Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 52657 Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 4:23 pm Post subject:
LarryCoon wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Finally got my first dose of Moderna!
36 hours in. Zero side effects other than about 10 minutes of jumpy stomach yesterday afternoon which probably had tomorrow to do with skipping lunch. đ
The rectal bleeding usually starts in 48-72 hours.
Well, to be honest, that problem started after that party in Vegas that he still refuses to talk to us about.
Why would I do that? You guys were the party planners. _________________ You thought God was an architect, now you know
Heâs something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built thatâs all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Rachel Maddow got the J&J shot and she just described the exact same reaction to the shot I had (and had not heard anyone else describe it this way). She said she immediately felt light-headed and kind of woozy. Then pretty quickly she was okay with only arm pain.
36 hours in. Zero side effects other than about 10 minutes of jumpy stomach yesterday afternoon which probably had tomorrow to do with skipping lunch. đ
The rectal bleeding usually starts in 48-72 hours.
Well, to be honest, that problem started after that party in Vegas that he still refuses to talk to us about.
Why would I do that? You guys were the party planners.
HEY! You ordered the donkey, my friend. Don't pin that tail on me.
Joined: 19 Apr 2003 Posts: 22853 Location: La Jolla, San Diego
Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 1:16 am Post subject:
LarryCoon wrote:
Runway8 wrote:
In reading about J&J, they say 72% efficacy, which is lower than the 90 and up numbers for Pfizer and Moderna. But they say J&J is 100% against hospitalization and death. What's the efficacy of Pfizer and Moderna against hospitalization and death?
You can't compare the efficacy rates to each other. I posted something a couple pages back, including a video.
The number for any of the vaccines was based on results from clinical trials, and those trials were conducted at different times, in different places, so the virus prevalence in the wild was different, and the emergence of new strains was different.
Since the Pfizer & Moderna trials were conducted earlier in the pandemic, it's likely their numbers would have been lower had they been conducted later, as was the J&J trial.
In reading about J&J, they say 72% efficacy, which is lower than the 90 and up numbers for Pfizer and Moderna. But they say J&J is 100% against hospitalization and death. What's the efficacy of Pfizer and Moderna against hospitalization and death?
You can't compare the efficacy rates to each other. I posted something a couple pages back, including a video.
The number for any of the vaccines was based on results from clinical trials, and those trials were conducted at different times, in different places, so the virus prevalence in the wild was different, and the emergence of new strains was different.
Since the Pfizer & Moderna trials were conducted earlier in the pandemic, it's likely their numbers would have been lower had they been conducted later, as was the J&J trial.
Thank you! Scrolled back and found the video.
Just got my Pfizer first dose.
Anyway, the explanation that the efficacy rates of JJ versus Pfizer/moderna makes no sense to me. Why wonât they just all do new clinical trials now and see how Pfizer/Moderna performs today against the new strains to compare it to JJ? My guess is that they did and that Pfizer/Moderna perform very well (probably better than JJ) but they donât want to release that info bc they donât want people to lose confidence in the JJ. (Thatâs my opinion, not a fact) _________________ Billions Billions Billions
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90307 Location: Formerly Known As 24
Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:00 am Post subject:
BigBallerBrand wrote:
Runway8 wrote:
LarryCoon wrote:
Runway8 wrote:
In reading about J&J, they say 72% efficacy, which is lower than the 90 and up numbers for Pfizer and Moderna. But they say J&J is 100% against hospitalization and death. What's the efficacy of Pfizer and Moderna against hospitalization and death?
You can't compare the efficacy rates to each other. I posted something a couple pages back, including a video.
The number for any of the vaccines was based on results from clinical trials, and those trials were conducted at different times, in different places, so the virus prevalence in the wild was different, and the emergence of new strains was different.
Since the Pfizer & Moderna trials were conducted earlier in the pandemic, it's likely their numbers would have been lower had they been conducted later, as was the J&J trial.
Thank you! Scrolled back and found the video.
Just got my Pfizer first dose.
