Lakers vs Nets games in China might get canceled (update: leaning towards letting Nets/Lakers play)
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maomao
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:13 am    Post subject:

Goldenwest wrote:
epak wrote:
Goldenwest wrote:
They make all our stuff and basically control our economy, a little late in the day to be complaining about the way they run their country. Guess the idea of exploiting cheap labor, getting cheaper stuff, and our corporations making huge profits was too good to pass up.


Actually I dont think it's that simple.
There's an intermingling of both countries for each others' own gain...

Oh no! I'm the 3rd maox2/calihog :O
Help!


That’s what the politicians like to say, ‘it’s not that simple’

Truth is, it is. Chinese middle class is growing, the trade deficit is hugely in their favor, and they are finding other countries to do business with. They can dump our bonds tomorrow and crash our economy. They would be hurt as well but not nearly as bad as we would.


I don’t think the trade deficit is hugely in their favor. Remember this only came out because Trump tweet about it. It’s always been like this for many year. It’s not in their favor because of two things that are not calculated because they are not true import/export.

1. For example, apple makes iPhones in china. Most of those money goes to apple, not the Chinese when we “import” the phones. To make matters worse, Apple sells iPhone to Chinese consumers at a much higher price than to US consumers.

So we have businesses that takes advantage of the cheap labors in China, and sells product there at a higher price at the same time.

2. American business doing business in China. Again, there is no import/export, only American business making money from the Chinese consumers. You know how many years had McDonald’s been in service in china? Starbucks? And many fast food chains, American brands.

There is no such Chinese business that does business here in the same capacity. Do you know any Chinese equivalent of Apple or McDonald’s? There are none. The whole trade deficit is a pure made up thing from the Trump administrations just to tell you that we are at war and losing money to the Chinese. But in reality, our business are making a killing over there, they just don’t factor into the import/export numbers
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:17 am    Post subject:

epak wrote:
seccom wrote:
Quote:
As an NBA fan living in the free world, I only expect the notable figures in the NBA to make a statement supporting Morey's right to free speech. That's it. Doesn't seem too difficult to me. There's no need to study Chinese history or understand the HK situation because they don't need to comment on that as it's not the main issue relating to the NBA .


This was from someone on RealGM which I totally agreed with.

For NBA, it is very simple. It is a question of free speech.

China is bullying the NBA to infringe on an US citizen's free speech right.


I mean, is anyone arguing against Morey's right to free speech?


I am, there is no free speech anywhere. It doens’t get you jailed but it costs money. I already pointed out that NBA did take action against a certain speech/expression.
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epak
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:20 am    Post subject:

maomao wrote:
epak wrote:
seccom wrote:
Quote:
As an NBA fan living in the free world, I only expect the notable figures in the NBA to make a statement supporting Morey's right to free speech. That's it. Doesn't seem too difficult to me. There's no need to study Chinese history or understand the HK situation because they don't need to comment on that as it's not the main issue relating to the NBA .


This was from someone on RealGM which I totally agreed with.

For NBA, it is very simple. It is a question of free speech.

China is bullying the NBA to infringe on an US citizen's free speech right.


I mean, is anyone arguing against Morey's right to free speech?


I am, there is no free speech anywhere. It doens’t get you jailed but it costs money. I already pointed out that NBA did take action against a certain speech/expression.


I think this page has some decent info on what freedom of speech rights entail: https://www.uscourts.gov/about-federal-courts/educational-resources/about-educational-outreach/activity-resources/what-does

I love #1 where FoS also means, freedom to not speak.

I think where you and I differ is that I believe FoS also allows for consequences. Your definition of FoS seems to mean there should be no consequences (i.e. loss of money)? It comes down to the government not being able to abridge said FoS.


Last edited by epak on Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:23 am; edited 1 time in total
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cal1piggy
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:21 am    Post subject:

maomao wrote:
Goldenwest wrote:
epak wrote:
Goldenwest wrote:
They make all our stuff and basically control our economy, a little late in the day to be complaining about the way they run their country. Guess the idea of exploiting cheap labor, getting cheaper stuff, and our corporations making huge profits was too good to pass up.


Actually I dont think it's that simple.
There's an intermingling of both countries for each others' own gain...

Oh no! I'm the 3rd maox2/calihog :O
Help!


That’s what the politicians like to say, ‘it’s not that simple’

Truth is, it is. Chinese middle class is growing, the trade deficit is hugely in their favor, and they are finding other countries to do business with. They can dump our bonds tomorrow and crash our economy. They would be hurt as well but not nearly as bad as we would.


I don’t think the trade deficit is hugely in their favor. Remember this only came out because Trump tweet about it. It’s always been like this for many year. It’s not in their favor because of two things that are not calculated because they are not true import/export.

1. For example, apple makes iPhones in china. Most of those money goes to apple, not the Chinese when we “import” the phones. To make matters worse, Apple sells iPhone to Chinese consumers at a much higher price than to US consumers.

So we have businesses that takes advantage of the cheap labors in China, and sells product there at a higher price at the same time.

2. American business doing business in China. Again, there is no import/export, only American business making money from the Chinese consumers. You know how many years had McDonald’s been in service in china? Starbucks? And many fast food chains, American brands.

There is no such Chinese business that does business here in the same capacity. