Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 1:17 pm Post subject: 1998 Lakers
With Jordan's Last Dance coming out, thought this would be appropriate. That 1998 team invokes a lot of memories for us: the 11-0 start, the only Laker team ever with 4 all stars, Van Exel being permanently replaced by Fisher in the starting lineup, the finals everyone wanted at the time: LA vs Chicago, the smackdown of 61 win Seattle and the sad demise against a team we were supposed to get revenge on: the Jazz. Funny thing is, nobody played the Bulls harder than us. Van Exel would torch the Bulls whether it was Harper or Pippen guarding him. Jones and Kobe actually defended Michael decently. Shaq diesel was a monster and the year before we blew out the Bulls at home even without the Diesel, relying on Elden Campbell who couldnt be stopped by Chicago. I always say, had we kept that 1998 team together and Jerry Buss was willing to pay, we would have 4-peated (2000-2003).
Our team matched up much better against the Bulls than we did against the Jazz. The Bulls had trouble defending some of the smaller, quicker guards and Van Exel was much better against them than he was against Utah. Malone always killed us, and the Jazz pick and roll always killed us.
We also blew out the Bulls in one of the games in 98. But the Bulls were on a second night of a back to back and they actually tried to play an uptempo game in LA (on the other hand our team didn’t have Horry and Van Exel). In the playoffs they probably try to slow it down and the 98 Laker team was a lot worse when the game slowed down.
In the other matchup in 97 we blew a 22 point lead in Chicago and lost in OT. I think the Bulls came back using a full court press in the 4th quarter and it really threw us off our game a lot more than it should have, and Chick Hearn was pretty upset about it. It was so long ago but I think he said he never saw a full court press as effective against an NBA team as it was against that Laker team on that night.
I remember reading Shaq say he was satisfied at first with just making the conference finals that year and playing great in game 4. The Bulls weren’t going to be satisfied with anything less than a ring.
Phil has said that his Bulls teams in the late 90s would struggle to compete with the talent on the 2000 and 2001 Lakers. I think that’s interesting because the 1998 Lakers were even more talented. But I think the team was too young. Kobe wasn’t ready for playoff basketball yet IMO, and a lot would depend on Van Exel and Eddie Jones. Eddie probably disappears if the game slows down.
Mentally our team would have been better off against the Bulls. We didn’t have a history of losing to them like we did with the Jazz.
We might have a shot if Pippen injures his back like he did in game 6 at Utah (doubt that happens though).
Last edited by Steve007 on Sat Apr 18, 2020 2:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
Speaking of Eddie Jones, trading him really hurt the team in 1999. The team won 10 in a row, beat Utah in Utah, and Jerry West still pulled the trigger. Then when the team struggled it probably made the situation with Dennis Rodman even worse.
1. I have never seen a team so hot in the playoffs and going into the playoff fizzle out like those Lakers. They were red hot going into the Utah series and their confidence after what they did to dismantle Seattle was sky high. In the eyes of the national public, the Lakers were the favorites going into the series with Utah and people were already salivating over the Lakers vs Bulls series.
2. This was the 1st of 2 series where I thought the Lakers were going to stomp their opponent and instead got smashed themselves. The 2011 Mavericks series being the other.
3. That Van Exel-Fisher swap really hurt the Lakers here. Fisher was not only nowhere close to Van Exel in talent, but his lack of experience really showed vs Stockton and he looked overmatched in that series. Van Exel, the year before went at Stockton but I believe this was the year Van Exel lost confidence/stopped giving a (bleep) and played like crap vs Utah after he got benched.
4. Horry is literally an all time great when it comes to being a team defender with an uncanny sense of being at the right place at the right time. Against Malone though, his biggest weakness as a defender was evident - one on one against a stronger dude. I would say Campbell would have done a better job defending Malone but god was he awful the year before on offense playing next to O'Neal against Utah - literally shot less than 30% from the field.
5. Kobe was not ready - still too hasty and outplayed by Bryon Russell/Shandon Anderson
6. We were destined to lose 1998, as Steve007 said, we were not ready. But Van Exel (with the series he had in 2003 for Dallas) and a more mature Jones along with Campbell who really helped in guarding the Spurs Twin Towers would have made a huge difference in taking out SAS in 2003.
