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wolfpaclaker
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 Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2021 2:52 am Post subject: |
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Think about it this way. When the defenses drop down to cover Westbrook on his drives, they know a kick out is coming. They will do the same when AD has the ball in the paint, or when Bron does. When that double comes, they then tend to gear towards some rotations.
3 point shooting, comes and goes. If your 3 point shooter is a spot up guy exclusively, it means anytime he doesn't spot up, he is useless. And if he is not "on" you're getting literally nothing. What I like about multi facet role players is that they can spot up for 3, but then bring other qualities.
If you think about KCP at his best (NBA Finals 2020), he brought more to the team than just the 3 ball. He made some great drives to the basket and some plays. If we can get Monk to play that same role, I think he will do a lot better in it than an Ellington. Here's the thing though, Monk is not good on defense based on the last few years. But what I liked about Monk going into this season is exactly what Vogel has already noticed. He is simply more than just a 3 point shooting threat. The Lakers could get some 3 pointers from him, but also some off the ball cuts that can lead to a shot at the rim (or above the rim). They can get some fastbreak finishes (Again KCP did this for us). They can get some ballhandling, especially important when a big guy is setting a screen for you (We saw Bradley and KCP run those plays with our bigs a lot 2 years ago).
I dunno, but if Monk commits to D, he is 100% a guy I start around the big 3. Gives you all the talents you want. 3 point shooting threat. Off the ball above the rim threat. Fastbreak finisher. You get none of that stuff from Baze or Ellington. Then factor the narrative on our team is that they are old. You suddenly start a guy that's 23 years old and just entering his athletic prime, and is an above average athlete by NBA standards. With AD, Monk, Westbrook. Even around an "old" past athletic prime Bron, you have 3 supremely athletic players and the "old and slow" narrative just doesn't hold weight, as 3 of your starters are either elite athletes (AD/Westbrook) or close to elite (Monk) for their position, and all in their athletic primes (Age 23, 28, 32). |
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activeverb
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Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 37470
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| Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2021 7:36 am Post subject: |
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| joeblow wrote: |
Ariza has now played for 13 teams, including helping the Lakers reach two NBA Finals and winning one of them with us. So about that correlation... |
The first year that Ariza played for us, and we got to the finals, he was an end-of-the-bench player. He was a non-entity on that team.
The second year he went on an amazing 3-point shooting streak at just the right time in the playoffs.
That created a reputation he's a 3-and-d player, even though he's actually a below-average 3-point shooter for his career.
His entire reputation is built on that hot streak during the 09 playoffs. |
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lar9149
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Joined: 10 Jul 2010
Posts: 2361
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| Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2021 7:51 am Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | Think about it this way. When the defenses drop down to cover Westbrook on his drives, they know a kick out is coming. They will do the same when AD has the ball in the paint, or when Bron does. When that double comes, they then tend to gear towards some rotations.
3 point shooting, comes and goes. If your 3 point shooter is a spot up guy exclusively, it means anytime he doesn't spot up, he is useless. And if he is not "on" you're getting literally nothing. What I like about multi facet role players is that they can spot up for 3, but then bring other qualities.
If you think about KCP at his best (NBA Finals 2020), he brought more to the team than just the 3 ball. He made some great drives to the basket and some plays. If we can get Monk to play that same role, I think he will do a lot better in it than an Ellington. Here's the thing though, Monk is not good on defense based on the last few years. But what I liked about Monk going into this season is exactly what Vogel has already noticed. He is simply more than just a 3 point shooting threat. The Lakers could get some 3 pointers from him, but also some off the ball cuts that can lead to a shot at the rim (or above the rim). They can get some fastbreak finishes (Again KCP did this for us). They can get some ballhandling, especially important when a big guy is setting a screen for you (We saw Bradley and KCP run those plays with our bigs a lot 2 years ago).
