SPL Game 7 LA vs. WAS (7/18/2006) [Bynum 10-10 FG, 25 points, 11 boards]
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lakers399
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:05 am    Post subject:

So Howard's problem can be blamed on the refs, but Bynum's problem is his own? Sorry Mike, you might as well just say, Howard has proven it, Bynum hasn't. In which case all arguments should cease, and the argument that Bynum needs to dominate the SPL is meaningless to begin with.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:09 am    Post subject:

Freakout wrote:
I just don't get the point of purposely trying to piss a large group of posters off on this board and then run to another board and talk about it like it's a big (bleep) joke. People need to grow the hell up.


What do you mean, Freakout? Whose doing that?
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:10 am    Post subject:

Awesome performance by Bynum!
Big ups to the kid!
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:13 am    Post subject:

LakerJam wrote:
Freakout wrote:
I just don't get the point of purposely trying to piss a large group of posters off on this board and then run to another board and talk about it like it's a big (bleep) joke. People need to grow the hell up.


What do you mean, Freakout? Whose doing that?


I believe he was saying Magic Bryant went to lets go Lakers to bash posters here.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:13 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
^He did for 1 year and averaged over 9rpg in HS. Stats don't mean anything in high school. Tracy Murray averaged over 40ppg in 1 year. DeJuan Wagner scored over 100 points in 1 game. Doesn't mean a thing.

Point? Bigman, long arm, inconsistent boxing out. Sub average rebounder.


Hey Mike, if you go to the game and you get a chance would you ask Rambis if they ever bother to stress boxing out with AB? Honestly I wonder if they are so consumed with Triangle 101 that they aren't even concerned about it at this point?
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:21 am    Post subject:

I think Bynum is one of those guys who puts a smile on the face of Laker management (the cat that stole the canary).

They've seen Bynum up close during workouts and practice. They know exactly how hard he works to improve his game. They know how much he's grown, and they have a good idea how much more he'll grow. They know more about Drew than anyone else. And they think that they've ripped off the rest of the league.

I can't wait to see this kid in action during the upcoming season.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:32 am    Post subject:

Quote:


Hey Mike, if you go to the game and you get a chance would you ask Rambis if they ever bother to stress boxing out with AB? Honestly I wonder if they are so consumed with Triangle 101 that they aren't even concerned about it at this point?


That's why I don't make huge expectations on the kid. Still has huge skills to learn as an individual player, outside of strength and conditioning, outside of the system.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:34 am    Post subject:

lakers399 wrote:
Well, it's possible that he was picked over a guy you liked and you don't want to be wrong about him.


I wish we could just throw "right" and "wrong" out the window along with a few other words like "hater." Mike's assessments tend to be like how Chick announced games. As much as Chick loved the Lakers and their players he wouldn't hesitate to berate a Laker over bad play. What we see in a game trumps our feelings for a player even though it is sometimes a hard pill to swallow.

Bynum has had a few bad games and a few good games. I am overall optimistic given the potential he has shown but Bynum needs to gain just as much in maturity as in strength and conditioning. I'm not sure if I am accurately portraying Bynum's immaturity but when he is tired, overworked (or hasn't had his sugar fix??) he seems to be unresponsive on the court, kind of like a typical teenager playing a video game who doesn't respond when repeatedly told it's time for dinner. I think he needs to watch a few "Rocky" movies and get "the eye of the tiger" mentality. Maybe then he will have the motivation necessary to get in the kind of NBA shape needed to "lift those knees" instead of shuffling down the court and to otherwise be combative the entire game, every game.


Last edited by Lakers#1Team on Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:38 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:35 am    Post subject:

lakers399 wrote:
So Howard's problem can be blamed on the refs, but Bynum's problem is his own? Sorry Mike, you might as well just say, Howard has proven it, Bynum hasn't. In which case all arguments should cease, and the argument that Bynum needs to dominate the SPL is meaningless to begin with.


31 fouls 7 games.

4.2 fouls per game in ~ 31 minutes of average playing time.

2 games of 6 fouls
1 game of 7 fouls.

My point? When it comes to amateur refs, using fouls as a meaningful stat is pointless.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:44 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Quote:


Hey Mike, if you go to the game and you get a chance would you ask Rambis if they ever bother to stress boxing out with AB? Honestly I wonder if they are so consumed with Triangle 101 that they aren't even concerned about it at this point?


That's why I don't make huge expectations on the kid. Still has huge skills to learn as an individual player, outside of strength and conditioning, outside of the system.


Okay.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:14 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
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Wrong. As I pointed it out, if he were playing in the Vegas summer league, he would be going against 6'8-7'0 guys, instead of a 7'2 guy, multiple times.

