Do the Lakers win the 2004 Finals if Malone Didn't Get Hurt?
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Runway8
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2020 7:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Do the Lakers win the 2004 Finals if Malone Didn't Get Hurt?

yinoma2001 wrote:
Thoughts?

I've been re-watching Malone clips from that season and man was he good at his age/mileage. I know our depth wasn't the greatest being top heavy and with 2 older guys in Malone/GP, but could we have beaten the Pistons if Malone was healthy?


I've said this before... maybe Malone can swing one or two games, but 3 games? It's not like the series was close, and the only win required a Kobe game winner. Malone does not make Kobe's shot more accurate. He was abysmal, despite the game winner, that was his worst finals. I recall 37% for the series. It's the elephant in the room nobody wants to address when talkng about this series. Kobe was bad. Kobe and Shaq should give the 40 yr old their max money if that was the case.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2020 8:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Do the Lakers win the 2004 Finals if Malone Didn't Get Hurt?

Runway8 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Thoughts?

I've been re-watching Malone clips from that season and man was he good at his age/mileage. I know our depth wasn't the greatest being top heavy and with 2 older guys in Malone/GP, but could we have beaten the Pistons if Malone was healthy?


I've said this before... maybe Malone can swing one or two games, but 3 games? It's not like the series was close, and the only win required a Kobe game winner. Malone does not make Kobe's shot more accurate. He was abysmal, despite the game winner, that was his worst finals. I recall 37% for the series. It's the elephant in the room nobody wants to address when talkng about this series. Kobe was bad. Kobe and Shaq should give the 40 yr old their max money if that was the case.


The one game Malone could have swung was game 4 if he played until the end, which if he did would make it a 2-2 series at that moment. We lost that going down 3-1 and then game 5 by 13pts without him as well, and that was it. But with him it's 2-2 and 3 games which are anyone's to take. It's not as clear cut as you make it out to be
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2020 8:28 pm    Post subject:

Game 1 - Joe Crawford/Bob Delaney/Bernie Fryer

FT attempts - DET 30, LA 18 - Game at Staples Center, LA, CA

Game 2 - Joe DeRosa/Steve Javie/Bennett Salvatore

FT attempts - DET 31, LA 25 - Game at Staples Center, LA, CA

Kobe takes 5 ft attempts on 27 shots from the field

Game 3 - Mike Callahan/Danny Crawford/Ron Garretson

FT attempts - DET 30, LA 13 at The Palace, Detroit, MI

Shaq takes 2 ft attempts on 14 shots from the field

Kobe takes 3 ft attempts on 13 shots from the field

Game 4 - Dick Bavetta/Jack Nies/Eddie F Rush

FT attempts - DET 41, LA 22 at the Palace, Detroit, MI

Kobe takes 2 ft attempts on 25 shots from the field

Game 5 - Joe Crawford (again)/Bennett Salvatore (again)/Bernie Fryer (again)

FT attempts - DET 39, Lakers 33 at the Palace, Detroit, MI

There were opening jump ball violation (a turnover) called for no reason in Game 1, 2 and 4 of this series as indicated below.

Lakers didn't shoot more FT's than DET in any of the game despite having the most dominant duo of all time coming off a Threepeat.

This series would not have gone LA's way no matter what they did, they never had a chance.

2004 NBA Finals

Game 1 Play-By-Play

• Jump to: 1st | 2nd | 3rd | 4th
scoring play tie lead change
1st Q
Time Detroit Score LA Lakers
12:00.0 Start of 1st quarter
12:00.0 Jump ball: S. O'Neal vs. B. Wallace

11:59.0 0-0 Violation by S. O'Neal (jump ball)

Game 2 Play-By-Play

• Jump to: 1st | 2nd | 3rd | 4th | OT
scoring play tie lead change
1st Q
Time Detroit Score LA Lakers
12:00.0 Start of 1st quarter
12:00.0 Jump ball: S. O'Neal vs. B. Wallace

12:00.0 0-0 Violation by S. O'Neal (jump ball)

Game 4 Play-By-Play

• Jump to: 1st | 2nd | 3rd | 4th
scoring play tie lead change
1st Q
Time LA Lakers Score Detroit
12:00.0 Start of 1st quarter
12:00.0 Jump ball: B. Wallace vs. S. O'Neal

