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BEazy
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 Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:25 am Post subject: |
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| ZeroDark30_ wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | ScHoolBoy B wrote: | | Turnover machine and doesn't make his teammates better. |
Or maybe his teammates just had a terrible game last night.
He's not a pass first point guard and I think we all know it. He won't be when LBJ/AD are back. What he is great at is attacking from the perimeter. Look at his scoring output recently (he was well on a 30+ point pace in that Nets game too).
You were pretty quiet about the Nets game though. Keep that same energy. |
I notice the guys who change depending on his play. You won’t get that from me. He’ll have good games, I’ll acknowledge them and still want us to move on from him in the offseason or in a sign and trade. |
Yall buggin man. I’ve always been consistent of my judgement on Schroder. You guys are probably thinking about somebody else, because I’ve NEVER changed my stance on Schroder and ultimately want him shipped out from the team. I don’t like his style of play or his attitude.... |
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pio2u
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:57 am Post subject: |
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| ScHoolBoy B wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | ScHoolBoy B wrote: | | Turnover machine and doesn't make his teammates better. |
Or maybe his teammates just had a terrible game last night.
He's not a pass first point guard and I think we all know it. He won't be when LBJ/AD are back. What he is great at is attacking from the perimeter. Look at his scoring output recently (he was well on a 30+ point pace in that Nets game too).
You were pretty quiet about the Nets game though. Keep that same energy. |
Uhhh no I wasn’t? I was calling Dennis out for running his mouth and letting his teammates down. I don’t know what you’re talking about. I was keeping that same energy...looks like you came down to earth and finally admit that he’s turnover machine. How come you’re not keeping your same energy? Smh... |
LOL. I've always come out against his turnovers. So you were mad he was keeping apace with Kyrie in the Nets game? LOL.
I'm actually more bullish on Dennis being a more effective player when LBJ/AD come back. I think the team finally has an understanding of what he's good/bad at.
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lakerican
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| Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:35 am Post subject: |
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| He, our starting lineup had 20 turnovers... |
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BadGuy
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| Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:43 am Post subject: |
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| Are we taking shots at Dennis because he did not accept the contract extension offer from the Lakers or because we legitimately think he is not a good basketball player? |
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BEazy
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| Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:00 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | ScHoolBoy B wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | ScHoolBoy B wrote: | | Turnover machine and doesn't make his teammates better. |
Or maybe his teammates just had a terrible game last night.
He's not a pass first point guard and I think we all know it. He won't be when LBJ/AD are back. What he is great at is attacking from the perimeter. Look at his scoring output recently (he was well on a 30+ point pace in that Nets game too).
You were pretty quiet about the Nets game though. Keep that same energy. |
Uhhh no I wasn’t? I was calling Dennis out for running his mouth and letting his teammates down. I don’t know what you’re talking about. I was keeping that same energy...looks like you came down to earth and finally admit that he’s turnover machine. How come you’re not keeping your same energy? Smh... |
LOL. I've always come out against his turnovers. So you were mad he was keeping apace with Kyrie in the Nets game? LOL.
I'm actually more bullish on Dennis being a more effective player when LBJ/AD come back. I think the team finally has an understanding of what he's good/bad at. |
Bro, I have no idea how you came to that conclusion. Like seriously, out of all that I typed, I have absolutely no idea how you came to that conclusion. I didn't even mention the scoring or Kyrie, but apparently I'm upset over Schroder keeping up with Kyrie.... Unbelievable...smh... |
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kikanga
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| Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:02 am Post subject: |
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| BadGuy wrote: | | Are we taking shots at Dennis because he did not accept the contract extension offer from the Lakers or because we legitimately think he is not a good basketball player? |
I can only speak for myself. It's about value. Unless you are a supermax superstar or a barely in the league scrub, price/value has to be factored in with each players performance.
And around 25M per year for Schroeder isn't great resource allocation for a team with championship aspirations. The last two 6MOY winners were making less than 10 M a year. Less than 1/2 what Schroeder wants. And 6MOY is the level of player Schro is.
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BadGuy
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| Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:18 am Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | BadGuy wrote: | | Are we taking shots at Dennis because he did not accept the contract extension offer from the Lakers or because we legitimately think he is not a good basketball player? |
I can only speak for myself. It's about value. Unless you are a supermax superstar or a barely in the league scrub, price/value has to be factored in with each players performance.
