LeBron vs Magic
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Who was the better player?
LeBron
43%
 43%  [ 21 ]
Magic
56%
 56%  [ 27 ]
Total Votes : 48

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activeverb
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:24 pm    Post subject:

BILBJH wrote:
activeverb wrote:
BILBJH wrote:
activeverb wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:


The Cavs even beat that All Time GSW team at the same age you think Magic is "old."

Goodness.


I thought of that. "Old" Lebron put up 27-11-11 with 2 steals and 3 blocks in game 7, and one of those blocks is one of the greatest plays in NBA finals history.

I don't see why Magic's 16-11-20 in a 7-point less is supposed to be more impressive.


I said Magic was better from 20 to 28.

By the time he lost to the Bulls he was a shell of himself and he still put up those numbers.



A shell of himself? Huh?

Like I said, he came in second in MVP voting that year, and he won MVP the year before.


LeBron is a shell of himself and he's still better than almost everyone in the league right now.



Nice talking to you, but I think at this point I will leave fantasyland and return to the real world.

Stay safe and be well.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:28 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:


Nice talking to you, but I think at this point I will leave fantasyland and return to the real world.

Stay safe and be well.


What Lebron was at 28 was greater than what he is now.
Which is still better than all but one or two players.
What Magic was at 28 was greater than what is he was at 32
Which was still MVP contender.
I don't get how this is confusing.
They were on such a high plane that their aging version is still greater than most who ever played.

I just wish prime Magic was able to play against prime Jordan
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 6:51 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Runway8 wrote:
As great as Lebron is, he's kinda bland. Magic Johnson made your jaws drop. Not the fancy razzle dazzle inefficient turnover stuff. He made your jaws dropped while playing efficient basketball. He was amazing. If there is one player in history that I could make 25 yrs old again, it's Magic Johnson. And if there's one GM in NBA history I'd like to forget, it's Magic Johnson.


Oddly enough it is that turnover stuff, exceptional high risk, that made him less overall impactful as a player.

Bordering 20% TO rate is almost unforgiveable out of a guard; barely acceptable for non-ball-handling bigs, especially on just 23 or so USG.

Good to elite PGs are roughly 12%-14%.

Career LBJ is 13.2% on 31.5%USG.


How are you arriving at these numbers? What I see in career stats for Magic is 11.2 assists vs 3.9 TO. Lebron is 7.4 vs 3.5 TO. Lebron has averaged double digit in dimes once in his career, this year.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:18 pm    Post subject:

BILBJH wrote:
activeverb wrote:


Nice talking to you, but I think at this point I will leave fantasyland and return to the real world.

Stay safe and be well.


What Lebron was at 28 was greater than what he is now.
Which is still better than all but one or two players.
What Magic was at 28 was greater than what is he was at 32
Which was still MVP contender.
I don't get how this is confusing.
They were on such a high plane that their aging version is still greater than most who ever played.

I just wish prime Magic was able to play against prime Jordan


I get that "prime" is a vague word that can mean anything anyone wants it to, but in my opinion prime Magic and prime Jordan did play against each other. Their teams just were never at their peaks at the same time.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 6:38 am    Post subject:

Runway8 wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Runway8 wrote:
As great as Lebron is, he's kinda bland. Magic Johnson made your jaws drop. Not the fancy razzle dazzle inefficient turnover stuff. He made your jaws dropped while playing efficient basketball. He was amazing. If there is one player in history that I could make 25 yrs old again, it's Magic Johnson. And if there's one GM in NBA history I'd like to forget, it's Magic Johnson.


Oddly enough it is that turnover stuff, exceptional high risk, that made him less overall impactful as a player.

Bordering 20% TO rate is almost unforgiveable out of a guard; barely acceptable for non-ball-handling bigs, especially on just 23 or so USG.

Good to elite PGs are roughly 12%-14%.

Career LBJ is 13.2% on 31.5%USG.


How are you arriving at these numbers? What I see in career stats for Magic is 11.2 assists vs 3.9 TO. Lebron is 7.4 vs 3.5 TO. Lebron has averaged double digit in dimes once in his career, this year.


