Honest discussion about Pit Bull dogs?
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Surfitall
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:14 pm    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
Nurture is the greater variable than nature when it comes to dog attacks. Which occur X times more than actual fatal incidents involving dogs.

Sure, pit bulls and rottweilers have a greater physical ability to do harm with their bites than other breeds of dogs.
But genetics aren't the determining factor for whether they attack or not.


But genetics do play a role in their ability to hurt or kill humans and other animals. It is well documented by humane groups that to excel in dogfighting, pit bulls were selectively bred to conceal warning signals prior to an attack.

https://www.dogsbite.org/pdf/2004-excerpts-dog-bite-prevention-law-enforcement.pdf

"The main impediment to reading a dog's communication is when the dog is a fighting breed. The best strategy for a fighting breed is to not communicate your intention. This is why we hear about so may fighting breeds attacking without warning. Meaning there was
no growl, there was no bark, there was no direct stare, the dog just went from point a to point b and did what he wanted to do."

Let's just assume for a minute that this is true...would you not concede that this trait makes them more dangerous to humans and other animals than other dogs that don't have this trait?
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:47 pm    Post subject:

Surfitall wrote:
kikanga wrote:
Nurture is the greater variable than nature when it comes to dog attacks. Which occur X times more than actual fatal incidents involving dogs.

Sure, pit bulls and rottweilers have a greater physical ability to do harm with their bites than other breeds of dogs.
But genetics aren't the determining factor for whether they attack or not.


But genetics do play a role in their ability to hurt or kill humans and other animals. It is well documented by humane groups that to excel in dogfighting, pit bulls were selectively bred to conceal warning signals prior to an attack.

https://www.dogsbite.org/pdf/2004-excerpts-dog-bite-prevention-law-enforcement.pdf

"The main impediment to reading a dog's communication is when the dog is a fighting breed. The best strategy for a fighting breed is to not communicate your intention. This is why we hear about so may fighting breeds attacking without warning. Meaning there was
no growl, there was no bark, there was no direct stare, the dog just went from point a to point b and did what he wanted to do."

Let's just assume for a minute that this is true...would you not concede that this trait makes them more dangerous to humans and other animals than other dogs that don't have this trait?
The sentence preceding your quote is important for context:
"As soon as we dock their tails and crop their ears -- as is the case with fighting breeds -- we lose critical communication with the dog.“

Dogs communicate with their tails and ears, among other things. Docking and cropping DOES limit the cues of aggression as well as giving less for the other fighting dog to grab ahold of, and MAY indicate that the dog came from a fighting background. Dogs give subtle cues - ears back, active tail, panting, locked-on stare can be indicators, but a conscientious owner expects their dog to be calm and submissive exhibiting none of that. Anything less is itself an indication of potential aggression and should be dealt with.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:26 pm    Post subject:

Pit Bulls as a breed are generally a bit too wound up for my liking, I prefer mellower dogs.

I had much the same opinion of Rottweilers however but one of my best friends got a Rottweiler puppy and has raised it all the way with a lot of love and care and it is one of the friendliest, mellowest dogs I have ever had the pleasure to be around.

So certainly the owner is key when raising a dog (or anything else) but I just think Pit Bulls in general are so wound up that they are a major challenge for an owner.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:01 pm    Post subject:

Been around pit bulls all my life never had an issue. Wouldn’t hesitate to own one from a pup
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:13 pm    Post subject:

LakerLanny wrote:
Pit Bulls as a breed are generally a bit too wound up for my liking, I prefer mellower dogs.

I had much the same opinion of Rottweilers however but one of my best friends got a Rottweiler puppy and has raised it all the way with a lot of love and care and it is one of the friendliest, mellowest dogs I have ever had the pleasure to be around.

So certainly the owner is key when raising a dog (or anything else) but I just think Pit Bulls in general are so wound up that they are a major challenge for an owner.

Had a lady friend with a Rott. He was fragile. It's my understanding Rotts require a lot of TLC.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:40 pm    Post subject:

BadGuy wrote:
ChickenStu wrote:
Just my opinion, but I think it's irresponsible of any parent with a small child at home to have any of the dog breeds with more dangerous, aggressive bites, and among those are pit bulls. You can include Rottweilers and other breeds. Like, could any dog get angry and, in theory, wig out and bite? Sure. But my mixed terrier, even if he for some reason got angry and showed his teeth, isn't going to inflict serious damage on the same level that we've seen pit bulls and other breeds clearly do. So that's where I am on the issue.

