Joined: 24 Dec 2007 Posts: 35889 Location: Santa Clarita, CA (Hell) ->>>>>Ithaca, NY -≥≥≥≥≥Berkeley, CA
Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:49 am Post subject:
1995Lakers wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
loslakersss wrote:
I don’t know how anyone thinks this team is better than late prime Kobe + Pau + Lamar.
Who guards the paint on that 07-08 team (assuming no Bynum)? At full health, 08-10 is likely better, but Bynum averaged 6.3 ppg and 3.7 rpg during the first playoff title run and 8.6/6.9 in the second one. Those are replacement level center numbers, not those of a star.
Andrew Bynum: sigh.....one of the greatest what-ifs. Had the talent to be better than Tim Duncan (at least on the offensive end). Those spurts when they would feed Bynum...I was sure he was going to be much better than Pau Gasol. If he had kept the athleticism of 06-07 and 07-08 to 11-12, there is no doubt in my mind, Bynum would have been a top-5 player minimum in the league. If he wasnt knock-kneed and had the lower body bone structure similar to Shaq, Bynum would have dominated even until now
Do you think the December/January 07-08 version was better than any version of Pau? 17.6/10.6 are similar PPG and rebounding to Pau and he could serve as a defensive anchor as well, whereas protecting the paint and guarding the pick and roll were always liabilities for Pau. I actually think the 07-08 version of Bynum was him at his best— better than the slower, bulked up version with a more refined post game under Mike Brown who averaged 18.7 PPG and 11.8 RPG. Imagine combining both versions together. And Bynum was apparently not even a hard worker.
Athletic version with a developed post game, not having to share touches with Pau and Kobe, likely averages 24/12 at a minimum. He would have been the best center since Shaq just based on athleticism, size, and the post games he developed with his limited work ethic. Now imagine if he had actually be interested in working with Kareem and improving. Then you’re talking about a top 3 player for a decade. _________________ Damian Lillard shatters Dwight Coward's championship dreams:
Joined: 24 Dec 2007 Posts: 35889 Location: Santa Clarita, CA (Hell) ->>>>>Ithaca, NY -≥≥≥≥≥Berkeley, CA
Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 11:51 am Post subject:
j-dawg wrote:
1995Lakers wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
loslakersss wrote:
I don’t know how anyone thinks this team is better than late prime Kobe + Pau + Lamar.
Who guards the paint on that 07-08 team (assuming no Bynum)? At full health, 08-10 is likely better, but Bynum averaged 6.3 ppg and 3.7 rpg during the first playoff title run and 8.6/6.9 in the second one. Those are replacement level center numbers, not those of a star.
Andrew Bynum: sigh.....one of the greatest what-ifs. Had the talent to be better than Tim Duncan (at least on the offensive end). Those spurts when they would feed Bynum...I was sure he was going to be much better than Pau Gasol. If he had kept the athleticism of 06-07 and 07-08 to 11-12, there is no doubt in my mind, Bynum would have been a top-5 player minimum in the league. If he wasnt knock-kneed and had the lower body bone structure similar to Shaq, Bynum would have dominated even until now
Agreed
What people don’t realize when they think about Bynum vs. the Celtics was that the Celtics had to respect him. Even Doc Rivers pointed out that Bynum’s presence was huge. Perkins had to guard Bynum and KG had to guard Gasol. Taking Perkins off of Gasol was huge for us, and Garnett couldn’t Do the same things that he did in 2008 now that he had to worry about Gasol.
Although Gasol/Odom was enough to beat 95% of the NBA, the Celtics were our biggest rival and they were outside of that 95%. This is actually reminiscent of the Lakers today, in which Dwight Howard’s presence is huge against teams with a traditional slow footed center. Against most teams, Morris/Davis at the 5 is probably good enough.
Back to Bynum: although I agree with what you mentioned, I also think he probably would’ve fared even better if he had came around a few years earlier, because the league was already starting to get small back in 08-09.
My pipe dream scenario is that we’d signed Marc Gasol (our second round pick) to start the 07-08 season and traded another first rounder for Pau (or Sun Yue) instead. Then traded the injured Bynum for an all star PG (Jason Kidd or preferably someone younger) and kept Ariza instead of signing Artest after 08-09.