Joined: 03 Oct 2003 Posts: 8327 Location: Santa Monica
Posted: Sat Apr 18, 2020 2:55 pm Post subject:
Steve007 wrote:
Speaking of Eddie Jones, trading him really hurt the team in 1999. The team won 10 in a row, beat Utah in Utah, and Jerry West still pulled the trigger. Then when the team struggled it probably made the situation with Dennis Rodman even worse.
I've always wondered how much better Eddie Jones could've made the early 2000s teams. His versatility and 2-way play could've really helped, as long as he was cool with coming off the bench.
Those teams played at a really slow pace (just like the rest of the league at the time), and Jones could've helped us up-tempo the game and make things easier on us by blowing teams out more often.
It would've been interesting to see what Phil would've done with both Kobe and Jones on the court at the same time defensively, especially since Phil loved big guards. _________________ Lakers 49ers Chargers Dodgers
Not for nothin, but one of those series against the Jazz at Utah, Van Exel had the ball for a potential game winning shot and Malone hacked the ball out of his grip by slapping Nick's forearm. He got absolutely no ball or even hand on the replays, all wrist/forearm. Chick n Stu said that was a "weak" call, meaning gutless and game-deciding. We'll never know if he would've hit that shot, but Malone was accustomed to getting away with hacking the ball with downward strokes for most of his career. We have a two point loss in both 97 and 98 at Utah so I'm not sure which year it happened, but it didn't help our cause for certain. If he were allowed to shoot and he hit it, we could've taken HCA for at least a game. In one of those two games, Horry hit 7 for 7 from the arc and we still couldn't grab a bleepin win. They were impenetrable at Delta Center. _________________ GOAT MAGIC REEL SEDALE TRIBUTE EDDIE DONX!
The 98 lakers team is my all time favorite and most fun to watch!! I was really sad when they lost to Utah! I was expecting them to win it all that year!!
Joined: 19 Apr 2003 Posts: 22839 Location: La Jolla, San Diego
Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2020 1:43 pm Post subject: Re: 1998 Lakers
x75274 wrote:
With Jordan's Last Dance coming out, thought this would be appropriate. That 1998 team invokes a lot of memories for us: the 11-0 start, the only Laker team ever with 4 all stars, Van Exel being permanently replaced by Fisher in the starting lineup, the finals everyone wanted at the time: LA vs Chicago, the smackdown of 61 win Seattle and the sad demise against a team we were supposed to get revenge on: the Jazz. Funny thing is, nobody played the Bulls harder than us. Van Exel would torch the Bulls whether it was Harper or Pippen guarding him. Jones and Kobe actually defended Michael decently. Shaq diesel was a monster and the year before we blew out the Bulls at home even without the Diesel, relying on Elden Campbell who couldnt be stopped by Chicago. I always say, had we kept that 1998 team together and Jerry Buss was willing to pay, we would have 4-peated (2000-2003).
Nah... Kobe was all-star in 98 by popularity, not because he deserved it. For Kobe to grow, they needed to trade Eddie Jones. Van Excel is another player whose legend grows around here when strolling down memory lane, but he wasn't a consistent player, and "cancun, cancun, cancun" tells you all you needed to know if he was really out there battling. These guys were nervous like the Sacremento Queens, so much so, that Kobe took 4 air balls in the 97 cause nobody else called for the ball. Not much changed in 98 when they went against the Jazz again. I wouldn't put too much stock in some of those Bulls win in the regular season.
In back to back years, we couldn't handle the Jazz, but the Bulls did. And that's that. Doesn't feel right anyway, to say we could have been champions if not for the Jazz. LOL! Then are you really the best?
Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2020 3:43 pm Post subject: Re: 1998 Lakers
Runway8 wrote:
Nah... Kobe was all-star in 98 by popularity, not because he deserved it. For Kobe to grow, they needed to trade Eddie Jones. Van Excel is another player whose legend grows around here when strolling down memory lane, but he wasn't a consistent player, and "cancun, cancun, cancun" tells you all you needed to know if he was really out there battling. These guys were nervous like the Sacremento Queens, so much so, that Kobe took 4 air balls in the 97 cause nobody else called for the ball. Not much changed in 98 when they went against the Jazz again. I wouldn't put too much stock in some of those Bulls win in the regular season.
