Last year with Ingram and the young core around Lebron, lottery.
This year with AD, vets and just Kuzma as the young developing player, 34-9 and #1 in the West.
Dumbest poll I ever seen. Typical nba2k, just look at the offensive end and not the overall impact of the player off n def. Record alone shows u who u should pick. I would have like to have kept BI, but Pelican would not have accepted any AD trade without him. Even if u think there is a way, no guarantee Pelican would have accepted the deal. We got AD and I am happy as a Laker fan he is here.
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144432 Location: The Gold Coast
Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:31 am Post subject:
MJST wrote:
Don Draper wrote:
The Ingram/Ball/#4 pick trade for AD is going to be one we talk about a lot in the future. So much depends on winning the championship this year. Unlike the Raptors and Kawhi, we gave up pretty much a decade of a potential future for this one shot (we really have to hope AD re-signs with us regardless of our playoff success).
if AD re-signs the FO will get a lot of credit and we'll start trying to build this team into something across the next 5 years, 3 of which will be after LeBron is gone and we start scheming for Giannis.
If AD goes elsewhere, the LeBron retirement tour starts that season. And we'll have nothing but another 7 years in the lottery. As we watch Russell, Ingram, Randle, Lonzo all start coming into their own further and owning up the league. And knowing that getting rid of all of them only resulted in us getting "1 year" in the playoffs, and nothing to show for it.
It would be one of those "talked about things" and the Lakers FO in retrospect will be looked at as a circus and a joke and the resignation of Jeanie will start to pick up steam along with fans wanting Pelinka fired. And every analyst will say "they could have waited one season for Anthony Davis" and ignore that they were screaming that BI, and Lonzo, and Russell wouldn't amount to anything in the league, weren't leaders, or were busts.
As it stands right now, Ingram is better than Ben Simmons, and that is something I never thought I'd be saying at this stage in their careers.
So essentially everything.... everything... the Lakers entire future as a franchise for the next 7 years.. rests upon Davis re-signing. If he doesn't... all the youngsters will grow into stars, while we are a lottery bound team hoping to get as lucky to draft such talent draft after draft after draft again. Cause if you think about it getting Randle, Russell, Ingram and Lonzo... was VERY lucky to hit the mark on 4 in a row. Especially considering where some of the other high end picks around them, have wound up.
I think that the thought that Lebron is gone in a couple of years is fantasy. I can see him hanging around until he is close to 40. Four more years at $40 mil per is substantial. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023.
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144432 Location: The Gold Coast
Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:36 am Post subject:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
34-9 or lottery (17-27).
Not hard to pick.
Last year with Ingram and the young core around Lebron, lottery.
This year with AD, vets and just Kuzma as the young developing player, 34-9 and #1 in the West.
Not really a hard decision here.
Last year Lebron was hurt and mailed it in when he returned. Let’s not distort the truth to support a poor opinion. Notice that the record without AD isn’t worse than the record with him. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023.
Why do you think Lebron was unable to play as well? What you call mailing it, I call Lebron not being as effective as he is with this veteran group around him. Everyone has a role on this year's team and Lebron understands his own role a lot better. Just like with Kyle Kuzma being better without AD/Lebron, Ingram is the same way. He needs touches. The same type of touches that Lebron needs/covets. The Lakers were building the team around Lebron, and Ingram did not fit, not nearly as well as AD does. Since AD is able to play as a above the rim target, as a post target, as a guy who moves and you can find him on the move to the paint (not to mention a post sprinter, screen setter etc) he compliments Lebron so much better. Then lets not even talk about defense, where AD is the most valuable defender in the league, for what he can do and how much ground he can cover.
The 18-19 team had a lot of young pieces and individual upside, but together as a unit they were too many flaws to be able to win consistently.
Anthony Davis has made the all NBA team he is the league leader for DPOTY. He has been in MVP talk multiple times in his career. He is the best big man in the game, and similar to Tim Duncan, he can slide over to 5 even if his preferred position is 4. The only risk with AD is injuries - because at his frame and the way he plays he is a walking injury waiting to happen. If his body can stay strong and he puts a lot of work in the gym, he should be able to have a long career.