Then you have a threepeat from 08-10 and can make a serious run in 2011 as well. I think a rookie Marc Gasol would have provided the defensive presence against the Celtics in 2008 to put us over the top. Leon Powe doesn’t score like that against a good defensive center. _________________ Damian Lillard shatters Dwight Coward's championship dreams:
I don’t know how anyone thinks this team is better than late prime Kobe + Pau + Lamar.
Who guards the paint on that 07-08 team (assuming no Bynum)? At full health, 08-10 is likely better, but Bynum averaged 6.3 ppg and 3.7 rpg during the first playoff title run and 8.6/6.9 in the second one. Those are replacement level center numbers, not those of a star.
Andrew Bynum: sigh.....one of the greatest what-ifs. Had the talent to be better than Tim Duncan (at least on the offensive end). Those spurts when they would feed Bynum...I was sure he was going to be much better than Pau Gasol. If he had kept the athleticism of 06-07 and 07-08 to 11-12, there is no doubt in my mind, Bynum would have been a top-5 player minimum in the league. If he wasnt knock-kneed and had the lower body bone structure similar to Shaq, Bynum would have dominated even until now
Do you think the December/January 07-08 version was better than any version of Pau? 17.6/10.6 are similar PPG and rebounding to Pau and he could serve as a defensive anchor as well, whereas protecting the paint and guarding the pick and roll were always liabilities for Pau. I actually think the 07-08 version of Bynum was him at his best— better than the slower, bulked up version with a more refined post game under Mike Brown who averaged 18.7 PPG and 11.8 RPG. Imagine combining both versions together. And Bynum was apparently not even a hard worker.
Athletic version with a developed post game, not having to share touches with Pau and Kobe, likely averages 24/12 at a minimum. He would have been the best center since Shaq just based on athleticism, size, and the post games he developed with his limited work ethic. Now imagine if he had actually be interested in working with Kareem and improving. Then you’re talking about a top 3 player for a decade.
Yea I was talking about combining the athletic high flying Bynum of 07-08 (age 20) with the skillset of 11-12 (age 24) which would have been absolutely possible if Bynum didnt have LO and Kobe smash into his knees despite his knock-kneedness. With this Bynum, Pau absolutely would be forced to be the 3rd option. Actually with this Bynum, Andrew should be the 1st Option over Kobe. We actually never saw what peak Bynum would have looked like because he got hurt before he developed that complete low post skillset. Top 3 player of the decade would have been completely possible with this guy. I always called him the perfect hybrid of Shaq and Duncan. Put it this way: if Andrew could have reached his peak potential, we would not have needed Anthony Davis period.
All said, the Bynum factor makes the Kobe/Pau teams arguably one of the most talented Laker teams and even more talented than the Shaq-Kobe teams. The reality of Bynum (his non-factorness in 2009 and his playing through knee pain in 2010) I think makes them even weaker than this team.
I don’t know how anyone thinks this team is better than late prime Kobe + Pau + Lamar.
Who guards the paint on that 07-08 team (assuming no Bynum)? At full health, 08-10 is likely better, but Bynum averaged 6.3 ppg and 3.7 rpg during the first playoff title run and 8.6/6.9 in the second one. Those are replacement level center numbers, not those of a star.
Andrew Bynum: sigh.....one of the greatest what-ifs. Had the talent to be better than Tim Duncan (at least on the offensive end). Those spurts when they would feed Bynum...I was sure he was going to be much better than Pau Gasol. If he had kept the athleticism of 06-07 and 07-08 to 11-12, there is no doubt in my mind, Bynum would have been a top-5 player minimum in the league. If he wasnt knock-kneed and had the lower body bone structure similar to Shaq, Bynum would have dominated even until now
Do you think the December/January 07-08 version was better than any version of Pau? 17.6/10.6 are similar PPG and rebounding to Pau and he could serve as a defensive anchor as well, whereas protecting the paint and guarding the pick and roll were always liabilities for Pau. I actually think the 07-08 version of Bynum was him at his best— better than the slower, bulked up version with a more refined post game under Mike Brown who averaged 18.7 PPG and 11.8 RPG. Imagine combining both versions together. And Bynum was apparently not even a hard worker.
Athletic version with a developed post game, not having to share touches with Pau and Kobe, likely averages 24/12 at a minimum. He would have been the best center since Shaq just based on athleticism, size, and the post games he developed with his limited work ethic. Now imagine if he had actually be interested in working with Kareem and improving. Then you’re talking about a top 3 player for a decade.
