|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
magic_bryant
Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 18179
|
 Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| TheQuestForSeventeen wrote: | | magic_bryant wrote: | | lakers399 wrote: | Kobe's a guard, he's supposed to be able to score. His average was 23, 6 and 2, which is kind of so-so.
Anyway, if you want a better perspective, then compare him to Howard and Amare. Bynum's average so far is 15, 8 and 2. Howard's first summer league was 13, 10, and 3(but only 35% shooting.) Amare was 14 and 6 AND he's a year older, so you see, Bynum already compares very favorably with those two.
No one averages 20 and 10 in the summer league. If a guy did that, he'd be an immediate superstar. |
And Amare and Howard had the raw, natural athleticism to build upon there games. Bynum's bigger than everyone in the SPL. He should at least be CONSISTENT in SPL.
Look at any good player, he can and will be consistently good at the SPL level. Bynum isn't. He's great one minute, horrible the next. That has to be a concern if you're one of the homers who feels Bynum is going to be an All-Star.
And one other thing regarding Brad Miller: Yeah. Sure, he wasn't dominating anyone at 18. But you know what? That's why he went to college and developed his game more. |
But you said that if he were to become an all-star, he would be consistent in the SPL, whereas Stoudemire and Howard's performances are evidence that that is not the case.
I'm not sure exactly what your point is regarding Brad Miller going to college to work on his game. Who's to say that he wouldn't have become an all star had he started in the NBA at age 18. Kobe Bryant, Kevin Garnett, Moses Malone, Jermaine O'Neal, Amare Stoudemire, Dwight Howard, etc. are all evidence that college is not a necessity when it comes to developing your game to an all star level. I'm not sure where you're going with that one. |
Those stats for Amare and Howard were in their FIRST SPL. Why compare that to Bynum's SECOND? That's ridiculous. Bynum is a 1 year pro. He should be far more consistent in SPL.
_________________
Stephon Marbury on Kobe: "He's the only person on 'dis earth that can do 'dat. He guards people, like shuts 'em down. Then, to do 'dat on 'da offensive end. It's like 'Damn, I can't score on him AND he about to bust my ass." |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
magic_bryant
Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 18179
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| lakers399 wrote: | | magic_bryant wrote: | | sean2023 wrote: | | LeBron James wasn't consistent at 18 during the summer league. He'd go off for 25 one night...and then go 2-14 the next. In the end I think he averaged around 15 per. Obviously Bynum is no James in the sense we all saw enough of James in HS to get a feel for what he could do out there...but even then, he wasn't consistent in summer league...and it hardly mattered in the grand scheme of things. |
And that was LeBron's FIRST SPL. Not his second, where he knew what to expect and had a year of playing with "the big boys". |
Lebron was also a full year older. Let's see how much deeper you want to dig yourself into. |
And everyone knew LeBron was better than he showed at his FIRST SPL. Those were jitters. Nothing more. It was expected. Bynum has been to the SPL before. No reason to have "jitters" that cause inconsistency now.
_________________
Stephon Marbury on Kobe: "He's the only person on 'dis earth that can do 'dat. He guards people, like shuts 'em down. Then, to do 'dat on 'da offensive end. It's like 'Damn, I can't score on him AND he about to bust my ass." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
10scott10
Star Player
Joined: 17 May 2006
Posts: 7428
Location: Making the games you play
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| magic_bryant wrote: | | sean2023 wrote: | | LeBron James wasn't consistent at 18 during the summer league. He'd go off for 25 one night...and then go 2-14 the next. In the end I think he averaged around 15 per. Obviously Bynum is no James in the sense we all saw enough of James in HS to get a feel for what he could do out there...but even then, he wasn't consistent in summer league...and it hardly mattered in the grand scheme of things. |
And that was LeBron's FIRST SPL. Not his second, where he knew what to expect and had a year of playing with "the big boys". |
bynum is also still 18 years old. his birthday is in october. so he is as old as lebron was during the SPL. also the SPL is dominated by guards and forwards. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
magic_bryant
Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 18179
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Bynum has been playing against PROs for a full year, be it in game or practice. To compare his SECOND SPL to LBJ, Howard, or Amare's FIRST SPL is ridiculous.
