Would you officially retire MPLS. HOFs numbers and if yes, which ones and why?

 
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Which players from the 1st NBA dynasty should have their numbers retired?
George Mikan
46%
 46%  [ 7 ]
Jim Pollard
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Vern Mikkelsen
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Slater Martin
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Clyde Lovellette
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
All of them
20%
 20%  [ 3 ]
None of them
6%
 6%  [ 1 ]
Keep the MPLS banner
26%
 26%  [ 4 ]
Total Votes : 15

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GOODRICH25
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:39 am    Post subject: Would you officially retire MPLS. HOFs numbers and if yes, which ones and why?

I've had this problem for a while, that MPLS. HOFs banner bothers me (and the one with the 5 championships on it as well), i find it disrespectful for both the individuals whos names are on it and the franchise itself. It gives off the vibe that they are lesser legends than their Los Angeles counterparts. Same goes for the championship banner, we count 16 titles so we should have 16 banners, not 12 (with one banner carrying 5), just because they happened in a different city. In my opinion, those should be abandoned and then looked into who of that group should have his number up there. So here are mine:

-George Mikan #99
5x NBA champion (all with Lakers), 2x NBL champion (one of them with the Lakers, the other one with Chicago), 1x NBL MVP (Lakers), 6x allNBA 1st team (Lakers), 2x allNBL 1st team (Lakers & Chicago), 4x NBA allstar (Lakers), 1x allstar MVP (Lakers), 3x NBA scoring champ (Lakers), 1x NBL scoring champ (Lakers), 2x NBA rebounding champ (Lakers), greatest player 1st half of the century (1900-1950)...
Nothing to say, best player on all his championship teams, easy choice. Up with his jersey!

-Clyde Lovellette #34
3x NBA champ (one with Lakers, 2 with Boston), 4x NBA allstar (2 with Lakers, 2 with Hawks), 1x allNBA 2nd team (Lakers), 1x NCAA champ, scoring champ and F4 MOP (obviously not with Lakers), 1x Olympic gold...
He also wore #89 for a part of his 1st season, but then took #34 for the rest of his stint with us. IMO he should not have his jersey up there. He was a rookie for us in the last title of the Mikan era, in which he put up 8ppg and 6rpg (10-10 in the playoffs). Later when Mikan retired he took on a bigger role and even put up two 20ppg+ seasons to go along 2 allstar game caps and a allNBA 2nd team, but thats about it in his 4 seasons as a Laker. Not nearly enough to justify a jersey retirement if you ask me. Plus he went to Boston later, and Shaq is #34, so... No!

Slater Martin #22
5x NBA champ (4 with Lakers, 1 with Hawks), 7x NBA allstar (4 with Lakers, 3 with NY, Hawks), 5x allNBA 2nd team (2 with Lakers, 3 with NY, Hawks)
10ppg, 3rpg, 4apg in 7 seasons as a Laker. He seems to me like a Michael Cooper version of the 50s dynasty, great defensively but not much production offensively. Enough to have his number retired? I dont think so. And Elgin Baylor is the recognizable Laker #22. No!

Jim Pollard #17
5x NBA champ, 1x NBL champ, 2x allNBA 1st team, 2x allNBA 2nd team, 1x allNBL 1st team, 4x NBA allstar, this all with Lakers, NCAA champ (Stanford)
His whole career of eight seasons was with the Lakers (one in the NBL), 6 titles as the 2ndA option behind Mikan. 13ppg, 8rpg, 3 apg, i think he qualifies so he gets a yes!

Vern Mikkelsen #19
4x NBA champ, 6x NBA allstar, 4x allNBA 2nd team, all with the Lakers
Spent his entire 10 year long career as a Laker, just short of 700 games for the franchise. 14.5ppg, 9.5rpg, 2apg, 2ndB option on 4 championship teams. He falls into the Wilkes/Worthy tier imo, but slightly bellow so hes a borderline one. Id still retire #19, he has a valid case (lifetime Laker who played long enough to welcome a rookie Elgin Baylor into the franchise, 3rd star on a dynasty, HOF). Yes!

John Kundla - He was a coach for us and granted, he delivered 6 titles to the franchise (1xNBL, 5xNBA), but do we put coaches names up there? What about Phil Jackson? Pat Riley? Bill Sharman? Fred Schaus? What comes next, executives, owners? IMO hes not supposed to be there, but if we put up a banner with coaches names its fine also. Not a big deal.