Yea I was talking about combining the athletic high flying Bynum of 07-08 (age 20) with the skillset of 11-12 (age 24) which would have been absolutely possible if Bynum didnt have LO and Kobe smash into his knees despite his knock-kneedness. With this Bynum, Pau absolutely would be forced to be the 3rd option. Actually with this Bynum, Andrew should be the 1st Option over Kobe. We actually never saw what peak Bynum would have looked like because he got hurt before he developed that complete low post skillset. Top 3 player of the decade would have been completely possible with this guy. I always called him the perfect hybrid of Shaq and Duncan. Put it this way: if Andrew could have reached his peak potential, we would not have needed Anthony Davis period.
I see what you’re saying, although I’d argue that there would be a need for AD because Andrew would be in his 30’s by now
Remember that 30 rebound game that he had? And this is a guy that people questioned with regards to his passion for the game. That was one of many glimpses that we saw that gave us an idea of what could have been.
It’s easy to look back on a bunch of stats and try to downplay his importance to the Lakers, but he was important. People look back on Kobe’s last championship run and think about the highlight plays by Kobe/Pau/Lamar and thought that was the team. No, that wasn’t the team, and in fact that team would’ve made the Finals but that team wouldn’t have beaten the Celtics. In fact that team unfortunately didn’t beat the Celtics.
Andrew was the bruiser that allowed Pau to be himself. For years people criticized him for being soft, especially when he matched up with more physical players such as Kendrick Perkins. He needed a bully in there with him to take some of that pressure off. That big man was not Lamar, it was Andrew. This is not to downplay Lamar Odom’s contributions. In fact, the Odom/Gasol dynamic is unique and something we haven’t seen since that team was broken up. The East Coast media would be in heaven if Embiid/Simmons has that type of chemistry (not to mention, we’d probably be playing the Sixers right now). But together, that 3 headed Monster was a nightmare for the NBA. They complimented each other well because the dynamics of Odom/Gasol were so good through the regular season and against any team not named the Celtics.
And all of this was already after injuries. Yes, pre-injury Bynum would’ve been a problem for the rest of the NBA.
Joined: 24 Dec 2007 Posts: 35889 Location: Santa Clarita, CA (Hell) ->>>>>Ithaca, NY -≥≥≥≥≥Berkeley, CA
Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 12:38 pm Post subject:
1995Lakers wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
1995Lakers wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
loslakersss wrote:
I don’t know how anyone thinks this team is better than late prime Kobe + Pau + Lamar.
Who guards the paint on that 07-08 team (assuming no Bynum)? At full health, 08-10 is likely better, but Bynum averaged 6.3 ppg and 3.7 rpg during the first playoff title run and 8.6/6.9 in the second one. Those are replacement level center numbers, not those of a star.
Andrew Bynum: sigh.....one of the greatest what-ifs. Had the talent to be better than Tim Duncan (at least on the offensive end). Those spurts when they would feed Bynum...I was sure he was going to be much better than Pau Gasol. If he had kept the athleticism of 06-07 and 07-08 to 11-12, there is no doubt in my mind, Bynum would have been a top-5 player minimum in the league. If he wasnt knock-kneed and had the lower body bone structure similar to Shaq, Bynum would have dominated even until now
Do you think the December/January 07-08 version was better than any version of Pau? 17.6/10.6 are similar PPG and rebounding to Pau and he could serve as a defensive anchor as well, whereas protecting the paint and guarding the pick and roll were always liabilities for Pau. I actually think the 07-08 version of Bynum was him at his best— better than the slower, bulked up version with a more refined post game under Mike Brown who averaged 18.7 PPG and 11.8 RPG. Imagine combining both versions together. And Bynum was apparently not even a hard worker.
Athletic version with a developed post game, not having to share touches with Pau and Kobe, likely averages 24/12 at a minimum. He would have been the best center since Shaq just based on athleticism, size, and the post games he developed with his limited work ethic. Now imagine if he had actually be interested in working with Kareem and improving. Then you’re talking about a top 3 player for a decade.