12:00.0 0-0 Violation by S. O'Neal (jump ball)
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2020 1:29 am    Post subject:

x75274 wrote:
Steve007 wrote:
x75274 wrote:
I lean heavily towards no and going into that series I thought like almost everyone, that LA was going to beat the snot out of Detroit especially after we had taken out SAS after being down 0-2 in the WCSF. Mailman was great/awesome in his role for us but he would have had raise his level to such an extent that far exceeded his role for us. Watching that series live and then hearing Kobe talking about the reasons why they lost to the Pistons, it was a fundamental issue of not being able to break the Pistons trap defense and score consistently and efficiently. Truth be told, I feel the Pistons had another gear they could reach that the Lakers could not because of their defense and the Lakers lack of preparation for dealing with the Pistons (with or without Malone). This is weird for me because the Lakers had just dealt with statistically the greatest Spurs version in term of their defense and beat the Spurs decisively, leaving no doubt who was the superior team.

I personally think the bigger what if is if you take the 2010 Lakers motivation and chemistry onto the 2011 Lakers version (especially you Pau Gasol excluding Andrew Bynum and keeping him at his 2011 level since he was better in 2011 than 2010) to go up against the 2011 Mavericks, who would win.


I think the Spurs would have stomped us too if Malone was as banged up in that series as he was in the Finals. Slave Medvedenko playing against Tim Duncan. Need I say more?

Our team couldn’t defend the Pistons either. With Malone in there the defense/rebounding would be significantly better. Rasheed Wallace had it way too easy in that series.


There were a couple of weird things that happened.
1. R. Wallace even in game 1 showed an almost disregard and disrespect for Malone and gave off the attitude of 'I know I am better than you' something ironically Garnett and Duncan never did and those 2 are definitely better than Wallace. Was Malone truly banged up in Game 1 or did Wallace make him irrelevant? I'm not sure. It could be because Wallace in his Blazer days had taken out the last real chance for the Jazz to win the title in 1998-1999 and so he feels he is better than Malone, especially a 40 year old Malone.
2. If Malone could score like he did that one playoff game against the Rockets when he scored 30, we could have taken Game 4 and bought it back to LA for Game 6.
3. Personally I think even with Malone giving us that kind of vintage performance, game 6 is where it all ends for us that year unless Shaq goes off like he had been doing and Kobe finally wakes up and puts in a game 2 like performance.


Malone got injured late in the conference finals. In game 6 he injured his right knee in a collision with Fisher, and it was the same knee Malone injured months earlier. By game 1 against Detroit he was already banged up. And he got worse from there, aggravating the injury in game 2.

Phil Jackson said Malone had his knee drained after the Minnesota series and it became sore and impossible to bend. He also said Malone couldn’t slide laterally to defend screen and roll which he did well in the Spurs series, and that he was ineffective going to the basket.

Fwiw Rasheed did pick up 2 fouls against him in the 1st quarter of game 1, but yeah Rasheed could probably tell that Malone wasn’t himself.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2020 1:45 am    Post subject:

Going to game 6 would have given the team another chance to make adjustments and figure out the Pistons players weaknesses and tendencies. And it would have give Kobe another chance to catch fire. Of course, it’s easier to turn things around with a healthy Malone so it’s not such a mismatch.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2020 1:54 am    Post subject: Re: Do the Lakers win the 2004 Finals if Malone Didn't Get Hurt?

Runway8 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Thoughts?

I've been re-watching Malone clips from that season and man was he good at his age/mileage. I know our depth wasn't the greatest being top heavy and with 2 older guys in Malone/GP, but could we have beaten the Pistons if Malone was healthy?


I've said this before... maybe Malone can swing one or two games, but 3 games? It's not like the series was close, and the only win required a Kobe game winner. Malone does not make Kobe's shot more accurate. He was abysmal, despite the game winner, that was his worst finals. I recall 37% for the series. It's the elephant in the room nobody wants to address when talkng about this series. Kobe was bad. Kobe and Shaq should give the 40 yr old their max money if that was the case.


Yes one player can swing the outcome of a series, especially if his backup is injured too and Slava Medvedenko makes Rasheed Wallace look unstoppable

Imagine a healthy Malone and it’s Rasheed Wallace with the knee injury instead. It’s just one good player but to me that totally changes the series. Suddenly the Pistons frontcourt looks a lot weaker.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 8:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Do the Lakers win the 2004 Finals if Malone Didn't Get Hurt?