Id like to hear other opinions on this.
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Last edited by GOODRICH25 on Wed Apr 01, 2020 5:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:41 am    Post subject:

I dont know if its possible to make multiple choice polls, kinda sucks the way its now
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2020 3:48 pm    Post subject:

Minneapolis Lakers won six world championships. 1948. 1949. 1950. 1952. 1953. 1954.

http://stewthornley.net/mplslakersgameresults.html
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2020 5:12 pm    Post subject:

JUST-MING wrote:
Minneapolis Lakers won six world championships. 1948. 1949. 1950. 1952. 1953. 1954.

http://stewthornley.net/mplslakersgameresults.html


Yeah, the 1st one was in the NBL, and since there waa a NBA season (BAA at the time) going on parallelly, i dont think it counts as a 'World championship'. Otherwise we would be tied with Boston at 17 championships right now
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2020 7:56 pm    Post subject:

Gotta honor your past. I'm down for retiring them all.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2020 8:05 pm    Post subject:

1) I count the NBL Championship

2) Mikan and Lovellette were HOF in any era.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 6:12 am    Post subject:

You cannot retire one number and not the others. Every single one of those five players meets the criteria of jersey retirement from the Lakers. The idea to only retire some versus the others is simply disrespectful and redactive.

Most people do not seem to know or remember that there was a long period of time that these players and titles weren't recognized at all. It was only in 2002 that Jerry Buss made the decision to honor all of these five players alongside Kundla with both the MPLS hall of fame and championships banners. It was an entire ceremony with five of the six members present with only Pollard having been deceased at that point.

Logistically there wouldn't be much point to having five jersey retirement ceremonies when all these players were already honored in 2002 and none of them are alive to attend any longer. Then there's the precedent need to add five blue and yellow MPLS jerseys and five championship banners causing a visual clash and aesthetic disconnect next to the eleven purple and gold jerseys and eleven banners.

Is it hypocritical to claim the titles and accomplishments of these players while not honoring them equally to their Los Angeles peers? Yes it is. It always has been. But somehow the organization and fanbase have managed to reconcile that hypocrisy and there is no reason that looks to change going forward.

My suggested compromise would be to replace the current "jersey" banner and add one that immortalizes the players' numbers next to their names and clarifies that they're Minneapolis Lakers. Also adjust the order.

MPLS Hall of Fame
99 George Mikan
19 Vern Mikkelsen
17 Jim Pollard
22 Slater Martin
34 Clyde Lovellette
C John Kundla

With the option of adding "14 Larry Foust" above Kundla should he ever stop being snubbed from Naismith.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 6:42 am    Post subject:

Dr. Laker wrote:
1) I count the NBL Championship

2) Mikan and Lovellette were HOF in any era.


Would you say it holds the same weight as a NBA championship? The Lakers as well as some other teams joined the BAA after that season, and later the 2 leagues merged creating the NBA. The NBA however recognizes only the BAA as its official predecessor in terms of champions, awards, stats, the NBL (and the ABA as well) is ignored
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 7:07 am    Post subject:

I think it's past the point that it makes sense to retire the numbers of those guys. Every one of them is dead. Other than maybe Mikan, 99% of Lakers fans don't know who any of them are.

As Bill James said in one of his books, I'm not sure what you'd be honoring at this point. They're memories? You can't do that because hardly anyone remembers them
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 7:12 am    Post subject:

ToastedMuffins wrote:
You cannot retire one number and not the others. Every single one of those five players meets the criteria of jersey retirement from the Lakers. The idea to only retire some versus the others is simply disrespectful and redactive.

Most people do not seem to know or remember that there was a long period of time that these players and titles weren't recognized at all. It was only in 2002 that Jerry Buss made the decision to honor all of these five players alongside Kundla with both the MPLS hall of fame and championships banners. It was an entire ceremony with five of the six members present with only Pollard having been deceased at that point.

Logistically there wouldn't be much point to having five jersey retirement ceremonies when all these players were already honored in 2002 and none of them are alive to attend any longer. Then there's the precedent need to add five blue and yellow MPLS jerseys and five championship banners causing a visual clash and aesthetic disconnect next to the eleven purple and gold jerseys and eleven banners.

Is it hypocritical to claim the titles and accomplishments of these players while not honoring them equally to their Los Angeles peers? Yes it is. It always has been. But somehow the organization and fanbase have managed to reconcile that hypocrisy and there is no reason that looks to change going forward.

My suggested compromise would be to replace the current "jersey" banner and add one that immortalizes the players' numbers next to their names and clarifies that they're Minneapolis Lakers. Also adjust the order.

MPLS Hall of Fame
99 George Mikan
19 Vern Mikkelsen
17 Jim Pollard
22 Slater Martin
34 Clyde Lovellette
C John Kundla

With the option of adding "14 Larry Foust" above Kundla should he ever stop being snubbed from Naismith.