I dunno, but if Monk commits to D, he is 100% a guy I start around the big 3. Gives you all the talents you want. 3 point shooting threat. Off the ball above the rim threat. Fastbreak finisher. You get none of that stuff from Baze or Ellington. Then factor the narrative on our team is that they are old. You suddenly start a guy that's 23 years old and just entering his athletic prime, and is an above average athlete by NBA standards. With AD, Monk, Westbrook. Even around an "old" past athletic prime Bron, you have 3 supremely athletic players and the "old and slow" narrative just doesn't hold weight, as 3 of your starters are either elite athletes (AD/Westbrook) or close to elite (Monk) for their position, and all in their athletic primes (Age 23, 28, 32). |
I think you could be onto something there. Don’t have much to add but I saw Vogel interview yesterday and he said definitely what you mentioned Monk is more than a 3 point shooter. also he said how Monk isn’t a point guard but does have playmaking ability and you can initiate plays through him. |
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King Randle
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| Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2021 8:16 am Post subject: |
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| joeblow wrote: | | King Randle wrote: | Vogel said Malik Monk’s versatility has stood out early in camp. His "shooting, cutting, moving without the basketball, catching lobs on the break and in the half court … initiating offense wiith certain actions.
Mike Trudell
This is why he should and IMO will play more than Ellington. Ellington is just a journey guy….10 teams in 12 years tells u all u need to know. None of those teams thought he was worth keeping. |
Ariza has now played for 13 teams, including helping the Lakers reach two NBA Finals and winning one of them with us. So about that correlation... |
One guy….and the truth is Ariza hasn’t been very good for 5 years. Listen I hope you’re right but Wayne has never been paid (Ariza has) and has floated around. No team ever committing to him. So I don’t think things will change here. Monk has so much upside. But like I said whoever makes shots and contributes when it matters will play more. And I hope it Monk. |
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joeblow
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| Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2021 8:58 am Post subject: |
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| King Randle wrote: | | joeblow wrote: | | King Randle wrote: | Vogel said Malik Monk’s versatility has stood out early in camp. His "shooting, cutting, moving without the basketball, catching lobs on the break and in the half court … initiating offense wiith certain actions.
Mike Trudell
This is why he should and IMO will play more than Ellington. Ellington is just a journey guy….10 teams in 12 years tells u all u need to know. None of those teams thought he was worth keeping. |
Ariza has now played for 13 teams, including helping the Lakers reach two NBA Finals and winning one of them with us. So about that correlation... |
One guy….and the truth is Ariza hasn’t been very good for 5 years. Listen I hope you’re right but Wayne has never been paid (Ariza has) and has floated around. No team ever committing to him. So I don’t think things will change here. Monk has so much upside. But like I said whoever makes shots and contributes when it matters will play more. And I hope it Monk. |
I wasn't arguing for Ellington as much as I was arguing against the correlation you made insinuating that the high number of teams a someone played for = not worth keeping. Nothing more than that. Ariza was a competent contributor for most of his teams, and I looked up Heat comments about him last year early on in the off season and was encouraged at how much they liked him on their squad defensively.
If anything, most of my posts here are usually about how important defense is to win championships. By his reputation alone that puts Ellington at the end of my depth chart, but I'm keeping an open mind until I see him perform in purple and gold. |
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King Randle
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Joined: 21 Jul 2014
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| Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2021 11:04 am Post subject: |
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| joeblow wrote: | | King Randle wrote: | | joeblow wrote: | | King Randle wrote: | Vogel said Malik Monk’s versatility has stood out early in camp. His "shooting, cutting, moving without the basketball, catching lobs on the break and in the half court … initiating offense wiith certain actions.
Mike Trudell
This is why he should and IMO will play more than Ellington. Ellington is just a journey guy….10 teams in 12 years tells u all u need to know. None of those teams thought he was worth keeping. |
Ariza has now played for 13 teams, including helping the Lakers reach two NBA Finals and winning one of them with us. So about that correlation... |
One guy….and the truth is Ariza hasn’t been very good for 5 years. Listen I hope you’re right but Wayne has never been paid (Ariza has) and has floated around. No team ever committing to him. So I don’t think things will change here. Monk has so much upside. But like I said whoever makes shots and contributes when it matters will play more. And I hope it Monk. |
I wasn't arguing for Ellington as much as I was arguing against the correlation you made insinuating that the high number of teams a someone played for = not worth keeping. Nothing more than that. Ariza was a competent contributor for most of his teams, and I looked up Heat comments about him last year early on in the off season and was encouraged at how much they liked him on their squad defensively.
If anything, most of my posts here are usually about how important defense is to win championships. By his reputation alone that puts Ellington at the end of my depth chart, but I'm keeping an open mind until I see him perform in purple and gold. |
Agree with you bro…..solid. |
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dcarter4kobe
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Joined: 30 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2021 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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Starting AD/LeBron at the 5/4 would help the Lakers with their guard over load.