That said, pit bulls are awesome dogs if all environments are equal.


Out of curiosity, do German Shepherds (or basically all big dogs) fall into this category for you?

Edit: Also, my sis had a chunk of her face bitten off by one of those "small and friendly" dogs whereas my German Shepherd has never even attempted to bite someone after he reached the age of 3 months old.


I could look this up, but I'm just going to be honest with you and say that I'm not sure how German Shepherds are in terms of anger. I just know that they are bigger dogs and that they seem to be used by the police a lot. I've never really been around them in my family, nor had friends that had them, so I have nothing to offer even anecdotally here.

As for what your sister experienced, I'm sorry to hear that and I hope there were no lasting effects. I am the "uncle" of a family friend who is now about 25, and when he was 3 he had his face essentially torn off by a Rottweiler and underwent a lot of surgeries to put his face back together. Thankfully, there were no long-term effects for him, although scars on the right side of his face from the surgeries are clearly visible. (They are light scars, but you still see them.)
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:44 pm    Post subject:

Different breeds have different temperaments to be sure, but individual dogs take non-verbal cues from their owner and mimic their demeanor and reactions. Standing and calmly ignoring a dog should translate to the dog laying down submissively. If you are hyper or excited or tense, you are training the dog to follow your lead whether intentional or not.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:51 pm    Post subject:

Since Jan. 1 at my work there have been 6 ICU transfers down to us for dog bites/mauling/eyeballs ripped out...2 toddlers, 4 infants. All pit bulls.

but yeah, #notallpitbulls!
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:09 pm    Post subject:

Huey Lewis & The News wrote:
Since Jan. 1 at my work there have been 6 ICU transfers down to us for dog bites/mauling/eyeballs ripped out...2 toddlers, 4 infants. All pit bulls.

but yeah, #notallpitbulls!


Dear god 6 dog incidents in 10 days. Wow.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:23 pm    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
Huey Lewis & The News wrote:
Since Jan. 1 at my work there have been 6 ICU transfers down to us for dog bites/mauling/eyeballs ripped out...2 toddlers, 4 infants. All pit bulls.

but yeah, #notallpitbulls!


Dear god 6 dog incidents in 10 days. Wow.


Those are just the ones that made it out of intensive care. ER has had at least that many more with 1 fatality.

Dog bites are common cases here, but per my observation, other dogs, even the ones with greater bite strength, do not tend to tear out throats, fingers, scalps, etc. as frequently, as successfully as pit bulls have.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:41 pm    Post subject:

Huey Lewis & The News wrote:
kikanga wrote:
Huey Lewis & The News wrote:
Since Jan. 1 at my work there have been 6 ICU transfers down to us for dog bites/mauling/eyeballs ripped out...2 toddlers, 4 infants. All pit bulls.

but yeah, #notallpitbulls!


Dear god 6 dog incidents in 10 days. Wow.


Those are just the ones that made it out of intensive care. ER has had at least that many more with 1 fatality.

Dog bites are common cases here, but per my observation, other dogs, even the ones with greater bite strength, do not tend to tear out throats, fingers, scalps, etc. as frequently, as successfully as pit bulls have.


I was wondering. Cause I used to work in an ER. And I'd say we got dog incidents maybe once or twice every 10 days. Like all things, location matters.
Not all of them were pitbulls. But almost all of them were dogs that weren't raised by the victim's family. And many had a history of aggression.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:35 pm    Post subject:

Huey Lewis & The News wrote:
Since Jan. 1 at my work there have been 6 ICU transfers down to us for dog bites/mauling/eyeballs ripped out...2 toddlers, 4 infants. All pit bulls.

but yeah, #notallpitbulls!


Although technically in your case...#allpitbulls
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:40 pm    Post subject:

My small dog was attacked by a neighbor's loose pit bull a few years ago and survived. Not more than a few months after the first attack another pit bull loose on the street came towards me and my two dogs and ran straight into a size 13 boot to the face. I kicked the pit bull and started yelling at it. I'm 6 foot 200 lbs and the dog just brushed it off. I waved my arms, stomped my feet, and yelled at it and it just lost interest and went on its way.