I think some fans need to go find Pelicansground.net - because it seems they are more about the name of the back of the jersey instead of the front. The Lakers have completely changed their identity over these last few months, front office included. It is all about collaboration and positive winning culture. Freaking Dwight Howard is coming here and having a change in how he plays. Yet we're still hearing the same old, same old. Just wait for a game where the Lakers finally don't show up (it has happened only a few times this season, last night included) and pile away on the guy who came in for the players who went out.
Just guess who challenged Lebron to stop playing mediocre to bad defense? It was AD. Why? He shows up himself on defense (yesterday withstanding) almost every possession. He challenged Bron to step up his D. That is why you have seen a shift in Lebron this season. I think maybe Jimmy Butler could have done that, but Ingram, no. Guys have to be able to defend and carry a team defensively to be able to challenge Lebron like that. If you have young players with a lot of talent, you get a lot of nice individual games and numbers, but they don't lead to wins, and they don't lead to the championship that the Lakers are trying to win around Lebron. Sure, one can make an argument about Lebron, and signing him or not. But once we signed Lebron, getting AD was a no brainer. It was the easiest decision to make, IMO.
Joined: 21 Feb 2008 Posts: 28422 Location: LA --> Bay Area
Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:44 am Post subject:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
Why do you think Lebron was unable to play as well? What you call mailing it, I call Lebron not being as effective as he is with this veteran group around him. Everyone has a role on this year's team and Lebron understands his own role a lot better. Just like with Kyle Kuzma being better without AD/Lebron, Ingram is the same way. He needs touches. The same type of touches that Lebron needs/covets. The Lakers were building the team around Lebron, and Ingram did not fit, not nearly as well as AD does. Since AD is able to play as a above the rim target, as a post target, as a guy who moves and you can find him on the move to the paint (not to mention a post sprinter, screen setter etc) he compliments Lebron so much better. Then lets not even talk about defense, where AD is the most valuable defender in the league, for what he can do and how much ground he can cover.
The 18-19 team had a lot of young pieces and individual upside, but together as a unit they were too many flaws to be able to win consistently.
Anthony Davis has made the all NBA team he is the league leader for DPOTY. He has been in MVP talk multiple times in his career. He is the best big man in the game, and similar to Tim Duncan, he can slide over to 5 even if his preferred position is 4. The only risk with AD is injuries - because at his frame and the way he plays he is a walking injury waiting to happen. If his body can stay strong and he puts a lot of work in the gym, he should be able to have a long career.
I think some fans need to go find Pelicansground.net - because it seems they are more about the name of the back of the jersey instead of the front. The Lakers have completely changed their identity over these last few months, front office included. It is all about collaboration and positive winning culture. Freaking Dwight Howard is coming here and having a change in how he plays. Yet we're still hearing the same old, same old. Just wait for a game where the Lakers finally don't show up (it has happened only a few times this season, last night included) and pile away on the guy who came in for the players who went out.
Just guess who challenged Lebron to stop playing mediocre to bad defense? It was AD. Why? He shows up himself on defense (yesterday withstanding) almost every possession. He challenged Bron to step up his D. That is why you have seen a shift in Lebron this season. I think maybe Jimmy Butler could have done that, but Ingram, no. Guys have to be able to defend and carry a team defensively to be able to challenge Lebron like that. If you have young players with a lot of talent, you get a lot of nice individual games and numbers, but they don't lead to wins, and they don't lead to the championship that the Lakers are trying to win around Lebron. Sure, one can make an argument about Lebron, and signing him or not. But once we signed Lebron, getting AD was a no brainer. It was the easiest decision to make, IMO.
These are all really good points. Honestly, I was just surprised that BI has looked this good this year. He had similar stats with us post all-star break, but he didn't look as impactful on the court.
For this year and next it's probably better to have AD for the reasons you stated. But once LeBron begins seriously declining and it's essentially those two plus the spare parts we can afford to put around them, it will be a real question as to whether we'd have been better off with a decade of BI, Lonzo, and the #4 pick (winning a ring of course makes AD completely worth it, but with how we're looking against other contenders that's a big question mark).
