Tom Brady vs LeBron James
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Better career?
Tom Brady
38%
 38%  [ 8 ]
LeBron James
61%
 61%  [ 13 ]
Total Votes : 21

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angrypuppy
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 12:37 pm    Post subject:

ribeye wrote:
angrypuppy wrote:
ribeye wrote:
Ribbits:

Brady's passer rating, post season, 89.5 -- only 15th best all time. The league average passer rating during the years he played is 83.01, so the differential, 6.41, is not that much beyond average. He only once led the league in post season QB rating. His Super Bowl passer rating of 95.6 is out of the top ten, with a differential of 13.59. His regular season, 97.3, is 7th best, with a differential to the league of 14.29. As a comparison, Joe Montana's ratings are 92.3, regular; 95.6, post; and 127.8, SB--the later not only in the top ten, but #1. But, and this is an important distinction, the average QB rating for the years Montana played is 72.41, so the differential is 19.89, regular; 23.19, post; and freeking 55.39, SB!

LeBron's career playoff PER is 28.41, just barely behind Jordan, 28.6 (Miken, 28.51, does not have complete data). He lead the league 5 times in post season PER. Considering that an average PER is supposed to be 15, his differential is beyond exceptional. For those who don't like PER, how about Win shares per 48 minutes. LeBron, .2454, is just barely behind Jordan .2543.



I always find simple stats useful for baseball, less so for other sports. In baseball a pitcher doesn't change his fastball, curve, slider, change, whatever from team to team, just as a hitter doesn't change his swing when wearing a new jersey. Simple stats are more easily translatable to production, and can correlate to wins.

What are you not tracking? Something akin to Shapley Values from game theory, and that is what is the value that someone contributes to an entire team. Montana was outstanding, but he also benefited from: A. Being a member of substantially the same team year in, year out (pre salary cap era), and B. The introduction of the horizontal game (West Coast Offense) which baffled both defensive coordinators and head coaches. Walsh was a true innovator, he made Stanford relevant within the Pac 10, and then brought over his system to vertical offensive oriented NFL. I'm not knocking Montana, I was surprised that he wasn't a first round pick, and somewhat astounded that the credit was going to uber-bust Ken MacAfee at Notre Dame.

Ditto with basketball. You only have one ball, trying to extend simple stats is misleading when adding a player to a team or playing unit. Part of it is willingness to share, floor spacing, complimentary skills, chemistry and defense, and part of it is the intangible of leadership. A simple basketball stat cannot tell you that, and on that note, QB ratings are an artificial composite stat and tend to be misleading.

Montana would have a high Shapley Value. His teammates trusted him and his leadership. Brady would have the same value, not only did the teammates change frequently, he even changed franchises and achieved the deep playoff run result. Tampa Bay teammates talk openly about how the culture dramatically changed once Brady entered that locker room.

Brady has more championships and a better postseason record than Montana, like any attempt to compare players from different eras, any judgement is highly subjective. And all too often, stats do not translate well between eras let alone different sports. As a matter of fact, The Wall Street Journal once ran an article proving that using ERA differential, Greg Maddox was far superior to Sandy Koufax. Simple stats can be used to fabricate a desired conclusion. Results speak for themselves.


Brady's teams have more championships and a better postseason record than Montana's.

Simply put, I place more value on the entire team than do you.

As for Maddox v Koufax, Maddox has a 132 ERA+ to Koufax's 131. Considering the entirety of their careers, I rank him higher, though only marginal so.



Not at all, you've fallen into the trap of oversimplifying statistics, which is exactly my point.

The statistician used average ERAs from the two different eras, and the ERAs of the top pitchers from each of the two eras, and used both differentials (Koufax vs. the rest of MLB in his era, Koufax vs. top pitchers in his era) and (Maddox vs. the rest of MLB in his era, Maddox vs. the top pitchers in his era). The ERA differential wasn't close, Maddox was vastly superior.