And I ask once again, did Howard or Amare ever get double team like Bynum did? People keep coming up with stuff that detracts Bynum's performance, yet can't even refute this one simple point.


When it comes to boxing out, height doesn't matter too much.

And yes, Howard and Stoudemire got doubled.

Giving up 11 rebounds to Glyniadakis?
10/12 respecfively to McCoy and DeAngelo Collins?
12/10 rebounds to Lawrence Roberts and Glyniadakis?

Real rebounders limit possessions to the opponent. Bynum did well against Ramos, Blatche, etc., but this is sub-par NBA talent grabbing a hihg amount of rebounds.

3x the Lakers outrebounded the opponent.
2x the Lakers were nearly even
2x the Lakers were outrebounded significantly

I don't know. For a bigman with above average athleticism who we all want to kill on the backboard, lack of consistency at the SPL level doesn't look well.


EXACTLY!
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:23 pm    Post subject:

I didn't purposely piss anyone off. I simply stated my opinion, and as is the case EVERY time, the homers didn't like that I would DARE say Bynum would be just a 15/10/2 guy. They got all up in arms at the mere thought of Bynum only being a very good starting C. When I made point of that, they acted as if I was calling him a bum.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:27 pm    Post subject:

magic_bryant wrote:
I didn't purposely piss anyone off. I simply stated my opinion, and as is the case EVERY time, the homers didn't like that I would DARE say Bynum would be just a 15/10/2 guy. They got all up in arms at the mere thought of Bynum only being a very good starting C. When I made point of that, they acted as if I was calling him a bum.

Call me a homer all you want, but I think DB's still waiting for your response on the Phil quote.

Also, there's a certain amount of flip flopping going on with your posts in this thread alone. DB exposed that too.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:35 pm    Post subject:

magic_bryant wrote:
I didn't purposely piss anyone off. I simply stated my opinion, and as is the case EVERY time, the homers didn't like that I would DARE say Bynum would be just a 15/10/2 guy. They got all up in arms at the mere thought of Bynum only being a very good starting C. When I made point of that, they acted as if I was calling him a bum.


People only took offense when you said there is no chance that he could be anything other than a 15/10/2 guy, because by that statement you are saying that you already know how an 18 year old kid will turn out. Of course your entitled to your opinion but people are entitled to disagree with you as well. Its fine that you think that he doesn't have any more upside than that, thats your opinion but trying to justify that with facts or number from the summer league doesn't prove that your right. Just like other people using those numbers doesn't prove he'll be a star. Bynum is not howard, amare, shaq, or anyone he's Bynum. Every player is different and they all take different roads to get where they are. There are so many factors to consider when gauging how someone will turn out that it is impossible to know how a player will turn out, otherwise the drafts would never be wrong. The only thing we do know about bynum is he's improved from last year, he's working with kareem, and he's working hard. What that will translate into is a guess, and everyone is entitled to their own guess.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:36 pm    Post subject:

Guys, let's show each other some respect. Getting back to Bynum, I think tonight's game will be important as far as validating our optimism or decreasing our pessimism. Tonight, Bynum will be playing the 2nd of a back-to-back against a team that thoroughly frustrated him the last time out. Some, like me, have given Bynum a pass for his performances during games 4 and 6 due to the number of games played in such a short amount of time. However, I'm going to be more critical of Bynum if he has a sub-par game tonight because he had 2 days to rest before yesterday's game. I expect him to have a solid game - no excuses this time.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:38 pm    Post subject:

baller wrote:
magic_bryant wrote:
I didn't purposely piss anyone off. I simply stated my opinion, and as is the case EVERY time, the homers didn't like that I would DARE say Bynum would be just a 15/10/2 guy. They got all up in arms at the mere thought of Bynum only being a very good starting C. When I made point of that, they acted as if I was calling him a bum.


People only took offense when you said there is no chance that he could be anything other than a 15/10/2 guy, because by that statement you are saying that you already know how an 18 year old kid will turn out. Of course your entitled to your opinion but people are entitled to disagree with you as well. Its fine that you think that he doesn't have any more upside than that, thats your opinion but trying to justify that with facts or number from the summer league doesn't prove that your right. Just like other people using those numbers doesn't prove he'll be a star. Bynum is not howard, amare, shaq, or anyone he's Bynum. Every player is different and they all take different roads to get where they are. There are so many factors to consider when gauging how someone will turn out that it is impossible to know how a player will turn out, otherwise the drafts would never be wrong. The only thing we do know about bynum is he's improved from last year, he's working with kareem, and he's working hard. What that will translate into is a guess, and everyone is entitled to their own guess.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:43 pm    Post subject:

baller wrote:
magic_bryant wrote:
I didn't purposely piss anyone off. I simply stated my opinion, and as is the case EVERY time, the homers didn't like that I would DARE say Bynum would be just a 15/10/2 guy. They got all up in arms at the mere thought of Bynum only being a very good starting C. When I made point of that, they acted as if I was calling him a bum.


