Seattle renters commission proposes ban on credit checks in rental applications
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DaMuleRules
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 1:48 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
jodeke wrote:
If I were a property for rent owner I'd want to know if the person applying paid their bills on time. Owners have mortgages.


Except nothing on a credit report indicates whether someone will pay their rent. In fact, people will usually default on the things that show up on a credit report first in order to pay rent, utilities, and buy food. Plus, you can access previous landlords and get an exact answer to your question.

This is in a credit report. The gist of the post is in bold blue.


No it’s actually not. Many people with horrible credit pay their rent on time (and that almost never gets reported to the credit agencies), and many renters have no credit score. Multiple studies have shown very little link between credit score and rent payment.


Exactly. FICO scores etc. are based on data from large lenders for mortgages, auto loans and credit card companies. While there may be some large scale rental companies that might report tenant payment history, the average landlord is not reporting such things to the major credit reporting companies.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 1:54 pm    Post subject:

red-lining
fico
credit checks
non-whites need not apply here
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 1:59 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
jodeke wrote:
If I were a property for rent owner I'd want to know if the person applying paid their bills on time. Owners have mortgages.


Except nothing on a credit report indicates whether someone will pay their rent. In fact, people will usually default on the things that show up on a credit report first in order to pay rent, utilities, and buy food. Plus, you can access previous landlords and get an exact answer to your question.

This is in a credit report. The gist of the post is in bold blue.


No it’s actually not. Many people with horrible credit pay their rent on time (and that almost never gets reported to the credit agencies), and many renters have no credit score. Multiple studies have shown very little link between credit score and rent payment.


Bills not rent is what I as a rental property owner would like to know. Why are you ignoring that?
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 2:23 pm    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
jodeke wrote:
If I were a property for rent owner I'd want to know if the person applying paid their bills on time. Owners have mortgages.


Except nothing on a credit report indicates whether someone will pay their rent. In fact, people will usually default on the things that show up on a credit report first in order to pay rent, utilities, and buy food. Plus, you can access previous landlords and get an exact answer to your question.

This is in a credit report. The gist of the post is in bold blue.


No it’s actually not. Many people with horrible credit pay their rent on time (and that almost never gets reported to the credit agencies), and many renters have no credit score. Multiple studies have shown very little link between credit score and rent payment.


Bills not rent is what I as a rental property owner would like to know. Why are you ignoring that?


I’m not ignoring it. The entire point of what they are trying to do is based on the fact that your intuition is wrong.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 2:31 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
jodeke wrote:
If I were a property for rent owner I'd want to know if the person applying paid their bills on time. Owners have mortgages.


Except nothing on a credit report indicates whether someone will pay their rent. In fact, people will usually default on the things that show up on a credit report first in order to pay rent, utilities, and buy food. Plus, you can access previous landlords and get an exact answer to your question.

This is in a credit report. The gist of the post is in bold blue.


No it’s actually not. Many people with horrible credit pay their rent on time (and that almost never gets reported to the credit agencies), and many renters have no credit score. Multiple studies have shown very little link between credit score and rent payment.


Bills not rent is what I as a rental property owner would like to know. Why are you ignoring that?


I’m not ignoring it. The entire point of what they are trying to do is based on the fact that your intuition is wrong.

What intuition? I'm not inferring it's in code, it's JUST SOMETHING I'D LIKE TO KNOW.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 2:38 pm    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:

Bills not rent is what I as a rental property owner would like to know.


That's interesting.
So if I paid my ATT cell phone bill early and paid my rent late consistently? You'd rather rent to me than if I paid my rent early and my ATT cell phone bill late?
I'm surprised to hear that.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 2:44 pm    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
jodeke wrote:
If I were a property for rent owner I'd want to know if the person applying paid their bills on time. Owners have mortgages.


Except nothing on a credit report indicates whether someone will pay their rent. In fact, people will usually default on the things that show up on a credit report first in order to pay rent, utilities, and buy food. Plus, you can access previous landlords and get an exact answer to your question.

This is in a credit report. The gist of the post is in bold blue.