Runway8 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Thoughts?

I've been re-watching Malone clips from that season and man was he good at his age/mileage. I know our depth wasn't the greatest being top heavy and with 2 older guys in Malone/GP, but could we have beaten the Pistons if Malone was healthy?


I've said this before... maybe Malone can swing one or two games, but 3 games? It's not like the series was close, and the only win required a Kobe game winner. Malone does not make Kobe's shot more accurate. He was abysmal, despite the game winner, that was his worst finals. I recall 37% for the series. It's the elephant in the room nobody wants to address when talkng about this series. Kobe was bad. Kobe and Shaq should give the 40 yr old their max money if that was the case.


Not sure what room you're occupying, but that series is one of the first things that is brought up to bring Kobe's legacy down (along with him "quitting" in Game 7 vs the Suns in 2006, and the 2008 Finals). What ISN'T brought up is how...

1) The Pistons are arguably historically the greatest defensive team of all time (aka, people should just give them their due instead of pretending they were another Jason Kidd Nets type team).

2) Kobe was playing in a season any other player would've sat out because of what he was going through. He came into camp out of shape and the skinniest he had been since his rookie year. He worked his conditioning up throughout the season but wasn't able to build up his usual mass through weight training. And at the end of the season he just ran out of gas against a historically great defensive team. Put 2001, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, etc. Kobe in place of that 2004 Kobe and it's a whole different series.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 9:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Do the Lakers win the 2004 Finals if Malone Didn't Get Hurt?

Batguano wrote:
Runway8 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Thoughts?

I've been re-watching Malone clips from that season and man was he good at his age/mileage. I know our depth wasn't the greatest being top heavy and with 2 older guys in Malone/GP, but could we have beaten the Pistons if Malone was healthy?


I've said this before... maybe Malone can swing one or two games, but 3 games? It's not like the series was close, and the only win required a Kobe game winner. Malone does not make Kobe's shot more accurate. He was abysmal, despite the game winner, that was his worst finals. I recall 37% for the series. It's the elephant in the room nobody wants to address when talkng about this series. Kobe was bad. Kobe and Shaq should give the 40 yr old their max money if that was the case.


Not sure what room you're occupying, but that series is one of the first things that is brought up to bring Kobe's legacy down (along with him "quitting" in Game 7 vs the Suns in 2006, and the 2008 Finals). What ISN'T brought up is how...

1) The Pistons are arguably historically the greatest defensive team of all time (aka, people should just give them their due instead of pretending they were another Jason Kidd Nets type team).

2) Kobe was playing in a season any other player would've sat out because of what he was going through. He came into camp out of shape and the skinniest he had been since his rookie year. He worked his conditioning up throughout the season but wasn't able to build up his usual mass through weight training. And at the end of the season he just ran out of gas against a historically great defensive team. Put 2001, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, etc. Kobe in place of that 2004 Kobe and it's a whole different series.


They were a good defensive team but lets not go overboard. This is the same Pistons team that loss to the "just another" J Kidd team, 4-0 the year before.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Do the Lakers win the 2004 Finals if Malone Didn't Get Hurt?

Lucky_Shot wrote:
Batguano wrote:
Runway8 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Thoughts?

I've been re-watching Malone clips from that season and man was he good at his age/mileage. I know our depth wasn't the greatest being top heavy and with 2 older guys in Malone/GP, but could we have beaten the Pistons if Malone was healthy?


I've said this before... maybe Malone can swing one or two games, but 3 games? It's not like the series was close, and the only win required a Kobe game winner. Malone does not make Kobe's shot more accurate. He was abysmal, despite the game winner, that was his worst finals. I recall 37% for the series. It's the elephant in the room nobody wants to address when talkng about this series. Kobe was bad. Kobe and Shaq should give the 40 yr old their max money if that was the case.


Not sure what room you're occupying, but that series is one of the first things that is brought up to bring Kobe's legacy down (along with him "quitting" in Game 7 vs the Suns in 2006, and the 2008 Finals). What ISN'T brought up is how...

1) The Pistons are arguably historically the greatest defensive team of all time (aka, people should just give them their due instead of pretending they were another Jason Kidd Nets type team).