_________________
Stephon Marbury on Kobe: "He's the only person on 'dis earth that can do 'dat. He guards people, like shuts 'em down. Then, to do 'dat on 'da offensive end. It's like 'Damn, I can't score on him AND he about to bust my ass." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Rick12322
Franchise Player
Joined: 27 Jun 2005
Posts: 19164
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| magic_bryant wrote: | | TheQuestForSeventeen wrote: | | magic_bryant wrote: | | RCS926 wrote: | | magic_bryant wrote: | | wolfpaclaker wrote: | Yeah, I want to see Da Ocho and other guys talk about how this performance isn't even "dominant" :roll:
Bynum is the real deal. He only needs some time. He has all the tools and will develop the skills because he works very hard and wants to be an All-Star. At 18, he has another 5 years of hard work ahead of him - but if he puts in he will be a remarkable player. |
Well then. Blatche must be KG after his 38 pt, 12 rebound effort the other day, huh?
Bynum is good. He'll be a starter in the league. He'll be lucky to see an all-star game. |
If Bynum can eventually put up a consistent 15/12/2 effort every night, that'll be more than enough. |
I agree. But the problem is that you have some homers here that think Bynum is a lock to be an All-Star, despite not being able to play well, much less dominate, the SPL consistantly. |
Your point is valid, but at this point in time I'm satisfied with just flashes of brilliance. I wouldn't expect an 18 year old to have the experience or mental savvy that it takes to be consistent, that will come with time, both in life and on the court. It is very possible that we have a legitimate starting center on our hands by age 20. That is impressive. I think sometimes we lose perspective of the age of the prospect that we're dealing with. |
If he's going to be an All-Star one day, he'd already be consistent in SPL. the fact that he's not is worrisome. |
That thinking is belied by the simple fact that the sum of Bynum's experience to date, including everything up until last season, is approximately one year of organized Basketball. To say he cannot be an all-star at this stage in his career is IMO pre-mature. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
DancingBarry
Editor-in-Chief
Joined: 07 Sep 2001
Posts: 40222
Location: O.C.
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| magic_bryant wrote: | | I said he'd just be CONSISTENT at SPL. He's not even consistently playing well. |
That would be pretty difficult to do for a lot of post players with the way we run our offense in the SPL. Some games he just gets a couple post touches. When he has gotten consistent post touches, he has been able to produce in all the games I've seen this summer. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bambam
Star Player
Joined: 03 Jul 2003
Posts: 9013
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| wolfpaclaker wrote: | Yeah, I want to see Da Ocho and other guys talk about how this performance isn't even "dominant" :roll:
Bynum is the real deal. He only needs some time. He has all the tools and will develop the skills because he works very hard and wants to be an All-Star. At 18, he has another 5 years of hard work ahead of him - but if he puts in he will be a remarkable player. |
where were you the last few games when hes been playing poorly? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
lakers399
Starting Rotation
Joined: 12 Jul 2006
Posts: 214
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
But then you could easily argue that Howard and Amare had an extra year of high school play. It's amazing really, Bynum was too raw because he didn't have enough high school play, and now he's being penalized again, because well, he didn't have enough high school play.
Your arguments are just incredibly weak. Look, Bynum put up better stats than Amare, despite being one year younger, and better than Howard's, at the same age. That's all that counts.
For the record, Howard's 2nd year SPL was 19, 7.5 and 1.5, that's not necessarily better than 15, 8 and 2. And he was still a year older than Bynum at the time.
Last edited by lakers399 on Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:15 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
magic_bryant
Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 18179
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| DancingBarry wrote: | | magic_bryant wrote: | | I said he'd just be CONSISTENT at SPL. He's not even consistently playing well. |
That would be pretty difficult to do for a lot of post players with the way we run our offense in the SPL. Some games he just gets a couple post touches. When he has gotten consistent post touches, he has been able to produce in all the games I've seen this summer. |
What about his defense? Rebounding?
He's beginning to reach that point where he invests his ego into his scoring solely.
I mean, is it really too much to ask for 10 rebounds consistently from a guy as big and agile as he is, playing against the level of competition that he is?
_________________
Stephon Marbury on Kobe: "He's the only person on 'dis earth that can do 'dat. He guards people, like shuts 'em down. Then, to do 'dat on 'da offensive end. It's like 'Damn, I can't score on him AND he about to bust my ass." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
DancingBarry
Editor-in-Chief
Joined: 07 Sep 2001
Posts: 40222
Location: O.C.