Only problem with AD is that we're putting all of our eggs in one basket whereas with Ingram and the first rounders, we're spreading our eggs around so if the basket breaks, we don't lose all of our eggs. The AD trade looked good until he started getting hurt. Then it doesn't look as good.
we was not going to win nothing with last year team before lbj came here
small sample size but we looked pretty good without AD this season. I still blame assistant coach Walton for our failure last year since we had quite a good team.
I still blame the ownership for being so inept at finding the right coaches then hiring a fan as head of basketball operations.
I would rather have AD and, honestly, about 20 or 30 other players over BI. We would probably be a 7 seed team without veterans willing to come here for a title run if we didn't have AD.
I did it with DLO so I can understand the sentiment.
But it got old for me real quickly. Spending time thinking about your ex-GFs (especially those who are married) can take you down strange rabbit holes where you no longer exist in reality. BI is gone. He's never coming back. I can understand lamenting it but at some point, you have to let it go. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals
Joined: 17 Nov 2007 Posts: 67312 Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:01 am Post subject:
I want both. We shoulda traded Kuz. I was informed recently NO wanted Kuz instead of BI. _________________ Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
Last year with Ingram and the young core around Lebron, lottery.
This year with AD, vets and just Kuzma as the young developing player, 34-9 and #1 in the West.
Not really a hard decision here.
Last year Lebron was hurt and mailed it in when he returned. Let’s not distort the truth to support a poor opinion. Notice that the record without AD isn’t worse than the record with him.
You talk about distorting the truth, and then point to a small sample size to make a point about AD's impact this year?
Why do you think Lebron was unable to play as well? What you call mailing it, I call Lebron not being as effective as he is with this veteran group around him. Everyone has a role on this year's team and Lebron understands his own role a lot better. Just like with Kyle Kuzma being better without AD/Lebron, Ingram is the same way. He needs touches. The same type of touches that Lebron needs/covets. The Lakers were building the team around Lebron, and Ingram did not fit, not nearly as well as AD does. Since AD is able to play as a above the rim target, as a post target, as a guy who moves and you can find him on the move to the paint (not to mention a post sprinter, screen setter etc) he compliments Lebron so much better. Then lets not even talk about defense, where AD is the most valuable defender in the league, for what he can do and how much ground he can cover.
The 18-19 team had a lot of young pieces and individual upside, but together as a unit they were too many flaws to be able to win consistently.
Anthony Davis has made the all NBA team he is the league leader for DPOTY. He has been in MVP talk multiple times in his career. He is the best big man in the game, and similar to Tim Duncan, he can slide over to 5 even if his preferred position is 4. The only risk with AD is injuries - because at his frame and the way he plays he is a walking injury waiting to happen. If his body can stay strong and he puts a lot of work in the gym, he should be able to have a long career.
I think some fans need to go find Pelicansground.net - because it seems they are more about the name of the back of the jersey instead of the front. The Lakers have completely changed their identity over these last few months, front office included. It is all about collaboration and positive winning culture. Freaking Dwight Howard is coming here and having a change in how he plays. Yet we're still hearing the same old, same old. Just wait for a game where the Lakers finally don't show up (it has happened only a few times this season, last night included) and pile away on the guy who came in for the players who went out.
Just guess who challenged Lebron to stop playing mediocre to bad defense? It was AD. Why? He shows up himself on defense (yesterday withstanding) almost every possession. He challenged Bron to step up his D. That is why you have seen a shift in Lebron this season. I think maybe Jimmy Butler could have done that, but Ingram, no. Guys have to be able to defend and carry a team defensively to be able to challenge Lebron like that. If you have young players with a lot of talent, you get a lot of nice individual games and numbers, but they don't lead to wins, and they don't lead to the championship that the Lakers are trying to win around Lebron. Sure, one can make an argument about Lebron, and signing him or not. But once we signed Lebron, getting AD was a no brainer. It was the easiest decision to make, IMO.
While I agree AD > young guys is the way to go, last year is hard to point to as compelling evidence that Lebron/young guys can't even be successful to some lesser degree than 34-9. Obviously the injuries are one reason, but the other element is that Magic was responsible for building around the edges of that team and famously/quite embarrassingly did a piss poor job of assessing our needs versus what has worked for Lebron in the past. He's the one who dropped Rondo on us (!!!), among other (bleep) signings like Lance and Beasley.