Basketball reference.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:53 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:


Good to elite PGs are roughly 12%-14%.



Out of curiosity, I looked at some other top PGs and most are much higher than that, and many are right on par with Magic.

From Magic's era, Isiah Thomas' TO rate was 16.8%, John Stockton's was 20.8%, Norm Nixon's was 16.9%, Maurice Cheeks was 17.5%, Johnny Moore's was 20.8%. T

Jason Kidd was 18.8%, Steve Nash was 19.5%, Chris Paul was 13.2%,, Mark Jackson was 20.9%.

That's everyone I looked at. Of 9 guys, only Paul was in the 12-14% range.

Magic TO rate is about the same (or even lower) than John Stockton, Jason Kidd, Steve Nash, etc. so it doesn't look like he is out of step with other top PGs.

Bird was 12.7% and Pippen was 15.6%, so Lebron seems in line with other other top point forwards as well.

Maybe the TO rate isn't a big deal in comparing them.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 8:00 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:


Good to elite PGs are roughly 12%-14%.



Out of curiosity, I looked at some other top PGs and most are much higher than that, and many are right on par with Magic.

From Magic's era, Isiah Thomas' TO rate was 16.8%, John Stockton's was 20.8%, Norm Nixon's was 16.9%, Maurice Cheeks was 17.5%, Johnny Moore's was 20.8%. T

Jason Kidd was 18.8%, Steve Nash was 19.5%, Chris Paul was 13.2%,, Mark Jackson was 20.9%.

That's everyone I looked at. Of 9 guys, only Paul was in the 12-14% range.

Magic TO rate is about the same (or even lower) than John Stockton, Jason Kidd, Steve Nash, etc. so it doesn't look like he is out of step with other top PGs.

Bird was 12.7% and Pippen was 15.6%, so Lebron seems in line with other other top point forwards as well.

Maybe the TO rate isn't a big deal in comparing them.


I use Chris Paul as the bench mark because he's arguably the best at it.

But I specifically named that TO rate in relation to USG. I don't mind 15%+ TO rates when guys are 30-40 USG.

I expect more TOs when I think there's a level of fatigue that sets in with such a high USG, like Westbrook. But when we're talking 5-8apg guys and the TO rates are better than PGs, it surprises me.

It all goes back to LeBron, with a nearly 50% assist rate, and 15.5%TO rate currently, on over 30%USG this season. Better than Magic.

I also think that's why there's such a large discrepancy in Box Plus Minus and VORP too. Imagine Magic has the TS%, yet the gap between them (1-3 points) is large.

The act of just not being so turnover prone optimizes possessions.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 8:28 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
I get that "prime" is a vague word that can mean anything anyone wants it to, but in my opinion prime Magic and prime Jordan did play against each other. Their teams just were never at their peaks at the same time.


I think that's accurate. In one sense, Magic's career prime was around '87, because that's what everyone remembers best. But he was just 31 in '01, which is typically late in the physical prime of a player. The team roster was just okay, not great, at that point. He took them to the NBA Finals. That's pretty impressive.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 8:40 am    Post subject:

Runway8 wrote:
How are you arriving at these numbers? What I see in career stats for Magic is 11.2 assists vs 3.9 TO. Lebron is 7.4 vs 3.5 TO. Lebron has averaged double digit in dimes once in his career, this year.


Don't confuse Assist to Turnover Ratio with TO%. These are different stats. TO% looks at turnovers in isolation. ATO is a problematic stat for a number of reasons. In this case, Lebron was not a point guard and focused on a lot of things that Magic did not do as well. In particular, Lebron took a lot more shots and scored a lot more. So maybe Magic had a better ATO, but this does not account for the fact that a lot of Lebron's usage involved shooting.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:28 am    Post subject:

Call it bias or nostalgia but no one is above prime Magic Johnson to me. There are less than a handful of players that I feel it was an absolute honor to watch them play and I wear that as a badge of pride. Magic is one but Lebron is not. Lebron is a statistical marvel but as another poster said, he's bland. I never enjoyed watching him play despite the gaudy stats.