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| RCS926 wrote: | | RocknRoll wrote: | | Any word on Farmar? Were most of his assists to Bynum? |
16 and 11. We'll have to wait for the rest of the LGers to get back home to get a better picture of how everyone played. |
I didn't go to this one  so don't wait up for any Thoughts and Ratings tonight. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KevDog
Starting Rotation
Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 200
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| magic_bryant wrote: | | lakers399 wrote: | Kobe's a guard, he's supposed to be able to score. His average was 23, 6 and 2, which is kind of so-so.
Anyway, if you want a better perspective, then compare him to Howard and Amare. Bynum's average so far is 15, 8 and 2. Howard's first summer league was 13, 10, and 3(but only 35% shooting.) Amare was 14 and 6 AND he's a year older, so you see, Bynum already compares very favorably with those two.
No one averages 20 and 10 in the summer league. If a guy did that, he'd be an immediate superstar. |
And Amare and Howard had the raw, natural athleticism to build upon there games. Bynum's bigger than everyone in the SPL. He should at least be CONSISTENT in SPL.
Look at any good player, he can and will be consistently good at the SPL level. Bynum isn't. He's great one minute, horrible the next. That has to be a concern if you're one of the homers who feels Bynum is going to be an All-Star.
And one other thing regarding Brad Miller: Yeah. Sure, he wasn't dominating anyone at 18. But you know what? That's why he went to college and developed his game more. |
Don't really see the point in being a fan if you're not going to be a "Homer" and I also don't really see the point of calling fans "Homers." Seems that should be a given. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
GoldenThroat
Moderator
Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 37474
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| magic_bryant wrote: | | TheQuestForSeventeen wrote: | | magic_bryant wrote: | | lakers399 wrote: | Kobe's a guard, he's supposed to be able to score. His average was 23, 6 and 2, which is kind of so-so.
Anyway, if you want a better perspective, then compare him to Howard and Amare. Bynum's average so far is 15, 8 and 2. Howard's first summer league was 13, 10, and 3(but only 35% shooting.) Amare was 14 and 6 AND he's a year older, so you see, Bynum already compares very favorably with those two.
No one averages 20 and 10 in the summer league. If a guy did that, he'd be an immediate superstar. |
And Amare and Howard had the raw, natural athleticism to build upon there games. Bynum's bigger than everyone in the SPL. He should at least be CONSISTENT in SPL.
Look at any good player, he can and will be consistently good at the SPL level. Bynum isn't. He's great one minute, horrible the next. That has to be a concern if you're one of the homers who feels Bynum is going to be an All-Star.
And one other thing regarding Brad Miller: Yeah. Sure, he wasn't dominating anyone at 18. But you know what? That's why he went to college and developed his game more. |
But you said that if he were to become an all-star, he would be consistent in the SPL, whereas Stoudemire and Howard's performances are evidence that that is not the case.
I'm not sure exactly what your point is regarding Brad Miller going to college to work on his game. Who's to say that he wouldn't have become an all star had he started in the NBA at age 18. Kobe Bryant, Kevin Garnett, Moses Malone, Jermaine O'Neal, Amare Stoudemire, Dwight Howard, etc. are all evidence that college is not a necessity when it comes to developing your game to an all star level. I'm not sure where you're going with that one. |
Those stats for Amare and Howard were in their FIRST SPL. Why compare that to Bynum's SECOND? That's ridiculous. Bynum is a 1 year pro. He should be far more consistent in SPL. |
Amare and Howard are both on the top end of elite big men in the league. One can be an all-star caliber player without reaching their level of talent. However, you said that a future all star would perform consistently at the SPL, with no contingency based upon their experience in the league. Howard and Stoudemire are evidence that this is not the case.
Amare and Howard were both older in their first SPL than Bynum is in his second, if I remember correctly. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
DancingBarry
Editor-in-Chief
Joined: 07 Sep 2001
Posts: 40222
Location: O.C.
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| magic_bryant wrote: | | DancingBarry wrote: | | magic_bryant wrote: | | I said he'd just be CONSISTENT at SPL. He's not even consistently playing well. |
That would be pretty difficult to do for a lot of post players with the way we run our offense in the SPL. Some games he just gets a couple post touches. When he has gotten consistent post touches, he has been able to produce in all the games I've seen this summer. |
What about his defense? Rebounding?
He's beginning to reach that point where he invests his ego into his scoring solely.
I mean, is it really too much to ask for 10 rebounds consistently from a guy as big and agile as he is, playing against the level of competition that he is? |
That's an area he says he wants to improve on. I think a lot has to do with his motor and conditioning. Some of it fundamentals.
