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ZeroDark30_
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 Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2021 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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| DS had a good game. He did well on Steph and showed great effort. That 2nd to last possession was unacceptable though. Only saw it in real time but I don’t even think he looked at the rim. Completely panicked. I think it took AC to make the heads up play and call TO |
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scout_0
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Joined: 22 Oct 2020
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| Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 4:51 am Post subject: |
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Dennis did not even look to shoot the ball after he saw LeBron get mad at KCP for swinging the ball around...Everyone, was just giving the ball to lebron.
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LakerSD
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Joined: 10 Nov 2016
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| Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 7:11 am Post subject: |
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| scout_0 wrote: | | Dennis did not even look to shoot the ball after he saw LeBron get mad at KCP for swinging the ball around...Everyone, was just giving the ball to lebron. |
Lebron was telling KCP to shoot the ball so I don’t think that was it tbh.
Dennis just takes his time shooting 3s and didn’t look comfortable. |
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windycitycane
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Joined: 31 Oct 2012
Posts: 13166
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| Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 9:02 am Post subject: |
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never seen someone start so hot and then implode with the lights on..
our entire team, just like a 7th grade basketball game waiting on the the best kid to save us while everyone else just watches..
smh..
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Laker4lifer4real
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Joined: 15 Jul 2017
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| Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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| DS is not a clutch player. Think DFish vs. DS and it’s laughable. This should be ADs team when a Lebron sits, but DS wants to take all the shots. |
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Sina
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Joined: 12 Jul 2015
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| Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 2:50 am Post subject: |
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| DS doesn’t find out his role yet. Give him some more time. He is a talented player and the coach and teammates could help him |
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PenG_
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Joined: 01 Feb 2020
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| Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 3:13 am Post subject: |
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| DS had no confidence last night and clearly left the game frustrated. Early in the 4th, Lebron had to essentially force DS to take the ball up court. The one turnover is a huge improvement. |
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yinoma2001
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Joined: 19 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 6:30 am Post subject: |
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Yup. Not a good game from him yesterday. A weird one actually.
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BandwagonLBJhopper
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| Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 6:32 am Post subject: |
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He would be better off the bench where he can get more touches. It’s not gonna happen with LBJ and AD, he would eat off the bench.
Maybe Vogel can stagger the minutes better since he is insisting on starting. |
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troy
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| Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 6:55 am Post subject: |
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| I still believe in DS. He's just in a slump. He'll get back to form. |
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wolfpaclaker
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Joined: 29 May 2002
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| Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 7:04 am Post subject: |
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A lot has been made about his impact and the lack of impact from Trez-Gasol vs Dwight-McGee buy my eye test and all the advanced numbers I look at, show that Trez-Gasol have added value as a net, and DS has thus far in this role been more of a negative vs positive.
He has played about 4 games like we need him to play. If he bottled up what Caruso brings, with the greater shotmaking abilty that Dennis has, he would so damn good. I am hoping that Dennis gets that by playoffs. His role is also a lot harder to learn and fit in, than your typical 3nD or other roles. Frank is playing him way too many minutes (Should be in the 24 range).
But the numbers that stick out to me
Overall BPM -3.5
O rating 103 (team rating is 114.6 so -11.3)
3 point % shooting 31% (way lower than team average)
D rating 106 (team rating is 104.7, so -1.3)
There just is not a case for him to be playing as many minutes as he is, unless you are saying that this is about load managing Bron(so Bron does not have to handle the ball all the time) and AD (So that AD does not have to average 30 a night). I am ok with this, so long as if playoffs began today, Frank would adjust his minutes and role accordingly.
Positive, the defense we lost with Avery, is all but replaced by Dennis. His ball pressure and ability to play D is very good. I can not think of a better combo at PG defensively than Dennis-Caruso. Neither guy lets you get anything easy. If Alex struggles on D for some particular reason, you can trust that Dennis will do something there. That is his biggest value in my book. His on ball D, and ability to pressure the ball. I wanna see more Dennis-Caruso backcourt minutes. Talk about not getting anything easy, if you are trying to attack us on the dribble. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 7:16 am Post subject: |
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It's crazy how Dennis's BPM went from -2.8 to -3.5 after one bad Bucks game.
Meaning, still too early to draw sweeping conclusions.
I don't think starting Kuz or Wes instead is the answer. AC, I like him in his role and think he should get more minutes too.
I do agree his mpg are a bit high, but 24mpg isn't it either. We just have a wealth of talent right now and it's clear Vogel is still trying to figure things out. Preseason darling THT isn't even getting minutes at this point!
I'm 100% open to having Dennis be a 6th man too, but that may impact extension talks as it seems the Lakers want to extend him.
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 7:23 am Post subject: |
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I am past the starting vs 6th man stuff. The investment has been made, and he is an elite defender, like Avery was starting for us last year, I see it as that. There is no doubt his defensive contributions to the starters.