2) Kobe was playing in a season any other player would've sat out because of what he was going through. He came into camp out of shape and the skinniest he had been since his rookie year. He worked his conditioning up throughout the season but wasn't able to build up his usual mass through weight training. And at the end of the season he just ran out of gas against a historically great defensive team. Put 2001, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, etc. Kobe in place of that 2004 Kobe and it's a whole different series.


They were a good defensive team but lets not go overboard. This is the same Pistons team that loss to the "just another" J Kidd team, 4-0 the year before.


No it isn't. There's plenty of stats that support that claim:

https://www.reddit.com/r/DetroitPistons/comments/7spahd/stats_proving_2004_pistons_are_the_greatest/

In 2003 they didn't have Rasheed, who AT WORST is a Top 3 player on that team (could be argued #1 just based on pure all-around talent), and Tayshaun Prince was just a rookie (who made a huge leap his sophomore).

Not to mention they replaced Rick Carlisle (who's a great coach) with Larry Brown (who's a HOF coach).

Even if all those things weren't true and the team was exactly the same on paper, it doesn't mean that they were the same team. That's like me saying that the Kobe/Gasol Lakers sucked because they got swept in 2011... But the point is moot because they were nowhere close to being the same team...

Funny how you mention the 2003 version to support your argument but completely ignore that the very next season (2005) they took the Dynasty Spurs with the Big 3 IN THEIR PRIMES to a Game 7 that could've gone either way.

So those Pistons teams in their peak beat a Superteam version of the dynasty Shaq/Kobe Lakers and ALMOST beat a Superteam version of the dynasty Spurs. Aka the two greatest dynasties of that era.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:46 pm    Post subject:

The NBA threw the East a bone that year. That was the last year hand checking was allowed but the pistons got to play old school while we got the new hands off rules.

The NBA wanted a perimeter oriented game and they went all in during that series. It worked quite well too.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:54 pm    Post subject:

LakersRGolden wrote:
The NBA threw the East a bone that year. That was the last year hand checking was allowed but the pistons got to play old school while we got the new hands off rules.

The NBA wanted a perimeter oriented game and they went all in during that series. It worked quite well too.


Damn.  Some of you really don't want to give that team any credit. You either want to put it all on Kobe or put it all on tinfoil conspiracies.

Defensive-minded teams always get the benefit of the doubt on that end over other teams. That's the way it's always been. See: Bad Boy Pistons, 90's Ewing/Riley Knicks, 2004-2005 Pistons, 2000's Spurs, 2008 Celtics...
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:08 am    Post subject:

I haven't seen those games in a while, but what I remember, when healthy Malone was a difference maker that season. As others noted in that finals we were really weak at the 4 do to injury and Wallace was a very big piece for them and the inability to check him in any meaningful hurt the Lakers.

Locker room and fatigue was also a big part of things, so it's hard to say, but it seems like most of us agree if Malone and Grant had health it would have been a very close series.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:31 am    Post subject:

It’s true, the officiating was suspect that year. I’ve always believed that true champions must be able to overcome that issue, and the Lakers just couldn’t get it done that year. And yes, Malone and Grant injuries made it impossible.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 6:12 am    Post subject: Re: Do the Lakers win the 2004 Finals if Malone Didn't Get Hurt?

Batguano wrote:
Lucky_Shot wrote:
Batguano wrote:
Runway8 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Thoughts?

I've been re-watching Malone clips from that season and man was he good at his age/mileage. I know our depth wasn't the greatest being top heavy and with 2 older guys in Malone/GP, but could we have beaten the Pistons if Malone was healthy?


I've said this before... maybe Malone can swing one or two games, but 3 games? It's not like the series was close, and the only win required a Kobe game winner. Malone does not make Kobe's shot more accurate. He was abysmal, despite the game winner, that was his worst finals. I recall 37% for the series. It's the elephant in the room nobody wants to address when talkng about this series. Kobe was bad. Kobe and Shaq should give the 40 yr old their max money if that was the case.


Not sure what room you're occupying, but that series is one of the first things that is brought up to bring Kobe's legacy down (along with him "quitting" in Game 7 vs the Suns in 2006, and the 2008 Finals). What ISN'T brought up is how...

1) The Pistons are arguably historically the greatest defensive team of all time (aka, people should just give them their due instead of pretending they were another Jason Kidd Nets type team).