And I guess you didn't read what I was stating about team contribution. No matter, you breezed right by it.

Is it true? No, different eras and different situations can lead to very misleading conclusions. The story is that stats can be very misleading, and are frequently used to either intentionally for sophistry, or used superficially to construct a misleading result.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 1:13 pm    Post subject:

angrypuppy wrote:
ribeye wrote:
angrypuppy wrote:
ribeye wrote:
Ribbits:

Brady's passer rating, post season, 89.5 -- only 15th best all time. The league average passer rating during the years he played is 83.01, so the differential, 6.41, is not that much beyond average. He only once led the league in post season QB rating. His Super Bowl passer rating of 95.6 is out of the top ten, with a differential of 13.59. His regular season, 97.3, is 7th best, with a differential to the league of 14.29. As a comparison, Joe Montana's ratings are 92.3, regular; 95.6, post; and 127.8, SB--the later not only in the top ten, but #1. But, and this is an important distinction, the average QB rating for the years Montana played is 72.41, so the differential is 19.89, regular; 23.19, post; and freeking 55.39, SB!

LeBron's career playoff PER is 28.41, just barely behind Jordan, 28.6 (Miken, 28.51, does not have complete data). He lead the league 5 times in post season PER. Considering that an average PER is supposed to be 15, his differential is beyond exceptional. For those who don't like PER, how about Win shares per 48 minutes. LeBron, .2454, is just barely behind Jordan .2543.



I always find simple stats useful for baseball, less so for other sports. In baseball a pitcher doesn't change his fastball, curve, slider, change, whatever from team to team, just as a hitter doesn't change his swing when wearing a new jersey. Simple stats are more easily translatable to production, and can correlate to wins.

What are you not tracking? Something akin to Shapley Values from game theory, and that is what is the value that someone contributes to an entire team. Montana was outstanding, but he also benefited from: A. Being a member of substantially the same team year in, year out (pre salary cap era), and B. The introduction of the horizontal game (West Coast Offense) which baffled both defensive coordinators and head coaches. Walsh was a true innovator, he made Stanford relevant within the Pac 10, and then brought over his system to vertical offensive oriented NFL. I'm not knocking Montana, I was surprised that he wasn't a first round pick, and somewhat astounded that the credit was going to uber-bust Ken MacAfee at Notre Dame.

Ditto with basketball. You only have one ball, trying to extend simple stats is misleading when adding a player to a team or playing unit. Part of it is willingness to share, floor spacing, complimentary skills, chemistry and defense, and part of it is the intangible of leadership. A simple basketball stat cannot tell you that, and on that note, QB ratings are an artificial composite stat and tend to be misleading.

Montana would have a high Shapley Value. His teammates trusted him and his leadership. Brady would have the same value, not only did the teammates change frequently, he even changed franchises and achieved the deep playoff run result. Tampa Bay teammates talk openly about how the culture dramatically changed once Brady entered that locker room.

Brady has more championships and a better postseason record than Montana, like any attempt to compare players from different eras, any judgement is highly subjective. And all too often, stats do not translate well between eras let alone different sports. As a matter of fact, The Wall Street Journal once ran an article proving that using ERA differential, Greg Maddox was far superior to Sandy Koufax. Simple stats can be used to fabricate a desired conclusion. Results speak for themselves.


Brady's teams have more championships and a better postseason record than Montana's.

Simply put, I place more value on the entire team than do you.

As for Maddox v Koufax, Maddox has a 132 ERA+ to Koufax's 131. Considering the entirety of their careers, I rank him higher, though only marginal so.



Not at all, you've fallen into the trap of oversimplifying statistics, which is exactly my point.

The statistician used average ERAs from the two different eras, and the ERAs of the top pitchers from each of the two eras, and used both differentials (Koufax vs. the rest of MLB in his era, Koufax vs. top pitchers in his era) and (Maddox vs. the rest of MLB in his era, Maddox vs. the top pitchers in his era). The ERA differential wasn't close, Maddox was vastly superior.