And around 25M per year for Schroeder isn't great resource allocation for a team with championship aspirations. The last two 6MOY winners were making less than 10 M a year. Less than 1/2 what Schroeder wants. And 6MOY is the level of player Schro is. |
I get your point about value, but i do not see DS ever accepting less salary than guys like Kuz and KCP. Maybe, i'm biased, but i see Schroder as better than any of the recent 6MOY winners (other than Harden, of course). With Trez, i think he took a paycut just to screw over the Clippers, and i think he's gonna get paid more too (by us or elsewhere). |
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jonnybravo
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| Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:40 am Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | BadGuy wrote: | | Are we taking shots at Dennis because he did not accept the contract extension offer from the Lakers or because we legitimately think he is not a good basketball player? |
I can only speak for myself. It's about value. Unless you are a supermax superstar or a barely in the league scrub, price/value has to be factored in with each players performance.
And around 25M per year for Schroeder isn't great resource allocation for a team with championship aspirations. The last two 6MOY winners were making less than 10 M a year. Less than 1/2 what Schroeder wants. And 6MOY is the level of player Schro is. |
The issue we're facing is that we're already capped out without Schroeder. It's either overpay to keep him, let him walk for nothing or a S/T (if allowed). Paying him precisely what we feel he's worth is out the window.
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kikanga
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| Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:41 am Post subject: |
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| BadGuy wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | BadGuy wrote: | | Are we taking shots at Dennis because he did not accept the contract extension offer from the Lakers or because we legitimately think he is not a good basketball player? |
I can only speak for myself. It's about value. Unless you are a supermax superstar or a barely in the league scrub, price/value has to be factored in with each players performance.
And around 25M per year for Schroeder isn't great resource allocation for a team with championship aspirations. The last two 6MOY winners were making less than 10 M a year. Less than 1/2 what Schroeder wants. And 6MOY is the level of player Schro is. |
I get your point about value, but i do not see DS ever accepting less salary than guys like Kuz and KCP. Maybe, i'm biased, but i see Schroder as better than any of the recent 6MOY winners (other than Harden, of course). With Trez, i think he took a paycut just to screw over the Clippers, and i think he's gonna get paid more too (by us or elsewhere). |
We'll see come playoff time. If he can guard multiple positions off a switch and hit open catch and shoot 3 opportunities. He will prove you right. It's just tough because at the moment, he worse than most of the playoff PGs we'll meet. And paying around 25 M for that isn't a great idea. But he's young. He may elevate to a level we haven't seen before from him.
FWIW, I don't think he's worth less than KCP and Kuz. But around that price (13M a year) seems about right. I see him as a Dinwiddie (pre-injury) level player. Who is getting paid in that price range as well.
Hey if we were a rebuilding team or a small market team who has to pay a premium for players. I'd get the 25ish M price tag. I could see someone paying him what he wants this offseason. But given our goals (championships), I don't know if that's the best use of $ for us.
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activeverb
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| Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | BadGuy wrote: | | Are we taking shots at Dennis because he did not accept the contract extension offer from the Lakers or because we legitimately think he is not a good basketball player? |
I can only speak for myself. It's about value. Unless you are a supermax superstar or a barely in the league scrub, price/value has to be factored in with each players performance.
And around 25M per year for Schroeder isn't great resource allocation for a team with championship aspirations. The last two 6MOY winners were making less than 10 M a year. Less than 1/2 what Schroeder wants. And 6MOY is the level of player Schro is. |
What you're saying is true to an extent, but you can't judge players salaries in a vacuum.
DS is a lower tier point starting point guard, which is typically in a salary range of $16-20 million. (That's more relevant than the salaries of 6MOY, which really isn't a good gauge for anything.)
Other factors (like cap space, view of the players upside, etc.) can impact salary, up or down.
Personally, I think DS is worth about $16-18 million based on current NBA salaries. He might make more because of his situation -- situational factors can have a big impact on salaries.
We could let DS walk because we judge his salary demands as bad "resource allocation." The problem then is the cap -- if he leaves, it's not like we can spend those "resources" on another free agent. |
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kikanga
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| Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | BadGuy wrote: | | Are we taking shots at Dennis because he did not accept the contract extension offer from the Lakers or because we legitimately think he is not a good basketball player? |
I can only speak for myself. It's about value. Unless you are a supermax superstar or a barely in the league scrub, price/value has to be factored in with each players performance.
And around 25M per year for Schroeder isn't great resource allocation for a team with championship aspirations. The last two 6MOY winners were making less than 10 M a year. Less than 1/2 what Schroeder wants. And 6MOY is the level of player Schro is. |
What you're saying is true to an extent, but you can't judge players salaries in a vacuum.
