. Huuuuuuge. Huuuge defensive stand. Two rejections on one sequence defensively under the hoop. Turiaf destroyed Wilcox on a help D block at the rim with the first, just sent him crashing to the floor. Then Rashard grabbed the board at the front of the rim, elevated and Ronny rejected him point blank, tapping the ball to Smush as he fell. Another high board with 6.3 seconds left, he was fouled and made one FT to lead by six. Man Law: You block two consecutive shots in crunch time in front of the rim, you automatically get to start the next game. |
Would you start him at PF or C? I think it's a mistake to move Odom from PF to SF with how well he's playing right now. Do you give him Bynum's spot? He's been playing well and doing that to him now, especially with K. Brown coming back soon, may hurt his confidence more than we would know.
I think Turiaf is fine where he is. The spark off of the bench. Every team needs one. I think you try to give him more minutes than he's been getting. Split it up between the PF/C spot, like he has, but find ways to get him in more. |
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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I'm with Mike on the Tri execution in the 2nd and 3rd. This team needs a good offense to play a good defense. They were not seeking out the best mismatch in the post and at the same time playing a bit too "laissez-faire" for my taste. Yeah I hate complaining about a win, but the goal is to get better all season until April.
On Turiaf at PF - I see your point. It became evident why the two shotblocker/interioe defender model helps in the defensive side of things. When Bynum was showing, there was noone inside to really protect the paint. If you had a guy like Turiaf out there with him - that changes things inside. Unlike Kwame or Mihm, Turiaf is showing some real range on his jumpshot. He's also a more willing passer than those two. I'm a believer on Ronny ..... When needed to go really big - Ronny at PF with Lamar at SF and Bynum/Kwame at C is the way to go. Especially against teams like the Spurs. |
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ocho
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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i was lucky enough to be there last night.
kobe's shot selection was phenomenal last night. that's why you see him shooting a high percentage.
the play of kobe bryant last night was EXACTLY how he should have played. i admit i was a little nervous about him working back into the offense. especially with the recent success in the first 2 games. kobe was a facilitator, setting everyone up beautifully. he took shots when he had them...it wasnt the kobe of last year shooting over two defenders.
lamar odom is the key to the team getting to the next level. it's amazing to watch him during the rudy season and even the up and down last season. this guy is ready to ball. i was worried that odom may lose that aggressiveness when kobe got back, acquiescing to kobe and relying on him. NO WAY! odom in the post is such a handful for other teams and he must have spent a lot of time on his outside shot this offseason because he is simply DEADLY from downtown thru these first three games.
luke walton is the man. plain and simple. he scored a career high and nobody seemed to notice. it's because he doesn't play flashy but he has been consistent so far this season. just another one of our great weapons now.
ronny turiaf is solid as a rock. it's a thrill to watch this guy. the whistle blows for a timeout and ronny is already at halfcourt chest bumpin his teammates. he brings the D, the hustle, the scoring, the rebounding, the shot blocking. he's also learned to use his energy for him instead of against him and is staying out of foul trouble.
bynum had some nice minutes but not nearly enough touches as DB said. he looks good out there.
lights out is great and i'm glad they're keeping it. also got to meet jordan farmar after the game and he seems like a cool guy. great night at staples.
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Muad'Dib
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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| jsi106 wrote: | | why didnt phil played sasha? he might put up a better defense against penetration |
Post of the century.
DB--great stuff as usual. One thing that's killing me is waiting for them to recognize and take advantage of the mismatches they're getting on offense. Examples: Ridenour on Luke on the block, Allen on Bynum (2-3x last night!), Wilkins on Lamar at the rim, etc. Phil loves to create these mismatches with solid tri execution, but they've got to take better advantage of them.
Also, the transition D is still ragged (how many times last year did they get beat for dunks off of FTs?!?), they need to communicate better. Hopefully, that will come with time. |
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DancingBarry
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Rick12322 wrote: | The Lakers have been on record saying they were going to try to play some small ball. Phil playing Radman and Cook at C is part of that experiment. Phil is not the kind of coach who is going to try experiments like this half way, he gave them some run to show if they could adjust and they did not. Don't be surprised to see this experiment repeated at times during the next month or so.
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I don't have problems going small, and in fact we've done that a bit already. I'm not hot about a Vlad/Cook small lineup, much prefer Odom in there. But there are situations where you don't want to go small, yesterday seemed like an easy one to see in that regard with how we were getting attacked. All it would have meant was more minutes for Ronny...he can handle more than 15 minutes against this Sonics lineup. |
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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The point of small ball is speed. If you have bigs that can run the floor or have players with size that are fast - then there's no need to play small is there?
Odom at 4 gives the Lakers speed. Bynum or Turiaf (and hopefully when Kwame comes back) running the floor quickly gives the Lakers speed at 5. We know that Walton, Kobe and Parker/Farmar all are good at running up the court. It's not so much that the Lakers have to play small - what they have to do is have their players being able to run up the court a) look for a quick score or b) set up in the Triangle much faster than last season. Most teams play small ball so they can get more speed, ballhandling and shooting. Well the Lakers have players at PF-PG that can do that in their respective positions.
I think what the emphasis of this year's team is speed. We wouldn't have 5 bigs on the roster (Bynum, Kwame, Turiaf, Mihm, Cook) and two 6'10 forwards in Odom/Radmanovic if the objective was to go small. The objective IMO is to increase the speed of the offense - including the Triangle (in terms of setting it up). Another big factor is that they are posting up alot. Teams that play small ball don't post up as much as the Lakers do. Size is still the biggest advantage the Lakers have - only now the Lakers have size that actually can run the floor with triple threat skills. |
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DancingBarry
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm The Dan wrote: |
Would you start him at PF or C? I think it's a mistake to move Odom from PF to SF with how well he's playing right now. Do you give him Bynum's spot? He's been playing well and doing that to him now, especially with K. Brown coming back soon, may hurt his confidence more than we would know.
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Doesn't matter where he goes. He could take Smush's spot. Man Law! |
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DancingBarry
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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| ocho wrote: | odom in the post is such a handful for other teams and he must have spent a lot of time on his outside shot this offseason because he is simply DEADLY from downtown thru these first three games.
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Hodges tweaked his form at the end of last season and Lamar was shooting well then. You can see when he squares up and gets that forward push off on his shot...same kind of thing they want Farmar to do. |
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