Anyway, the explanation that the efficacy rates of JJ versus Pfizer/moderna makes no sense to me. Why wonât they just all do new clinical trials now and see how Pfizer/Moderna performs today against the new strains to compare it to JJ? My guess is that they did and that Pfizer/Moderna perform very well (probably better than JJ) but they donât want to release that info bc they donât want people to lose confidence in the JJ. (Thatâs my opinion, not a fact)
They have ongoing clinical trials and release information from time to time (iirc, there was a recent six month study for the other two, because they came earlier), and to achieve standard FDA approval down the road. There is little or no chance they are hiding and efficiency study. _________________ âWe must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.â â Elie Wiesel
Anyway, the explanation that the efficacy rates of JJ versus Pfizer/moderna makes no sense to me. Why wonât they just all do new clinical trials now and see how Pfizer/Moderna performs today against the new strains to compare it to JJ? My guess is that they did and that Pfizer/Moderna perform very well (probably better than JJ) but they donât want to release that info bc they donât want people to lose confidence in the JJ. (Thatâs my opinion, not a fact)
Because there's no reason to repeat a clinical trial when something is in widespread use already. Think about it this way -- the world now IS the next clinical trial.
They continue to do trials for cohorts that were not tested in previous trials -- younger people, pregnant women, etc. While it is possible for trials with null or bad outcomes to be buried (the file drawer effect), that'd be tough to impossible with something of this size and visibility. Especially human subject trials, because of the IRB.
Joined: 13 Jan 2002 Posts: 7924 Location: Lake Forest
Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:03 am Post subject:
LarryCoon wrote:
BigBallerBrand wrote:
Anyway, the explanation that the efficacy rates of JJ versus Pfizer/moderna makes no sense to me. Why wonât they just all do new clinical trials now and see how Pfizer/Moderna performs today against the new strains to compare it to JJ? My guess is that they did and that Pfizer/Moderna perform very well (probably better than JJ) but they donât want to release that info bc they donât want people to lose confidence in the JJ. (Thatâs my opinion, not a fact)
Because there's no reason to repeat a clinical trial when something is in widespread use already. Think about it this way -- the world now IS the next clinical trial.
They continue to do trials for cohorts that were not tested in previous trials -- younger people, pregnant women, etc. While it is possible for trials with null or bad outcomes to be buried (the file drawer effect), that'd be tough to impossible with something of this size and visibility. Especially human subject trials, because of the IRB.
Why would Pfizer/Moderna run trials to see if their vaccines are less effective against variants? They have nothing to gain and a lot to lose. It's not like J&J can run trials for Pfizer/Moderna efficacy.
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 6054 Location: My own little piece of reality
Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:31 am Post subject:
No point in running side-by-side trials, we are basically in "phase 4" trials now anyway, testing all the vaccines in the same big "trial". I don't think any of the manufacturers are literally running a phase 4 trial but that is essentially what it is.
This happens when any new therapeutic or vaccine is approved, you see what happens in the real world with far greater numbers of people. If one or more vaccine is better or worse we will know soon enough as more data is collected.
By the way, it would be extremely difficult to "hide" any negative trial results, not to mention highly unethical. You have to prospectively (in advance) tell the FDA what you plan to do and then present the results and any deviation from the protocol would have to be noted. There are both internal and external review boards and a lot of control built into any human trial. _________________ âThere is always light if only we're brave enough to see it, if only we're brave enough to be it.â --Amanda Gorman
Joined: 17 Nov 2007 Posts: 67718 Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:40 am Post subject:
LakersRGolden wrote:
LarryCoon wrote:
BigBallerBrand wrote:
Anyway, the explanation that the efficacy rates of JJ versus Pfizer/moderna makes no sense to me. Why wonât they just all do new clinical trials now and see how Pfizer/Moderna performs today against the new strains to compare it to JJ? My guess is that they did and that Pfizer/Moderna perform very well (probably better than JJ) but they donât want to release that info bc they donât want people to lose confidence in the JJ. (Thatâs my opinion, not a fact)
Because there's no reason to repeat a clinical trial when something is in widespread use already. Think about it this way -- the world now IS the next clinical trial.