People only took offense when you said there is no chance that he could be anything other than a 15/10/2 guy, because by that statement you are saying that you already know how an 18 year old kid will turn out. Of course your entitled to your opinion but people are entitled to disagree with you as well. Its fine that you think that he doesn't have any more upside than that, thats your opinion but trying to justify that with facts or number from the summer league doesn't prove that your right. Just like other people using those numbers doesn't prove he'll be a star. Bynum is not howard, amare, shaq, or anyone he's Bynum. Every player is different and they all take different roads to get where they are. There are so many factors to consider when gauging how someone will turn out that it is impossible to know how a player will turn out, otherwise the drafts would never be wrong. The only thing we do know about bynum is he's improved from last year, he's working with kareem, and he's working hard. What that will translate into is a guess, and everyone is entitled to their own guess.


I wasn't just basing it on STATS. I hate to use stats as a means to justify a player's abilities. I just knew that Bynum hasn't played anywhere near as well as Howard did in terms of boxing-out, defensive positioning, etc. I assumed the stats would show that.

And hell, I wasn't even the one that was comparing Bynum to other greats. I was simply talking about his consistency in the things he does. He doesn't box-out consistently. He doesn't rotate consistently. He doesn't fight for position consistently.

wolf- I stopped looking for the quote, because bambam PMed me and told me that the qoute came from Phil on Lakers' Live, regarding Bynum getting minutes. Hell, you and I discussed this just after the ASB. Phil said something along the lines of, "Bynum is more focused on his offense than he is the defensive side of things. He only wants to score right now. He needs to readjust his focus." That's not a direct quote or anything, and I never said it was. Just the basic gist of his words. The "investing his ego in his offense" was MY choice of words.

I haven't flip-flopped. I stand by my assertion. Bynum CAN become an all-star. Sure. If everything falls into place. If he A) works his ass off to a Kobe-like level, B) the Lakers FO allows him to stay off-the-court for the necessary 3 years that it'll take for him to develop his finesse game - they're already trying to push him out there for 10-12 MPG, and C) he never gets injured, losing some of the athleticism.

Considering all those things, I just find it very hard to believe that Bynum reaches his absolute ceiling which is that of an All-Star. Too many hurdles to overcome.

So, do I think he CAN become an All-Star. Hell yeah. But again, he's behind the curve and has A TON of hurdles to overcome, and I just think the hurdles will be too much. Chandler was a better help defender and rebounder out of high school. Curry was stronger and had a better repertoire of moves out of the post. So, Bynum is behind both, but has a better work ethic.

To me, what that means is Bynum will eventually be better than those two, but not significantly better. Just more well rounded.
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Last edited by magic_bryant on Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:54 pm    Post subject:

Mike keep up the good work. You call it like it is instead of calling it how you wish it was. Those with the over the top, unfair assessments just can't seem to deal with either having to wait, or the possibility of being dissapointed.

With great showings in the spl by jordan farmar, you wonder why he doesn't get the undying "a lock to be the next superstar" love. I personally think its only because bynum is a center and there is still a void in the homers hearts left by a certain big fella.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:57 pm    Post subject:

da ocho wrote:
Mike keep up the good work. You call it like it is instead of calling it how you wish it was. Those with the over the top, unfair assessments just can't seem to deal with either having to wait, or the possibility of being dissapointed.

With great showings in the spl by jordan farmar, you wonder why he doesn't get the undying "a lock to be the next superstar" love. I personally think its only because bynum is a center and there is still a void in the homers hearts left by a certain big fella.


I agree with that.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:34 pm    Post subject:

RCS926 wrote:
Guys, let's show each other some respect. Getting back to Bynum, I think tonight's game will be important as far as validating our optimism or decreasing our pessimism. Tonight, Bynum will be playing the 2nd of a back-to-back against a team that thoroughly frustrated him the last time out. Some, like me, have given Bynum a pass for his performances during games 4 and 6 due to the number of games played in such a short amount of time. However, I'm going to be more critical of Bynum if he has a sub-par game tonight because he had 2 days to rest before yesterday's game. I expect him to have a solid game - no excuses this time.


That's fair. I don't expect him to be dominant because the conditioning isn't going to just magically materialize despite the 2 days rest, but there's no reason why he shouldn't at least be "solid".
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:13 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
Didn't Bynum get constant doubles and even triples against Memphis? I don't think many teams played Bynum straight up. I read DB saying that one of the reason's Bynum didn't score much in a game was because of all the defensive attention he got.