But you can apply that logic to every championship team/dynasty of ours. If we put up banners like that, wed have Chamberlain/West/Goodrich/Hairston/McMillan/Sharman or Kareem/Magic/Worthy/Cooper/Rambis or Shaq/Kobe/Horry/Fisher/Fox. You get what im saying? Not everyone deserves to have his jersey number retired by LAKERS STANDARDS, otherwise wed have like 50 retired numbers like Boston does.

The 2nd issue is, i think its disrespectful to primarly Mikan, to have him grouped with his 'supporting cast', while guys like Wilkes, Goodrich or Worthy (who i all love and think they all are up there deservedly, but who were 3rd options on championship teams) all have their own jerseys retired.

The 3rd issue i have is, Martin was indeed a very important piece on those teams, but does he deserve his jersey retired more than someone like Cooper? Or Fisher? Horry? The only thing he has over them is hes in the HOF while they are not, otherwise i dont see how his contribution to the franchise outweights theirs.

Lovellette is indeed a GREAT for his era, but most of that was outside the Lakers. He won only one ring with us, as a 8ppg rookie. His prime was on the Hawks and he won more with Boston than with us. Bob McAddo is the closest comparison i guess and no one thinks we should retire his.

The two guys other tham Mikan which i think have a legit case are Pollard and Mikkelsen, entire career with the Lakers, 2nd and 3rd option behind Mikan on those championahip teams. They fall into the Goodrich/Wilkes bracket imo, allthough their career numbers are lower than theirs.

To sum it up, not everyone can be a Wilt/Kareem, or West/Magic, or even Goodrich/Worthy, there is also the Coopers, Horrys that contribute to great teams but are obviously not on the same tier legacy wise or importance wise to the former mentioned ones. I dont think its disrespectful to make that distinction. What i do think is disrespectful is grouping them all on 1 banner like they are equals, when there is an obvious difference. So to me, Mikan is a obvious candidate to have his jersey number retired and get a statue also. Pollard and Mikkelsen also have a case for their numbers retired, but you can also make a case against them. Im leaning more towards yes because every championship team of ours has 2 or 3 players with numbers retired, it should be the same here. Martin and Lovellette id skip on, that would be too much.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 7:19 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
I think it's past the point that it makes sense to retire the numbers of those guys. Every one of them is dead. Other than maybe Mikan, 99% of Lakers fans don't know who any of them are.

As Bill James said in one of his books, I'm not sure what you'd be honoring at this point. They're memories? You can't do that because hardly anyone remembers them


I think it would be more like fixing the wrong we did than true honoring. They are responsible for 1/3 of our championships, and we as a franchise dont seem to apreciate that as much as we do the other 2/3.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 7:33 am    Post subject:

Dr. Laker wrote:
1) I count the NBL Championship

2) Mikan and Lovellette were HOF in any era.


1. I think it would just look silly to count the NBL Championship. It's a different League that has no relationship to the NBA. It would be like counting an ABA Championship or an International Championship. No one else would recognize it

2. I don't really know much about lovellett so I can't comment on him. I doubt Mikan could even make the NBA today. In fact, I'm not sure if he could have even made the NBA past 1980 or so. He was a product of his times. He was a 6-10 man who dwarfed his competitors and made use of the rules of the time. But he was incredibly slow. He would have really struggled with the expanded zone and shot clock.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:09 am    Post subject:

GOODRICH25 wrote:
activeverb wrote:
I think it's past the point that it makes sense to retire the numbers of those guys. Every one of them is dead. Other than maybe Mikan, 99% of Lakers fans don't know who any of them are.

As Bill James said in one of his books, I'm not sure what you'd be honoring at this point. They're memories? You can't do that because hardly anyone remembers them


I think it would be more like fixing the wrong we did than true honoring. They are responsible for 1/3 of our championships, and we as a franchise dont seem to apreciate that as much as we do the other 2/3.


I understand that viewpoint. It's pretty much a "whatever" for me. I respect what those guys accomplished 60 years, but I have no emotional connection to any of them. Seeing their numbers in the rafters wouldn't bring up any memories or feelings for me.

I feel the boat has sailed. If the Lakers didn't retire their numbers 20-30 years ago when they were still around, I don't think doing so now really matters much.

And you're right: The franchise has never cared about those guys, or their championships, except for how they boost our total rings count. They were cut adrift from the point that the Lakers moved to LA, rarely to be thought of again except grudingly
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 9:50 am    Post subject:

GOODRICH25 wrote:
ToastedMuffins wrote:
You cannot retire one number and not the others. Every single one of those five players meets the criteria of jersey retirement from the Lakers. The idea to only retire some versus the others is simply disrespectful and redactive.