AD-30/Dwight-18
LeBron-32/Melo-12/AD-4
Ariza-20/Baze-20/THT-8
Monk or Ellington-24/THT-16/Nunn-8
Westbrook-32/Nunn-16
Depth-Jordan/Rondo/Monk or Ellington/Reaves.
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MookieBetts50
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Joined: 22 Jul 2020
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| Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2021 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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| dcarter4kobe wrote: | Starting AD/LeBron at the 5/4 would help the Lakers with their guard over load.
AD-30/Dwight-18
LeBron-32/Melo-12/AD-4
Ariza-20/Baze-20/THT-8
Monk or Ellington-24/THT-16/Nunn-8
Westbrook-32/Nunn-16
Depth-Jordan/Rondo/Monk or Ellington/Reaves. |
Doubt Melo signed on here for only 12 mins per. Likely him and LBJ will share some time together when Russ rests as there's more shots available. Also Ariza is gonna be more a role player even if starting he ain't playing all 82. |
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audioaxes
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| Posted: Sun Oct 03, 2021 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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THT still looking like a project who likely is not going to be able to play at a high level consistently. He should not be stealing minutes from Monk and Nunn if he doesnt earn it.
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Car54
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| Posted: Mon Oct 04, 2021 3:59 am Post subject: |
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| audioaxes wrote: | | THT still looking like a project who likely is not going to be able to play at a high level consistently. He should not be stealing minutes from Monk and Nunn if he doesnt earn it. |
I keep seeing he’s guaranteed paying time and it’s his to lose lol
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32
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| Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2021 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | At the end of Tuesday’s practice, the first team is a small ball group for LAL composed of LeBron, AD, Westbrook, Melo and Monk. AD just hit a contested 2 from the corner, then LeBron drained a fadeaway from the baseline on the next trip down. |
https://mobile.twitter.com/LakersReporter/status/1445489059996962822
| Quote: | | Frank Vogel said he doesn’t want to be changing lineups often throughout the season. He wants to get a base lineup established, and then sure, switch things up when needed, but generally stick with what is decided. |
https://mobile.twitter.com/LakersReporter/status/1445496909863395332
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Car54
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| Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2021 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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So we playing small or what Frank?
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activeverb
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| Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2021 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Car54 wrote: | | audioaxes wrote: | | THT still looking like a project who likely is not going to be able to play at a high level consistently. He should not be stealing minutes from Monk and Nunn if he doesnt earn it. |
I keep seeing he’s guaranteed paying time and it’s his to lose lol |
Given that THT is the only player under contract next season besides the big three, I would expect him to get at least 20 minutes a game to start the season. |
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Car54
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| Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2021 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | Car54 wrote: | | audioaxes wrote: | | THT still looking like a project who likely is not going to be able to play at a high level consistently. He should not be stealing minutes from Monk and Nunn if he doesnt earn it. |
I keep seeing he’s guaranteed paying time and it’s his to lose lol |
Given that THT is the only player under contract next season besides the big three, I would expect him to get at least 20 minutes a game to start the season. |
Wouldn’t him being under contract be less of a guarantee for playtime? Lebron and them ain’t allowing anyone who doesn’t fit to play. They’re trying to win a championship
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PlantedTanks
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| Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2021 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | Think about it this way. When the defenses drop down to cover Westbrook on his drives, they know a kick out is coming. They will do the same when AD has the ball in the paint, or when Bron does. When that double comes, they then tend to gear towards some rotations.
3 point shooting, comes and goes. If your 3 point shooter is a spot up guy exclusively, it means anytime he doesn't spot up, he is useless. And if he is not "on" you're getting literally nothing. What I like about multi facet role players is that they can spot up for 3, but then bring other qualities.
If you think about KCP at his best (NBA Finals 2020), he brought more to the team than just the 3 ball. He made some great drives to the basket and some plays. If we can get Monk to play that same role, I think he will do a lot better in it than an Ellington. Here's the thing though, Monk is not good on defense based on the last few years. But what I liked about Monk going into this season is exactly what Vogel has already noticed. He is simply more than just a 3 point shooting threat. The Lakers could get some 3 pointers from him, but also some off the ball cuts that can lead to a shot at the rim (or above the rim). They can get some fastbreak finishes (Again KCP did this for us). They can get some ballhandling, especially important when a big guy is setting a screen for you (We saw Bradley and KCP run those plays with our bigs a lot 2 years ago).