Yea I was talking about combining the athletic high flying Bynum of 07-08 (age 20) with the skillset of 11-12 (age 24) which would have been absolutely possible if Bynum didnt have LO and Kobe smash into his knees despite his knock-kneedness. With this Bynum, Pau absolutely would be forced to be the 3rd option. Actually with this Bynum, Andrew should be the 1st Option over Kobe. We actually never saw what peak Bynum would have looked like because he got hurt before he developed that complete low post skillset. Top 3 player of the decade would have been completely possible with this guy. I always called him the perfect hybrid of Shaq and Duncan. Put it this way: if Andrew could have reached his peak potential, we would not have needed Anthony Davis period.
Yeah, really there would not have even been any comparison with Orlando Dwight Howard if Bynum had not gotten injured.
And then you add in the three point range, and, my God... _________________ Damian Lillard shatters Dwight Coward's championship dreams:
I don’t know how anyone thinks this team is better than late prime Kobe + Pau + Lamar.
Who guards the paint on that 07-08 team (assuming no Bynum)? At full health, 08-10 is likely better, but Bynum averaged 6.3 ppg and 3.7 rpg during the first playoff title run and 8.6/6.9 in the second one. Those are replacement level center numbers, not those of a star.
Andrew Bynum: sigh.....one of the greatest what-ifs. Had the talent to be better than Tim Duncan (at least on the offensive end). Those spurts when they would feed Bynum...I was sure he was going to be much better than Pau Gasol. If he had kept the athleticism of 06-07 and 07-08 to 11-12, there is no doubt in my mind, Bynum would have been a top-5 player minimum in the league. If he wasnt knock-kneed and had the lower body bone structure similar to Shaq, Bynum would have dominated even until now
Do you think the December/January 07-08 version was better than any version of Pau? 17.6/10.6 are similar PPG and rebounding to Pau and he could serve as a defensive anchor as well, whereas protecting the paint and guarding the pick and roll were always liabilities for Pau. I actually think the 07-08 version of Bynum was him at his best— better than the slower, bulked up version with a more refined post game under Mike Brown who averaged 18.7 PPG and 11.8 RPG. Imagine combining both versions together. And Bynum was apparently not even a hard worker.
Athletic version with a developed post game, not having to share touches with Pau and Kobe, likely averages 24/12 at a minimum. He would have been the best center since Shaq just based on athleticism, size, and the post games he developed with his limited work ethic. Now imagine if he had actually be interested in working with Kareem and improving. Then you’re talking about a top 3 player for a decade.
Yea I was talking about combining the athletic high flying Bynum of 07-08 (age 20) with the skillset of 11-12 (age 24) which would have been absolutely possible if Bynum didnt have LO and Kobe smash into his knees despite his knock-kneedness. With this Bynum, Pau absolutely would be forced to be the 3rd option. Actually with this Bynum, Andrew should be the 1st Option over Kobe. We actually never saw what peak Bynum would have looked like because he got hurt before he developed that complete low post skillset. Top 3 player of the decade would have been completely possible with this guy. I always called him the perfect hybrid of Shaq and Duncan. Put it this way: if Andrew could have reached his peak potential, we would not have needed Anthony Davis period.
Yeah, really there would not have even been any comparison with Orlando Dwight Howard if Bynum had not gotten injured.
And then you add in the three point range, and, my God...
Yea that workout video of Bynum trying to make a comeback. Obviously his knees were gone and he no longer had the burst that he once had but he was as lean as he was when he was a youngin and that outside shooting stroke looked real nice - even better than when he was playing as he had centered the ball above his head instead of to the right side like how he used to shoot it...similar change that Michael Jordan made on his jumper starting from his 2nd or 3rd year in the league
Joined: 24 Dec 2007 Posts: 35889 Location: Santa Clarita, CA (Hell) ->>>>>Ithaca, NY -≥≥≥≥≥Berkeley, CA
Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 3:21 pm Post subject:
Why do you think his knees were so bad? Is it some sort of natural defect or did those Lamar/Kobe incidents actually cause once-normal knees to become defective? _________________ Damian Lillard shatters Dwight Coward's championship dreams:
Why do you think his knees were so bad? Is it some sort of natural defect or did those Lamar/Kobe incidents actually cause once-normal knees to become defective?
His knees were an issue for him even in high school where he once feared he had torn his ACL although it turned out it wasnt as severe. Had LO and Kobe never bashed into his knees, his career and prime would have been longer and we might have seen the "Super Bynum" we all hoped for. That said, he was never meant for a long career. His bone structure being knock-kneed ensured he would be prone to knee problems. If you recall his return during the 2007-2008 season took longer than expected (we were hoping he might return during the season) which gave you the first indication that he did not heal well even as a youngster when it came to knee injuries. The slightest bumps were a possible catastrophe when it came to him and that is why he had to start wearing those clunky knee braces for stabilization. Being born how he was born, I cant see a scenario where he would have had a long career. This is why Shaquille O'Neal is such a genetic freak. Even not taking care of himself, he lasted that long because his frame could support that weight for so long.