Most people do not seem to know or remember that there was a long period of time that these players and titles weren't recognized at all. It was only in 2002 that Jerry Buss made the decision to honor all of these five players alongside Kundla with both the MPLS hall of fame and championships banners. It was an entire ceremony with five of the six members present with only Pollard having been deceased at that point.

Logistically there wouldn't be much point to having five jersey retirement ceremonies when all these players were already honored in 2002 and none of them are alive to attend any longer. Then there's the precedent need to add five blue and yellow MPLS jerseys and five championship banners causing a visual clash and aesthetic disconnect next to the eleven purple and gold jerseys and eleven banners.

Is it hypocritical to claim the titles and accomplishments of these players while not honoring them equally to their Los Angeles peers? Yes it is. It always has been. But somehow the organization and fanbase have managed to reconcile that hypocrisy and there is no reason that looks to change going forward.

My suggested compromise would be to replace the current "jersey" banner and add one that immortalizes the players' numbers next to their names and clarifies that they're Minneapolis Lakers. Also adjust the order.

MPLS Hall of Fame
99 George Mikan
19 Vern Mikkelsen
17 Jim Pollard
22 Slater Martin
34 Clyde Lovellette
C John Kundla

With the option of adding "14 Larry Foust" above Kundla should he ever stop being snubbed from Naismith.


But you can apply that logic to every championship team/dynasty of ours. If we put up banners like that, wed have Chamberlain/West/Goodrich/Hairston/McMillan/Sharman or Kareem/Magic/Worthy/Cooper/Rambis or Shaq/Kobe/Horry/Fisher/Fox. You get what im saying? Not everyone deserves to have his jersey number retired by LAKERS STANDARDS, otherwise wed have like 50 retired numbers like Boston does.

The 2nd issue is, i think its disrespectful to primarly Mikan, to have him grouped with his 'supporting cast', while guys like Wilkes, Goodrich or Worthy (who i all love and think they all are up there deservedly, but who were 3rd options on championship teams) all have their own jerseys retired.

The 3rd issue i have is, Martin was indeed a very important piece on those teams, but does he deserve his jersey retired more than someone like Cooper? Or Fisher? Horry? The only thing he has over them is hes in the HOF while they are not, otherwise i dont see how his contribution to the franchise outweights theirs.

Lovellette is indeed a GREAT for his era, but most of that was outside the Lakers. He won only one ring with us, as a 8ppg rookie. His prime was on the Hawks and he won more with Boston than with us. Bob McAddo is the closest comparison i guess and no one thinks we should retire his.

The two guys other tham Mikan which i think have a legit case are Pollard and Mikkelsen, entire career with the Lakers, 2nd and 3rd option behind Mikan on those championahip teams. They fall into the Goodrich/Wilkes bracket imo, allthough their career numbers are lower than theirs.

To sum it up, not everyone can be a Wilt/Kareem, or West/Magic, or even Goodrich/Worthy, there is also the Coopers, Horrys that contribute to great teams but are obviously not on the same tier legacy wise or importance wise to the former mentioned ones. I dont think its disrespectful to make that distinction. What i do think is disrespectful is grouping them all on 1 banner like they are equals, when there is an obvious difference. So to me, Mikan is a obvious candidate to have his jersey number retired and get a statue also. Pollard and Mikkelsen also have a case for their numbers retired, but you can also make a case against them. Im leaning more towards yes because every championship team of ours has 2 or 3 players with numbers retired, it should be the same here. Martin and Lovellette id skip on, that would be too much.


The difference between the MPLS teams and West/Chamberlain, Kareem/Magic, Kobe/Shaq etc is obvious. They won their championships in and for Minneapolis. The others won them here in and for Los Angeles. You need to remember that for the longest time we didn't hang up banners for their championships AT ALL. It was only the ones we won in Los Angeles. As an organization we retroactively went and decided to honor their contributions to the Lakers. You could argue these players have as much right to have their jerseys retired by the Timberwolves because at least that's where they actually played. And indeed George Mikan has a statue outside Target Center in Minnesota.

You're absolutely right that not everyone deserves their number retired. Historically the Lakers have been one of the the stingiest teams when it comes to jersey retirements. We only retire Hall of Famers. And even then only players that have made at least two all-star appearances as well as played at least four seasons for us have earned that honor. All of Mikan, Mikkelsen, Pollard, Martin and Lovellette meet and exceed those standards. If you need evidence of this, look in the rafters of Staples Center. Their names are up there and other players from those championship teams are not. Players like Cooper, McAdoo, Fisher, and Horry don't come close to meeting the Lakers standards for jersey retirement. They're not comparable.