No it’s actually not. Many people with horrible credit pay their rent on time (and that almost never gets reported to the credit agencies), and many renters have no credit score. Multiple studies have shown very little link between credit score and rent payment.


Bills not rent is what I as a rental property owner would like to know. Why are you ignoring that?


I’m not ignoring it. The entire point of what they are trying to do is based on the fact that your intuition is wrong.

What intuition? I'm not inferring it's in code, it's JUST SOMETHING I'D LIKE TO KNOW.


I get that, it’s just not useful information (your intuition being that you think it is), and is actually the opposite of useful.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 2:44 pm    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
jodeke wrote:

Bills not rent is what I as a rental property owner would like to know.


That's interesting.
So if I paid my ATT cell phone bill early and paid my rent late consistently? You'd rather rent to me than if I paid my rent early and my ATT cell phone bill late?

NO. As a rental property owner I'd like to have some idea of your bill load. Are you consistently late yet up to date? I'd consider that in my acceptance or not of your application.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 2:48 pm    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
kikanga wrote:
jodeke wrote:

Bills not rent is what I as a rental property owner would like to know.


That's interesting.
So if I paid my ATT cell phone bill early and paid my rent late consistently? You'd rather rent to me than if I paid my rent early and my ATT cell phone bill late?

NO. As a rental property owner I'd like to have some idea of your bill load. Are you consistently late yet up to date? I'd consider that in my acceptance or not of your application.


When I was a poor pre-med student. Working and going to school. I had to choose what bills I'd pay with the little money I had on a given day.
I normally prioritized rent. Because I always worried about, what if I wanted to move in the future.
Never paid rent late in my life. Thought that is why I've never been denied when I applied to move somewhere new.
You're kinda bursting my bubble. Maybe people rented to me despite the fact I did that.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 2:55 pm    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
jodeke wrote:
kikanga wrote:
jodeke wrote:

Bills not rent is what I as a rental property owner would like to know.


That's interesting.
So if I paid my ATT cell phone bill early and paid my rent late consistently? You'd rather rent to me than if I paid my rent early and my ATT cell phone bill late?

NO. As a rental property owner I'd like to have some idea of your bill load. Are you consistently late yet up to date? I'd consider that in my acceptance or not of your application.


When I was a poor pre-med student. Working and going to school. I had to choose what bills I'd pay with the little money I had on a given day.
I normally prioritized rent. Because I always worried about, what if I wanted to move in the future.
Never paid rent late in my life. Thought that is why I've never been denied when I applied to move somewhere new.
You're kinda bursting my bubble. Maybe people rented to me despite the fact I did that.

Good for you for paying your rent on time. I also have priorities. Rent, utilities, food. If you're late on your bills but they're current, I'd take that into consideration. If your rent was late but current I'd also consider that. I'm seeking some kind of assurance that your rent will be paid.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 3:55 pm    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
jodeke wrote:
If I were a property for rent owner I'd want to know if the person applying paid their bills on time. Owners have mortgages.


Except nothing on a credit report indicates whether someone will pay their rent. In fact, people will usually default on the things that show up on a credit report first in order to pay rent, utilities, and buy food. Plus, you can access previous landlords and get an exact answer to your question.

This is in a credit report. The gist of the post is in bold blue.


No it’s actually not. Many people with horrible credit pay their rent on time (and that almost never gets reported to the credit agencies), and many renters have no credit score. Multiple studies have shown very little link between credit score and rent payment.


Bills not rent is what I as a rental property owner would like to know. Why are you ignoring that?


He didn't ignore. In fact, he directly addressed it by pointing out that how one pays bills doesn't correlate to how one pays rent. It was pretty clear in his explanation.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:38 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
jodeke wrote:
If I were a property for rent owner I'd want to know if the person applying paid their bills on time. Owners have mortgages.


Except nothing on a credit report indicates whether someone will pay their rent. In fact, people will usually default on the things that show up on a credit report first in order to pay rent, utilities, and buy food. Plus, you can access previous landlords and get an exact answer to your question.

This is in a credit report. The gist of the post is in bold blue.


No it’s actually not. Many people with horrible credit pay their rent on time (and that almost never gets reported to the credit agencies), and many renters have no credit score. Multiple studies have shown very little link between credit score and rent payment.