My family doesn't take the dogs past the end of the block anymore.

If the creature has the potential to fatally harm (physically powerful and does not release bite) and has an instinct to hunt/fight I think we need to have strict control over that animal and who can own it.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:14 am    Post subject:

Huey Lewis & The News wrote:
Since Jan. 1 at my work there have been 6 ICU transfers down to us for dog bites/mauling/eyeballs ripped out...2 toddlers, 4 infants. All pit bulls.

but yeah, #notallpitbulls!
Disgustingly horrific. I wonder what the best solution is?
1. Kill the 4,500,000 American Pits currently alive
2. Something else
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:11 am    Post subject:

JerryMagicKobe wrote:
Huey Lewis & The News wrote:
Since Jan. 1 at my work there have been 6 ICU transfers down to us for dog bites/mauling/eyeballs ripped out...2 toddlers, 4 infants. All pit bulls.

but yeah, #notallpitbulls!
Disgustingly horrific. I wonder what the best solution is?
1. Kill the 4,500,000 American Pits currently alive
2. Something else


2.) neuter all male pitbulls, force the females into hiding and social death
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:30 am    Post subject:

Huey Lewis & The News wrote:
JerryMagicKobe wrote:
Huey Lewis & The News wrote:
Since Jan. 1 at my work there have been 6 ICU transfers down to us for dog bites/mauling/eyeballs ripped out...2 toddlers, 4 infants. All pit bulls.

but yeah, #notallpitbulls!
Disgustingly horrific. I wonder what the best solution is?
1. Kill the 4,500,000 American Pits currently alive
2. Something else


2.) neuter all male pitbulls, force the females into hiding and social death


I'm tempted to think of similar solutions for alcohol and gun related deaths. Which dwarf recorded pit bull incidents.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:30 am    Post subject:

Huey Lewis & The News wrote:
JerryMagicKobe wrote:
Huey Lewis & The News wrote:
Since Jan. 1 at my work there have been 6 ICU transfers down to us for dog bites/mauling/eyeballs ripped out...2 toddlers, 4 infants. All pit bulls.

but yeah, #notallpitbulls!
Disgustingly horrific. I wonder what the best solution is?
1. Kill the 4,500,000 American Pits currently alive
2. Something else


2.) neuter all male pitbulls, force the females into hiding and social death


I'm tempted to think of similar hardline solutions for alcohol and gun related deaths. Which dwarf recorded pit bull incidents.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:42 am    Post subject:

Huey Lewis & The News wrote:
JerryMagicKobe wrote:
Huey Lewis & The News wrote:
Since Jan. 1 at my work there have been 6 ICU transfers down to us for dog bites/mauling/eyeballs ripped out...2 toddlers, 4 infants. All pit bulls.

but yeah, #notallpitbulls!
Disgustingly horrific. I wonder what the best solution is?
1. Kill the 4,500,000 American Pits currently alive
2. Something else


2.) neuter all male pitbulls, force the females into hiding and social death


I'm tempted to think of similar hardline solutions for alcohol and gun related deaths. Which dwarf recorded pit bull incidents.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:44 am    Post subject:

ChickenStu wrote:
BadGuy wrote:
ChickenStu wrote:
Just my opinion, but I think it's irresponsible of any parent with a small child at home to have any of the dog breeds with more dangerous, aggressive bites, and among those are pit bulls. You can include Rottweilers and other breeds. Like, could any dog get angry and, in theory, wig out and bite? Sure. But my mixed terrier, even if he for some reason got angry and showed his teeth, isn't going to inflict serious damage on the same level that we've seen pit bulls and other breeds clearly do. So that's where I am on the issue.

That said, pit bulls are awesome dogs if all environments are equal.


Out of curiosity, do German Shepherds (or basically all big dogs) fall into this category for you?

Edit: Also, my sis had a chunk of her face bitten off by one of those "small and friendly" dogs whereas my German Shepherd has never even attempted to bite someone after he reached the age of 3 months old.