"He's beginning to reach that point where he invests his ego into his scoring solely." Where do you get this from??? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
magic_bryant
Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 18179
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I'm not penalizing him for a lack of experience in high school. I'm just being realistic. He's behind the curve. Tim Duncan and Hakeem are the only bigs to try and pick the game up at such a late age. And they were far more athletic and nimble at 18 than Bynum.
Bynum will be a quality, starting C. Perhaps Brendan Haywood with better offense. 15/11/2 at his peak.
All-Star? No.
_________________
Stephon Marbury on Kobe: "He's the only person on 'dis earth that can do 'dat. He guards people, like shuts 'em down. Then, to do 'dat on 'da offensive end. It's like 'Damn, I can't score on him AND he about to bust my ass." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KevDog
Starting Rotation
Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 200
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| magic_bryant wrote: | | I'm not worried about the stats. I'm worried about his CONSISTENCY in his SECOND SPL. Not his 1st. |
Well, he's still only 18 and growing into his body. He's shown considerable improvement in his game in all facets and has shwon the ability and willingness to develop several of the fundamental post moves that will allow him to score in the NBA. Bynum is an up and coming Tim Duncan and I feel sorry for the people, especially the so-called Laker fans, who don't see it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
magic_bryant
Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 18179
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| DancingBarry wrote: | | magic_bryant wrote: | | DancingBarry wrote: | | magic_bryant wrote: | | I said he'd just be CONSISTENT at SPL. He's not even consistently playing well. |
That would be pretty difficult to do for a lot of post players with the way we run our offense in the SPL. Some games he just gets a couple post touches. When he has gotten consistent post touches, he has been able to produce in all the games I've seen this summer. |
What about his defense? Rebounding?
He's beginning to reach that point where he invests his ego into his scoring solely.
I mean, is it really too much to ask for 10 rebounds consistently from a guy as big and agile as he is, playing against the level of competition that he is? |
That's an area he says he wants to improve on. I think a lot has to do with his motor and conditioning. Some of it fundamentals.
"He's beginning to reach that point where he invests his ego into his scoring solely." Where do you get this from??? |
Go watch last season. His careless play on D and rebounding are reasons why he didn't get more minutes from Phil. He was too focused on scoring.
Just as he is right now.
_________________
Stephon Marbury on Kobe: "He's the only person on 'dis earth that can do 'dat. He guards people, like shuts 'em down. Then, to do 'dat on 'da offensive end. It's like 'Damn, I can't score on him AND he about to bust my ass." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
10scott10
Star Player
Joined: 17 May 2006
Posts: 7428
Location: Making the games you play
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| magic_bryant wrote: | I'm not penalizing him for a lack of experience in high school. I'm just being realistic. He's behind the curve. Tim Duncan and Hakeem are the only bigs to try and pick the game up at such a late age. And they were far more athletic and nimble at 18 than Bynum.
Bynum will be a quality, starting C. Perhaps Brendan Haywood with better offense. 15/11/2 at his peak.
All-Star? No. |
so you are saying he is going to be as good as TD. championships here we come.
but seriously, people who start playing late will get good a bit later. i think you should wait until his third year befre giving him a carreer long label. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KevDog
Starting Rotation
Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 200
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| DancingBarry wrote: | | magic_bryant wrote: | | I said he'd just be CONSISTENT at SPL. He's not even consistently playing well. |
That would be pretty difficult to do for a lot of post players with the way we run our offense in the SPL. Some games he just gets a couple post touches. When he has gotten consistent post touches, he has been able to produce in all the games I've seen this summer. |
Well, Db knows about as much about basketball as anyone I've seen on these or any other boards. His words carry a lot of weight with me. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
10scott10
Star Player
Joined: 17 May 2006
Posts: 7428
Location: Making the games you play
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| magic_bryant wrote: | | DancingBarry wrote: | | magic_bryant wrote: | | DancingBarry wrote: | | magic_bryant wrote: | | I said he'd just be CONSISTENT at SPL. He's not even consistently playing well. |
That would be pretty difficult to do for a lot of post players with the way we run our offense in the SPL. Some games he just gets a couple post touches. When he has gotten consistent post touches, he has been able to produce in all the games I've seen this summer. |
What about his defense? Rebounding?
He's beginning to reach that point where he invests his ego into his scoring solely.
I mean, is it really too much to ask for 10 rebounds consistently from a guy as big and agile as he is, playing against the level of competition that he is? |
That's an area he says he wants to improve on. I think a lot has to do with his motor and conditioning. Some of it fundamentals.