DS is a lower tier point starting point guard, which is typically in a salary range of $16-20 million. (That's more relevant than the salaries of 6MOY, which really isn't a good gauge for anything.)
Other factors (like cap space, view of the players upside, etc.) can impact salary, up or down.
Personally, I think DS is worth about $16-18 million based on current NBA salaries. He might make more because of his situation -- situational factors can have a big impact on salaries.
We could let DS walk because we judge his salary demands as bad "resource allocation." The problem then is the cap -- if he leaves, it's not like we can spend those "resources" on another free agent. |
I've had this conversation with Yinoma a million times. Of course Schro is better than losing him for nothing.
Then I tell him I'd prefer even 2 rotation pieces making up Schro new salary over overpaying for him being a below average Western Conference playoff starting PG. Then Yinoma tells me how difficult sign and trades are.
I think 6MOY is a great guage in this scenario. Would you take Schro over Lou dropping 20+/5 a game on 36% 3pt shooting? He was getting paid 7M those years. Only difference is we gave DS the starting spot this year, to mixed results. Schro has played the VAST majority of his career off the bench. He's never won a playoff series as a starter. And ATL didn't win alot of games starting him in the regular season either (not really his fault though, it was a bad squad).
But we really aren't far apart. 16-18 M vs. around 13 M. Both aren't good enough for Schro. 21 M wasn't good enough for Schro.
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | BadGuy wrote: | | Are we taking shots at Dennis because he did not accept the contract extension offer from the Lakers or because we legitimately think he is not a good basketball player? |
I can only speak for myself. It's about value. Unless you are a supermax superstar or a barely in the league scrub, price/value has to be factored in with each players performance.
And around 25M per year for Schroeder isn't great resource allocation for a team with championship aspirations. The last two 6MOY winners were making less than 10 M a year. Less than 1/2 what Schroeder wants. And 6MOY is the level of player Schro is. |
But it's not your money. The only consequence is luxury taxes that the Lakers will have to pay during LBJ's run. And your replacement player will have to likely be a minimum salaried player, or hope THT takes a quantum leap to learn how to shoot 3s/play team defense/stay out of foul trouble/keep up with starting level point guards.
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | I've had this conversation with Yinoma a million times. Of course Schro is better than losing him for nothing.
Then I tell him I'd prefer even 2 rotation pieces making up Schro new salary over overpaying for him being a below average Western Conference playoff starting PG. Then Yinoma tells me how difficult sign and trades are. |
What 2 rotation pieces are getting out of thin cloth?
We have to replace Trezz, Drummond, Gasol (I think he retires to play in Spain and/or is too pissed to join the Lakers next year), and likely Kieff.
I think keeping AC/THT is a decision you make apart from Dennis. So we do not get $20m in cap space if Dennis leaves. You get 6m to replace Dennis/TRezz/Drummond/Gasol/Kieff COMBINED.
If you get a trade exception, you can't use it to sign a free agent.
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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If the Lakers shouldn't pay Dennis $20m+, why would another team pay him that (unless the Lakers are incorrectly valuing him) AND agree to be hard capped via S&T?
So either Dennis is actually worth that amount (b/c another team wants him) or no team will pay him that and we won't have an opportunistic sign and trade. Which is it? Is he so terrible no one wants him at his price, or everyone wants him all of a sudden and a team is willing to do a S&T with the Lakers to help them not be royally screwed with so many potential FAs leaving at once?
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kikanga
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| Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | BadGuy wrote: | | Are we taking shots at Dennis because he did not accept the contract extension offer from the Lakers or because we legitimately think he is not a good basketball player? |
I can only speak for myself. It's about value. Unless you are a supermax superstar or a barely in the league scrub, price/value has to be factored in with each players performance.
And around 25M per year for Schroeder isn't great resource allocation for a team with championship aspirations. The last two 6MOY winners were making less than 10 M a year. Less than 1/2 what Schroeder wants. And 6MOY is the level of player Schro is. |
But it's not your money. The only consequence is luxury taxes that the Lakers will have to pay during LBJ's run. And your replacement player will have to likely be a minimum salaried player, or hope THT takes a quantum leap to learn how to shoot 3s/play team defense/stay out of foul trouble/keep up with starting level point guards. |
Never said it was my money. Schro can't shoot 3s or keep up with playoff level Western Conference PGs either?!