They continue to do trials for cohorts that were not tested in previous trials -- younger people, pregnant women, etc. While it is possible for trials with null or bad outcomes to be buried (the file drawer effect), that'd be tough to impossible with something of this size and visibility. Especially human subject trials, because of the IRB.
Why would Pfizer/Moderna run trials to see if their vaccines are less effective against variants? They have nothing to gain and a lot to lose. It's not like J&J can run trials for Pfizer/Moderna efficacy.
Your saying nothing to gain and a lot to lose seems to me you're equating the dollar to life.
Defeating the virus should be the main concern. In that vein efficacy is tantamount. The Colorado incident has put JJ efficacy in doubt.
Centura Health to stop using Johnson & Johnson vaccine at Colorado mass-vaccination sites
Centura Health will stop using the Johnson & Johnson vaccine at the three COVID-19 mass-vaccination sites it manages in Colorado, the health system announced Friday night, citing both a national shortage and a series of adverse reactions to the shots at its Commerce City location.
Instead, Centura will offer the two-dose Pfizer and Moderna vaccines beginning Saturday at the drive-up sites at Dickâs Sporting Goods Park in Commerce City, Broadmoor World Arena in Colorado Springs and the Colorado State Fairgrounds in Pueblo.
âThroughout the pandemic, we have remained flexible and nimble, always ready to adapt our processes and systems rooted in our commitment to âSafety First, People Always,ââ Peter D. Banko, president and CEO of Centura Health, said in a statement. âI applaud and support our incredible caregivers at Dickâs Sporting Goods Park for their courage to see something, say something, and stop the line.â
Centura shut down the mass-vaccination site at Dickâs Sporting Goods Park shut on Wednesday afternoon after 1,700 people had received the Johnson & Johnson vaccine. Of those, 11 people experienced dizziness and nausea in a span of less than four hours. None of the patients became seriously ill, though two were taken to an area hospital for observation because they had low blood pressure.
_________________ Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 6054 Location: My own little piece of reality
Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 10:47 am Post subject:
jodeke wrote:
LakersRGolden wrote:
LarryCoon wrote:
BigBallerBrand wrote:
Anyway, the explanation that the efficacy rates of JJ versus Pfizer/moderna makes no sense to me. Why wonât they just all do new clinical trials now and see how Pfizer/Moderna performs today against the new strains to compare it to JJ? My guess is that they did and that Pfizer/Moderna perform very well (probably better than JJ) but they donât want to release that info bc they donât want people to lose confidence in the JJ. (Thatâs my opinion, not a fact)
Because there's no reason to repeat a clinical trial when something is in widespread use already. Think about it this way -- the world now IS the next clinical trial.
They continue to do trials for cohorts that were not tested in previous trials -- younger people, pregnant women, etc. While it is possible for trials with null or bad outcomes to be buried (the file drawer effect), that'd be tough to impossible with something of this size and visibility. Especially human subject trials, because of the IRB.
Why would Pfizer/Moderna run trials to see if their vaccines are less effective against variants? They have nothing to gain and a lot to lose. It's not like J&J can run trials for Pfizer/Moderna efficacy.
Your saying nothing to gain and a lot to lose seems to me you're equating the dollar to life.
Defeating the virus should be the main concern. In that vein efficacy is tantamount. The Colorado incident has put JJ efficacy in doubt.
Centura Health to stop using Johnson & Johnson vaccine at Colorado mass-vaccination sites
Centura Health will stop using the Johnson & Johnson vaccine at the three COVID-19 mass-vaccination sites it manages in Colorado, the health system announced Friday night, citing both a national shortage and a series of adverse reactions to the shots at its Commerce City location.
Instead, Centura will offer the two-dose Pfizer and Moderna vaccines beginning Saturday at the drive-up sites at Dickâs Sporting Goods Park in Commerce City, Broadmoor World Arena in Colorado Springs and the Colorado State Fairgrounds in Pueblo.
âThroughout the pandemic, we have remained flexible and nimble, always ready to adapt our processes and systems rooted in our commitment to âSafety First, People Always,ââ Peter D. Banko, president and CEO of Centura Health, said in a statement. âI applaud and support our incredible caregivers at Dickâs Sporting Goods Park for their courage to see something, say something, and stop the line.â
Centura shut down the mass-vaccination site at Dickâs Sporting Goods Park shut on Wednesday afternoon after 1,700 people had received the Johnson & Johnson vaccine. Of those, 11 people experienced dizziness and nausea in a span of less than four hours. None of the patients became seriously ill, though two were taken to an area hospital for observation because they had low blood pressure.