2) Kobe was playing in a season any other player would've sat out because of what he was going through. He came into camp out of shape and the skinniest he had been since his rookie year. He worked his conditioning up throughout the season but wasn't able to build up his usual mass through weight training. And at the end of the season he just ran out of gas against a historically great defensive team. Put 2001, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, etc. Kobe in place of that 2004 Kobe and it's a whole different series.


They were a good defensive team but lets not go overboard. This is the same Pistons team that loss to the "just another" J Kidd team, 4-0 the year before.


No it isn't. There's plenty of stats that support that claim:

https://www.reddit.com/r/DetroitPistons/comments/7spahd/stats_proving_2004_pistons_are_the_greatest/

In 2003 they didn't have Rasheed, who AT WORST is a Top 3 player on that team (could be argued #1 just based on pure all-around talent), and Tayshaun Prince was just a rookie (who made a huge leap his sophomore).

Not to mention they replaced Rick Carlisle (who's a great coach) with Larry Brown (who's a HOF coach).

Even if all those things weren't true and the team was exactly the same on paper, it doesn't mean that they were the same team. That's like me saying that the Kobe/Gasol Lakers sucked because they got swept in 2011... But the point is moot because they were nowhere close to being the same team...

Funny how you mention the 2003 version to support your argument but completely ignore that the very next season (2005) they took the Dynasty Spurs with the Big 3 IN THEIR PRIMES to a Game 7 that could've gone either way.

So those Pistons teams in their peak beat a Superteam version of the dynasty Shaq/Kobe Lakers and ALMOST beat a Superteam version of the dynasty Spurs. Aka the two greatest dynasties of that era.


Good arguments but the Pistons were one of the worst team to win a championship in the last 20 years. Seriously look at the list of Champions:

Lakers Warriors Spurs Celtics Heat Cavs Raptors Mavs Pistons (maybe they are better than the Mavs or Raptors, I don't think so but they are definitely bottom 3)

Malone was still a beast even at 38. There is no question in my mind we win with him on the team.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:38 am    Post subject:

I'd say yes under normal circumstances, but those weren't. Detroit shot a record 10 more FTs per game. That's a god awful deficit for any team, I don't care how good, to overcome. The deficit was at 171-122. Then you add in Shaq's 4 straight opening tap violations (a thing we've probably seen four times since 2004) and they were allowed to ruff us up and we got rookie status all of a sudden. I don't think the refs wanted to hear about them helping the Lakers "steal" another title right after getting 2 years of noise due to 02 Gm 6. Only thing I can do is guess.

If we had a perfectly healthy Malone, we might've scratched out the vital single win at Detroit that they would've needed to push it to a 7th game at Staples, but blowing Game 1 like they did put them behind the 8 ball. They barely won Gm 2 w/ Karl's knee tweaking in that game. Perhaps they take us to 7 and still win, hard to say, but without Malone healthy, everything else was skewed and lopsided and they lost Gm 1 before Malone's knee got injured again. With that, they could focus all of their attention on Shaq and allow Kobe to shoot poorly. If the Lakers were to win the series while overcoming that FT disparity, maybe they would've needed both healthy Malone for the rest of the series AND a standard shooting performance for Kobe, but neither happened. There's no hope, however, when you're relegated to playing Medvedenko and with Shaq/Kobe being at serious odds during that series. Losing Game 1 hurt more than it was thought at the time.

They might've actually overachieved just to get past SA the way they did. After we lost both of the first two at SA, that series had the smell of the 2003 series where we lost to em, but somehow we swept them and it took a miracle shot to get one of those wins. Then again, reffing wasn't the same as it was against Detroit, matchups weren't the same, Kobe wasn't the same, and Malone hadn't yet re-aggravated the injury since returning in March.

With a healthy Malone and everything else the same, it was probably a 6 or 7 gm series with Detroit still advantaged and capable of winning at Staples. The Pisstons were good enough to win a Gm 7 at Staples for sure. There's no way of saying how that series would've unfolded even if we pushed them back to LA.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 1:16 pm    Post subject:

Batguano wrote:
LakersRGolden wrote:
The NBA threw the East a bone that year. That was the last year hand checking was allowed but the pistons got to play old school while we got the new hands off rules.

The NBA wanted a perimeter oriented game and they went all in during that series. It worked quite well too.


Damn.  Some of you really don't want to give that team any credit. You either want to put it all on Kobe or put it all on tinfoil conspiracies.