Is THT in a bigger role 20+ mill a year worse than DS? I'm talking about punting a position and spending that money elsewhere via sign and trade. I know there are limitations. But neither one of us know what we could get back. So many variables go into that. Maybe we get 2/3rds DS's effectiveness with a player getting paid 1/2 as much.
I agree, Schro even at freaking 30 mill a year is better than nothing. I'm just saying what I believe for all our players besides Bron and AD. If we can get better value elsewhere, I'd prefer that.
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Last edited by kikanga on Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:05 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I'm talking about punting a position and spending that money elsewhere via sign and trade. I know there are limitations. But neither one of us know what we could get back. So many variables go into that. |
But if Dennis is good enough to get the $ that he's asking, and a team is willing to pay that, what should that tell you about what fans think? Maybe we are undervaluing him.
You can't on one hand say he's a terrible player, and then argue that we will get 1-2 good players back in return for a terrible player.
If he's a mediocre player, why would a team pay him his full freight? Just contradictions abound in that scenario.
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Is THT in a bigger role 20+ mill a year worse than DS? |
I've always wanted both. They are fundamentally different players to me. What Dennis brings, end to end speed, ability to attack the rim and draw fouls is something none of our other guys have.
The league is slowly scouting THT and he has to counter it. But that takes time. He's 20 years old. When has a 2nd round pick at age 20 been a starting championship point guard?
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kikanga
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| Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Quote: | | I'm talking about punting a position and spending that money elsewhere via sign and trade. I know there are limitations. But neither one of us know what we could get back. So many variables go into that. |
But if Dennis is good enough to get the $ that he's asking, and a team is willing to pay that, what should that tell you about what fans think? Maybe we are undervaluing him.
You can't on one hand say he's a terrible player, and then argue that we will get 1-2 good players back in return for a terrible player.
If he's a mediocre player, why would a team pay him his full freight? Just contradictions abound in that scenario. |
You're fighting a straw man. Never said he was terrible.
I already addressed this in a recent post. Small market teams, lotto teams. Teams just desperately trying to give their fans an above .500 season. Every year they overpay for players because they have a lack of options. You've followed b-ball long enough to know that's true. And that championship teams shouldn't be as frivolous with their cash as those guys.
With LBJ and AD soaking up as much cap space as they are, we shouldn't fall in love with any player and overpay them.
I'm not really arguing against DS. I'm arguing against spending over 21 M a year for DS.
I get that it's a convenient argument to make. Because in my mind I'm taking the field of all available players in whatever combination and your side is 1 guy asking for a salary amount he's never performed up to in his career.
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Ksig
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| Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: |
You're fighting a straw man. Never said he was terrible.
I already addressed this in a recent post. Small market teams, lotto teams. Teams just desperately trying to give their fans an above .500 season. Every year they overpay for players because they have a lack of options. You've followed b-ball long enough to know that's true. And that championship teams shouldn't be as frivolous with their cash as those guys.
With LBJ and AD soaking up as much cap space as they are, we shouldn't fall in love with any player and overpay them.
I'm not really arguing against DS. I'm arguing against spending over 21 M a year for DS.
I get that it's a convenient argument to make. Because in my mind I'm taking the field of all available players in whatever combination and your side is 1 guy asking for a salary amount he's never performed up to in his career. |
I mostly agree with you. I think overpaying for slightly above average players is what middling teams do and it would seriously shackle us to an overpaid DS for the next 4-5 years; it would be close to impossible to move him in the future without 1st round picks (which we also dont have many of).
All in all I think if he balls out in the playoffs like he did against brooklyn we pay him (like KCP last year); if he underperforms and we get bounced before the finals I think we dont. |
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kikanga
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| Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Ksig wrote: | I mostly agree with you. I think overpaying for slightly above average players is what middling teams do and it would seriously shackle us to an overpaid DS for the next 4-5 years; it would be close to impossible to move him in the future without 1st round picks (which we also dont have many of).
All in all I think if he balls out in the playoffs like he did against brooklyn we pay him (like KCP last year); if he underperforms and we get bounced before the finals I think we dont. |
I feel the same way. In fact, I hope he balls out. Then, whether he retires a Laker or not, we pay him what he wants and we're sitting pretty with a well priced asset that can help us win more chips.
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activeverb
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| Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | BadGuy wrote: | | Are we taking shots at Dennis because he did not accept the contract extension offer from the Lakers or because we legitimately think he is not a good basketball player? |
I can only speak for myself. It's about value. Unless you are a supermax superstar or a barely in the league scrub, price/value has to be factored in with each players performance.