Magic was like a multiseasoned thai curry, or a new orleans gumbo. It was like an explosion in your mouth pause. Lebron is a fat, juicy, perfectly cooked, medium-rare filet mignon, but no seasoning.

Sorry guys I haven't had outside food in ages.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:31 am    Post subject:

Ziggy wrote:
Call it bias or nostalgia but no one is above prime Magic Johnson to me. There are less than a handful of players that I feel it was an absolute honor to watch them play and I wear that as a badge of pride. Magic is one but Lebron is not. Lebron is a statistical marvel but as another poster said, he's bland. I never enjoyed watching him play despite the gaudy stats.

Magic was like a multiseasoned thai curry, or a new orleans gumbo. It was like an explosion in your mouth pause. Lebron is a fat, juicy, perfectly cooked, medium-rare filet mignon, but no seasoning.

Sorry guys I haven't had outside food in ages.


You would rather have curry or gumbo than filet mignon?
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:37 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
SuperboyReformed wrote:
BILBJH wrote:
Magic had better shooting efficiency... was a better free throw shooter... had way more assists per 36 minutes, rebounded the same... had a better assist/turnover ratio.

It would be interesting to see how he'd have done on a rebuilding or terrible team during his prime. Personally I think he could have scored 30 PPG

People say he was playing with Hall of Famers but Kareem was old by the time he played with Magic... he won his first title without Kareem or Worthy on the court. He beat Dr. J and Mo Cheeks with Jim Chones at center.

He also won a national championship with only Greg Kelser.

People only focus on the final numbers... which is why chuckers are the way they are maybe.

I think for your thought experiment there was a similar guy...Pistol Pete. And he was on a bad team, and they never did well and he is largely forgotten and not considered in the top10 or anything. Sad, in my opinion. He was basically Magic+Curry in one person.

THe team matters. The situation matters. Right time Right place. If you get the right time in the right place in the most ultra great way, you end up with Michael Jordan.


I find the stat part of misleading. It's those stats to those league averages vs what LeBron did with more modern defenses, and maybe a dropped league TS%.

Then there's pace. Who had more opportunities due to the number of possessions?

LeBron now is basically the modern version of 1991 Magic IMHO, but when you're THAT physically dominant, you don't need to be the 10-12 apg guy (as if he was ever really low in assists anyway?)

I will say that Magic won rings from the jump. Very difficult to do. I also think that LBJ to me isn't really that much different from the HS level guy outside of the athletic differences.

But no way in hell do I think Magic is getting defensive stops against Kawhi or PG in prime.

Do you?


That sums it up.Prime LeBron was DPOY caliber. Magic generally took the opposing team's weakest perimeter player.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:38 am    Post subject:

CandyCanes wrote:
Ziggy wrote:
Call it bias or nostalgia but no one is above prime Magic Johnson to me. There are less than a handful of players that I feel it was an absolute honor to watch them play and I wear that as a badge of pride. Magic is one but Lebron is not. Lebron is a statistical marvel but as another poster said, he's bland. I never enjoyed watching him play despite the gaudy stats.

Magic was like a multiseasoned thai curry, or a new orleans gumbo. It was like an explosion in your mouth pause. Lebron is a fat, juicy, perfectly cooked, medium-rare filet mignon, but no seasoning.

Sorry guys I haven't had outside food in ages.


You would rather have curry or gumbo than filet mignon?


Definitely a good gumbo.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:46 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Runway8 wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:
Runway8 wrote:
As great as Lebron is, he's kinda bland. Magic Johnson made your jaws drop. Not the fancy razzle dazzle inefficient turnover stuff. He made your jaws dropped while playing efficient basketball. He was amazing. If there is one player in history that I could make 25 yrs old again, it's Magic Johnson. And if there's one GM in NBA history I'd like to forget, it's Magic Johnson.


Oddly enough it is that turnover stuff, exceptional high risk, that made him less overall impactful as a player.

Bordering 20% TO rate is almost unforgiveable out of a guard; barely acceptable for non-ball-handling bigs, especially on just 23 or so USG.

Good to elite PGs are roughly 12%-14%.