And I guess you didn't read what I was stating about team contribution. No matter, you breezed right by it.

Is it true? No, different eras and different situations can lead to very misleading conclusions. The story is that stats can be very misleading, and are frequently used to either intentionally for sophistry, or used superficially to construct a misleading result.


What you are talking about is ERA+ or as Fan Graphs does it, ERA-.

Of course stats can be misleading, but they can be helpful when you fully understand them. That is why trying to simply compare Otto Graham with a passer rating of 86.6, to Tom Brady at 93.3, what with all the changes over time, will tell you little. If you look at how they did compared to others of their day, when the years Graham played the rating was 53.48 for all quarterbacks, compared to Brady's, 83.01, you get a better picture.

If all that matters is winning, and then presuming that the QB gets the lion's share of the credit, then Otto Graham ought to be the GOAT with 7 championships (and 161 wins vs 17 loses), and the second best basketball player is Sam Jones, followed by Tommy Heinsohn, KC Jones, Tom Sanders, Jon Havlicek, Jim Loscutoff, Frank Ramsey and Robert Horry. I'm not saying this is your belief anymore than I'm saying that stats are the end all. I did not, nor do I fall into some kind of trap of oversimplifying statistics to some end. They are merely one tool to use as part of the analysis.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 1:31 pm    Post subject:

ribeye wrote:
angrypuppy wrote:
ribeye wrote:
angrypuppy wrote:
ribeye wrote:
Ribbits:

Brady's passer rating, post season, 89.5 -- only 15th best all time. The league average passer rating during the years he played is 83.01, so the differential, 6.41, is not that much beyond average. He only once led the league in post season QB rating. His Super Bowl passer rating of 95.6 is out of the top ten, with a differential of 13.59. His regular season, 97.3, is 7th best, with a differential to the league of 14.29. As a comparison, Joe Montana's ratings are 92.3, regular; 95.6, post; and 127.8, SB--the later not only in the top ten, but #1. But, and this is an important distinction, the average QB rating for the years Montana played is 72.41, so the differential is 19.89, regular; 23.19, post; and freeking 55.39, SB!

LeBron's career playoff PER is 28.41, just barely behind Jordan, 28.6 (Miken, 28.51, does not have complete data). He lead the league 5 times in post season PER. Considering that an average PER is supposed to be 15, his differential is beyond exceptional. For those who don't like PER, how about Win shares per 48 minutes. LeBron, .2454, is just barely behind Jordan .2543.



I always find simple stats useful for baseball, less so for other sports. In baseball a pitcher doesn't change his fastball, curve, slider, change, whatever from team to team, just as a hitter doesn't change his swing when wearing a new jersey. Simple stats are more easily translatable to production, and can correlate to wins.

What are you not tracking? Something akin to Shapley Values from game theory, and that is what is the value that someone contributes to an entire team. Montana was outstanding, but he also benefited from: A. Being a member of substantially the same team year in, year out (pre salary cap era), and B. The introduction of the horizontal game (West Coast Offense) which baffled both defensive coordinators and head coaches. Walsh was a true innovator, he made Stanford relevant within the Pac 10, and then brought over his system to vertical offensive oriented NFL. I'm not knocking Montana, I was surprised that he wasn't a first round pick, and somewhat astounded that the credit was going to uber-bust Ken MacAfee at Notre Dame.

Ditto with basketball. You only have one ball, trying to extend simple stats is misleading when adding a player to a team or playing unit. Part of it is willingness to share, floor spacing, complimentary skills, chemistry and defense, and part of it is the intangible of leadership. A simple basketball stat cannot tell you that, and on that note, QB ratings are an artificial composite stat and tend to be misleading.

Montana would have a high Shapley Value. His teammates trusted him and his leadership. Brady would have the same value, not only did the teammates change frequently, he even changed franchises and achieved the deep playoff run result. Tampa Bay teammates talk openly about how the culture dramatically changed once Brady entered that locker room.