And around 25M per year for Schroeder isn't great resource allocation for a team with championship aspirations. The last two 6MOY winners were making less than 10 M a year. Less than 1/2 what Schroeder wants. And 6MOY is the level of player Schro is. |
What you're saying is true to an extent, but you can't judge players salaries in a vacuum.
DS is a lower tier point starting point guard, which is typically in a salary range of $16-20 million. (That's more relevant than the salaries of 6MOY, which really isn't a good gauge for anything.)
Other factors (like cap space, view of the players upside, etc.) can impact salary, up or down.
Personally, I think DS is worth about $16-18 million based on current NBA salaries. He might make more because of his situation -- situational factors can have a big impact on salaries.
We could let DS walk because we judge his salary demands as bad "resource allocation." The problem then is the cap -- if he leaves, it's not like we can spend those "resources" on another free agent. |
I've had this conversation with Yinoma a million times. Of course Schro is better than losing him for nothing.
Then I tell him I'd prefer even 2 rotation pieces making up Schro new salary over overpaying for him being a below average Western Conference playoff starting PG. Then Yinoma tells me how difficult sign and trades are.
I think 6MOY is a great guage in this scenario. Would you take Schro over Lou dropping 20+/5 a game on 36% 3pt shooting? He was getting paid 7M those years. Only difference is we gave DS the starting spot this year, to mixed results. Schro has played the VAST majority of his career off the bench. He's never won a playoff series as a starter. And ATL didn't win alot of games starting him in the regular season either (not really his fault though, it was a bad squad).
But we really aren't far apart. 16-18 M vs. around 13 M. Both aren't good enough for Schro. 21 M wasn't good enough for Schro. |
Sure, you can always find guys in the league who are bargains. That doesn't mean you can simply grab those bargains for your team.
Now if you're saying you want to spend the MLE to sign Lou Williams this next season instead of DS, okay. But that's the only way we can get Williams. So I am not sure how he's relevant to the discussion,. |
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kikanga
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| Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | Sure, you can always find guys in the league who are bargains. That doesn't mean you can simply grab those bargains for your team.
Now if you're saying you want to spend the MLE to sign Lou Williams this next season instead of DS, okay. But that's the only way we can get Williams. So I am not sure how he's relevant to the discussion,. |
6MOTY level Lou Williams is relevant because he's a good comp. That's what DS is. An elite bench player. And an average regular season/below average postseason starting PG.
Take Schroeder specifically out of the conversation. Don't you look at players based on value? Right now, would you rather have DLO at 30 M a year or Malik Beasley at half that price?
I'm just advocating for signing players around our big 2 at prices where they are assets. On the floor or on the trade market.
If Schro wants 25 mill a year over 4-5 years. And we can sign and trade him for 2 KCP level players. I'm good with that. If not, cool i guess pay him and hope he lives up to the contract. Even though he's never been worth 20%+ of a championship team's salary cap before.
I get that nobody knows what we could get in a S&T. But to say there isn't a better way to spend that $ doesn't make sense.
I'm down for DS at a reasonable price though. I actually like him as a super role player.
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activeverb
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| Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | Sure, you can always find guys in the league who are bargains. That doesn't mean you can simply grab those bargains for your team.
Now if you're saying you want to spend the MLE to sign Lou Williams this next season instead of DS, okay. But that's the only way we can get Williams. So I am not sure how he's relevant to the discussion,. |
6MOTY level Lou Williams is relevant because he's a good comp. That's what DS is. An elite bench player. And an average regular season/below average postseason starting PG.
Take Schroeder specifically out of the conversation. Don't you look at players based on value? Right now, would you rather have DLO at 30 M a year or Malik Beasley at half that price?
I'm just advocating for signing players around our big 2 at prices where they are assets. On the floor or on the trade market.
If Schro wants 25 mill a year over 4-5 years. And we can sign and trade him for 2 KCP level players. I'm good with that. If not, cool i guess pay him and hope he lives up to the contract. Even though he's never been worth 20%+ of a championship team's salary cap before.
I get that nobody knows what we could get in a S&T. But to say there isn't a better way to spend that $ doesn't make sense.
I'm down for DS at a reasonable price though. I actually like him as a super role player. |
My strong suspicion is that DS will ultimately sign a contract, either with us or someone else, at a price you will not think is reasonable. |
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cooleggs
Starting Rotation
Joined: 09 Mar 2016
Posts: 667
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| Posted: Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Damn! Dennis pounds the rock way too much!!! And he basically drives to score -- frustrating...... |
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