Bills not rent is what I as a rental property owner would like to know. Why are you ignoring that?


I’m not ignoring it. The entire point of what they are trying to do is based on the fact that your intuition is wrong.

What intuition? I'm not inferring it's in code, it's JUST SOMETHING I'D LIKE TO KNOW.


I get that, it’s just not useful information (your intuition being that you think it is), and is actually the opposite of useful.

It may not be useful in your world, it is in mine and that's important to me. I won't so presumptive as to call your intuitions useless because I don't know from what base they were formed.
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Last edited by jodeke on Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 5:05 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
jodeke wrote:
If I were a property for rent owner I'd want to know if the person applying paid their bills on time. Owners have mortgages.


Except nothing on a credit report indicates whether someone will pay their rent. In fact, people will usually default on the things that show up on a credit report first in order to pay rent, utilities, and buy food. Plus, you can access previous landlords and get an exact answer to your question.

This is in a credit report. The gist of the post is in bold blue.


No it’s actually not. Many people with horrible credit pay their rent on time (and that almost never gets reported to the credit agencies), and many renters have no credit score. Multiple studies have shown very little link between credit score and rent payment.


Bills not rent is what I as a rental property owner would like to know. Why are you ignoring that?


He didn't ignore. In fact, he directly addressed it by pointing out that how one pays bills doesn't correlate to how one pays rent. It was pretty clear in his explanation.

Okay. Said I was talking about bills, not rent. Said it was something I wanted to know.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 5:41 pm    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
jodeke wrote:
If I were a property for rent owner I'd want to know if the person applying paid their bills on time. Owners have mortgages.


Except nothing on a credit report indicates whether someone will pay their rent. In fact, people will usually default on the things that show up on a credit report first in order to pay rent, utilities, and buy food. Plus, you can access previous landlords and get an exact answer to your question.

This is in a credit report. The gist of the post is in bold blue.


No it’s actually not. Many people with horrible credit pay their rent on time (and that almost never gets reported to the credit agencies), and many renters have no credit score. Multiple studies have shown very little link between credit score and rent payment.


Bills not rent is what I as a rental property owner would like to know. Why are you ignoring that?


He didn't ignore. In fact, he directly addressed it by pointing out that how one pays bills doesn't correlate to how one pays rent. It was pretty clear in his explanation.

Okay. Said I was talking about bills, not rent. Said it was something I wanted to know.


You're the one doing the ignoring. As people have been making clear, what you may want to know as a landlord is not what you need to know in regards to tenants actually paying their rent. How they pay their bills is not indicative of how they pay their rent.
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You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:13 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
jodeke wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
jodeke wrote:
If I were a property for rent owner I'd want to know if the person applying paid their bills on time. Owners have mortgages.


Except nothing on a credit report indicates whether someone will pay their rent. In fact, people will usually default on the things that show up on a credit report first in order to pay rent, utilities, and buy food. Plus, you can access previous landlords and get an exact answer to your question.

This is in a credit report. The gist of the post is in bold blue.


No it’s actually not. Many people with horrible credit pay their rent on time (and that almost never gets reported to the credit agencies), and many renters have no credit score. Multiple studies have shown very little link between credit score and rent payment.


Bills not rent is what I as a rental property owner would like to know. Why are you ignoring that?


He didn't ignore. In fact, he directly addressed it by pointing out that how one pays bills doesn't correlate to how one pays rent. It was pretty clear in his explanation.

Okay. Said I was talking about bills, not rent. Said it was something I wanted to know.


You're the one doing the ignoring. As people have been making clear, what you may want to know as a landlord is not what you need to know in regards to tenants actually paying their rent. How they pay their bills is not indicative of how they pay their rent.


Not so. I understand there's no corelation. I want to know for personal reasons. It's a comfort zone for me. That's being glossed over. Why is that so hard to understand?
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2021 8:51 pm    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
jodeke wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
jodeke wrote:
If I were a property for rent owner I'd want to know if the person applying paid their bills on time. Owners have mortgages.


Except nothing on a credit report indicates whether someone will pay their rent. In fact, people will usually default on the things that show up on a credit report first in order to pay rent, utilities, and buy food. Plus, you can access previous landlords and get an exact answer to your question.