It seems what has got you hung up about this is that you're trying to compare apples to oranges. You can't compare the league as it was in 1949 to the way it was in the 70s, 80s, or 2000s. There was only 9 teams in the entire league. There was no shot clock. There were games that ended with less than 40 points scored by both teams combined. Furthermore, the league was still highly segregated. The Lakers didn't get their first black player until 1955. It's important to keep perspective.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 10:19 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
GOODRICH25 wrote:
activeverb wrote:
I think it's past the point that it makes sense to retire the numbers of those guys. Every one of them is dead. Other than maybe Mikan, 99% of Lakers fans don't know who any of them are.

As Bill James said in one of his books, I'm not sure what you'd be honoring at this point. They're memories? You can't do that because hardly anyone remembers them


I think it would be more like fixing the wrong we did than true honoring. They are responsible for 1/3 of our championships, and we as a franchise dont seem to apreciate that as much as we do the other 2/3.


I understand that viewpoint. It's pretty much a "whatever" for me. I respect what those guys accomplished 60 years, but I have no emotional connection to any of them. Seeing their numbers in the rafters wouldn't bring up any memories or feelings for me.

I feel the boat has sailed. If the Lakers didn't retire their numbers 20-30 years ago when they were still around, I don't think doing so now really matters much.

And you're right: The franchise has never cared about those guys, or their championships, except for how they boost our total rings count. They were cut adrift from the point that the Lakers moved to LA, rarely to be thought of again except grudingly


Yeah it does seem that way sadly, and there is no indication that will change. People aren't attached to any of the players (with the exception of their families and maybe some alive people who were born in the 40s and prior), there is very little footage of them and the one that exists looks quite mediocre for the casual eye, and the franchise already kinda took care of this half-assedly. It would have been a nice gesture of respect to them posthumously and their families if nothing else
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:11 am    Post subject:

GOODRICH25 wrote:
activeverb wrote:
GOODRICH25 wrote:
activeverb wrote:
I think it's past the point that it makes sense to retire the numbers of those guys. Every one of them is dead. Other than maybe Mikan, 99% of Lakers fans don't know who any of them are.

As Bill James said in one of his books, I'm not sure what you'd be honoring at this point. They're memories? You can't do that because hardly anyone remembers them


I think it would be more like fixing the wrong we did than true honoring. They are responsible for 1/3 of our championships, and we as a franchise dont seem to apreciate that as much as we do the other 2/3.


I understand that viewpoint. It's pretty much a "whatever" for me. I respect what those guys accomplished 60 years, but I have no emotional connection to any of them. Seeing their numbers in the rafters wouldn't bring up any memories or feelings for me.

I feel the boat has sailed. If the Lakers didn't retire their numbers 20-30 years ago when they were still around, I don't think doing so now really matters much.

And you're right: The franchise has never cared about those guys, or their championships, except for how they boost our total rings count. They were cut adrift from the point that the Lakers moved to LA, rarely to be thought of again except grudingly


Yeah it does seem that way sadly, and there is no indication that will change. People aren't attached to any of the players (with the exception of their families and maybe some alive people who were born in the 40s and prior), there is very little footage of them and the one that exists looks quite mediocre for the casual eye, and the franchise already kinda took care of this half-assedly. It would have been a nice gesture of respect to them posthumously and their families if nothing else


It's understandable. The Lakers moved to LA in 1960 and none of those guys were around anymore. The Lakers wanted to make a mark in Los Angeles and not bring up the Minneapolis days. They were promoting Elgin and Jerry.

For a long time, no one really cared about the Minneapolis rings. They only started to matter decades later when we won more rings and it looked like we might approach Boston's total.

By the time the Lakers started retiring numbers, they were two owners and 35 years removed from Minneapolis. They wanted to honor players that would appeal to current fans.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:21 am    Post subject:

ToastedMuffins wrote:
GOODRICH25 wrote:
ToastedMuffins wrote:
You cannot retire one number and not the others. Every single one of those five players meets the criteria of jersey retirement from the Lakers. The idea to only retire some versus the others is simply disrespectful and redactive.

Most people do not seem to know or remember that there was a long period of time that these players and titles weren't recognized at all. It was only in 2002 that Jerry Buss made the decision to honor all of these five players alongside Kundla with both the MPLS hall of fame and championships banners. It was an entire ceremony with five of the six members present with only Pollard having been deceased at that point.