Just want to see some better 3 point shooting, and some less minutes, so guys like THT can play, more PT for Caruso, maybe some PT for Wesley as he is a natural 3nD role player vs a forced one. 31.1 seems too high to me.
I am confident come playoffs, Frank will figure out how to match up accordingly. There is no doubt in my book, Dennis is a weapon, if used right. |
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ZeroDark30_
Star Player
Joined: 27 Feb 2019
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| Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 7:32 am Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | A lot has been made about his impact and the lack of impact from Trez-Gasol vs Dwight-McGee buy my eye test and all the advanced numbers I look at, show that Trez-Gasol have added value as a net, and DS has thus far in this role been more of a negative vs positive.
He has played about 4 games like we need him to play. If he bottled up what Caruso brings, with the greater shotmaking abilty that Dennis has, he would so damn good. I am hoping that Dennis gets that by playoffs. His role is also a lot harder to learn and fit in, than your typical 3nD or other roles. Frank is playing him way too many minutes (Should be in the 24 range).
But the numbers that stick out to me
Overall BPM -3.5
O rating 103 (team rating is 114.6 so -11.3)
3 point % shooting 31% (way lower than team average)
D rating 106 (team rating is 104.7, so -1.3)
There just is not a case for him to be playing as many minutes as he is, unless you are saying that this is about load managing Bron(so Bron does not have to handle the ball all the time) and AD (So that AD does not have to average 30 a night). I am ok with this, so long as if playoffs began today, Frank would adjust his minutes and role accordingly.
Positive, the defense we lost with Avery, is all but replaced by Dennis. His ball pressure and ability to play D is very good. I can not think of a better combo at PG defensively than Dennis-Caruso. Neither guy lets you get anything easy. If Alex struggles on D for some particular reason, you can trust that Dennis will do something there. That is his biggest value in my book. His on ball D, and ability to pressure the ball. I wanna see more Dennis-Caruso backcourt minutes. Talk about not getting anything easy, if you are trying to attack us on the dribble. |
At this point, him starting and playing these amount of minutes had to have been agreed upon prior to him accepting the trade. I’ve been most disappointed in his playmaking, particularly making simple post entry passes, and finishing at the rim. I thought he was much better there but he’s not finishing his layups like I thought he would. However, his defense has been a pleasant surprise. |
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yinoma2001
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Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 119487
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| Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 7:36 am Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | I am past the starting vs 6th man stuff. The investment has been made, and he is an elite defender, like Avery was starting for us last year, I see it as that. There is no doubt his defensive contributions to the starters.
Just want to see some better 3 point shooting, and some less minutes, so guys like THT can play, more PT for Caruso, maybe some PT for Wesley as he is a natural 3nD role player vs a forced one. 31.1 seems too high to me.
I am confident come playoffs, Frank will figure out how to match up accordingly. There is no doubt in my book, Dennis is a weapon, if used right. |
I don't think we can have a rotation where everyone plays, TBH. Look at this ridiculous wing depth chart:
Dennis/AC
KCP/Wes/THT
LBJ/Kuz/McKinnie.
It's a wealth of talent. If Kuz was a better "PF" I think we could siphon more minutes for him there. But we have literally 5 deserving guards vying for 96 minutes. And then we had Kuz start a few games at SG when KCP was out. So in this COVID season, I think it's fine to have too much depth. But squeezing a minute or two here should go to AC at this point over THT. If we could move Wes to play more SF (but we can't b/c Kuz needs minutes there), that would be great too.
Simply put, we have a much deeper guard rotation this year.
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ThePageDude
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| Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 7:40 am Post subject: |
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| ZeroDark30_ wrote: |
I’ve been most disappointed in his playmaking, particularly making simple post entry passes,
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I wonder why we haven't seen more deliberate Trezz/DS sets from Vogel yet, especially in lineups without LBJ and against the opponent's second units.
(I can understand their being less opportunity to experiment with the starters with LBD driving/dictating the offense and reluctance to mess with the tried-and-true) |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 7:43 am Post subject: |
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| ThePageDude wrote: | | ZeroDark30_ wrote: |
I’ve been most disappointed in his playmaking, particularly making simple post entry passes,
<snip>
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I wonder why we haven't seen more deliberate Trezz/DS sets from Vogel yet, especially in lineups without LBJ and against the opponent's second units.
(I can understand their being less opportunity to experiment with the starters with LBD driving/dictating the offense and reluctance to mess with the tried-and-true) |
Good question. I don't think Dennis is a naturally gifted passer, but now would be a good time to work on that (with AD too). If you have Trezz out there with one of AD/Kieff as the other big, you theoretically could space the floor on one side for that.
