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AllorNothing Franchise Player
Joined: 08 Oct 2001 Posts: 18448
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Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 5:02 am Post subject: |
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Luminous8 wrote: | Mike@LG wrote: | audioaxes wrote: | pjiddy wrote: | This thread really underscores what a piss poor understanding Rob has of "shooting" (or basketball in general). And two of the guys he signed (Cook and Daniels) are basically unplayable because of their defense. The rest of the "shooters" have duplicative skills and/or are being used the wrong way. He's also counting Rondo's zero gravity 35% shooting and Bradley's 2015 numbers as "better shooting."
Not good! |
this is something that has me so frustrated about or coaching and FO. They should be smart enough to realize that Rondo's 35ish% shooting on wide open "I dare you to shoot" 3s is actually piss poor and in the meantime his defender is able to help off on others making it harder for Lebron and AD to operate
a good 3 point shooter is going to force teams to space out the paint more and still end up shooting 40% on high volume 3s |
You know those 3 on 3 tournaments where every team has a token shooter or two?
This team feels like that, but it's 5 on 5. 2 franchise players, 3 shooters. Spot up guys too, not motion guys. |
Daniels can come off screens |
Is Kuzma a poor motion guy? |
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lar9149 Star Player
Joined: 10 Jul 2010 Posts: 2342
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Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:11 am Post subject: |
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venturalakersfan wrote: | Mike@LG wrote: | Hate to tell you this but they're almost all spot up guys.
Green and KCP are maybe average at running off screens.
Dribble pull ups, I think it's Green and Cook. |
Cook did seem to do best in GS spotting up in the corner. |
After last night, seems to be spot on..and perhaps Cook is one of the Lakers best shooters whether off screens, dribble pulls, or spot up |
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Baron Von Humongous Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jul 2015 Posts: 32979
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Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 6:34 am Post subject: |
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AllorNothing wrote: | Luminous8 wrote: | Mike@LG wrote: | audioaxes wrote: | pjiddy wrote: | This thread really underscores what a piss poor understanding Rob has of "shooting" (or basketball in general). And two of the guys he signed (Cook and Daniels) are basically unplayable because of their defense. The rest of the "shooters" have duplicative skills and/or are being used the wrong way. He's also counting Rondo's zero gravity 35% shooting and Bradley's 2015 numbers as "better shooting."
Not good! |
this is something that has me so frustrated about or coaching and FO. They should be smart enough to realize that Rondo's 35ish% shooting on wide open "I dare you to shoot" 3s is actually piss poor and in the meantime his defender is able to help off on others making it harder for Lebron and AD to operate
a good 3 point shooter is going to force teams to space out the paint more and still end up shooting 40% on high volume 3s |
You know those 3 on 3 tournaments where every team has a token shooter or two?
This team feels like that, but it's 5 on 5. 2 franchise players, 3 shooters. Spot up guys too, not motion guys. |
Daniels can come off screens |
Is Kuzma a poor motion guy? |
He looks great at it. The results, though...? _________________ Under New Management |
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Luminous8 Star Player
Joined: 26 Apr 2017 Posts: 2192
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Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:03 am Post subject: |
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Baron Von Humongous wrote: | AllorNothing wrote: | Luminous8 wrote: | Mike@LG wrote: | audioaxes wrote: | pjiddy wrote: | This thread really underscores what a piss poor understanding Rob has of "shooting" (or basketball in general). And two of the guys he signed (Cook and Daniels) are basically unplayable because of their defense. The rest of the "shooters" have duplicative skills and/or are being used the wrong way. He's also counting Rondo's zero gravity 35% shooting and Bradley's 2015 numbers as "better shooting."
Not good! |
this is something that has me so frustrated about or coaching and FO. They should be smart enough to realize that Rondo's 35ish% shooting on wide open "I dare you to shoot" 3s is actually piss poor and in the meantime his defender is able to help off on others making it harder for Lebron and AD to operate
a good 3 point shooter is going to force teams to space out the paint more and still end up shooting 40% on high volume 3s |
You know those 3 on 3 tournaments where every team has a token shooter or two?
This team feels like that, but it's 5 on 5. 2 franchise players, 3 shooters. Spot up guys too, not motion guys. |
Daniels can come off screens |
Is Kuzma a poor motion guy? |
He looks great at it. The results, though...? |
Exactly |
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Dr. Funkbot Star Player
Joined: 24 Sep 2001 Posts: 8188 Location: Eagle Rock
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Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:16 am Post subject: |
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lar9149 wrote: | venturalakersfan wrote: | Mike@LG wrote: | Hate to tell you this but they're almost all spot up guys.
Green and KCP are maybe average at running off screens.