Logistically there wouldn't be much point to having five jersey retirement ceremonies when all these players were already honored in 2002 and none of them are alive to attend any longer. Then there's the precedent need to add five blue and yellow MPLS jerseys and five championship banners causing a visual clash and aesthetic disconnect next to the eleven purple and gold jerseys and eleven banners.

Is it hypocritical to claim the titles and accomplishments of these players while not honoring them equally to their Los Angeles peers? Yes it is. It always has been. But somehow the organization and fanbase have managed to reconcile that hypocrisy and there is no reason that looks to change going forward.

My suggested compromise would be to replace the current "jersey" banner and add one that immortalizes the players' numbers next to their names and clarifies that they're Minneapolis Lakers. Also adjust the order.

MPLS Hall of Fame
99 George Mikan
19 Vern Mikkelsen
17 Jim Pollard
22 Slater Martin
34 Clyde Lovellette
C John Kundla

With the option of adding "14 Larry Foust" above Kundla should he ever stop being snubbed from Naismith.


But you can apply that logic to every championship team/dynasty of ours. If we put up banners like that, wed have Chamberlain/West/Goodrich/Hairston/McMillan/Sharman or Kareem/Magic/Worthy/Cooper/Rambis or Shaq/Kobe/Horry/Fisher/Fox. You get what im saying? Not everyone deserves to have his jersey number retired by LAKERS STANDARDS, otherwise wed have like 50 retired numbers like Boston does.

The 2nd issue is, i think its disrespectful to primarly Mikan, to have him grouped with his 'supporting cast', while guys like Wilkes, Goodrich or Worthy (who i all love and think they all are up there deservedly, but who were 3rd options on championship teams) all have their own jerseys retired.

The 3rd issue i have is, Martin was indeed a very important piece on those teams, but does he deserve his jersey retired more than someone like Cooper? Or Fisher? Horry? The only thing he has over them is hes in the HOF while they are not, otherwise i dont see how his contribution to the franchise outweights theirs.

Lovellette is indeed a GREAT for his era, but most of that was outside the Lakers. He won only one ring with us, as a 8ppg rookie. His prime was on the Hawks and he won more with Boston than with us. Bob McAddo is the closest comparison i guess and no one thinks we should retire his.

The two guys other tham Mikan which i think have a legit case are Pollard and Mikkelsen, entire career with the Lakers, 2nd and 3rd option behind Mikan on those championahip teams. They fall into the Goodrich/Wilkes bracket imo, allthough their career numbers are lower than theirs.

To sum it up, not everyone can be a Wilt/Kareem, or West/Magic, or even Goodrich/Worthy, there is also the Coopers, Horrys that contribute to great teams but are obviously not on the same tier legacy wise or importance wise to the former mentioned ones. I dont think its disrespectful to make that distinction. What i do think is disrespectful is grouping them all on 1 banner like they are equals, when there is an obvious difference. So to me, Mikan is a obvious candidate to have his jersey number retired and get a statue also. Pollard and Mikkelsen also have a case for their numbers retired, but you can also make a case against them. Im leaning more towards yes because every championship team of ours has 2 or 3 players with numbers retired, it should be the same here. Martin and Lovellette id skip on, that would be too much.


The difference between the MPLS teams and West/Chamberlain, Kareem/Magic, Kobe/Shaq etc is obvious. They won their championships in and for Minneapolis. The others won them here in and for Los Angeles. You need to remember that for the longest time we didn't hang up banners for their championships AT ALL. It was only the ones we won in Los Angeles. As an organization we retroactively went and decided to honor their contributions to the Lakers. You could argue these players have as much right to have their jerseys retired by the Timberwolves because at least that's where they actually played. And indeed George Mikan has a statue outside Target Center in Minnesota.

You're absolutely right that not everyone deserves their number retired. Historically the Lakers have been one of the the stingiest teams when it comes to jersey retirements. We only retire Hall of Famers. And even then only players that have made at least two all-star appearances as well as played at least four seasons for us have earned that honor. All of Mikan, Mikkelsen, Pollard, Martin and Lovellette meet and exceed those standards. If you need evidence of this, look in the rafters of Staples Center. Their names are up there and other players from those championship teams are not. Players like Cooper, McAdoo, Fisher, and Horry don't come close to meeting the Lakers standards for jersey retirement. They're not comparable.

It seems what has got you hung up about this is that you're trying to compare apples to oranges. You can't compare the league as it was in 1949 to the way it was in the 70s, 80s, or 2000s. There was only 9 teams in the entire league. There was no shot clock. There were games that ended with less than 40 points scored by both teams combined. Furthermore, the league was still highly segregated. The Lakers didn't get their first black player until 1955. It's important to keep perspective.