Seems they're not running much PnR with Trezz and making him be a garbage guy or iso scorer. Sort of going away from what made him a 6MOY with all that PnR. The Clips absolutely destroyed us with that.
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 7:46 am Post subject: |
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| ThePageDude wrote: | | ZeroDark30_ wrote: |
I’ve been most disappointed in his playmaking, particularly making simple post entry passes,
<snip>
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I wonder why we haven't seen more deliberate Trezz/DS sets from Vogel yet, especially in lineups without LBJ and against the opponent's second units.
(I can understand their being less opportunity to experiment with the starters with LBD driving/dictating the offense and reluctance to mess with the tried-and-true) |
I believe they view him as someone who will help AD-Bron, Seems the way the team is being set up, they want these guys to excel around AD-Bron, or AD or just Bron, not without them. Initially I was also yearning for that Trez-Dennis 2 man game, or non-AD/Bron bench unit (Trez/Kuz/Dennis/Caruso would be a good enough bench to sustain leads as AD and Bron rest).
Guess it makes sense in a way in the longrun. Bench play, gets you RS wins. Come playoffs. 1 of your 2 superstars will always be out there (assuming health, obviously). So you want to use the RS to develop that chemistry around your superstars.
I think in a way, we are going the anti-Clippers route. Which is smart for the playoffs, maybe not so much for the RS. Clippers often (and other teams as well) rely on elite 6th man types to spearhead a bench. Frank Vogel tends to use his bench also around one of his 2 superstars. |
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ThePageDude
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| Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 7:49 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: |
<snip>
Seems they're not running much PnR with Trezz and making him be a garbage guy or iso scorer. Sort of going away from what made him a 6MOY with all that PnR. The Clips absolutely destroyed us with that. |
Yeah. Trezz has been quoted as saying that he likes this "free flowing" offense better BUT that's still no reason not to diversify our offense and do both.
I have high hopes that this is coming sooner rather than later - seems to me this could be key to keeping Trezz on the floor longer and resting Gasol/AD further PLUS translating this downstream to better AD/DS combos. |
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ThePageDude
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| Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 7:55 am Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: |
I think in a way, we are going the anti-Clippers route. Which is smart for the playoffs, maybe not so much for the RS. Clippers often (and other teams as well) rely on elite 6th man types to spearhead a bench. Frank Vogel tends to use his bench also around one of his 2 superstars. |
Valid point. Thing is one way to get LBJ more rest through the RS is to give DS more minutes *without* LBJ and make those lineups more effective. That means DS/AD and DS/Trezz reps. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 7:58 am Post subject: |
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| ThePageDude wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: |
<snip>
Seems they're not running much PnR with Trezz and making him be a garbage guy or iso scorer. Sort of going away from what made him a 6MOY with all that PnR. The Clips absolutely destroyed us with that. |
Yeah. Trezz has been quoted as saying that he likes this "free flowing" offense better BUT that's still no reason not to diversify our offense and do both.
I have high hopes that this is coming sooner rather than later - seems to me this could be key to keeping Trezz on the floor longer and resting Gasol/AD further PLUS translating this downstream to better AD/DS combos. |
There's a reason why Stockton/Malone killed teams and a reason why it still is effective today. I too would like them to continue working on it to have in the bag. When done right, so difficult to guard and with all the 3 point shooting we have, we would have so many open looks on kickouts too. Also, AD/LBJ put tremendous pressure on teams, fouls-wise so you would get a lot of free throws for DS/Trezz (and they're good enough FT shooters).
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 8:00 am Post subject: |
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And Lou was unplayable in key playoff games b/c he is a defensive sieve. DS is not that at all. So maybe develop that Trezz/DS for both the regular and postseason. Cannot always assume AD/LBJ will be healthy and there for the playoffs. Have that Plan B ready to use just in case.
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TheBlackMamba
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| Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:43 am Post subject: |
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Here are a few questions. Is it a good thing that he's in a slump going into extension talks that are probably starting up again in February? Does the team reconsider even giving him an extension (it seems like they were fairly pro-Schroder a month ago)? And more importantly, does the team pay up for BOTH Schroder and Caruso?
Honestly, give Caruso all the money if it's an "either or" scenario. We can probably get another veteran ballhandler with the MLE that's a more natural fit next to Lebron. And I like Schroder for what it's worth, his defense has been a very pleasant surprise. Just don't like the offensive fit...maybe we do need some more time to assess, though. It's not easy playing next to Lebron for the first time, as we've seen from many All-Star level players in the past. And maybe with his age, they're looking at it from a longer term perspective to give AD someone to run with? |
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scout_0
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| Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:48 am Post subject: |
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| 17M per year would be fair for both sides no? |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:52 am Post subject: |
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I trust the FO and how they handle Dennis. If they think he's part of the future, so be it. If not, so be it. They've done a good job evaluating talent.
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