In back to back years, we couldn't handle the Jazz, but the Bulls did. And that's that. Doesn't feel right anyway, to say we could have been champions if not for the Jazz. LOL! Then are you really the best?
Kobe was going to grow no matter what they did with him. They weren’t going to keep him down. But I think it’s been mentioned that the biggest issue is eventually the team had to pay all these players so somebody was going to have to go.
I wouldn’t mind Van Exel being inconsistent as much if he is the clear #3 or #4 option, kind of like Lamar Odom. You don’t want a player like that as your #2, but as a #3 I think it’s fine. But there were other issues with him. Van Exel wasn’t afraid to shot the ball when it mattered though; that was one reason he was so fun to watch.
Quote:
In back to back years, we couldn't handle the Jazz, but the Bulls did. And that's that. Doesn't feel right anyway, to say we could have been champions if not for the Jazz. LOL! Then are you really the best?
The Bulls were the best, obviously. But sometimes teams win because of favorable matchups, injuries, and luck. Look at Golden State in 2019. We know they were the best, but the Raptors had the lucky breaks. Golden State was the best when they won 73 games, but had some breaks go against them.
If we had beaten the Bulls it might have even been with help from Dennis Rodman, who was partying in Vegas in between Finals games, and his performance suffered against the Jazz.
I think we probably lose to the Bulls. Most of my disappointment is from never seeing the matchup happen. I feel a similar way about the 91 Lakers, 2004 Lakers, and 2008 Lakers, although those teams were more experienced and had a better chance if healthy IMO.
I was always curious about the matchup between the 97 Rockets and the 97 Bulls too. And the 97 Knicks were probably a tougher matchup for the 97 Bulls than Miami was, but some suspensions from the league kept us from seeing that matchup.
Joined: 19 Apr 2003 Posts: 22839 Location: La Jolla, San Diego
Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2020 1:55 pm Post subject:
That is right, I think above all, it was about the money. I don't think Eddie was worth the max the rest of his career, neither was Excel, who got a little less than max in Denver. They would have been severely overpaid 3rd and 4th guys on the Lakers.
That is right, I think above all, it was about the money. I don't think Eddie was worth the max the rest of his career, neither was Excel, who got a little less than max in Denver. They would have been severely overpaid 3rd and 4th guys on the Lakers.
It wasn't a money thing.
The Lakers thought Eddie Jones and Kobe were both shooting guards who couldn't co-exist, and they wanted a traditional small forward who could shoot from long-distance to take the pressure off Shaq inside. Thus, the Glen Rice trade.
In fact, the reason Charlotte traded him to us was because they didn't want to pay too much money. Originally, we expressed a willingness to pay him a big extension, but he never quite panned out here.
Nick was let go for virtually nothing because he was seen as an out-of-control hothead. He argued with the coach and was suspended for pushing a referee.
^I doubt they wanted to give an out of control hothead the kind of contract he ended up getting though, just to be the 4th best player on the team. Van Exel became one of the highest paid point guards in the league.
For what it’s worth Van Exel was already gone when the team picked up Rice. But I don’t care enough to find out what the salary situation was with the team though.
With Jordan's Last Dance coming out, thought this would be appropriate. That 1998 team invokes a lot of memories for us: the 11-0 start, the only Laker team ever with 4 all stars, Van Exel being permanently replaced by Fisher in the starting lineup, the finals everyone wanted at the time: LA vs Chicago, the smackdown of 61 win Seattle and the sad demise against a team we were supposed to get revenge on: the Jazz. Funny thing is, nobody played the Bulls harder than us. Van Exel would torch the Bulls whether it was Harper or Pippen guarding him. Jones and Kobe actually defended Michael decently. Shaq diesel was a monster and the year before we blew out the Bulls at home even without the Diesel, relying on Elden Campbell who couldnt be stopped by Chicago. I always say, had we kept that 1998 team together and Jerry Buss was willing to pay, we would have 4-peated (2000-2003).
Oh man, this brings back memories. this is all true, people will not understand. WE played the Bulls hard, the Bulls had a weakness vs big men if they had any weakness. People were jonesing for that LA vs Bulls, but also Hakeem vs Bulls. Bulls, to be perfectly honest, had a hard time with Elden.
Nick man, such a great player, way ahead of his time. I wont lie when i say ive watched many many years of lakers, but i think i wanted that 98 team to win a ring more so than any other team.