Not efficacy (how well it works/protects) but possibly safety (potential adverse effects). _________________ âThere is always light if only we're brave enough to see it, if only we're brave enough to be it.â --Amanda Gorman
Joined: 17 Nov 2007 Posts: 67718 Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 11:25 am Post subject:
SweetP wrote:
jodeke wrote:
LakersRGolden wrote:
LarryCoon wrote:
BigBallerBrand wrote:
Anyway, the explanation that the efficacy rates of JJ versus Pfizer/moderna makes no sense to me. Why wonât they just all do new clinical trials now and see how Pfizer/Moderna performs today against the new strains to compare it to JJ? My guess is that they did and that Pfizer/Moderna perform very well (probably better than JJ) but they donât want to release that info bc they donât want people to lose confidence in the JJ. (Thatâs my opinion, not a fact)
Because there's no reason to repeat a clinical trial when something is in widespread use already. Think about it this way -- the world now IS the next clinical trial.
They continue to do trials for cohorts that were not tested in previous trials -- younger people, pregnant women, etc. While it is possible for trials with null or bad outcomes to be buried (the file drawer effect), that'd be tough to impossible with something of this size and visibility. Especially human subject trials, because of the IRB.
Why would Pfizer/Moderna run trials to see if their vaccines are less effective against variants? They have nothing to gain and a lot to lose. It's not like J&J can run trials for Pfizer/Moderna efficacy.
Your saying nothing to gain and a lot to lose seems to me you're equating the dollar to life.
Defeating the virus should be the main concern. In that vein efficacy is tantamount. The Colorado incident has put JJ efficacy in doubt.
Centura Health to stop using Johnson & Johnson vaccine at Colorado mass-vaccination sites
Centura Health will stop using the Johnson & Johnson vaccine at the three COVID-19 mass-vaccination sites it manages in Colorado, the health system announced Friday night, citing both a national shortage and a series of adverse reactions to the shots at its Commerce City location.
Instead, Centura will offer the two-dose Pfizer and Moderna vaccines beginning Saturday at the drive-up sites at Dickâs Sporting Goods Park in Commerce City, Broadmoor World Arena in Colorado Springs and the Colorado State Fairgrounds in Pueblo.
âThroughout the pandemic, we have remained flexible and nimble, always ready to adapt our processes and systems rooted in our commitment to âSafety First, People Always,ââ Peter D. Banko, president and CEO of Centura Health, said in a statement. âI applaud and support our incredible caregivers at Dickâs Sporting Goods Park for their courage to see something, say something, and stop the line.â
Centura shut down the mass-vaccination site at Dickâs Sporting Goods Park shut on Wednesday afternoon after 1,700 people had received the Johnson & Johnson vaccine. Of those, 11 people experienced dizziness and nausea in a span of less than four hours. None of the patients became seriously ill, though two were taken to an area hospital for observation because they had low blood pressure.
Not efficacy (how well it works/protects) but possibly safety (potential adverse effects).
I stand corrected. That being said it does put a cloud on JJ's vaccine. đđŸđŽđŸ _________________ Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
Joined: 19 Apr 2003 Posts: 22853 Location: La Jolla, San Diego
Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 11:57 am Post subject:
What's better to do if you had a choice. Get the 1st dose of Pfizer or Moderna asap vs the full JJ shot two weeks later? How about one week later?
Just figuring in terms of getting the full protection of any vaccine asap.. I know the saying is "get the one that you can get in your arm asap." But what if you can get the full JJ a week later? Mathematically, should you take the JJ then? Because ultimately, you get the full protection quicker than having to wait for that 2nd dose of Pfizer or Moderna? Know what I mean? LOL!
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90307 Location: Formerly Known As 24
Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:23 pm Post subject:
Runway8 wrote:
What's better to do if you had a choice. Get the 1st dose of Pfizer or Moderna asap vs the full JJ shot two weeks later? How about one week later?