IMO you either honor and treat everyone deservedly or not at all. You are either the 11 time world champion Los Angeles Lakers with 11 championship banners, and your history starts in 1960, or youre 16 time world champion Lakers with 16 championship banners, and your history begins in 1947 in the NBL. This half assed middle ground is whats the problem to me. Different city or not, you as a organization recognize it as your past, you recognize yourself as a 16 time champion, so award everyone who contributed to that adequatly.

Lovellette to me is the least deserving one and having his name on the same banner with Mikan seems like a lazy effort. He won his sole championship here as a 8ppg rookie, played 4 total seasons before going to the Hawks. Then joined the Celtics and won 2 championships, against the Lakers! He was a basketball great for his time, but I see no reason to have him as a Lakers great. Only difference between Martin and guys like Cooper/Fisher is that hes in the HOF. He was the 4th option on the 52-54 3peat team, he wasnt even that when we won his 1st ring in 1950. He averaged 8.5 ppg for that timespan (team was at around 85ppg). His 2 by far best statistical seasons came after we won our last ring, then he left to NY. There is not a single player in our history whos best contribution has been being the 4th wheel on a Laker championship team that has his number retired. When that happens for the 1st time, ill be the 1st to say Martin should also be up there, but it just isnt something we do.

You cant compare the league then and now, agree about that, but you can look at the team back then and atleast make some conclusions about who contributed more/the most to what really is valued in this franchise, namely championships. Mikan was the clear star of a 5 time (6 with the NBL) championship dynasty, followed by Pollard and Mikkelsen. Going by this, and seeing as for every championship team/dynasty, we have retired 2-3 numbers, those 2 are the clear choices to go to besides Mikan. Retiring Martin and Lovellette would be too much and would open up further possibilities for other players. Id pass on that.
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GOODRICH25
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:33 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
GOODRICH25 wrote:
activeverb wrote:
GOODRICH25 wrote:
activeverb wrote:
I think it's past the point that it makes sense to retire the numbers of those guys. Every one of them is dead. Other than maybe Mikan, 99% of Lakers fans don't know who any of them are.

As Bill James said in one of his books, I'm not sure what you'd be honoring at this point. They're memories? You can't do that because hardly anyone remembers them


I think it would be more like fixing the wrong we did than true honoring. They are responsible for 1/3 of our championships, and we as a franchise dont seem to apreciate that as much as we do the other 2/3.


I understand that viewpoint. It's pretty much a "whatever" for me. I respect what those guys accomplished 60 years, but I have no emotional connection to any of them. Seeing their numbers in the rafters wouldn't bring up any memories or feelings for me.

I feel the boat has sailed. If the Lakers didn't retire their numbers 20-30 years ago when they were still around, I don't think doing so now really matters much.

And you're right: The franchise has never cared about those guys, or their championships, except for how they boost our total rings count. They were cut adrift from the point that the Lakers moved to LA, rarely to be thought of again except grudingly


Yeah it does seem that way sadly, and there is no indication that will change. People aren't attached to any of the players (with the exception of their families and maybe some alive people who were born in the 40s and prior), there is very little footage of them and the one that exists looks quite mediocre for the casual eye, and the franchise already kinda took care of this half-assedly. It would have been a nice gesture of respect to them posthumously and their families if nothing else


It's understandable. The Lakers moved to LA in 1960 and none of those guys were around anymore. The Lakers wanted to make a mark in Los Angeles and not bring up the Minneapolis days. They were promoting Elgin and Jerry.

For a long time, no one really cared about the Minneapolis rings. They only started to matter decades later when we won more rings and it looked like we might approach Boston's total.

By the time the Lakers started retiring numbers, they were two owners and 35 years removed from Minneapolis. They wanted to honor players that would appeal to current fans.


That is fair if they wanted to move on, but then dont bring them back later when you need them in your power show-off with Boston. Or atleast if you do, do it properly.

It seems like a moot point to bring this up since the proper retirement ceremony(ies) will probably never happen, i just wanted to gather more opinions on this in these depressing quarantine days, not many topics that dont have anything to do with the virus to find.
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activeverb
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:45 am    Post subject:

GOODRICH25 wrote:
activeverb wrote:
GOODRICH25 wrote:
activeverb wrote:
GOODRICH25 wrote:
activeverb wrote:
I think it's past the point that it makes sense to retire the numbers of those guys. Every one of them is dead. Other than maybe Mikan, 99% of Lakers fans don't know who any of them are.