Dribble pull ups, I think it's Green and Cook. |
Cook did seem to do best in GS spotting up in the corner. |
After last night, seems to be spot on..and perhaps Cook is one of the Lakers best shooters whether off screens, dribble pulls, or spot up |
That release is fast- dare I say Lou Williams like? _________________ R.I.P. Doc Buss |
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LakersRGolden Star Player
Joined: 13 Jan 2002 Posts: 7910 Location: Lake Forest
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Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:22 am Post subject: |
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Crazy that the Laker's goto play when LeBron is off the floor is a wing shooting an 18 foot 2 pointer off a screen. |
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LakerDynasty6.0 Star Player
Joined: 12 Jan 2009 Posts: 4652
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Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:52 am Post subject: |
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wolfpaclaker wrote: | Spot up shooting is what you need when you have AD, Lebron.
If you are asking AD to set screens to open up a shooter on the move, that shooter better be Klay level.
I certainly wouldn't want him setting screens to free up a role player. The role player is there to make ADs job easier, not vice-versa.
The game plan is simple on offense. Start 5 out. Lebron runs point. AD or one of the Cs (McGee/Howard) set a screen. 2 spot up shooters at all times ready to snipe. If AD sets the screen, Howard/McGee look to cut to the basket and get a dunk (we saw this play yesterday). If teams double or help on a Lebron drive, then a set spot shooter is open. If they help on AD, same thing.
We're not running Trail Blazer, Warrior offense or have that kind of talent. Our talent is Lebron, AD and our elite size/power in the paint. Those are our strengths. Spot up and 3 point shooting is to keep defenses honest, and to make defenses pay for trying to help on our talent/strengths. The spot up shooting is there to compliment the core of the team's talent. It's not the core. Shooting from outside is the core of the Warriors and Blazers offense.
You can win without playing that way, because the Raptors did so. We're even more balanced than the Raptors. I think this Lakers team has the most floor balance you've seen on a team in a long time. |
Mike Drop! _________________ Starting Lakers Dynasty6.0! NOW!!
------
....." each year in Lakerland is marked by four seasons: Kobe’s Mad at His Teammates; Kobe’s Shooting Too Much; Kobe Leads the Victory Parade; Kobe Receives His Championship Ring." |
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Mike@LG Moderator
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:11 am Post subject: |
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wolfpaclaker wrote: | Spot up shooting is what you need when you have AD, Lebron.
If you are asking AD to set screens to open up a shooter on the move, that shooter better be Klay level.
I certainly wouldn't want him setting screens to free up a role player. The role player is there to make ADs job easier, not vice-versa.
The game plan is simple on offense. Start 5 out. Lebron runs point. AD or one of the Cs (McGee/Howard) set a screen. 2 spot up shooters at all times ready to snipe. If AD sets the screen, Howard/McGee look to cut to the basket and get a dunk (we saw this play yesterday). If teams double or help on a Lebron drive, then a set spot shooter is open. If they help on AD, same thing.
We're not running Trail Blazer, Warrior offense or have that kind of talent. Our talent is Lebron, AD and our elite size/power in the paint. Those are our strengths. Spot up and 3 point shooting is to keep defenses honest, and to make defenses pay for trying to help on our talent/strengths. The spot up shooting is there to compliment the core of the team's talent. It's not the core. Shooting from outside is the core of the Warriors and Blazers offense.
You can win without playing that way, because the Raptors did so. We're even more balanced than the Raptors. I think this Lakers team has the most floor balance you've seen on a team in a long time. |
I disagree, that it's the only thing.
Role players help championship teams win on the margins. As well as the 2001 Laker team was with Kobe and Shaq, it was roughly 4 other guys on the team getting wide open and shooting 45%-75% behind the arc, to the point of calling Derek Fisher, Derek Bird.
AD and LeBron don't play all 48 minutes. We're pretty lucky if they even play 30 minutes together at the same time after we stagger lineups.
Frankly, adding some offensive creativity and taking some scoring/playmaking responsibility off of AD's and LeBron's for a few possessions a game, gets them walking pace rest while they're still on the floor.
So yes, I do want that occasional screen from AD to open up role playing spot up shooters, especially when that's their best skill.
But hell, I'd also want another point guard outside of LeBron James to initiate the pick and roll, have LeBron be the screener/shot roll guy, and AD be the option finisher in the dunker spot.
Kuzma, isn't a wealth of proficiency at that.
Siakam Pascal relieved Kawhi and Lowry with his transition abilities. VanVleet was fire behind the arc as the secondary playmaker and spot up guy.
LAL desperately needs a wing version of VanVleet. That's where Iguodala comes in. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans. |
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Baron Von Humongous Retired Number
Joined: 02 Jul 2015 Posts: 32979
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Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:15 am Post subject: |
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Mike@LG wrote: | wolfpaclaker wrote: | Spot up shooting is what you need when you have AD, Lebron.
If you are asking AD to set screens to open up a shooter on the move, that shooter better be Klay level.
I certainly wouldn't want him setting screens to free up a role player. The role player is there to make ADs job easier, not vice-versa.