Just figuring in terms of getting the full protection of any vaccine asap.. I know the saying is "get the one that you can get in your arm asap." But what if you can get the full JJ a week later? Mathematically, should you take the JJ then? Because ultimately, you get the full protection quicker than having to wait for that 2nd dose of Pfizer or Moderna? Know what I mean? LOL!
Offset by no protection for two weeks, and the most important part of the protection is against a severe, possibly fatal case. _________________ âWe must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.â â Elie Wiesel
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90307 Location: Formerly Known As 24
Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:24 pm Post subject:
jodeke wrote:
SweetP wrote:
jodeke wrote:
LakersRGolden wrote:
LarryCoon wrote:
BigBallerBrand wrote:
Anyway, the explanation that the efficacy rates of JJ versus Pfizer/moderna makes no sense to me. Why wonât they just all do new clinical trials now and see how Pfizer/Moderna performs today against the new strains to compare it to JJ? My guess is that they did and that Pfizer/Moderna perform very well (probably better than JJ) but they donât want to release that info bc they donât want people to lose confidence in the JJ. (Thatâs my opinion, not a fact)
Because there's no reason to repeat a clinical trial when something is in widespread use already. Think about it this way -- the world now IS the next clinical trial.
They continue to do trials for cohorts that were not tested in previous trials -- younger people, pregnant women, etc. While it is possible for trials with null or bad outcomes to be buried (the file drawer effect), that'd be tough to impossible with something of this size and visibility. Especially human subject trials, because of the IRB.
Why would Pfizer/Moderna run trials to see if their vaccines are less effective against variants? They have nothing to gain and a lot to lose. It's not like J&J can run trials for Pfizer/Moderna efficacy.
Your saying nothing to gain and a lot to lose seems to me you're equating the dollar to life.
Defeating the virus should be the main concern. In that vein efficacy is tantamount. The Colorado incident has put JJ efficacy in doubt.
Centura Health to stop using Johnson & Johnson vaccine at Colorado mass-vaccination sites
Centura Health will stop using the Johnson & Johnson vaccine at the three COVID-19 mass-vaccination sites it manages in Colorado, the health system announced Friday night, citing both a national shortage and a series of adverse reactions to the shots at its Commerce City location.
Instead, Centura will offer the two-dose Pfizer and Moderna vaccines beginning Saturday at the drive-up sites at Dickâs Sporting Goods Park in Commerce City, Broadmoor World Arena in Colorado Springs and the Colorado State Fairgrounds in Pueblo.
âThroughout the pandemic, we have remained flexible and nimble, always ready to adapt our processes and systems rooted in our commitment to âSafety First, People Always,ââ Peter D. Banko, president and CEO of Centura Health, said in a statement. âI applaud and support our incredible caregivers at Dickâs Sporting Goods Park for their courage to see something, say something, and stop the line.â
Centura shut down the mass-vaccination site at Dickâs Sporting Goods Park shut on Wednesday afternoon after 1,700 people had received the Johnson & Johnson vaccine. Of those, 11 people experienced dizziness and nausea in a span of less than four hours. None of the patients became seriously ill, though two were taken to an area hospital for observation because they had low blood pressure.
Not efficacy (how well it works/protects) but possibly safety (potential adverse effects).
I stand corrected. That being said it does put a cloud on JJ's vaccine. đđŸđŽđŸ
The reality is that there are very very few adverse reactions, and the J&J being a more potent dose makes some of them more like a strong second dose reaction (plus a higher amount of feeling faint or fainting). But this far, no signs of a serious problem, they are just being cautious. _________________ âWe must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.â â Elie Wiesel
The part of the article that didn't get copied and pasted above:
Quote:
On Thursday, the Colorado Department of Public Health and Environment, after consultation with the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, announced it had found âno cause for concernâ with the Johnson & Johnson vaccine. The Food and Drug Administration reported that other locations that used vaccines from the same batch didnât see any unusual reactions.
In its statement Friday night, Centura emphasized that the Johnson & Johnson vaccine âremains both extremely safe and effective.â The health network said it will continue to use the Johnson & Johnson vaccine in its physician clinics.