As Bill James said in one of his books, I'm not sure what you'd be honoring at this point. They're memories? You can't do that because hardly anyone remembers them


I think it would be more like fixing the wrong we did than true honoring. They are responsible for 1/3 of our championships, and we as a franchise dont seem to apreciate that as much as we do the other 2/3.


I understand that viewpoint. It's pretty much a "whatever" for me. I respect what those guys accomplished 60 years, but I have no emotional connection to any of them. Seeing their numbers in the rafters wouldn't bring up any memories or feelings for me.

I feel the boat has sailed. If the Lakers didn't retire their numbers 20-30 years ago when they were still around, I don't think doing so now really matters much.

And you're right: The franchise has never cared about those guys, or their championships, except for how they boost our total rings count. They were cut adrift from the point that the Lakers moved to LA, rarely to be thought of again except grudingly


Yeah it does seem that way sadly, and there is no indication that will change. People aren't attached to any of the players (with the exception of their families and maybe some alive people who were born in the 40s and prior), there is very little footage of them and the one that exists looks quite mediocre for the casual eye, and the franchise already kinda took care of this half-assedly. It would have been a nice gesture of respect to them posthumously and their families if nothing else


It's understandable. The Lakers moved to LA in 1960 and none of those guys were around anymore. The Lakers wanted to make a mark in Los Angeles and not bring up the Minneapolis days. They were promoting Elgin and Jerry.

For a long time, no one really cared about the Minneapolis rings. They only started to matter decades later when we won more rings and it looked like we might approach Boston's total.

By the time the Lakers started retiring numbers, they were two owners and 35 years removed from Minneapolis. They wanted to honor players that would appeal to current fans.


That is fair if they wanted to move on, but then dont bring them back later when you need them in your power show-off with Boston. Or atleast if you do, do it properly.

It seems like a moot point to bring this up since the proper retirement ceremony(ies) will probably never happen, i just wanted to gather more opinions on this in these depressing quarantine days, not many topics that dont have anything to do with the virus to find.



The Lakers didn't retire a number until 1983 when West, Baylor, and Wilt were retired.

There was no official criteria for retiring numbers (and there still isn't). It wasn't until the mid-90s that people saw that the Lakers only retired Hall of Famers.

It probably wasn't until the early 2000s that people started asking why the Minneapolis bunch didn't have their numbers retired.

The Lakers put up a banner to honor the Minneapolis Lakers in 2002, and Mikan, Martin, Clyde Lovellette, Vern Mikkelsen and coach John Kundla all came to Staples for the ceremony.

But the Lakers never really cared about the Minneapolis days. They have never been mentioned in media guides.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:07 pm    Post subject:

I don’t get the idea of retiring numbers. Hang a jersey with the name on it but let current players honor the numbers.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:22 pm    Post subject:

Theseus wrote:
Gotta honor your past. I'm down for retiring them all.
Yep. Same here.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2020 9:43 pm    Post subject:

we are reminded by sports media of the team's past over the Lakers losses to the Celtics nine times in the NBA Finals. One of those being the 1959-60 Minneapolis team with then rookie Elgin Baylor.

if the Lakers are remembered for that using Minneapolis as well to define the organization in the current era, I don't see anything wrong with merging the success of the 1950s team together with the Los Angeles team.

the unique thing about the Lakers compared to other teams (in basketball and other sports) in the country that moved to another city is that the Lakers are the only team to win at least 10+ titles outside its origin city. This shouldn't minimize Minneapolis's role over the Lakers' identity being what it is today outside of Minneapolis. One thing the Lakers have in common in both cities is the concept of "Showtime." In the 1940s-50s, George Mikan was revered as a showman and entertainer other than a basketball player when he and the team played in other cities. Fans anticipated the 50s Laker team like a Broadway Show coming to their town. Basketball in the 1950s was no longer a distant third behind football and baseball when it came to sports entertainment. We see this concept again during the 1980s after basketball slumped in ratings during the 1970s. The Phil-Shaq-Kobe era cemented the Lakers' whole identity by not only replicating showmanship in the sport of basketball but also winning half the NBA titles in the decade and doing it 2 or 3 times in a row. Something that the 1950s and 80s teams have in common. I can see why Dr. Buss not only wanted but needed to honor the Lakers' origins.

retiring Mikan's jersey is a no brainer. Martin was the Cooper of his day. Pollard and Mikkelsen were vital role players comparable to Goodrich, Worthy, and Wilkes so it would be fitting to see their jerseys retired as well.

what I hope they would do is have another banner from each champion team with just the number from every player on the roster topped with the coach's name. Kind of like what Boston has. That's my two cents anyway.
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