If you chart out where we could realistically be this season without AD, it wouldn't just be Lebron/BI/Zo/Kuz/Hart, because you would still have the means to add a Danny Green, Avery Bradley, Dwight Howard etc. to that core. Or who knows what other guys were on the table for our cap space, had we not been strung along by Kawhi, which may not have even happened without AD on board. The point is we could've added pieces that fit around Lebron and the kids better and amplified what they could've been collectively as a core unit, plus health, yada yada.
I want both. We shoulda traded Kuz. I was informed recently NO wanted Kuz instead of BI.
If Pels were willing to do an AD trade with BI it would have been done. They got nearly everything they wanted. Heck, they chose Hart over Kuz. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals
I just think a Zo/BI/LBJ/Kuz grouping was never going to work out.
BI is a #1 option/go to scorer type of player that would never have happened here under LBJ, or even if we had PG or KL instead of LBJ. He got a lot of runway to spread his wings and he's killing it over there. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals
I just think a Zo/BI/LBJ/Kuz grouping was never going to work out.
BI is a #1 option/go to scorer type of player that would never have happened here under LBJ, or even if we had PG or KL instead of LBJ. He got a lot of runway to spread his wings and he's killing it over there.
I think it could've worked with better coaching, lineups, and pieces around them, basically smarter management that what Magic and Luke gave us. Imagine we kept Brook that first year instead of signing Mcgee, then re-sign him over the summer. You still get Danny Green this year. And that's not even asking for miracles or unrealistic (bleep) to have happened, both were completely in the cards.
Brook/BI/Lebron/Green/Zo doesn't get the job done? That's plenty of spacing for both Lebron and BI to work with. It's not a finals contender like we have now, but that's a damn good starting lineup. Just playing devil's advocate, because I'm not sure if Lebron/young guys got the fair look it deserved last season due to health and the people that oversaw it.
I still completely agree that AD is ultimately the way to go, both because of his overall 2-way impact (you don't pass on generational defensive talent) and Lebron's timeline not matching up with the young guys.
I just think a Zo/BI/LBJ/Kuz grouping was never going to work out.
BI is a #1 option/go to scorer type of player that would never have happened here under LBJ, or even if we had PG or KL instead of LBJ. He got a lot of runway to spread his wings and he's killing it over there.
I think it could've worked with better coaching, lineups, and pieces around them, basically smarter management that what Magic and Luke gave us. Imagine we kept Brook that first year instead of signing Mcgee, then re-sign him over the summer. You still get Danny Green this year. And that's not even asking for miracles or unrealistic (bleep) to have happened, both were completely in the cards.
Brook/BI/Lebron/Green/Zo doesn't get the job done? That's plenty of spacing for both Lebron and BI to work with. It's not a finals contender like we have now, but that's a damn good starting lineup. Just playing devil's advocate, because I'm not sure if Lebron/young guys got the fair look it deserved last season due to health and the people that oversaw it.
I still completely agree that AD is ultimately the way to go, both because of his overall 2-way impact (you don't pass on generational defensive talent) and Lebron's timeline not matching up with the young guys.
I just think that BI's growth would be stunted b/c he wants to be in LBJ (or Kawhi or PG's) role as the lead guy. _________________ From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals
Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:35 pm Post subject: Re: Brandon Ingram or Anthony Davis?
Don Draper wrote:
Now that we have familiarized ourselves with AD's strengths and limitations, how does he compare to the main guy we gave up, Brandon Ingram? If you could go back in time before the trade knowing what you know now, who do you pick moving forward?
For the record their stats and shooting percentages are...
Ingram
25.6 points, 6.8 rebounds, 4.3 assists
on
48/40/86
Davis
27.1 points, 9.4 rebounds, 3.2 assists
on
50/30/86
A reminder also that—if we disappoint this year and get bounced in the 1st or 2nd round—it's definitely not guaranteed that AD is coming back.
BI
BPM 2.4
VORP 1.5
WS/48 .141
114 O rating 113 D Rating
AD
BPM 6.8
VORP 2.8
WS/48 .258
120 O rating 101 D Rating
These two players are on different planets if you look at advanced analytics.
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