Brady has more championships and a better postseason record than Montana, like any attempt to compare players from different eras, any judgement is highly subjective. And all too often, stats do not translate well between eras let alone different sports. As a matter of fact, The Wall Street Journal once ran an article proving that using ERA differential, Greg Maddox was far superior to Sandy Koufax. Simple stats can be used to fabricate a desired conclusion. Results speak for themselves.


Brady's teams have more championships and a better postseason record than Montana's.

Simply put, I place more value on the entire team than do you.

As for Maddox v Koufax, Maddox has a 132 ERA+ to Koufax's 131. Considering the entirety of their careers, I rank him higher, though only marginal so.



Not at all, you've fallen into the trap of oversimplifying statistics, which is exactly my point.

The statistician used average ERAs from the two different eras, and the ERAs of the top pitchers from each of the two eras, and used both differentials (Koufax vs. the rest of MLB in his era, Koufax vs. top pitchers in his era) and (Maddox vs. the rest of MLB in his era, Maddox vs. the top pitchers in his era). The ERA differential wasn't close, Maddox was vastly superior.

And I guess you didn't read what I was stating about team contribution. No matter, you breezed right by it.

Is it true? No, different eras and different situations can lead to very misleading conclusions. The story is that stats can be very misleading, and are frequently used to either intentionally for sophistry, or used superficially to construct a misleading result.


What you are talking about is ERA+ or as Fan Graphs does it, ERA-.

Of course stats can be misleading, but they can be helpful when you fully understand them. That is why trying to simply compare Otto Graham with a passer rating of 86.6, to Tom Brady at 93.3, what with all the changes over time, will tell you little. If you look at how they did compared to others of their day, when the years Graham played the rating was 53.48 for all quarterbacks, compared to Brady's, 83.01, you get a better picture.

If all that matters is winning, and then presuming that the QB gets the lion's share of the credit, then Otto Graham ought to be the GOAT with 7 championships, and the second best basketball player is Sam Jones, followed by Tommy Heinsohn, KC Jones, Tom Sanders, Jon Havlicek, Jim Loscutoff, Frank Ramsey and Robert Horry. I'm not saying this is your belief anymore than I'm saying that stats are the end all. I did not, nor do I fall into some kind of trap of oversimplifying statistics to some end. They are merely one tool to use as part of the analysis.




The starting QB is meaningless, just one of 54 guys on the roster. I'm glad you can look up stats without a counter. You win.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 2:42 pm    Post subject:

Brady has been a professional for 22 years, James 17. Tom has 6 Lombardi's, LeBron 4 Larry O'Briens'. No one, I repeat, No One is close to Tom in the ultimate goal, winning the championship trophy. LeBron has 4 rings. So many players have 4 or more LINK Let's answer the post question WHO HAS THE BETTER CAREER? Put bias aside, answer the question. Again, I put Tom above LeBron (For Now)
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Last edited by jodeke on Fri Jan 29, 2021 8:12 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 2:55 pm    Post subject:

jodeke wrote:
Brady has been a professional for 22 years, James 17. Tom has 6 Lombardi's, LeBron 4 Larry O'Briens'. No one, I repeat, No One is close to Tom in the ultimate goal, winning the championship trophy. LeBron has 4 rings. So many players have 4 or more LINK Let's answer the post question WHO HAS THE BETTER CAREER? Put bias aside, answer the question. Again, I put Tom above Tom (For Now)


Actually, I put Tom below Tom . . . but that is just me
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 3:14 pm    Post subject:

ribeye wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Brady has been a professional for 22 years, James 17. Tom has 6 Lombardi's, LeBron 4 Larry O'Briens'. No one, I repeat, No One is close to Tom in the ultimate goal, winning the championship trophy. LeBron has 4 rings. So many players have 4 or more LINK Let's answer the post question WHO HAS THE BETTER CAREER? Put bias aside, answer the question. Again, I put Tom above LeBron (For Now)


Actually, I put Tom below Tom . . . but that is just me

Fixed Typo To clarify no one close to Tom, I mean in the game of football.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 7:03 pm    Post subject:

Bump.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 7:06 pm    Post subject:

Basketball Fan wrote:
This is a debate? I like to know who actually thinks LeBron's career is better....

Regardless you have a better debate if you were to ask who I hate more because its a toss up question for me.


his fans, mostly. LOL

no objective person would answer lebron
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 7:06 pm    Post subject:

Dude I went from viewing this guy as a little talented flukely pretty boy who somehow got lucky in beating my Raiders and the Rams in 2001 to the greatest athlete I have ever seen.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 7:43 pm    Post subject:

1995Lakers wrote:
Dude I went from viewing this guy as a little talented flukely pretty boy who somehow got lucky in beating my Raiders and the Rams in 2001 to the greatest athlete I have ever seen.

Not the greatest athlete but the greatest competitor.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 8:17 pm    Post subject:

Holding your last two super Bowl opponents to a combined 12 points. Truly Goat stuff.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 07, 2021 11:01 pm    Post subject:

^ I’d give him more credit in this game than the Rams SB. He threw 3 first half touchdowns which forced the Chiefs to throw more, allowing the defense to get after Mahomes. If the Bucs only had 10 points then KC could’ve ran more which might have opened up the passing, but Bucs knew they’d be passing 90% of the time in the second half due to the score.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2021 2:51 am    Post subject:

7 rings for a QB is unreal, Brady has more rings than any team in the NFL has, that’s crazy
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2021 4:12 am    Post subject:

The one glaring thing these two legends have in common is that they're both tremendous leaders among men.

The one common theme I kept hearing from Brady's teammates in the post-SB interviews is how TB kept texting the team with words of wisdom, clarity, and schemes. All things on how to beat KC. That's just how he operates. He wants to win so badly and brings his teammates along for the ride.

LBJ is very similar. Coordinating team dinners and functions to promote camaraderie and chemistry has always been his thing. He empowers his teammates just like Brady.

This is adding to the fact that they're both genuinely great guys. Solid and selfless human beings. That's why they're both winners....on and off the field/court.

LBJ is a genetic freak of nature - probably could've been great in any sport he so chooses.

Brady's athleticism has always been pedestrian. His GOAT status has very little to do below the neck and everything between the ears. He did it in a brutal sport dominated by freak athletes. He's won 7 rings in one and done format and now without Belii. As an absolute outsider, I am astounded by his resume.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:08 am    Post subject:

Bron left Cleveland to the other conference, won and cavs became lottery

Brady just did the same

The question should be where u put belichick
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2021 9:47 am    Post subject:

1995Lakers wrote:
Dude I went from viewing this guy as a little talented flukely pretty boy who somehow got lucky in beating my Raiders and the Rams in 2001 to the greatest athlete I have ever seen.


While I never thought he was untalented, I always held a vendetta against him because I felt the entirety of his career was built on that stupid tuck rule (honestly, it's interesting to think the trajectory his career could've gone if that was correctly called a fumble...and yes it was a freakin' fumble).

I couldn't stand him and wanted him to lose all the time (well, unless they were playing the Broncos).

But now? Man, respect. The guy is 43, looks like he's 25 and he's just killing it without any indication of slowing down.

I hope he plays until he's 50.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:14 am    Post subject:

^Even Brady admitted that he was pissed off because he thought he fumbled the ball and lost the game. Later his kicker made two difficult kicks in the snow, and another to win the Super Bowl.

I do think he had a mental advantage from winning it so quickly, like Montana. Nobody ever questioned if he could win a ring after that. Especially when he was in the playoffs two years later and had proven himself by then.

He didn’t get the media and fans constantly questioning him and calling him a choker. Manning, Lebron, Shaq and even Kobe received that type of treatment. I do think it can affect athletes mentally if they constantly have the media questioning their play in the clutch and calling them choker. Even teammates can buy into that talk and trust you less, especially when people can point to previous playoff games the athlete came up short in.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:01 am    Post subject:

Brady didn't even win any rings between ages 28 and 36. Imagine if he had won 2-3 during that timeframe. Could have had 10 rings.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:03 am    Post subject:

EchoZulu wrote:
The one glaring thing these two legends have in common is that they're both tremendous leaders among men.

The one common theme I kept hearing from Brady's teammates in the post-SB interviews is how TB kept texting the team with words of wisdom, clarity, and schemes. All things on how to beat KC. That's just how he operates. He wants to win so badly and brings his teammates along for the ride.

LBJ is very similar. Coordinating team dinners and functions to promote camaraderie and chemistry has always been his thing. He empowers his teammates just like Brady.

This is adding to the fact that they're both genuinely great guys. Solid and selfless human beings. That's why they're both winners....on and off the field/court.

LBJ is a genetic freak of nature - probably could've been great in any sport he so chooses.

Brady's athleticism has always been pedestrian. His GOAT status has very little to do below the neck and everything between the ears. He did it in a brutal sport dominated by freak athletes. He's won 7 rings in one and done format and now without Belii. As an absolute outsider, I am astounded by his resume.


LeBron is also a basketball genius. Freak athleticism in Karl Malone's body + elite court vision + elite ball handling. Pretty pedestrian shooting for most of his career.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:12 am    Post subject:

Steve007 wrote:
^Even Brady admitted that he was pissed off because he thought he fumbled the ball and lost the game. Later his kicker made two difficult kicks in the snow, and another to win the Super Bowl.

I do think he had a mental advantage from winning it so quickly, like Montana. Nobody ever questioned if he could win a ring after that. Especially when he was in the playoffs two years later and had proven himself by then.

He didn’t get the media and fans constantly questioning him and calling him a choker. Manning, Lebron, Shaq and even Kobe received that type of treatment. I do think it can affect athletes mentally if they constantly have the media questioning their play in the clutch and calling them choker. Even teammates can buy into that talk and trust you less, especially when people can point to previous playoff games the athlete came up short in.


Steve, but Brady separated himself from those guys at a young age by proving that he had more poise than all of them did when they were young. Manning's chokings are almost Kershaw-esque...no need to talk about him. Bron first half of his career was a mental midget who was visibly intimidated by Kobe. Shaquille didnt take his Orlando years seriously and hence, the sweep at the hands of the Rockets - the Bulls sweep was just Chicago so much more superior. Kobe never and I mean never had the poise Brady had. Kobe improved drastically n this regard but when it came to the biggest moment that he wasnt used to again (game 7 vs Boston), that same lack of poise that you saw vs Utah reared its ugly head again. Brady's poise was evident from his first playoff run and you see this in guys that are the best playoff performers like Koufax, Schilling, Jordan and Brady....its that they ALWAYS displayed poise even from the very beginning. They didnt need to learn into it.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:27 am    Post subject:

panamaniac wrote:
Holding your last two super Bowl opponents to a combined 12 points. Truly Goat stuff.






We get it, you hate Brady.

The New England game plan in the 2019 Super Bowl was to stymie Goff, and not gift the Rams field position. The reasoning is that Belichick didn't think that the Rams offense had the ability to sustain long drives across the field. Contrast that with the AFC Championship game two weeks prior. They knew KC was explosive, the key was to take chances and put points on the board. Result: New England 37, KC 31. You modify your game to fit the opposition.

Tampa Bay did a great job on defense, but the defense didn't score 31 points on KC. Forcing KC to play catch-up only made things worse for Mahomes and Reid, which played further into Bowle's defensive game plan.

But hey, if you want to talk football, try again.


Last edited by angrypuppy on Mon Feb 08, 2021 12:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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CandyCanes
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2021 12:33 pm    Post subject:

1995Lakers wrote:
Steve007 wrote:
^Even Brady admitted that he was pissed off because he thought he fumbled the ball and lost the game. Later his kicker made two difficult kicks in the snow, and another to win the Super Bowl.

I do think he had a mental advantage from winning it so quickly, like Montana. Nobody ever questioned if he could win a ring after that. Especially when he was in the playoffs two years later and had proven himself by then.

He didn’t get the media and fans constantly questioning him and calling him a choker. Manning, Lebron, Shaq and even Kobe received that type of treatment. I do think it can affect athletes mentally if they constantly have the media questioning their play in the clutch and calling them choker. Even teammates can buy into that talk and trust you less, especially when people can point to previous playoff games the athlete came up short in.


Steve, but Brady separated himself from those guys at a young age by proving that he had more poise than all of them did when they were young. Manning's chokings are almost Kershaw-esque...no need to talk about him. Bron first half of his career was a mental midget who was visibly intimidated by Kobe. Shaquille didnt take his Orlando years seriously and hence, the sweep at the hands of the Rockets - the Bulls sweep was just Chicago so much more superior. Kobe never and I mean never had the poise Brady had. Kobe improved drastically n this regard but when it came to the biggest moment that he wasnt used to again (game 7 vs Boston), that same lack of poise that you saw vs Utah reared its ugly head again. Brady's poise was evident from his first playoff run and you see this in guys that are the best playoff performers like Koufax, Schilling, Jordan and Brady....its that they ALWAYS displayed poise even from the very beginning. They didnt need to learn into it.


Why is Manning viewed as a choker with two rings and one SuperBowl MVP? Two rings is the same number as Olajuwon and more than Dirk, KG, etc.
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1995Lakers
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2021 12:55 pm    Post subject:

CandyCanes wrote:
1995Lakers wrote:
Steve007 wrote:
^Even Brady admitted that he was pissed off because he thought he fumbled the ball and lost the game. Later his kicker made two difficult kicks in the snow, and another to win the Super Bowl.

I do think he had a mental advantage from winning it so quickly, like Montana. Nobody ever questioned if he could win a ring after that. Especially when he was in the playoffs two years later and had proven himself by then.

He didn’t get the media and fans constantly questioning him and calling him a choker. Manning, Lebron, Shaq and even Kobe received that type of treatment. I do think it can affect athletes mentally if they constantly have the media questioning their play in the clutch and calling them choker. Even teammates can buy into that talk and trust you less, especially when people can point to previous playoff games the athlete came up short in.


Steve, but Brady separated himself from those guys at a young age by proving that he had more poise than all of them did when they were young. Manning's chokings are almost Kershaw-esque...no need to talk about him. Bron first half of his career was a mental midget who was visibly intimidated by Kobe. Shaquille didnt take his Orlando years seriously and hence, the sweep at the hands of the Rockets - the Bulls sweep was just Chicago so much more superior. Kobe never and I mean never had the poise Brady had. Kobe improved drastically n this regard but when it came to the biggest moment that he wasnt used to again (game 7 vs Boston), that same lack of poise that you saw vs Utah reared its ugly head again. Brady's poise was evident from his first playoff run and you see this in guys that are the best playoff performers like Koufax, Schilling, Jordan and Brady....its that they ALWAYS displayed poise even from the very beginning. They didnt need to learn into it.


Why is Manning viewed as a choker with two rings and one SuperBowl MVP? Two rings is the same number as Olajuwon and more than Dirk, KG, etc.


