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magic_bryant
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Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 18179
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 Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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A PG who likes to create off the dribble can't work in the triangle? Hmmm. Tell that to the '72 team and Sharmon.
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they-perch
Star Player
Joined: 25 Jun 2005
Posts: 1184
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| Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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| magic_bryant wrote: | | LakerJam wrote: | MB, if you're in the backcourt and you're not a PG, what are you? You're a SG.
It’s true that Phil hasn’t had his PG s causing trouble by hogging the ball when MJ or Kobe should have it (though in L.A., Kobe was the defacto PG, not Fisher. Fisher was essentially the SG in the sense that he stood around waiting to shoot on a drive and kick), but that was more the result of the talent creating the line of hierchy. Michael, then Pippen, then ... Shaq, then Kobe then... None of those other guys would ever presume to make those legends play 2nd fiddle to them. I don’t even think that’s a realistic concern, though I get the ideal of it. Ideally, whoever your best players are, are the ones who typically get the priority on shots.
Point is, you need a guy with a scorer’s mentality who can pass in that backcourt with Kobe. No guy we draft is going to walk in that door and think he gets priority over Kobe. It’s just not a worry in my mind. I’ll tell you this, though, I’d rather have a guy taking an ill advised shot than being hesitant to take an open one - and drafting a scorer to be our 6th man sure wouldn’t keep me up at night.
That said, I’m not pushing Douby. I’m just saying that having a PG who thinks to score is a good thing for this team and this system, whoever that PG is. Also, I do agree with you that there has to be an element of unselfishness in our guards. |
Smush Parker looks to score. Would be a very good PG off the bench.
So, where's the need for Douby? |
smush doesnt score. he is extremely athletic and can finish strong when theres an open lane but not necessarily in traffic. inconsistent outside and midrange shot. cant create for himself or anyone else. smush is anything but a scorer. he could never provide any sort of spark off the bench.
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SHAQ/KOBE=#1
Star Player
Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 3260
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| Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Vlade wrote: | nbadraft.net has us taking mardy Collins at 26 now...
that wouldn't be a bad move in my opinion... as system guys with good size and intangibles to run the triangle offense. |
And good defense. |
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Luca Brasi
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Joined: 11 Jun 2005
Posts: 4207
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| Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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if the names j. farmar or p. davis are announced at 26 tomorrow night, i'm jumping out the window.
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SHAQ/KOBE=#1
Star Player
Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 3260
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| Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Luca Brasi wrote: | | if the names j. farmar or p. davis are announced at 26 tomorrow night, i'm jumping out the window. |
I'm not a big fan of Farmar (at least relative to who else will be at our position) but why don't you like Davis? |
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ShowtimeDynasty_24/7
Star Player
Joined: 04 Mar 2005
Posts: 8361
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| Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | Size/Skills/Athleticism/Defense/Intangibles Comments
Key: Size, Atheticism, and Intangibles graded by letter value. Skills noted by single through quadruple threat; Drive, Pass, Shoot, Post.
e.g. 2-T = Double threat.
1. Tyrus Thomas - B, 2T (Post, Midrange), A, B, B. - Thomas lacks elite height but makes up for it with physical play and massive wingspan. Easily an elite level athlete at PF. Has a midrange jumper and a basic post-game. Can be a great defender if he wants to. Great at working off the ball. Offensive tip-ins are his specialty. Plays with a chip on his shoulder.
Upside: Kenyon Martin
Downside: Stromile Swift
2. LaMarcus Aldridge - A, 2T, (Post, Midrange), B, C, C. - Great NBA size and length. Strong body. Not a physical player. Runs the floor well but not an explosive finisher. Strong post skills and developing midrange game. Can fade in the middle of games. Doesn't maximize his physical skills on both ends of the floor with physical play.
Upside: More skilled Brian Grant, Sacramento years
Downside: Brian Cook with paint game.
3. Rudy Gay - A, 2T (Midrange, Slash), A, C, B - Elite athleticism with elite size. Only has basic ball-handling skills. Strong midrange game. Explosive finisher. Developing 3pt. range. Can be a strong defender at the NBA level. Does float mentally during games.