Joined: 24 Dec 2007 Posts: 35889 Location: Santa Clarita, CA (Hell) ->>>>>Ithaca, NY -≥≥≥≥≥Berkeley, CA
Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 9:46 pm Post subject:
1995Lakers wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
Why do you think his knees were so bad? Is it some sort of natural defect or did those Lamar/Kobe incidents actually cause once-normal knees to become defective?
His knees were an issue for him even in high school where he once feared he had torn his ACL although it turned out it wasnt as severe. Had LO and Kobe never bashed into his knees, his career and prime would have been longer and we might have seen the "Super Bynum" we all hoped for. That said, he was never meant for a long career. His bone structure being knock-kneed ensured he would be prone to knee problems. If you recall his return during the 2007-2008 season took longer than expected (we were hoping he might return during the season) which gave you the first indication that he did not heal well even as a youngster when it came to knee injuries. The slightest bumps were a possible catastrophe when it came to him and that is why he had to start wearing those clunky knee braces for stabilization. Being born how he was born, I cant see a scenario where he would have had a long career. This is why Shaquille O'Neal is such a genetic freak. Even not taking care of himself, he lasted that long because his frame could support that weight for so long.
I remember people here saying at the time that those were freak accidents and that he wasn’t actually injury prone. Do you think those sorts of incidents would have also injured Shaq, Dwight, Chandler, etc.? Or were they only because he was already injury prone? _________________ Damian Lillard shatters Dwight Coward's championship dreams:
I think with hindsight and time to be objective that he did have fragile knees. But I do also think those were freak injuries and I’m not so sure that he would have hurt himself due to a no contact injury — something that I attribute to “injury prone” guys like D Rose, B Roy, Grant Hill. But eventually he probably would have come down on someone’s foot or someone fall into him and with the lack of durability in his knees it would have been a similar result.
AD is incredible but you’re matching him up against a Pau AND Odom. Pau’s Already outplayed a prime Dwight so this Dwight won’t be doing that well against him. Odom battled with KG so I think he can hold his own against AD. Kobe is gonna cook old Lebron. Fisher, Ariza, Sasha, even Farmar will hit those corner 3’s. I don’t see the teams being that close. And that’s not even counting Bynum.
I don’t know how anyone thinks this team is better than late prime Kobe + Pau + Lamar.
Its actually simple: Current Lebron is about same tier as 09 and 10 Kobe (his Suns series is the saving grace - if not for that series current Lebron is head and shoulders better than 10 Kobe). AD is better than any version of Pau. Current Howard is far more useful than 09 Bynum (who was practically useless - would have won a title without him and giving LO more minutes) and about the same tier as 10 Bynum. 09 and 10 Odom had about the same impact as current Rondo. Fisher equates to Danny Green. Current KCP is a better player than 09 Ariza and worse than 10 Artest. Jordy, Sasha/Luke are all worse than Caruso and Kieff. Without a doubt, this team is better than the Kobe Pau teams...or did you forget the 7 game series with Yao-less Rockets that kicked our ass with Chuck Hayes and Aaron Brooks or the tip by Pau away from going to a Game 7 vs OKC after blowing the lead in Game 3 and getting absolutely annihilated in Game 4. Lack of focus and playing down to the level of competition by this team????? Wow....The Kobe/Pau and especially Shaq/Kobe teams were notorious for that. This team actually does a good job of keeping focus....a lot better than those teams
Wow. I think there is a big difference between the 2009 and 2010 teams. People constantly overrate Artest and underrate Ariza IMO. If you’re going to put a lot of emphasis on playoff performance, Ariza hit 47.6% of his threes that year. Also, the 2010 team looked fatigued and banged up, and that was even more true in 2011.
I think you’re also underestimating the impact of coaching, and comparing position by position doesn’t always work. Otherwise the 2011 Miami Heat beat the 2011 Dallas Mavericks, and OKC would have won with KD, Harden, Westbrook and Ibaka.