I dunno, but if Monk commits to D, he is 100% a guy I start around the big 3. Gives you all the talents you want. 3 point shooting threat. Off the ball above the rim threat. Fastbreak finisher. You get none of that stuff from Baze or Ellington. Then factor the narrative on our team is that they are old. You suddenly start a guy that's 23 years old and just entering his athletic prime, and is an above average athlete by NBA standards. With AD, Monk, Westbrook. Even around an "old" past athletic prime Bron, you have 3 supremely athletic players and the "old and slow" narrative just doesn't hold weight, as 3 of your starters are either elite athletes (AD/Westbrook) or close to elite (Monk) for their position, and all in their athletic primes (Age 23, 28, 32). |
One aspect about Ellington is he is not just a spot up shooter. He is imo the best movement shooter on the team and this is not just running off screens which he is adept at. He has the ability to create space with 2-3 dribble moves varying lateral or north-south steps to get his shot off while maintaining balance. This is a talent in itself that I have not seen Monk have in his arsenal yet. That being said I prefer WE coming off the bench rotating as one of the perimeter shooters especially when the team needs an offensive lift. |
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DancingBarry
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| Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2021 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Car54 wrote: |
So we playing small or what Frank? |
Yeah, I've been picturing this lineup getting a bit of run. That's a tough offense to defend. Money shooters in Melo/Monk. The 5-out for Russ/LBJ to attack. I'd sag off Russ/AD to help clog lanes against LBJ, but if you get Russ cutting while AD is outside, defenders have to respect that. If you get Russ setting a pin-in screen (probably dreaming here) for Monk/Melo weakside corner, LeBron will find that. I'd like to see LBJ/AD two-man action on one side and Russ/Melo two-man action on the other side of the court. That will cause havoc. Russ/Melo has a lot of potential if you force any kind of switch or an overplay on Russ.
Defensively, not great. It will depend on matchups. You have some opportunities to hide Melo with LeBron able to take the tougher assignment. Russ can take the tougher guard assignments for Monk. Russ/AD can switch and can handle their subsequent mismatches well, which can get some stops. The 4 vets can help get Monk to move/make reads on D since they should play on a string and get him learning where to go pretty quickly. So just getting reps with this unit should help him. But I'm very nervous if this is played late in the game. Rotate out Monk/Melo for Baze/Ariza for a super flexible lineup to get some closing-time stops. |
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hydrohead
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| Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2021 2:22 am Post subject: |
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| Car54 wrote: |
So we playing small or what Frank? |
We better. Not much depth at C. Dwight and Howard should be trading off bench C minutes with AD starting.
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hydrohead
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| Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2021 2:30 am Post subject: |
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i get the sense that Vogel is realizing that he doesn’t have much in shooting to put around 360.
Like this lineup if Monk can channel some KCP chaser/harasser D and Melo gives us anything on the D.
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2021 3:16 am Post subject: |
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I do not see us playing smaller to start, as it does not give the physical aspect of the Lakers they felt they missed, last year. That lineup is definitely one of the lineups that has the most shot making on the team. You have 5 players that can knock down shots, create their own shot at a high level. And you have floor spacing. Going to be tough for teams to cover that.
But since the Lakers identity is built on D, I can not see that being a starting lineup right now. I think we should be patient, and stick with AD at the 4, and slide him over to the 5 as the game goes on. This allows AD to be physical at the 4, and also allows him to stay away from early foul trouble trying to rim protect. At the 4, in Frank's system, there also more close outs to shooters, from what I have seen. I trust AD on this with his length and foot speed. I do not trust Melo as a close out defender at the 4, at all. Melo can do decently in isolation defense, but as a close out team defender, I have never found him to be very reliable. To make our defense work, we need that 4 that will move his feet.
The halfcourt sets may not be pretty with the 2 bigs lineup + Russ, but in the end you do not win or lose the game in the first 6 minutes of each half. That's all it is really, the first 6 min of each half. Sometimes we will hate the offense of the 2 big lineups, but in the end we have to go back to last year and try to think about how little we liked it when we looked not so physically intimidating or big and we felt we lost our identity. |
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Lucky_Shot
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Joined: 10 Jan 2016
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| Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2021 7:49 am Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | I do not see us playing smaller to start, as it does not give the physical aspect of the Lakers they felt they missed, last year. That lineup is definitely one of the lineups that has the most shot making on the team. You have 5 players that can knock down shots, create their own shot at a high level. And you have floor spacing. Going to be tough for teams to cover that.