The game plan is simple on offense. Start 5 out. Lebron runs point. AD or one of the Cs (McGee/Howard) set a screen. 2 spot up shooters at all times ready to snipe. If AD sets the screen, Howard/McGee look to cut to the basket and get a dunk (we saw this play yesterday). If teams double or help on a Lebron drive, then a set spot shooter is open. If they help on AD, same thing.
We're not running Trail Blazer, Warrior offense or have that kind of talent. Our talent is Lebron, AD and our elite size/power in the paint. Those are our strengths. Spot up and 3 point shooting is to keep defenses honest, and to make defenses pay for trying to help on our talent/strengths. The spot up shooting is there to compliment the core of the team's talent. It's not the core. Shooting from outside is the core of the Warriors and Blazers offense.
You can win without playing that way, because the Raptors did so. We're even more balanced than the Raptors. I think this Lakers team has the most floor balance you've seen on a team in a long time. |
I disagree, that it's the only thing.
Role players help championship teams win on the margins. As well as the 2001 Laker team was with Kobe and Shaq, it was roughly 4 other guys on the team getting wide open and shooting 45%-75% behind the arc, to the point of calling Derek Fisher, Derek Bird.
AD and LeBron don't play all 48 minutes. We're pretty lucky if they even play 30 minutes together at the same time after we stagger lineups.
Frankly, adding some offensive creativity and taking some scoring/playmaking responsibility off of AD's and LeBron's for a few possessions a game, gets them walking pace rest while they're still on the floor.
So yes, I do want that occasional screen from AD to open up role playing spot up shooters, especially when that's their best skill.
But hell, I'd also want another point guard outside of LeBron James to initiate the pick and roll, have LeBron be the screener/shot roll guy, and AD be the option finisher in the dunker spot.
Kuzma, isn't a wealth of proficiency at that. |
The other thing is that Vogel may not have gotten the message yet that Bradley and Green are much better standstill shooters because they've been used as motion shooters more than they should be so far this preseason (no data, just eye test). But it is just preseason and Vogel could be experimenting. _________________ Under New Management |
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Mike@LG Moderator
Joined: 10 Apr 2001 Posts: 65135 Location: Orange County, CA
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Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:18 am Post subject: |
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^We finally saw some of that last night.
But admittedly, one of my gripes about this team is that it absolutely has to play 1 specific way without much creativity/improvisation from the playbook because that doesn't cater to the current roster's skill set. _________________ Resident Car Nut.
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans. |
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SuperboyReformed Star Player
Joined: 07 Oct 2012 Posts: 4083
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Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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the things being said here, some of them make me feel like there is fundamentally poor understanding of how shooting works or how basketball players play. (i.e. i think some of you have not much experience playing and have ideas based on what you see on tv, video games, or stats).
motion shooting vs. spotup shooting
any kind of motion shooting is going to be more difficult for anyone vs spotup shooting. if someone is a better shooter, he will be a better shooter in both cases. there is not really a case where you are a better motion shooting but not better at spotup shooting lol.
and still so much complaining about our shooters. our shooters are FINE. are they the best, as in curry klay? NO! are they good enough to win rings? YES!
MikeLG said something that most people do not seem to understand:
Quote: | But hell, I'd also want another point guard outside of LeBron James to initiate the pick and roll, have LeBron be the screener/shot roll guy, and AD be the option finisher in the dunker spot. |
I ABSOLUTELY would not want lebron playing much point this year. And by point, this is what i mean....do NOT bring the ball up from half court and be the person making that first pass or decision. have it be anyone else. ANYONE ELSE. why? lebron is bad at it. and more importantly, what is he GOOD at? he is HUGE and STRONG, and supposed to be a great decision maker (which he is not, but good enough). put him at the elbow, use his great size and willingness to find the open man, and do that. stay around that elbow area and make those passes to the bigs or shooters. that is ALL he has to do. if he is wide open, go ahead take it or drive. dont worry about getting more than 20 or so points. if he can stomach doing this, we will be well on our way to a championship. we are so much bigger than other teams, this should be FULLy taken advantage of as long as we can.
our death lineup should be AD, McG, Dwight, LBJ, and someone else.
we should be dunking and layupping a LOT. like really, a LOT. and we have already seen this, and it is the PRIMARY reason why vegas has us back at #1. we were #1 when we got AD, then kawhi/pg happened and we dropped to 5, then after 2 preseason games we were back to #1. why? they saw the DONKs.
the thing im worried about is lbj. im worried he wont allow a situation where he is not scoring 25+ ppg. and to do that, he is going to have to bring the ball up and do that whole thing which would be awful. we once had a very nice stretch of games with Bynum/Pau/Odom at one point where they were just twin towering everyone with plays around the key. it was beautiful, but it didnt last very long. we have that chance and more again. |
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Judah Star Player
Joined: 23 Jun 2015 Posts: 4759
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Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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Imagine thinking that a guy who's going to finish top 5 in assists is a bad decision-maker lol. _________________ “Christ did not die to forgive sinners who go on treasuring anything above seeing and savoring God. And people who would be happy in heaven if Christ were not there, will not be there."
- John Piper |
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