Yes, Ariza wasn’t a star, but in many cases I would take a guy like that over a bigger name like an old Carmelo or a Paul George.
^The 2009 team ended the Boston Celtics 19 game winning streak, won the rematch against that Boston team on the road, and won 65 games fwiw. They also swept the season series against the Rockets when Yao was there.
Lol reminds me after we repeated with Pau/Kobe. The MJ vs Kobe thread roared to the top of page 1 with "After the Lakers threepeat, Kobe will officially dethrone MJ as GOAT"
Yeah...I'm excited too, but wait until it's done.
But to prematurely answer the question, obviously it's not about winning one title, but repeating. In a 1-season vacuum, i think I put this team above the Kobe-Pau Lakers just in terms of ceiling, but obviously the sentimental attachment to the Pau/Kobe Lakers (and the fact they repeated) makes it tough to actually put them above them. I'd put them ahead of the West/Wilt Lakers. They would have to threepeat at a minimum to get into the Shaq-Kobe convo. And i don't even know what they need to do to get ahead of Magic/Kareem, but they'd need to luck the eff out in the draft with another future Hall of Famer.
The Kobe/Pau teams were way deeper than this team. Odom, Bynum, Ariza, Metta, Fish etc. were all better than anyone on this team's bench.
Then you have prime Kobe vs. old Lebron, which is advantage Kobe. The only advantage this team has is AD vs. Pau, and even that isn't significant.
Mmm the gap between AD and Pau is to me significant. Maybe the gap between AD and Pau on offense isn't too big, but Pau never even sniffed an All-defensive team. What AD is able to do on that end of the floor is something that can be done by like 5 guys ever (Bill Russell, Garnett, Hakeem...David Robinson?) and other than Garnett, nobody had to cover as much as space or defend guys as fast as the ones AD does today.
Also 2010 Kobe might have been younger, but statistically i'm not sure he was better than this Lebron, who is way more dominant on the boards and assists, while scoring about as well.
Joined: 24 Dec 2007 Posts: 35889 Location: Santa Clarita, CA (Hell) ->>>>>Ithaca, NY -≥≥≥≥≥Berkeley, CA
Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:26 am Post subject:
Steve007 wrote:
1995Lakers wrote:
loslakersss wrote:
I don’t know how anyone thinks this team is better than late prime Kobe + Pau + Lamar.
Its actually simple: Current Lebron is about same tier as 09 and 10 Kobe (his Suns series is the saving grace - if not for that series current Lebron is head and shoulders better than 10 Kobe). AD is better than any version of Pau. Current Howard is far more useful than 09 Bynum (who was practically useless - would have won a title without him and giving LO more minutes) and about the same tier as 10 Bynum. 09 and 10 Odom had about the same impact as current Rondo. Fisher equates to Danny Green. Current KCP is a better player than 09 Ariza and worse than 10 Artest. Jordy, Sasha/Luke are all worse than Caruso and Kieff. Without a doubt, this team is better than the Kobe Pau teams...or did you forget the 7 game series with Yao-less Rockets that kicked our ass with Chuck Hayes and Aaron Brooks or the tip by Pau away from going to a Game 7 vs OKC after blowing the lead in Game 3 and getting absolutely annihilated in Game 4. Lack of focus and playing down to the level of competition by this team????? Wow....The Kobe/Pau and especially Shaq/Kobe teams were notorious for that. This team actually does a good job of keeping focus....a lot better than those teams
Wow. I think there is a big difference between the 2009 and 2010 teams. People constantly overrate Artest and underrate Ariza IMO. If you’re going to put a lot of emphasis on playoff performance, Ariza hit 47.6% of his threes that year. Also, the 2010 team looked fatigued and banged up, and that was even more true in 2011.
I think you’re also underestimating the impact of coaching, and comparing position by position doesn’t always work. Otherwise the 2011 Miami Heat beat the 2011 Dallas Mavericks, and OKC would have won with KD, Harden, Westbrook and Ibaka.
Yes, Ariza wasn’t a star, but in many cases I would take a guy like that over a bigger name like an old Carmelo or a Paul George.
Artest was basically done by that point in his career. He more or less held Pierce to his averages in the finals. Ariza was the superior player in 2010 and especially 2011 and onward. Big mistake signing Artest instead of having Ariza plus the MLE from that year. _________________ Damian Lillard shatters Dwight Coward's championship dreams:
I will say this, this team is not as talented as some of the greatest Laker teams, but it has as balanced a Laker championship squad as you will find, post-showtime. You just can not compete with a balanced attack of Kareem, Worthy, Scott, Magic, Coop etc.