Defensive-minded teams always get the benefit of the doubt on that end over other teams. That's the way it's always been. See: Bad Boy Pistons, 90's Ewing/Riley Knicks, 2004-2005 Pistons, 2000's Spurs, 2008 Celtics...


When you go back and watch the games, the reffing seems "normal" on the Laker's side because the league has transitioned to that kind of officiating. What you would need to do is watch a bunch of 2004 games and you will see that it was anomolous for that time very much like the 2006 finals that coincidentally went to the East.

The changes they made in summer 2004 were a major step to the kinder gentler NBA we have today. The problem is they implemented them 5 games early without telling anyone.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:12 pm    Post subject:

LakerLanny wrote:
Game 1 - Joe Crawford/Bob Delaney/Bernie Fryer

FT attempts - DET 30, LA 18 - Game at Staples Center, LA, CA

Game 2 - Joe DeRosa/Steve Javie/Bennett Salvatore

FT attempts - DET 31, LA 25 - Game at Staples Center, LA, CA

Kobe takes 5 ft attempts on 27 shots from the field

Game 3 - Mike Callahan/Danny Crawford/Ron Garretson

FT attempts - DET 30, LA 13 at The Palace, Detroit, MI

Shaq takes 2 ft attempts on 14 shots from the field

Kobe takes 3 ft attempts on 13 shots from the field

Game 4 - Dick Bavetta/Jack Nies/Eddie F Rush

FT attempts - DET 41, LA 22 at the Palace, Detroit, MI

Kobe takes 2 ft attempts on 25 shots from the field

Game 5 - Joe Crawford (again)/Bennett Salvatore (again)/Bernie Fryer (again)

FT attempts - DET 39, Lakers 33 at the Palace, Detroit, MI

There were opening jump ball violation (a turnover) called for no reason in Game 1, 2 and 4 of this series as indicated below.

Lakers didn't shoot more FT's than DET in any of the game despite having the most dominant duo of all time coming off a Threepeat.

This series would not have gone LA's way no matter what they did, they never had a chance.

2004 NBA Finals

Game 1 Play-By-Play

• Jump to: 1st | 2nd | 3rd | 4th
scoring play tie lead change
1st Q
Time Detroit Score LA Lakers
12:00.0 Start of 1st quarter
12:00.0 Jump ball: S. O'Neal vs. B. Wallace

11:59.0 0-0 Violation by S. O'Neal (jump ball)

Game 2 Play-By-Play

• Jump to: 1st | 2nd | 3rd | 4th | OT
scoring play tie lead change
1st Q
Time Detroit Score LA Lakers
12:00.0 Start of 1st quarter
12:00.0 Jump ball: S. O'Neal vs. B. Wallace

12:00.0 0-0 Violation by S. O'Neal (jump ball)

Game 4 Play-By-Play

• Jump to: 1st | 2nd | 3rd | 4th
scoring play tie lead change
1st Q
Time LA Lakers Score Detroit
12:00.0 Start of 1st quarter
12:00.0 Jump ball: B. Wallace vs. S. O'Neal

12:00.0 0-0 Violation by S. O'Neal (jump ball)


Completely agree with this analysis.

But watching those games tells a more lopsided story.

There were too many momentum swing calls against the Lakers.

And the fact Shaq can’t even look at Billups and not be called a foul. It was ridiculous.

NBA won’t let Lakers win that year since Kobe was the front page news for negative publicity.

If they call it fair, I think it would still be a competitive series, but Lakers take it in 6 even without Malone.

The Lakers had the matchup favor against Detroit.
But the Ref never let that materialize.

And the Lakers kinda self destroyed itself when it got tough.
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LakerLanny
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:31 pm    Post subject:

Nonamehero wrote:


Completely agree with this analysis.

But watching those games tells a more lopsided story.

There were too many momentum swing calls against the Lakers.

And the fact Shaq can’t even look at Billups and not be called a foul. It was ridiculous.

NBA won’t let Lakers win that year since Kobe was the front page news for negative publicity.

If they call it fair, I think it would still be a competitive series, but Lakers take it in 6 even without Malone.

The Lakers had the matchup favor against Detroit.
But the Ref never let that materialize.

And the Lakers kinda self destroyed itself when it got tough.


I really don't see how anyone could watch that series and not see what was going on.