Quote:
Providers have administered 99,050 doses of the Johnson & Johnson vaccine in Colorado since it received federal authorization in late February. Prior to the 11 people who reported nausea and dizziness at the Dickâs Sporting Goods Park site on Wednesday, only 10 people had suffered adverse reactions at all previous mass-vaccination events in the state.
Joined: 17 Nov 2007 Posts: 67718 Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:48 pm Post subject:
Omar Little wrote:
jodeke wrote:
SweetP wrote:
jodeke wrote:
LakersRGolden wrote:
LarryCoon wrote:
BigBallerBrand wrote:
Anyway, the explanation that the efficacy rates of JJ versus Pfizer/moderna makes no sense to me. Why wonât they just all do new clinical trials now and see how Pfizer/Moderna performs today against the new strains to compare it to JJ? My guess is that they did and that Pfizer/Moderna perform very well (probably better than JJ) but they donât want to release that info bc they donât want people to lose confidence in the JJ. (Thatâs my opinion, not a fact)
Because there's no reason to repeat a clinical trial when something is in widespread use already. Think about it this way -- the world now IS the next clinical trial.
They continue to do trials for cohorts that were not tested in previous trials -- younger people, pregnant women, etc. While it is possible for trials with null or bad outcomes to be buried (the file drawer effect), that'd be tough to impossible with something of this size and visibility. Especially human subject trials, because of the IRB.
Why would Pfizer/Moderna run trials to see if their vaccines are less effective against variants? They have nothing to gain and a lot to lose. It's not like J&J can run trials for Pfizer/Moderna efficacy.
Your saying nothing to gain and a lot to lose seems to me you're equating the dollar to life.
Defeating the virus should be the main concern. In that vein efficacy is tantamount. The Colorado incident has put JJ efficacy in doubt.
Centura Health to stop using Johnson & Johnson vaccine at Colorado mass-vaccination sites
Centura Health will stop using the Johnson & Johnson vaccine at the three COVID-19 mass-vaccination sites it manages in Colorado, the health system announced Friday night, citing both a national shortage and a series of adverse reactions to the shots at its Commerce City location.
Instead, Centura will offer the two-dose Pfizer and Moderna vaccines beginning Saturday at the drive-up sites at Dickâs Sporting Goods Park in Commerce City, Broadmoor World Arena in Colorado Springs and the Colorado State Fairgrounds in Pueblo.
âThroughout the pandemic, we have remained flexible and nimble, always ready to adapt our processes and systems rooted in our commitment to âSafety First, People Always,ââ Peter D. Banko, president and CEO of Centura Health, said in a statement. âI applaud and support our incredible caregivers at Dickâs Sporting Goods Park for their courage to see something, say something, and stop the line.â
Centura shut down the mass-vaccination site at Dickâs Sporting Goods Park shut on Wednesday afternoon after 1,700 people had received the Johnson & Johnson vaccine. Of those, 11 people experienced dizziness and nausea in a span of less than four hours. None of the patients became seriously ill, though two were taken to an area hospital for observation because they had low blood pressure.
Not efficacy (how well it works/protects) but possibly safety (potential adverse effects).
I stand corrected. That being said it does put a cloud on JJ's vaccine. đđŸđŽđŸ
The reality is that there are very very few adverse reactions, and the J&J being a more potent dose makes some of them more like a strong second dose reaction (plus a higher amount of feeling faint or fainting). But this far, no signs of a serious problem, they are just being cautious.
This is true. My posting wasn't to infer danger, it was to show a reason those who don't want to be vaccinated may use as an excuse. I could have worded it better to convey my intent.
CL's post gives more clarification to what the article is saying. My point is an opinion on why the adverse effects may be cause for some not to vaccinate. As I said I could have worded my post better to convey my intent. _________________ Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
Last edited by jodeke on Sat Apr 10, 2021 1:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 6054 Location: My own little piece of reality
Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 1:01 pm Post subject:
Omar Little wrote:
Runway8 wrote:
What's better to do if you had a choice. Get the 1st dose of Pfizer or Moderna asap vs the full JJ shot two weeks later? How about one week later?