Upside: Eddie Jones
Downside: James Posey
4. Ronnie Brewer - A, 3T (Shoot, Drive, Pass), A, A, B - Elite size for a PG, average for a SG. Great athlete. Multitude of skills to work in any offense. Underated man-defender... very intense. Plays with a sense of urgency and energy that every NBA team needs. No real downside except for his shooting arm.
Upside: Larry Hughes, better PG skill
Downside: John Salmons
5. Rajon Rondo - B+, 2T (Drive, Pass), A, A, B - Very good size for a PG. Lacks in strength, but makes up for it with elite lateral quickness and condor wingspan. Intuitive PG, with simple play mentality of drive and kick. Excellent man-defender. Potential All-D type with his attitude and aggressiveness. Still needs to learn how to win games as a cohesive unit and learn to dictate tempo more effectively.
Upside: Mookie Blaylock, with TJ Ford offensive skills.
Downside: Randy Brown
6. Brandon Roy - B+, 2T (Drive, Shoot), B+, B, A - Good combination of size, strength, and athleticism. Most completely skilled player in the draft. No real glaring weaknesses. Not an elite level athlete. Good defender, but could improve, especially when facing taller guards. Strong leadership skills. Good attitude. Great work ethic.
Upside: Byron Scott size/athleticism, Ginobili shot-creating ability.
Downside: Dahntay Jones
7. Patrick O'Bryant - A, 1T (Post), B, B, C - Strong center. Long learning curve. Good athleticism. Great size. Basic post skills. Played against weaker competition. Traditional center.
Upside: Jamaal Magloire
Downside: Andrew Bynum right now (I'd give Bynum the same scores.)
8. Sheldon Williams - B, 2T (Post, Midrange), B, B, B. - Lacks in height. Good, not great wingspan. Has shown to hit from midrange and kill on the block. Excellent team defender. Man-D surprising, usually can be foul prone despite the strong post base. Lacks lateral quickness. Not a truly explosive athlete, blocks shots with great timing and wingspan. Strong rebounder. Huge improvement since he entered Duke.
Upside: Boozer with swat skills, minus the midrange consistency
Downside: Ronny Turiaf
9. Cedric Simmons - B+, 1T (Post), B+, B, B. - Young bigman with raw fundamental skills. Finishes and rebounds with 2-hands like a real bigman should. Uptempo player, excels in the open floor. A project.
Upside: Nene
Downside: Steven Hunter
10. Thabo Sefalosha - B+, 2T (Shoot, Slash), B+, B, A - Underrated player with strong all-round skills. High IQ on and off the floor. Makes the simple plays. Unselfish. Does the small things that make him a great team/glue player while working in an effective offense. Can play all tempos.
Upside: Josh Howard, better jumpshot, less defensive ability/length
Downside: Carlos Delfino
11. Sergio Rodriguez - B-, 3T (Shoot, Drive, Pass), B, C-, B - Exciting PG with good height. Strong shooter, very creative playmaker. High risk PG. Lacks defensive intensity and lateral quickness. Can build a team's chemistry with imaginative play.
Upside: Steve Nash
Downside: Luke Ridnour
12. Mardy Collins - A, 3T (Shoot, Drive, Pass), B-, A, A - Solid, structure PG. Great fit for the triangle offense. Excelled at intercepting passes in the matchup zone defensive scheme. Created shots for his teammates when necessary. Bailed out the team. Underated playmaker with higher understanding of the basics. Leader. Solid man-defender. Excellent team defender.
Upside: Brian Shaw w/Defensive ability
Downside: John Salmons
13. Saer Sene - A, 1T (Post), B+, C, B - Wiry center. Has a wingspan that makes condors jealous. Raw, focuses on rebounder, team defense, and man-D. No shot creating skills. Developing a midrange jumper. Project. Good athleticism. Supreme timing, vertical leap, and wingspan for shotblocking. Good work ethic.
Upside: Samuel Dalembert
Downside: Steven Hunter
14. Maurice Ager - B, 2T (Shoot, Slash), B+, C, A - Good leader for Michigan St. Solid guard skills; shot creation, perimeter shot, slashing ability, ability to finish. Not a selfish player. Relaxes on defense when his energy output is offensively focused. Above average athlete.