I could look this up, but I'm just going to be honest with you and say that I'm not sure how German Shepherds are in terms of anger. I just know that they are bigger dogs and that they seem to be used by the police a lot. I've never really been around them in my family, nor had friends that had them, so I have nothing to offer even anecdotally here.

As for what your sister experienced, I'm sorry to hear that and I hope there were no lasting effects. I am the "uncle" of a family friend who is now about 25, and when he was 3 he had his face essentially torn off by a Rottweiler and underwent a lot of surgeries to put his face back together. Thankfully, there were no long-term effects for him, although scars on the right side of his face from the surgeries are clearly visible. (They are light scars, but you still see them.)


Fair enough. The point i was trying to make is that *most* (almost all) of the small dogs i see are poorly trained because of the logic that they cannot do as much damage as bigger dogs.

While a bigger dog can do more damage naturally (as you mentioned), i've noticed that training is a huge factor. When my 110 pound dog gets off leash (only happened a few times when he was younger), he'll charge a random person, jump up at them, lick them on the face, and run away hoping they'll chase him This scares the crap out of the few people he's done it to, but none of them have even considered complaining after these "incidents". I've had small dogs run up to me and aggressively attack/bite me and/or my dog multiple times.

Ultimately, i always blame the owners for these dog attacks. None of my family's dogs (almost all of them are big: rottweiler, cane corso, german shepherd, etc.) have ever bitten anyone. Yet, i see small dogs out of control all the time with clueless owners nearby. i think the issue is a lot of people that buy Pit Bulls are training the dog to be aggressive or are aggressive people themselves. if you're constantly abusing your family members or friends in front of your dog, what do you think your dog is going to do (after watching and learning from you as the leader)?
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:34 am    Post subject:

JerryMagicKobe wrote:
Huey Lewis & The News wrote:
Since Jan. 1 at my work there have been 6 ICU transfers down to us for dog bites/mauling/eyeballs ripped out...2 toddlers, 4 infants. All pit bulls.

but yeah, #notallpitbulls!
Disgustingly horrific. I wonder what the best solution is?
1. Kill the 4,500,000 American Pits currently alive
2. Something else


there's already a ban on pitbull in commercial transport (flights) I think. If the statistic of unprovoked pitbull attack causing severe/fatal injury is significant than maybe further restriction such as expanding public/commercial transport restriction, required restrictive kennel when pitbull is not on leash at home, required leash at all time of 6' or less when outside the house... to start, maybe?
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:03 am    Post subject:

Hammett wrote:
My small dog was attacked by a neighbor's loose pit bull a few years ago and survived. Not more than a few months after the first attack another pit bull loose on the street came towards me and my two dogs and ran straight into a size 13 boot to the face. I kicked the pit bull and started yelling at it. I'm 6 foot 200 lbs and the dog just brushed it off. I waved my arms, stomped my feet, and yelled at it and it just lost interest and went on its way.

My family doesn't take the dogs past the end of the block anymore.

If the creature has the potential to fatally harm (physically powerful and does not release bite) and has an instinct to hunt/fight I think we need to have strict control over that animal and who can own it.


I have been to lucky to avoid a pit bull attack, but I've had this occur too. Walking the dog at a nearby park is becoming the default routine. Jacking up criminal prosecutions and fines for the owners seems to be the only solution. Maybe make it harder for people to buy and adopt these dogs. I don't think they really care about them. I had one neighbor who moved out and just left the animal in the back.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:11 am    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
LakerLanny wrote:
LongBeachPoly wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
Ah, so Adkindo merely transposed roosters to dogs. By accident...


Animal cruelty is barbaric. Supporting any form is a bad mark on that state/US territory.

For all we know, Adkindo could be saying that let’s not be like Puerto Rico which still supports animal cruelty.

I’d like to hear Adkindo. Maybe it just came out wrong.

Doesn’t sound to me like he’s putting down Puerto Rico or Puerto Ricans. Just the animal cruelty part.

The thing is, Puerto Rico is a nationality and a US Territory. If he was to say, let’s not be like Texas, people wouldn’t be as triggered.


People that have traveled internationally (i.e. outside the contiguous 48) know that unfortunately dogs and especially stray dogs are not handled the same way as here in the USA as far as ownership or societal norms. I am not judging it, but to ignore it is silly.