Just figuring in terms of getting the full protection of any vaccine asap.. I know the saying is "get the one that you can get in your arm asap." But what if you can get the full JJ a week later? Mathematically, should you take the JJ then? Because ultimately, you get the full protection quicker than having to wait for that 2nd dose of Pfizer or Moderna? Know what I mean? LOL!
Offset by no protection for two weeks, and the most important part of the protection is against a severe, possibly fatal case.
It does take a little time for your immune system to gear up with any of the vaccines, it's not like you get it and you are instantly protected.
That said, the most recent data I saw said pretty good protection from the first Pfizer vaccine by day 11 after the initial shot. Not perfect and you still want to get the second one but they have measured the titers of antibody production and it is non-existent to low for first week and then really kicks in by about day 11. Moderna likely to be similar. I haven't seen any response kinetic data for the J&J yet.
Bottom line is get the first injection you can get and get that immune system working! _________________ âThere is always light if only we're brave enough to see it, if only we're brave enough to be it.â --Amanda Gorman
Last edited by SweetP on Sat Apr 10, 2021 1:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 6054 Location: My own little piece of reality
Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 1:07 pm Post subject:
The J&J vaccine "issues" noted above are really pretty minor.
If I had to guess, I would also think people that are scared of needles, react viscerally to an injection are more likely to gravitate to the J&J because it is one and done so maybe more likely to feel a little lightheaded, etc.? Not saying they didn't feel the symptoms but might have been stress and once they saw some people reacting, more likely to feel more stress, possibly.
Anyway, I wouldn't get too concerned about it unless it becomes a consistent pattern and even then, really minor and that is why they have you stay for 15 min. _________________ âThere is always light if only we're brave enough to see it, if only we're brave enough to be it.â --Amanda Gorman
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90307 Location: Formerly Known As 24
Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 1:17 pm Post subject:
SweetP wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
Runway8 wrote:
What's better to do if you had a choice. Get the 1st dose of Pfizer or Moderna asap vs the full JJ shot two weeks later? How about one week later?
Just figuring in terms of getting the full protection of any vaccine asap.. I know the saying is "get the one that you can get in your arm asap." But what if you can get the full JJ a week later? Mathematically, should you take the JJ then? Because ultimately, you get the full protection quicker than having to wait for that 2nd dose of Pfizer or Moderna? Know what I mean? LOL!
Offset by no protection for two weeks, and the most important part of the protection is against a severe, possibly fatal case.
It does take a little time for your immune system to gear up with any of the vaccines, it's not like you get it and you are instantly protected.
That said, the most recent data I saw said pretty good protection from the first Pfizer vaccine by day 11 after the initial shot. Not perfect and you still want to get the second one but they have measured the titers of antibody production and it is non-existent to low for first week and then really kicks in by about day 11. Moderna likely to be similar. I haven't seen any response kinetic data for the J&J yet.
Bottom line is get the first injection you can get and get that immune system working!
Right. That was my point. The Pfizer or Moderna first shot is much better to have in those first two weeks than nothing, and by the time the J&J would be fully in effect in this hypothetical, youâd also be well on your way after your second shot. So not much to be gained waiting. _________________ âWe must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.â â Elie Wiesel
Anyway, the explanation that the efficacy rates of JJ versus Pfizer/moderna makes no sense to me. Why wonât they just all do new clinical trials now and see how Pfizer/Moderna performs today against the new strains to compare it to JJ? My guess is that they did and that Pfizer/Moderna perform very well (probably better than JJ) but they donât want to release that info bc they donât want people to lose confidence in the JJ. (Thatâs my opinion, not a fact)
Because there's no reason to repeat a clinical trial when something is in widespread use already. Think about it this way -- the world now IS the next clinical trial.
They continue to do trials for cohorts that were not tested in previous trials -- younger people, pregnant women, etc. While it is possible for trials with null or bad outcomes to be buried (the file drawer effect), that'd be tough to impossible with something of this size and visibility. Especially human subject trials, because of the IRB.