Upside: Polished Morris Peterson
Downside: Kareem Rush
15. James White - A, 2T (Shoot, Slash), A+, B+, C - Best athlete of the draft. Below average ball-handling skill. Improved every category at Cincy. Developing 3pt. range. Can lack intensity. Can float during games. Can defend PG through SF. Developing guard skills. A bit of a project. Basic passer.
Upside: Polished Gerald Green/Jason Richardson
Downside: Gerald Green right now.
16. Hilton Armstrong
17. Paul Davis
18. Guillermo Diaz
19. Kyle Lowry
20. Quincy Douby
21. Shannon Brown
22. Marcus Vinicius
23. Hassan Adams
24. Darius Washington Jr.
25. Josh Boone
26. Mike Gansey
27. Leon Powe
28. Taj Gray
29. Bobby Jones
30. Allen Ray
31. Daniel Gibson |
I agree for the most part with all of those... |
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ShowtimeDynasty_24/7
Star Player
Joined: 04 Mar 2005
Posts: 8361
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| Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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| KobeButler wrote: | If JJ Reddicks stock is falling, would you guys do this trade?
Mihm + 51st for New Orleans 15th pick? I doubt hell last till our 26th pick.
Or better yet.... Mihm + 26th for #15th + JR Smith? |
not laughing at the deal, but for who we are trading up for, Im not passing up Andre Igoudala for Jeff Hornecek...... |
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ShowtimeDynasty_24/7
Star Player
Joined: 04 Mar 2005
Posts: 8361
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| Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerJam wrote: | | magic_bryant wrote: | | Why this love-fest with Douby? Have you learned NOTHING of trying to turn a SG into a PG just "because the Triangle doesn't require a true PG"? Have we not suffered enough using this moronic theory of SG as a defacto-PG. If a guy doesn't have the skills to be a PG, he can't play the position. Simple as that. |
Huh? Phil has won 9 championships in 10 Finals trips with SGs who play PG in the triangle. What happened when we had a real PG in Payton? He hated the offense because he couldn't dominate the ball the way a true PG typically does.
The reality is that it's not hot air - the triangle really DOES require a PG who has a SG mentality to score. Whether or not the PG is Douby is beside the point. The triangle offense is specifically referred to as a 2-guard front because of that fact. That's why it's different, because every guy on the team is expected to be able to pass, and the ball is never supposed to stay with one player for more than 2 seconds at a time. It's actually why players like Francis, Arenas, B Davis, and yes, even Douby, would fit well in it - because they're scorers who can pass. Personally, I don't like Francis or Davis, but I recognize that their mentality as scorers who can pass are precisely why they'd fit here in this system (okay, I take it back as to BD, who has grown on me with all his Kobe/Lakers love...). |
but the PG has to have a pass first mentality, thats why PJax likes veteran, Ron Harper had very good stats as a young SG but when he came to the Bulls he was a veteran, and his mindset and skills changed into a PG in a SG's body, but he could make shots, Douby, Gordan, Francis, and Arenas all need the ball and are shoot first, right now they aren't passers because their mindsets and skillsets are fixed on that.... |
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Mike@LG
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Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 65135
Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | but the PG has to have a pass first mentality, |
It's not a pass or score mentality.
The triangle offense is based on reading the defense, THEN making the right decision to shoot, drive, or pass.
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Resident Car Nut.
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans. |
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JP_Lakerfan
Star Player
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 1408
Location: Long Beach, CA
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| Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Vlade wrote: | nbadraft.net has us taking mardy Collins at 26 now...
that wouldn't be a bad move in my opinion... as system guys with good size and intangibles to run the triangle offense. |
Yeah, I noticed that as well. I wonder if they got some inside info? Collins stock has been dropping and acording to DraftExpress, the Lakers did not even work out Mardy Collins. |
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buphead
Starting Rotation
Joined: 15 May 2005
Posts: 719
Location: Valencia
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| Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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Collins would be a good pickup. I think he'd fit in very well in our system as Vlade said, he's a system guy.
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ALbino
Star Player
Joined: 28 Jun 2005
Posts: 1270
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| Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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Looks to me like there could be some quality available at 51. Guys like Taj Gray, Powe, Adams and Bobby Jones could be available there. Maybe even Guillermo Diaz, Vinicius or Barea. I'd be thrilled with any one of those guys at 51.