Manning has never shown me the ability to rise above a true challenge and lead his team to greatness when the chips were stacked against him throughout his entire career. When something start to go wrong, its over for him. Dirk and KG WERE viewed as chokers throughout their careers. Dirk when he was punked by GSW in 2007/losing finals to Heat in 2006 and KG throughout his entire time in Minnesota as the guy who couldnt elevate his level of play in the playoffs or hit the big shot. Olajuwon is a different story. Olajuwon was always good in the playoffs, his teams just were not good enough. There is a difference. Its similar to Michael's early Bulls being a (bleep) and getting swept but Michael himself was a rockstar in the playoffs. There was never any mental weakness with Hakeem even in his early days when he played the Lakers in 1986.

Would we say Kershaw is on the same level of clutchness as Justin Turner because they both have only 1 ring??? Hell no. JT is clutch as hell as he has shown year in and year out. Kershaw is Kershaw whose Game 1 2009 NLCS start vs Cole Hamels was the first real sign that he would be the choker he is to come.
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loslakersss
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2021 3:24 pm    Post subject:

Manning came back against the patriots in the AFC CG when they were down like 20 points. He did it again a season or 2 later and was so dominant during the comeback that Belichick decided to go for it on 4th down from his own 30.

Manning, like Lebron and Kershaw, has had his struggles for sure. But people - and the media - like to focus on that and find any evidence to support the bias they have. None of them are nearly as bad as their reputation suggests but many made up their mind long ago.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2021 6:57 pm    Post subject:

1995Lakers wrote:
Steve007 wrote:
^Even Brady admitted that he was pissed off because he thought he fumbled the ball and lost the game. Later his kicker made two difficult kicks in the snow, and another to win the Super Bowl.

I do think he had a mental advantage from winning it so quickly, like Montana. Nobody ever questioned if he could win a ring after that. Especially when he was in the playoffs two years later and had proven himself by then.

He didn’t get the media and fans constantly questioning him and calling him a choker. Manning, Lebron, Shaq and even Kobe received that type of treatment. I do think it can affect athletes mentally if they constantly have the media questioning their play in the clutch and calling them choker. Even teammates can buy into that talk and trust you less, especially when people can point to previous playoff games the athlete came up short in.


Steve, but Brady separated himself from those guys at a young age by proving that he had more poise than all of them did when they were young. Manning's chokings are almost Kershaw-esque...no need to talk about him. Bron first half of his career was a mental midget who was visibly intimidated by Kobe. Shaquille didnt take his Orlando years seriously and hence, the sweep at the hands of the Rockets - the Bulls sweep was just Chicago so much more superior. Kobe never and I mean never had the poise Brady had. Kobe improved drastically n this regard but when it came to the biggest moment that he wasnt used to again (game 7 vs Boston), that same lack of poise that you saw vs Utah reared its ugly head again. Brady's poise was evident from his first playoff run and you see this in guys that are the best playoff performers like Koufax, Schilling, Jordan and Brady....its that they ALWAYS displayed poise even from the very beginning. They didnt need to learn into it.


It was easy for Brady to have poise when he was younger because not much was asked of him. He was told to just manage the game and that was enough when backed up by a great defense. It was only later in his career after he won rings as a game manager that he was asked to play to a lot more. And Brady teammates tended to play well, just like his teammates outplayed Mahomes teammates by a huge margin.

Manning had a (bleep) defense and was forced to try and score at least 30 a game. He couldn’t be cautious, try to make the easy, safe throws and try to win 20-10 or 17-3.

Manning, Kershaw, Shaq, Kobe-these guys had to deal with much higher expectations from the start and that increases pressure. Brady in his first season was basically an underdog for most of the playoffs. All he had to do was show up and even if he lost, he lived up to expectations. If he completed a one yard pass he was exceeding expectations-nobody was going to give him much (bleep) for losing because he wasn’t even supposed to be there.

I do think there is some truth to what you’re saying though. However, notice that the biggest LeBron choke of all was in the series against Dallas. There was a ton of pressure and expectations with that Miami team that year. Far more than Brady faced earlier in his career. Probably the most pressure Brady faced in the Super Bowl was after the undefeated season. That was his best team and they played their worst game by far and lost.
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