But from the 1999-present championship squads, this team has it all. They have the big bodies to use fouls on Shaq. They have the type of big man to even bring Shaq out and pay for not defending outside the paint. There's athleticism. 3 point shooting. Defensively they are the most disciplined and skilled squad on that end for sure.
Overall, you can not match Showtimes talent and balance. Shaq in his prime and Kobe in his prime also was just so great. I think this group is right after that. Probably the third best Lakers team, after showtime's peak and the peak of Shaq/Kobe. I think they would beat a lot of the championship Laker teams that did not have either a peak Shaq, or peak Magic on it, but at full strength they are 3rd best.
I will say this, this team is not as talented as some of the greatest Laker teams, but it has as balanced a Laker championship squad as you will find, post-showtime. You just can not compete with a balanced attack of Kareem, Worthy, Scott, Magic, Coop etc.
But from the 1999-present championship squads, this team has it all. They have the big bodies to use fouls on Shaq. They have the type of big man to even bring Shaq out and pay for not defending outside the paint. There's athleticism. 3 point shooting. Defensively they are the most disciplined and skilled squad on that end for sure.
Overall, you can not match Showtimes talent and balance, IMO. Shaq in his prime and Kobe in his prime also was just so great. I think this group is right after that.
You leapfrogging Kobe-Pau-Odom-Artest-D.Fish-Bynum already??? Do tell
I will say this, this team is not as talented as some of the greatest Laker teams, but it has as balanced a Laker championship squad as you will find, post-showtime. You just can not compete with a balanced attack of Kareem, Worthy, Scott, Magic, Coop etc.
But from the 1999-present championship squads, this team has it all. They have the big bodies to use fouls on Shaq. They have the type of big man to even bring Shaq out and pay for not defending outside the paint. There's athleticism. 3 point shooting. Defensively they are the most disciplined and skilled squad on that end for sure.
Overall, you can not match Showtimes talent and balance, IMO. Shaq in his prime and Kobe in his prime also was just so great. I think this group is right after that.
You leapfrogging Kobe-Pau-Odom-Artest-D.Fish-Bynum already??? Do tell
Those were my favorite Laker teams ever. To go through the downs of 2005-2007. To get back there. To support LO And Bynum, and see the end. It was my favorite team, well the Ariza 2009 version.
I think the difference is AD. As great as Pau was, he would be defended very well by AD, and be contained. And then on the other end, what AD can do defensively. Howard would easily neutralize and disturb Bynum. LO and Rondo, to me, the way playoff Rondo struck this year, very evenly matched up. I think the talent level on offense is more balanced for the 2008-2010 Laker teams, but when you factor the 2 superstar factor (And the better team D skill and talent this team plays) it makes me say this team is a little better. However you can never count against greatness like Kobe or Phil. Phil was the best playoff coach of all time. Kobe at that stage of his career was on a mission to prove he can win without Shaq.
Very hard, but I think I just believe in balance, and I think this Lakers squad shows a level of defensive consistency and balance that rivals the 2008 Celtics, who beat those Laker teams and always gave them a lot of trouble (second series went to 7 games).
I'd put this team on par with the '09 and '10 teams. This team was Lebron, Davis, and a bunch of filler. At various times, people on this board have tried to portray the filler as a pile of diamonds, but if you look at it objectively, it was just filler. In fact, I'll probably remember this as a year in which our primary challengers (Bucks, Clippers) flamed out unexpectedly. The Nuggets had a .630 regular season winning percentage, which was the highest of any team we played. If this had been an 82-game season, that projects to less than 52 wins. Despite going 16-5 in the playoffs, I don't see much of an argument for this being a special team by Laker standards.
I freely admit that I have a jaded attitude toward this team. Yes, I'll take the title. But this was a team that was constructed by Team Lebron, much like the Heat and the Cavs. It feels more like a franchise of Lebron Interplanetary than a Lakers team. Maybe I'll warm up to this squad if some of them actually hang around for a few years. Again, I don't want to overstate this. A title is a title. After all those years in the wilderness, I'm not complaining. However, I don't feel the same way about this team as I did the last five title teams. _________________ Internet Argument Resolved
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