"He's beginning to reach that point where he invests his ego into his scoring solely." Where do you get this from??? |
Go watch last season. His careless play on D and rebounding are reasons why he didn't get more minutes from Phil. He was too focused on scoring.
Just as he is right now. |
NO!!! he did not get PT because he was a rookie. name a rookie he has ever given lots of PT. you can go back to the bulls if you have to. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Voices
Star Player
Joined: 07 Jul 2006
Posts: 8287
Location: Oxnard, Ca.
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| RocknRoll wrote: | | I love this Farmar-Bynum duo. It sounds very promising for the lakers future. Green had a great game too. Somehow, he is a great rebounder. |
The future is now, Farmar is the lakes 2nd best guard right now, and Bynum will get better and better with playing time, he just needs playing time! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
magic_bryant
Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 18179
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| 10scott10 wrote: | | magic_bryant wrote: | I'm not penalizing him for a lack of experience in high school. I'm just being realistic. He's behind the curve. Tim Duncan and Hakeem are the only bigs to try and pick the game up at such a late age. And they were far more athletic and nimble at 18 than Bynum.
Bynum will be a quality, starting C. Perhaps Brendan Haywood with better offense. 15/11/2 at his peak.
All-Star? No. |
so you are saying he is going to be as good as TD. championships here we come.
but seriously, people who start playing late will get good a bit later. i think you should wait until his third year befre giving him a carreer long label. |
I've seen enough already.
He'll be a good starting C. He's simply lacking in too many areas already to be an All-Star C somewhere down the line.
_________________
Stephon Marbury on Kobe: "He's the only person on 'dis earth that can do 'dat. He guards people, like shuts 'em down. Then, to do 'dat on 'da offensive end. It's like 'Damn, I can't score on him AND he about to bust my ass." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
DancingBarry
Editor-in-Chief
Joined: 07 Sep 2001
Posts: 40222
Location: O.C.
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| magic_bryant wrote: | Go watch last season. His careless play on D and rebounding are reasons why he didn't get more minutes from Phil. He was too focused on scoring.
Just as he is right now. |
You are asking ME to go watch last season? You have got to be kidding...
I watched last season. I took notes on nearly every play of last season. You assume too much about what you think goes on in Bynum's head. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
2The4th
Star Player
Joined: 22 Apr 2003
Posts: 4529
Location: SoCal
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| I think the points he scored on SPL is not as important as what kind of the move he is using to score over the opponent. Easy baskets or dunks don't count as a move. So far from the video I saw, Bynum's move is not smooth. It is rather awkward. The hop is virtually non-existence. I don't see him scoring with that in a NBA game without getting himself blocked. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Freakout
Franchise Player
Joined: 12 Apr 2001
Posts: 11796
Location: WV
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Amare, Howard, and even Lebron had been playing against NBA players before they were even drafted. Same goes for Kobe and his practice's against Eddie and the team at Temple. To pretend these guys were green rookies like Bynum is really stretching the truth. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
baller
Starting Rotation
Joined: 14 May 2005
Posts: 588
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| magic_bryant wrote: | I'm not penalizing him for a lack of experience in high school. I'm just being realistic. He's behind the curve. Tim Duncan and Hakeem are the only bigs to try and pick the game up at such a late age. And they were far more athletic and nimble at 18 than Bynum.
Bynum will be a quality, starting C. Perhaps Brendan Haywood with better offense. 15/11/2 at his peak.
All-Star? No. |
How do you know? Anyone whose ever been good has dominated at 18? If they haven't then they can never improve, nevermind that he's still growing, nevermind that the lack of inexpierence in the rest of the team in the triangle, nevermind that in the spl bigs get in all kinds of foul trouble that doesn't happen in the nba. What curve? He's 18 and he's had some great games, he had a few bad games, both him playing bad and also because of his team. Artest only scored 12 points in his game this summer, should the kings forget about him because he can't dominate offensively? Bo Outlaw consistently dominates the summer league, does he dominate in the nba? From the spl there is now way you can predict a players future, you can see if they've developed certain tools, or things they need to work on, but it doesn't predict where a player is going to be. Bynum could be an all-star or he could not. But to already say at age 18 after a couple inconsitent games that he'll never get to an all-star level is not the facts, its what you want to happen. Because we have no idea what will happen at this point.
Last edited by baller on Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:24 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