Van Exel needed to go. Too much of a distraction. Plus, I believe he crossed the newly minted Shaq, and that's something you don't do. Kobe wasn't a big fan of his either. As much as I liked Eddie J, I liked Rick Fox more. Better defender (his defense on guys like Peja during those runs is understated), he was steady in his role, and didn't get in Kobe's way. Elden was meh.. nothing to cry over spilt milk. Only guy I wished we'd kept from 96-02 is Ho Grant. He was such a solid piece for us in 01. He was tremendous front court depth and would've allowed Horry (an undersized PF) to continue coming off the bench.
Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 8:44 am Post subject: Re: 1998 Lakers
SuperboyReformed wrote:
x75274 wrote:
With Jordan's Last Dance coming out, thought this would be appropriate. That 1998 team invokes a lot of memories for us: the 11-0 start, the only Laker team ever with 4 all stars, Van Exel being permanently replaced by Fisher in the starting lineup, the finals everyone wanted at the time: LA vs Chicago, the smackdown of 61 win Seattle and the sad demise against a team we were supposed to get revenge on: the Jazz. Funny thing is, nobody played the Bulls harder than us. Van Exel would torch the Bulls whether it was Harper or Pippen guarding him. Jones and Kobe actually defended Michael decently. Shaq diesel was a monster and the year before we blew out the Bulls at home even without the Diesel, relying on Elden Campbell who couldnt be stopped by Chicago. I always say, had we kept that 1998 team together and Jerry Buss was willing to pay, we would have 4-peated (2000-2003).
Oh man, this brings back memories. this is all true, people will not understand. WE played the Bulls hard, the Bulls had a weakness vs big men if they had any weakness. People were jonesing for that LA vs Bulls, but also Hakeem vs Bulls. Bulls, to be perfectly honest, had a hard time with Elden.
Nick man, such a great player, way ahead of his time. I wont lie when i say ive watched many many years of lakers, but i think i wanted that 98 team to win a ring more so than any other team.
I tend to believe the '98 team was doomed to fail in the short run but would have been a great learning opportunity to mature and grow together. I dont there is any way to have prevented the defeat to the Jazz at the time and even had they somehow by fluke made it to the finals (i.e. The Rockets taking them out 1st round or Malone gets injured), the Lakers still are not beating the Bulls when the chips are down when the Lakers would have been just happy to make it to the finals while the Bulls know this is likely their last run together.
As I said before, the 4 peat didnt mean we would win anything in the 90s but meant we would have taken out the Spurs in 2003 (where the margins between the 2 teams were razor thin and the Spurs STILL had a hard time closing us out in the 4th quarter) and all 3 players (Van Exel, Jones and Campbell) we gave up would all be huge against the Spurs.
First Van Exel: If you guys remember, Van Exel was huge that year in the playoffs (the best clutch shot maker I have ever seen barring Jordan - nobody has more ice in their veins than this guy and it was almost superhuman how Nick was in crunch time consistently and more impressive from the fact that he was never a superstar but he was one in the biggest moments) and was the biggest reason the Mavericks took down the Kings in the WCSF. He would be critical as the 6th man where our lack of scoring other Kobe and Shaq hurt us tremendously that year. Secondly Jones, a dependable 3rd scorer and the perfect guy to stick on a young inexperienced Parker or Ginobili with his veteran defensive savvy, lateral quickness and wingspan. More importantly, Jones would have been in his early 30s meaning his habit of playoff choking should be minimized as he would have grown up and been a multiple time champion. Lastly, Campbell. The perfect guy in terms of bulk and length to stick on Duncan or Robinson when Shaq needs a rest. Our weakness was always backup center during the Shaq-Kobe era. Campbell, especially against the Spurs would be ideal.
Joined: 19 Jul 2002 Posts: 15403 Location: Oak Park
Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 11:51 am Post subject:
I dunno. I always viewed that period of Lakers management as some of the best. They were insanely good at acquiring draft talent, they were great in signing free agents, and they were really good at trading.
But one thing that I really thought they were good at was cutting the losers loose. This included ced, elden, and nick. Bad attitude was not tolerated or allowed to spread / fester. And I thought that while some of these moves were costly in the short term, they really allowed our team to grow and cultivate an identity. 3 titles. I mean 3 straight titles. That’s really all that matters.
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