This is in a credit report. The gist of the post is in bold blue.


No it’s actually not. Many people with horrible credit pay their rent on time (and that almost never gets reported to the credit agencies), and many renters have no credit score. Multiple studies have shown very little link between credit score and rent payment.


Bills not rent is what I as a rental property owner would like to know. Why are you ignoring that?


He didn't ignore. In fact, he directly addressed it by pointing out that how one pays bills doesn't correlate to how one pays rent. It was pretty clear in his explanation.

Okay. Said I was talking about bills, not rent. Said it was something I wanted to know.


You're the one doing the ignoring. As people have been making clear, what you may want to know as a landlord is not what you need to know in regards to tenants actually paying their rent. How they pay their bills is not indicative of how they pay their rent.


Not so. I understand there's no corelation. I want to know for personal reasons. It's a comfort zone for me. That's being glossed over. Why is that so hard to understand?


That’s precisely why this change is needed.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2021 12:24 am    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
jodeke wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
jodeke wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
jodeke wrote:
If I were a property for rent owner I'd want to know if the person applying paid their bills on time. Owners have mortgages.


Except nothing on a credit report indicates whether someone will pay their rent. In fact, people will usually default on the things that show up on a credit report first in order to pay rent, utilities, and buy food. Plus, you can access previous landlords and get an exact answer to your question.

This is in a credit report. The gist of the post is in bold blue.


No it’s actually not. Many people with horrible credit pay their rent on time (and that almost never gets reported to the credit agencies), and many renters have no credit score. Multiple studies have shown very little link between credit score and rent payment.


Bills not rent is what I as a rental property owner would like to know. Why are you ignoring that?


He didn't ignore. In fact, he directly addressed it by pointing out that how one pays bills doesn't correlate to how one pays rent. It was pretty clear in his explanation.

Okay. Said I was talking about bills, not rent. Said it was something I wanted to know.


You're the one doing the ignoring. As people have been making clear, what you may want to know as a landlord is not what you need to know in regards to tenants actually paying their rent. How they pay their bills is not indicative of how they pay their rent.


Not so. I understand there's no correlation. I want to know for personal reasons. It's a comfort zone for me. That's being glossed over. Why is that so hard to understand?


That’s precisely why this change is needed.

I'm on board with that.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2021 2:02 pm    Post subject:

I think one thing to consider regarding the bills vs rent being late is that even if a person has paid their rent on time every month but has been late on other bills consistently or semi consistently then doesn’t that still make them higher risk compared to someone who pays their rent AND their bills on time?

If someone is late on their bills so they have money to make rent then doesn’t that raise a concern of how small the margin is before they can’t make rent?

But I do see how that is an inch away from classism so I see the problem with this. Would the alternative just be an interview and then a deposit, possibly a larger deposit with the absent need of a CC? That seems to present similar issues with discrimination; a lot of people can’t come up with first, last AND a deposit.

*I say all of this as a renter and someone who was nearly turned down for a place a few years ago due to credit “not being good enough” at the time. I’m just trying to think of a way that is less discriminatory towards the renter but also can reduce risk for owners. I suppose a rental history system should be implemented for this...?
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2021 2:07 pm    Post subject:

jonnybravo wrote:
It's embarrassing that as a former loan officer I don't know this but how were mortgages and auto loans done back then?


There was a time when someone couldn't afford to pay for something they wouldn't even try to buy it.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2021 2:16 pm    Post subject:

loslakersss wrote:
I think one thing to consider regarding the bills vs rent being late is that even if a person has paid their rent on time every month but has been late on other bills consistently or semi consistently then doesn’t that still make them higher risk compared to someone who pays their rent AND their bills on time?

If someone is late on their bills so they have money to make rent then doesn’t that raise a concern of how small the margin is before they can’t make rent?

But I do see how that is an inch away from classism so I see the problem with this. Would the alternative just be an interview and then a deposit, possibly a larger deposit with the absent need of a CC? That seems to present similar issues with discrimination; a lot of people can’t come up with first, last AND a deposit.