Sure, but that wasn’t the purpose of bringing up Puerto Rico, or else he would have brought up a country that actually allows dog fighting. And again, it wasn’t necessary to add “we aren’t Puerto Rico” or anywhere else to his sentence that we shouldn’t tolerate dog fighting. It stands just fine on its own. There’s a reason for the addition, and it’s very likely tied to the reason he has stopped by but not answered anything in this thread. This isn’t a one off.


You have issues my man. The fact is you are ignorant of what is taking place in Puerto Rico today, and has been a topic that has received much national attention, and an extreme amount of local attention in my area. Your comment about "this is not a one off" suggests what? I have an issue with Puerto Rico or Puerto Ricans? At least half of my friends and neighbors are Puerto Ricans. How about you? I have visited the island several times for voluntary recreation because I love the place.....how about you? I can tell you about some of my favorite places from San Juan to Fajardo....how about you? I have went with Puerto Rican friends to meet with residents for adult fun and also taken my daughter there multiple times for family fun....how about you?

You have a nasty habit of being dead wrong about claims you make, and then even when it is clear you are wrong, you feel the need to double down....and that clearly is not a one off. I will be clear with you....you have made comments before and tried to pass them off as not being serious.....do not call me or infer that I am a racist unless you have support for that statement. We do not agree on many things....but that should not lead to you routinely attributing bad personal characteristics to me because it makes you feel more secure.


First of all, I apologize for the lateness of responding to you. My GF found out pretty suddenly that she had a torn retina and they scheduled and performed laser surgery on her ASAP. So I was dealing with that.

But that is as good a segue as any into what I meant by not a one off. I meant, as we have discussed before, the propensity to say something inflammatory and then go away (and often stop by other threads in the forum and even the thread where you posted the inflammatory remark--pro tip, you don't have to post in order for us to see what thread you are in--and then later claim you are busy at work and such and don't have time to come back and you never saw the responses). That happens a lot, which gives less benefit of the doubt.

Regarding PR, I am not an expert (although neither are you), and while you have Puerto Rican people around you, I have an employee who came here directly from there, and he thought your post was pretty deliberate as well. The issue with wanting the ban raised relates to rooster fighting, which is a long cultural thing in the PR, and one I support being banned, just as dog fighting is a long standing thing in the contiguous US.

And yes, there is dog fighting in PR, just as there is where you are, and yes, just like where you are there are a lot of local officials happy to look the other way. But the whole point here was to point to PR wanting to allow rooster fighting and conflate it to dogs, and because it is happening among officials who have some popular support it makes a nice jab,

That was my point. Your statement didn't lose a single thing if you just excised the words "we're not Puerto Rico", because it was completely extraneous to the argument. And there's a reason that pretty much everyone who read your post reacted to the statement. You didn't need to point to them trying to legalize rooster fighting in order to make your point that we shouldn't tolerate dog fighting. It was gratuitous. And quite clearly meant to take a shot at PR. I can't really prove or even know whether you meant it primarily to incite or are just casual enough with it to think that it isn't a big deal or even think that there was no negativity toward Puerto Ricans involved. Your response to the hubbub not being, "hey, I'm sorry, that's not what I meant and I get it wasn't clear" but instead being more of the eff you variety indicates some lack of desire to care about clarity and sensitivity with such remarks, but as I said earlier, I'm not inclined to run someone, even if I have suspicions, on the basis of those suspicions. I gave you that benefit here.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:49 pm    Post subject:

whoops

http://ktla.com/2020/02/10/5-year-old-boy-killed-in-attacked-by-family-pit-bull-in-oro-grande/
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 11:26 am    Post subject:

C M B wrote:
whoops

http://ktla.com/2020/02/10/5-year-old-boy-killed-in-attacked-by-family-pit-bull-in-oro-grande/


ooops
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:01 pm    Post subject:

A vet tech recommended a pit bull (as well as a lab) as good dog breeds to have around kids. We lost our dog 2 weeks ago and the youngest has never been alone and is barely eating. Outdoor dogs. I have two little girls (16 months and 2 months) so I need that straight straight info.
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