AL. |
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buphead
Starting Rotation
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Posts: 719
Location: Valencia
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| Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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If Vinicius is there at 51 we CANNOT pass him up. That'd be a great value considering it being a late 2nd round pick.
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ShowtimeDynasty_24/7
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Joined: 04 Mar 2005
Posts: 8361
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| Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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James White- 26
Marcus Vinicius- 51
...perfect draft, and unlikely but possible, lets hope and pray............. |
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ALbino
Star Player
Joined: 28 Jun 2005
Posts: 1270
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| Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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| ShowtimeDynasty_24/7 wrote: | James White- 26
Marcus Vinicius- 51
...perfect draft, and unlikely but possible, lets hope and pray............. |
That's funny because a month ago we would have said a perfect draft was:
26 - Vinicius
51 - White
It's amazing how so much can change so fast in this draft :)
AL. |
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buphead
Starting Rotation
Joined: 15 May 2005
Posts: 719
Location: Valencia
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| Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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| ALbino wrote: | | ShowtimeDynasty_24/7 wrote: | James White- 26
Marcus Vinicius- 51
...perfect draft, and unlikely but possible, lets hope and pray............. |
That's funny because a month ago we would have said a perfect draft was:
26 - Vinicius
51 - White
It's amazing how so much can change so fast in this draft 
AL. |
Very true AL.
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ShowtimeDynasty_24/7
Star Player
Joined: 04 Mar 2005
Posts: 8361
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| Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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| that is true, it is quite funny |
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postandpivot
Retired Number
Joined: 16 Sep 2003
Posts: 36822
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| Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | Quote: | | but the PG has to have a pass first mentality, |
It's not a pass or score mentality.
The triangle offense is based on reading the defense, THEN making the right decision to shoot, drive, or pass. |
Mike, me, you and everyone on LG already know what the defense will do with a kobe/lamar laker team.
defenseive scouting report for all nba teams- 1. triple team/quadruple team Bryant. make him pass the ball off. Good defensive teams, will close out on shooters. non defensive teams, will say, "let the other guys beat us".
If Lamar is killing tonight, double him, and keep 2 guys hedging towards bryant. Let the Other guys beat us with Jump shooting.
aint nothing changed MIke, and you know it.
So what kind of players do we need on the perimeter. if you already know what i described above is going to happen 75% of the time?
Guys that are triple threats(Shoot, Pass, Drive). but heavy on the jump shooting side.
And by the way its not just because we run the triangle why we need a somewhat scorer/shooter at pg. we need that kind of guy, so he has the ability and will to Get Back at opposing scoring pgs ( terry, cassell, nash, etc, etc) The worse thing in the world, is to have situation like smush's against nash during the later part of the offs. where if your shot isn't falling, and the lakers aren't setting up plays just for you. you can't do anything. but get scored on by nash. because no one stops these top pg's.
like i said, you can't beat em. JOIN EM. if we have a legit weapon at the pg, thats liable to fill it up if you leave him out there and try to play a pack it in zone, or triple team kobe or double lamar. its over. LIke said in an earlier post. a guy like Douby, can give a good defender that closes out on his shot. the good ole up fake, and go to the whole. and score. or even decide to dish it for the easy 2 from time to time.
as for someone saying Ron harper was good at playing pG. i say, you must not have watched Chicago when he first got there. ROn wasn't feeling it at all. and he still wasn't a great passer. he was a good defender. and savvy veteran ball player. all savvy vets no when, and when not to pass the ball. and what basic pass to make. you dont need chris paul/magic johnson passes, to make a savvy pass.
see some think a guy like brevon knight can work in the tri. and thats false. even though he would create off the dribble and make a few nice dishes. teams would see it, and switch up the de. to Pack in Zone, then Brevon would be on island all by himself to shoot and miss an open jumper. because he can't shoot well. I need a triple threat guy at PG. and as it seems. it will be a long time before we get lucky enough to draft the perfect fit guy, that can do all those things but doesn't posess a little bit of hot dog in them. |
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Mike@LG
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Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 65135
Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | even though he would create off the dribble and make a few nice dishes. teams would see it, and switch up the de. |
That opens up a dimension that was lost during the Shaq/Kobe years.
I think that's what gets lost in the scheme of things.