I have not seen a single jump ball violation called on the opening tap of a playoff game ever since.

Kobe and Shaq at their most dominant and we shoot LESS ft's in every single game?

Come on Man.

It was obviously rigged, for whatever reason the league was going to do everything in the power not to let the Lakers win 4 in a row and they were able to do it using some of the worst officials in the history of the NBA.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 6:01 pm    Post subject:

What bugs me more than this is 2003 vs the Spurs. We came back from 18 behind in the 4th and then Horrys 3 rims out. We lost all momentum and they won game 6 in LA. If that shot goes in, i think we win a 4peat
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:05 pm    Post subject:

LakerLanny wrote:
Nonamehero wrote:


Completely agree with this analysis.

But watching those games tells a more lopsided story.

There were too many momentum swing calls against the Lakers.

And the fact Shaq can’t even look at Billups and not be called a foul. It was ridiculous.

NBA won’t let Lakers win that year since Kobe was the front page news for negative publicity.

If they call it fair, I think it would still be a competitive series, but Lakers take it in 6 even without Malone.

The Lakers had the matchup favor against Detroit.
But the Ref never let that materialize.

And the Lakers kinda self destroyed itself when it got tough.


I really don't see how anyone could watch that series and not see what was going on.

I have not seen a single jump ball violation called on the opening tap of a playoff game ever since.

Kobe and Shaq at their most dominant and we shoot LESS ft's in every single game?

Come on Man.

It was obviously rigged, for whatever reason the league was going to do everything in the power not to let the Lakers win 4 in a row and they were able to do it using some of the worst officials in the history of the NBA.


Disagree. Shaq/Kobe were at their most dominant in 2001.

In 2004 Kobe came into camp out of shape and never was able to regain his optimal conditioning throughout the season. Shaq was already suffering from the arthritic big toe and was fatter than he was during his 2000 MVP season. He didn't have anywhere close to the same explosiveness around the rim. I'm sure you'll pull up his stats from the series to prove otherwise, but he got those numbers being single-coveraged by an undersized Ben Wallace as was part of their defensive strategy.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:27 pm    Post subject:

LakerLanny wrote:

I really don't see how anyone could watch that series and not see what was going on.

I have not seen a single jump ball violation called on the opening tap of a playoff game ever since.

Kobe and Shaq at their most dominant and we shoot LESS ft's in every single game?

Come on Man.

It was obviously rigged, for whatever reason the league was going to do everything in the power not to let the Lakers win 4 in a row and they were able to do it using some of the worst officials in the history of the NBA.


I still think the Malone injury was really big. Beating San Antonio and Minnesota would have been much tougher without Malone and Grant. Who defends Duncan and KG?

BUT you definitely have a GREAT point. The team had to beat both the Pistons and the refs.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 9:57 pm    Post subject:

[quote="Steve007"]
LakerLanny wrote:

I still think the Malone injury was really big. Beating San Antonio and Minnesota would have been much tougher without Malone and Grant. Who defends Duncan and KG?

BUT you definitely have a GREAT point. The team had to beat both the Pistons and the refs.

I love watching Malone pull the chair out from under Duncan in the post. Awesome technique.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 10:44 pm    Post subject:

We would have definitely won. I remember watching Sheed sag off Slava right into Shaq's lap and being infuriated. Not having a healthy Malone changed that series.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2020 4:27 am    Post subject:

With Malone playing, the Lakers beat the Spurs, who were a better team than the Pistons, as they proved in the Finals a year later. So yeah, I'm inclined to think they could've won with Malone. That team had no depth, so Malone going down was devastating. How many teams have ever been forced to give a player the caliber of Slava significant run in a championship series? And Malone was the heart and soul of that team. He was driven by 20 years' worth of championship hunger while Kobe and Shaq were dealing with their personal stuff.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2020 7:48 am    Post subject:

GOODRICH25 wrote:
What bugs me more than this is 2003 vs the Spurs. We came back from 18 behind in the 4th and then Horrys 3 rims out. We lost all momentum and they won game 6 in LA. If that shot goes in, i think we win a 4peat


Horry 2/38 from trey in 03 playoffs. After he finally missed a clutch shot, we thought he was all dried up. However, we get rid of him, the Spurs take our sloppies as they later did with Pau, and he winds up hitting a title clincher for THEM in 05.
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