While It is just Summer league play, it's still noteworthy that you have a player who's drawing so much defensive attention.


In the most recent game? Yes. Did he get the same coverage the first two times against Memphis? No.

They watch gametape in the SPL and adjust defense accordingly.


The doubles, triples, etc. seemed to gradually increase with Memphis. What was steady, however, and a definite problem when it comes to Bynum getting post touches is that every game against Memphis this SPL he was being partially fronted by their bigman (usually with a slight weakside zone help). This severely limited post touches as we didn't know how to counter that in the Tri. I've harped on that extensively and Rambis mentioned it, as well.

In the first Memphis game, Bynum got his points by outrunning everyone on the break. He seems have slowed a little since then, but his post touches against Memphis have been few and far between. I expect the same tonight. Something the stat sheet won't reflect, for sure.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:33 pm    Post subject:


crazy stats
nice job
very hye scoring game, they only played 6players?
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 3:32 pm    Post subject:

da ocho wrote:
Mike keep up the good work. You call it like it is instead of calling it how you wish it was. Those with the over the top, unfair assessments just can't seem to deal with either having to wait, or the possibility of being dissapointed.

With great showings in the spl by jordan farmar, you wonder why he doesn't get the undying "a lock to be the next superstar" love. I personally think its only because bynum is a center and there is still a void in the homers hearts left by a certain big fella.


Why is it "unfair" or "over the top" for fans to believe a player can be something special in this league? Who is it unfair to? Do you feel people are being unfair to you, if they believe that you can be special in your profession? Of course not. People typically respond well to the faith of others in them and judging from how hard Bynum has worked this off-season, he's clearly responding well to the faith the organization has placed in him. It's all good. There is absolutely nothing at all wrong with any of that. Especially when the Lakers say and act as though they're buying it, too. Why should fans ignore the take of the Lakers just because other fans think they're wrong? Everyone is entitled to his or her opinion and it isn't any more nuts to claim with certainty that he'll be an "all-star" than it is to claim you know all he can ever be is "solid".

Ultimately, belief is the beauty of fanship - that people believe in their players and in their team. You don't have to agree with it, but it would be nice if you and MB stopped at least coming across as superior just because you don't believe it. None of us knows what this kid will be, and acting as though we do, doesn't make it fact. Barring injury, Bynum is the only one who will determine how good he can be. We're just along for the ride.


Last edited by LakerJam on Wed Jul 19, 2006 3:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 3:42 pm    Post subject:

LakerJam wrote:
da ocho wrote:
Mike keep up the good work. You call it like it is instead of calling it how you wish it was. Those with the over the top, unfair assessments just can't seem to deal with either having to wait, or the possibility of being dissapointed.

With great showings in the spl by jordan farmar, you wonder why he doesn't get the undying "a lock to be the next superstar" love. I personally think its only because bynum is a center and there is still a void in the homers hearts left by a certain big fella.


Why is it "unfair" or "over the top" for fans to believe a player can be something special in this league? Who is it unfair to? Do YOU feel people are being unfair to you, if they believe that you can be special? Of course not. People typically respond well to the faith of others in them and judging from how hard Bynum has worked this off-season, he's clearly responding well to the faith and belief the organization has placed in him. It's all good. There is absolutely nothing at all wrong with any of that. Especially when the Lakers say and act as though they believe it, too. Fans should ignore the take of the Lakers because you guys don't believe it?

Ultimately, belief is the beauty of fanship - that people believe in their players and in their team. You don't have to agree with it, but it would be nice if you and MB stopped at least coming across as superior just because you don't believe it.


Overall, there's nothing wrong with sticking to beliefs regarding your thoughts on Bynum's potential. However, the problem is that posters on both sides of the spectrum have basically been degrading other posters with opposing viewpoints. That's where all the tension is coming from. da ocho was specifically called out by another poster. magic has been stereotyping other posters who are more optimistic about Bynum than he is, and in turn, those same posters have been stereotyping him as well. At any rate, the heat has been turned up because posters have generally thrown aside sound analysis in favor of accusations and assumptions directed at those with opposing views. I think we can agree to disagree without offending one another.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 3:45 pm    Post subject:

da ocho wrote:
exactly baller,

it's not fair to judge him at this point. it's particularly offensive to me when people run around saying he's a lock as the next great laker center. that is comparing him to wilt chamberlain, kareem abdul jabbar, george mikan and shaquille o'neal. not fair to those legends and not fair to young andrew bynum.



This has nothing to do with fair and everything to do with being a fan. I mean you have every right to feel offended about anything you wish, but it seems to me to be a waste of a perfectly good negative emotion to be offended because Laker fans, on a Laker board, prefer to assume this kids untapped potential will be completely fufilled.
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