I've preached more than enough about having a balanced offense, post, slash, shoot.
Well, just so happens, the 2 best players on the team are slashers. Inadequate perimeter shooting. Severe lack of post presence. So, it's far easier to double/triple team Odom and Bryant and just use defensive cheating to have Parker and the gang try and beat teams from the perimeter.
Brevin Knight? Well hey, at least the defense is forced to stay sagged in the paint. More open perimeter opportunities.
I don't see what the fixation on Douby is about. He fits the profile, but that doesn't mean he's the BPA for the Lakers.
I don't want to "join" other teams. I have a higher expectation for the Lakers in order to become a dominant team.
Drive/Dish PGs allow the defensive attention to stay away from Odom and Bryant. A PG that beats his man and gets poor help rotation is a PG that gets a layup.
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postandpivot
Retired Number
Joined: 16 Sep 2003
Posts: 36822
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| Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike@LG wrote: | | Quote: | | even though he would create off the dribble and make a few nice dishes. teams would see it, and switch up the de. |
That opens up a dimension that was lost during the Shaq/Kobe years.
I think that's what gets lost in the scheme of things.
I've preached more than enough about having a balanced offense, post, slash, shoot.
Well, just so happens, the 2 best players on the team are slashers. Inadequate perimeter shooting. Severe lack of post presence. So, it's far easier to double/triple team Odom and Bryant and just use defensive cheating to have Parker and the gang try and beat teams from the perimeter.
Brevin Knight? Well hey, at least the defense is forced to stay sagged in the paint. More open perimeter opportunities.
I don't see what the fixation on Douby is about. He fits the profile, but that doesn't mean he's the BPA for the Lakers.
I don't want to "join" other teams. I have a higher expectation for the Lakers in order to become a dominant team.
Drive/Dish PGs allow the defensive attention to stay away from Odom and Bryant. A PG that beats his man and gets poor help rotation is a PG that gets a layup. |
we're not just talking Douby, we're talking Douby types. aka I can shoot the lights out, and score with the best of em. and I'm kind of a Hot dog.
those type of guys.
what you said, sounds great MIke. except for one fact. how many points does knight average? You wonder why? he can blow by most if not all opposing guards. because once teams realize whats going on. they will sit in there and cheat pack it in. yes it makes 3's that much more wide open, but so what, when you dont have SHOOTERS to knock them down. it will still be the same old. Pack it in, and let them live and die by the three.
well if your 3rd option can also dribble penetrate as well as shoot the lights out. there's no defensive scheme you can use. all you can do is play good position de, and hope he, kobe or lo miss. thats it. and thats what i need out of the lakers. a Total mismatch.
and for the record, i started talking about Douby vs White, for other reasons. You can find the White's of hoop all over the world, with ease. but a Douby doesn't come along often. not a scoring short guard that can really shoot well. its always a shooter, that scores with just wide open setup 3's. or a short scorer that can take people off the dribble, but has an unreliable jumper. ITs rip hamilton at Point guard. would you mind playing a 6'3 rip hamilton at pg with kobe in the backcourt? I wouldn't |
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Mike@LG
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Posts: 65135
Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 6:58 am Post subject: |
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Well hey, I don't have a problem with that kind of PG, e.g. Luther Head.
Just something about Douby's game I don't like and I can't point it out specifically.
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shaqobe
Sixth Man
Joined: 25 Apr 2001
Posts: 31
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 8:00 am Post subject: double douby |
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if douby is there , we have to take him for the
exact reasons these guys have given
he's the perfect fit for this team
when kobe or lamar penetrates we have no one
that they can kick it to that will knock that
shot down with any consistency
if he's there and we pass on him
it'll be huge mistake |
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Fan0Bynum17
Franchise Player
Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Posts: 15436
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 8:16 am Post subject: |
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| Would anyone be too upset if we drafted Joel Freeland with James White still on the board? |
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Freakout
Franchise Player
Joined: 12 Apr 2001
Posts: 11796
Location: WV
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 8:33 am Post subject: |
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| Ager, White, or Diaz and I'll be a happy fan. |
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Fan0Bynum17
Franchise Player
Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Posts: 15436
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| Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 8:35 am Post subject: |
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| I hope Mike Gansey falls, that kid belongs on the lakers!!! |
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