Career LBJ is 13.2% on 31.5%USG.


How are you arriving at these numbers? What I see in career stats for Magic is 11.2 assists vs 3.9 TO. Lebron is 7.4 vs 3.5 TO. Lebron has averaged double digit in dimes once in his career, this year.


Basketball reference.


That's where I was looking at the stats too. I just look at the basic stuff but I guess that's why I'm not you. LOL!

In my 5th decade now watching basketball. I just stick to basic stat lines, and eye test. Lebron is better overall. But I'll take Magic to run my offense over Bron any day of the week. Bron can be my starting SF though.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:58 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:


I use Chris Paul as the bench mark because he's arguably the best at it.

But I specifically named that TO rate in relation to USG. I don't mind 15%+ TO rates when guys are 30-40 USG.



Yeah, Paul is the golden standard when it comes to PG stats in a lot of ways.

Other than him, though, I don't know that Magic's TO rate and usage rate are much different than most of other top Hall of Fame point guards -- Isiah, Stockton, Nash, and Kidd all seem in the same ballpark as Magic.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:12 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
activeverb wrote:
I get that "prime" is a vague word that can mean anything anyone wants it to, but in my opinion prime Magic and prime Jordan did play against each other. Their teams just were never at their peaks at the same time.


I think that's accurate. In one sense, Magic's career prime was around '87, because that's what everyone remembers best. But he was just 31 in '01, which is typically late in the physical prime of a player. The team roster was just okay, not great, at that point. He took them to the NBA Finals. That's pretty impressive.


That was a real transitional era. On paper, Portland should have beaten the Lakers. But all the secondary guys -- Perkins, Scott, Divac -- had a great series. After that, Portland came into their own. And then the Spurs and Rockets found their way.

It would have been interesting to see what would had happened if Magic didn't contract HIV. He could have ended up a declining star on a lackluster team. That could have played out in a lot of different ways, many of them not good.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:38 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
Mike@LG wrote:


I use Chris Paul as the bench mark because he's arguably the best at it.

But I specifically named that TO rate in relation to USG. I don't mind 15%+ TO rates when guys are 30-40 USG.



Yeah, Paul is the golden standard when it comes to PG stats in a lot of ways.

Other than him, though, I don't know that Magic's TO rate and usage rate are much different than most of other top Hall of Fame point guards -- Isiah, Stockton, Nash, and Kidd all seem in the same ballpark as Magic.
.

And then you've got the new school PGs in Luka #1 Otrg team all time prior to pandemic and Trae Young. Over 30% USG. 15% TO rate.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:43 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
activeverb wrote:
I get that "prime" is a vague word that can mean anything anyone wants it to, but in my opinion prime Magic and prime Jordan did play against each other. Their teams just were never at their peaks at the same time.


I think that's accurate. In one sense, Magic's career prime was around '87, because that's what everyone remembers best. But he was just 31 in '01, which is typically late in the physical prime of a player. The team roster was just okay, not great, at that point. He took them to the NBA Finals. That's pretty impressive.


That was a real transitional era. On paper, Portland should have beaten the Lakers. But all the secondary guys -- Perkins, Scott, Divac -- had a great series. After that, Portland came into their own. And then the Spurs and Rockets found their way.

It would have been interesting to see what would had happened if Magic didn't contract HIV. He could have ended up a declining star on a lackluster team. That could have played out in a lot of different ways, many of them not good.


How good was the comeback version of Magic as a PF?
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:45 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
activeverb wrote:
I get that "prime" is a vague word that can mean anything anyone wants it to, but in my opinion prime Magic and prime Jordan did play against each other. Their teams just were never at their peaks at the same time.


I think that's accurate. In one sense, Magic's career prime was around '87, because that's what everyone remembers best. But he was just 31 in '01, which is typically late in the physical prime of a player. The team roster was just okay, not great, at that point. He took them to the NBA Finals. That's pretty impressive.


That was a real transitional era. On paper, Portland should have beaten the Lakers. But all the secondary guys -- Perkins, Scott, Divac -- had a great series. After that, Portland came into their own. And then the Spurs and Rockets found their way.