Why would Pfizer/Moderna run trials to see if their vaccines are less effective against variants? They have nothing to gain and a lot to lose. It's not like J&J can run trials for Pfizer/Moderna efficacy.
See emphasis above. You do a clinical trial against a sampling of subjects to gain information about what's likely to happen when the drug is in widespread use. Once it's in widespread use, they don't need to run clinical trials (a prospective study) because the widespread use itself is an observational study.
Joined: 13 Jan 2002 Posts: 7924 Location: Lake Forest
Posted: Sat Apr 10, 2021 1:56 pm Post subject:
jodeke wrote:
LakersRGolden wrote:
LarryCoon wrote:
BigBallerBrand wrote:
Anyway, the explanation that the efficacy rates of JJ versus Pfizer/moderna makes no sense to me. Why wonât they just all do new clinical trials now and see how Pfizer/Moderna performs today against the new strains to compare it to JJ? My guess is that they did and that Pfizer/Moderna perform very well (probably better than JJ) but they donât want to release that info bc they donât want people to lose confidence in the JJ. (Thatâs my opinion, not a fact)
Because there's no reason to repeat a clinical trial when something is in widespread use already. Think about it this way -- the world now IS the next clinical trial.
They continue to do trials for cohorts that were not tested in previous trials -- younger people, pregnant women, etc. While it is possible for trials with null or bad outcomes to be buried (the file drawer effect), that'd be tough to impossible with something of this size and visibility. Especially human subject trials, because of the IRB.
Why would Pfizer/Moderna run trials to see if their vaccines are less effective against variants? They have nothing to gain and a lot to lose. It's not like J&J can run trials for Pfizer/Moderna efficacy.
Your saying nothing to gain and a lot to lose seems to me you're equating the dollar to life.
Defeating the virus should be the main concern. In that vein efficacy is tantamount. The Colorado incident has put JJ efficacy in doubt.
Centura Health to stop using Johnson & Johnson vaccine at Colorado mass-vaccination sites
Centura Health will stop using the Johnson & Johnson vaccine at the three COVID-19 mass-vaccination sites it manages in Colorado, the health system announced Friday night, citing both a national shortage and a series of adverse reactions to the shots at its Commerce City location.
Instead, Centura will offer the two-dose Pfizer and Moderna vaccines beginning Saturday at the drive-up sites at Dickâs Sporting Goods Park in Commerce City, Broadmoor World Arena in Colorado Springs and the Colorado State Fairgrounds in Pueblo.
âThroughout the pandemic, we have remained flexible and nimble, always ready to adapt our processes and systems rooted in our commitment to âSafety First, People Always,ââ Peter D. Banko, president and CEO of Centura Health, said in a statement. âI applaud and support our incredible caregivers at Dickâs Sporting Goods Park for their courage to see something, say something, and stop the line.â
Centura shut down the mass-vaccination site at Dickâs Sporting Goods Park shut on Wednesday afternoon after 1,700 people had received the Johnson & Johnson vaccine. Of those, 11 people experienced dizziness and nausea in a span of less than four hours. None of the patients became seriously ill, though two were taken to an area hospital for observation because they had low blood pressure.
Testing Pfizer/Moderna won't tell you anything about the safety or efficacy of the J&J vaccine.
The only thing further testing would do would be to erode confidence in the one tool we have to combat COVID which will result in further loss of life.
If there ends up being a reason to question J&J, then you test J&J.
Got my first shot today. Moderna.
Appointment was at 2pm. Filed my appt online in 3 minutes.
Showed up to the site, checked in... took the shot... waited 15 minutes. Was sent on my way. Total of about 20 minutes.
5 and a half hours later- I feel fine. Slight soreness where I was given the shot... other than that.. all good. _________________ "Dread it, run from it... destiny arrives all the same."
2nd shot of Moderna Thursday and fully recovered. Felt a bit woozy at first. Fever and chills the first night. Tried running the next morning, but that didn't last. Pretty much slept until Saturday morning, only waking up to eat dinner. By yesterday morning I was normal.
I figure the entire process from no shots to now, including booking, waiting in line, commuting to and from the site, and recovery time was about 40 hours, and I was asleep for 30 of them.
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