*I say all of this as a renter and someone who was nearly turned down for a place a few years ago due to credit “not being good enough” at the time. I’m just trying to think of a way that is less discriminatory towards the renter but also can reduce risk for owners. I suppose a rental history system should be implemented for this...?


There’s certainly a possibility, but generally speaking people default on rent when they literally don’t have enough money to pay it. This usually happens in some sort of catastrophe like a job loss. Allowing someone who is employed and has the required income and references to be made homeless because there is high demand and landlords can cherry pick is not decent or principled policy, and the job of government is precisely to save citizens from the situations where the market conflicts with that.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2021 4:00 pm    Post subject:

loslakersss wrote:
I think one thing to consider regarding the bills vs rent being late is that even if a person has paid their rent on time every month but has been late on other bills consistently or semi consistently then doesn’t that still make them higher risk compared to someone who pays their rent AND their bills on time?


Of course.
What I was saying is. Which is more preferable?
Renting to someone who will prioritize paying you rent first before paying other things, or renting to someone who will prioritize paying other things and doesn't mind paying rent late to do so.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2021 6:44 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
loslakersss wrote:
I think one thing to consider regarding the bills vs rent being late is that even if a person has paid their rent on time every month but has been late on other bills consistently or semi consistently then doesn’t that still make them higher risk compared to someone who pays their rent AND their bills on time?

If someone is late on their bills so they have money to make rent then doesn’t that raise a concern of how small the margin is before they can’t make rent?

But I do see how that is an inch away from classism so I see the problem with this. Would the alternative just be an interview and then a deposit, possibly a larger deposit with the absent need of a CC? That seems to present similar issues with discrimination; a lot of people can’t come up with first, last AND a deposit.

*I say all of this as a renter and someone who was nearly turned down for a place a few years ago due to credit “not being good enough” at the time. I’m just trying to think of a way that is less discriminatory towards the renter but also can reduce risk for owners. I suppose a rental history system should be implemented for this...?


There’s certainly a possibility, but generally speaking people default on rent when they literally don’t have enough money to pay it. This usually happens in some sort of catastrophe like a job loss. Allowing someone who is employed and has the required income and references to be made homeless because there is high demand and landlords can cherry pick is not decent or principled policy, and the job of government is precisely to save citizens from the situations where the market conflicts with that.


Gotcha. And I admit the possibility of the scenario I provided is extremely unlikely but I suppose I was just trying to understand/breakdown that line of thinking or rationale.

*For the record I’m in complete agreement with you on this topic
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loslakersss
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2021 6:48 pm    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
loslakersss wrote:
I think one thing to consider regarding the bills vs rent being late is that even if a person has paid their rent on time every month but has been late on other bills consistently or semi consistently then doesn’t that still make them higher risk compared to someone who pays their rent AND their bills on time?


Of course.
What I was saying is. Which is more preferable?
Renting to someone who will prioritize paying you rent first before paying other things, or renting to someone who will prioritize paying other things and doesn't mind paying rent late to do so.


Right. I hear ya, and I agree. I was just pointing out that there’s going to be some that would respond with “well I’d prefer they pay all their bills on time” which isn’t an option in your scenario. While some LL’s might actually be looking for a “perfect tenant” in order to minimize risk I think more often they use it as an excuse to turn people down/discriminate.
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audioaxes
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2021 7:22 pm    Post subject:

this will be a HUGE step back as far as not discriminating against someone. Credit profiles are not perfect but they are the best systematic way to rate everyone objectively. If you cant do that then landlords and property managers will only have their perceptions(biases) to go off of.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2021 8:56 pm    Post subject:

audioaxes wrote:
this will be a HUGE step back as far as not discriminating against someone. Credit profiles are not perfect but they are the best systematic way to rate everyone objectively. If you cant do that then landlords and property managers will only have their perceptions(biases) to go off of.


Doesn’t work that way. Seattle has other laws that cover that. And you have it backward, it’s the credit checks they use to discriminate, and they don’t rate everyone objectively. They rate people based on measures that favor the middle class, which is more white. The poor and minorities get screwed by the rating system, predatory lending, and the entire financial structure. Because it’s designed that way.
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