It would have been interesting to see what would had happened if Magic didn't contract HIV. He could have ended up a declining star on a lackluster team. That could have played out in a lot of different ways, many of them not good.


I remember being very excited for 1993 when he "came back." Sedale and "promising" rookie Peeler was going to be backcourt off the bench, making our bench the deepest it had been in awhile. Then Karl Malone opened his yappers, and the rebuild was on. Perkins sent midseason to Seattle for Dough Christie and Benoit Benjamin. But that group lead by Sedale had heart man. We scared the crap outta Barkley and the Suns. Sedale was unexpectedly good when we signed him in 92 that I always wondered what could have been if Magic was able to play.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 1:36 pm    Post subject:

Magic's point guard skills revolutionized the game.

This nitpicking of his usage vs. turnover rate is absurd because it's almost the same as criticizing a pioneer of the forward pass for not passing at 60% plus like a modern quarterback.

Any big man with handles can thank Magic for changing the paradigm. No one envisioned someone his size running the court like he did. Whether it's LBJ, Penny, even Giannis... they all owe Magic a debt.

And he did it while maintaining a 61% TS, without shooting threes until the end of his career.

I think CP3 is an amazing talent but even he only shoots at a 58% TS

Magic wasn't the defender Chris was but Chris couldn't rebound at Magic's level

I'd still draft Magic over CP3 if they were born in the same era.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2020 2:20 pm    Post subject:

For the Lakers?

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0 ships               vs            5 ships
recruited THT                     recruited Lebron


Nuff said!
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2020 8:57 am    Post subject:

In an all-time draft, I’m taking LeBron #1 overall to build my franchise.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:17 am    Post subject:

HAWAIIGUY27 wrote:
In an all-time draft, I’m taking LeBron #1 overall to build my franchise.


Agreed. Wasn't around to see Lew Alcindor in HS, but LeBron was absurd.

Admittedly still wish he had a better handle.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2020 12:24 pm    Post subject:

BILBJH wrote:
Magic's point guard skills revolutionized the game.

This nitpicking of his usage vs. turnover rate is absurd because it's almost the same as criticizing a pioneer of the forward pass for not passing at 60% plus like a modern quarterback.

Any big man with handles can thank Magic for changing the paradigm. No one envisioned someone his size running the court like he did. Whether it's LBJ, Penny, even Giannis... they all owe Magic a debt.

And he did it while maintaining a 61% TS, without shooting threes until the end of his career.

I think CP3 is an amazing talent but even he only shoots at a 58% TS

Magic wasn't the defender Chris was but Chris couldn't rebound at Magic's level

I'd still draft Magic over CP3 if they were born in the same era.


I think Mike was just talking about the "point guarding" portion of Magic's game. Dissecting it like an analytic in 2020. Taking account the entire game, no one in their right mind would choose CP3 over Magic. Replace CP3 for Magic, and Showtime gets ZERO rings. So I don't really care too much that Magic's point guard skills isn't top in history, I just know his overall game and effect is tops in history.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2020 2:49 pm    Post subject:

CandyCanes wrote:
activeverb wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
activeverb wrote:
I get that "prime" is a vague word that can mean anything anyone wants it to, but in my opinion prime Magic and prime Jordan did play against each other. Their teams just were never at their peaks at the same time.


I think that's accurate. In one sense, Magic's career prime was around '87, because that's what everyone remembers best. But he was just 31 in '01, which is typically late in the physical prime of a player. The team roster was just okay, not great, at that point. He took them to the NBA Finals. That's pretty impressive.


That was a real transitional era. On paper, Portland should have beaten the Lakers. But all the secondary guys -- Perkins, Scott, Divac -- had a great series. After that, Portland came into their own. And then the Spurs and Rockets found their way.

It would have been interesting to see what would had happened if Magic didn't contract HIV. He could have ended up a declining star on a lackluster team. That could have played out in a lot of different ways, many of them not good.


How good was the comeback version of Magic as a PF?



Magic could still play effectively. However, he really didn't like the PF role. He wanted to run the show, as always, and got into a lot of conflicts with his teammates as a result.
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