But since the Lakers identity is built on D, I can not see that being a starting lineup right now. I think we should be patient, and stick with AD at the 4, and slide him over to the 5 as the game goes on. This allows AD to be physical at the 4, and also allows him to stay away from early foul trouble trying to rim protect. At the 4, in Frank's system, there also more close outs to shooters, from what I have seen. I trust AD on this with his length and foot speed. I do not trust Melo as a close out defender at the 4, at all. Melo can do decently in isolation defense, but as a close out team defender, I have never found him to be very reliable. To make our defense work, we need that 4 that will move his feet.
The halfcourt sets may not be pretty with the 2 bigs lineup + Russ, but in the end you do not win or lose the game in the first 6 minutes of each half. That's all it is really, the first 6 min of each half. Sometimes we will hate the offense of the 2 big lineups, but in the end we have to go back to last year and try to think about how little we liked it when we looked not so physically intimidating or big and we felt we lost our identity. |
Umm you can definitely lose a game by playing bad basketball for 12 minutes...
It has its place against some teams (Denver, Bucks). And that's why we sign these guys, to matchup against specific teams. It gives us the ability to play a different style when needed. But it shouldn't be our default setting |
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epic_
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| Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2021 10:15 am Post subject: |
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| epic_ wrote: | https://i.redd.it/zamd8tt6vwq71.jpg
Bruh, with HBK being #15, Dwight taking #14 would have been perfect!!! |
Dang, and we would top it off with #16 for Gasol.
C'mon Dwight!!!! I'm referring to you as D14 this year.
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💜💛 🏆 👀 🍖 #18!!! |
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av3773
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| Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 8:15 am Post subject: |
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Ok, Seasons going to start soon...here is my guess
PG - Starter - Russ Next in line - Rondo
SG - Sarer -Monk, Next in Line - THT
SF - Starter - LBJ, Next in line - Ellington
PF - Starter - AD, Next in line - Melo
C - Starter - DJ, Next in Line Dwight
That second line of core rotation players (beyond situational considerations) could actually go in a lot of directions, Baze, Nunn |
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DLaker
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Posts: 1538
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| Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 10:00 am Post subject: |
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I like to have 2 bigs in the lineup. I don't know the hesitancy is on going big, and thinking with RW at point we will need more shooting.
OKC 09-10 starter (RW, Durant, Thabo, Ibaka, Krstic)
OKC 10-14 starter (RW, Durant, Thabo, Ibaka, Perkins)
OKC 14-15 starter (RW, Durant,Robertson, Ibaka, Adams) (Durant 27 games)
OKC 15-16 starter (RW, Durant, Robertson, Ibaka, Adams)
OKC 16-17 starter (RW, Oladipo, Robertson, Gibson, Adams
OKC 17-18 starter (RW, PG, Brewer, Melo, Adams)
OKC 18-19 starter (RW, PG, Ferguson, Grant, Adams)
OKC 19-21 not worth mentioning small ball no def.
Just looking at the team RW is in we is very successful with not too much shooting around him and with two bigs.
A lineup of
RW, (Monk/Basemore/Ellington) , LBJ, AD, (DJ/Dwight) should do very well IMO |
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defense
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| Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 10:46 am Post subject: |
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| If Jordan starts over Howard I will lose it |
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Laker's Fan
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| Posted: Fri Oct 08, 2021 10:51 am Post subject: |
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| defense wrote: | | If Jordan starts over Howard I will lose it |
Not looking forward to that either, though I like Howard off the bench as an energy big that gives you a solid rim protector in non-Davis minutes.
Some of the issue may be that Davis will be out of rebounding position a lot if he’s having to cover the rim for poor perimeter defense. He’s a good but not elite rebounder, so the other ‘big’ has to clean up the glass. Russ will help with that too. Basically, we need a better version of Jordan.
| hydrohead wrote: |
i get the sense that Vogel is realizing that he doesn’t have much in shooting to put around 360.
Like this lineup if Monk can channel some KCP chaser/harasser D and Melo gives us anything on the D. |
The defense and rebounding would be interesting, but Monk and Melo would space really well.
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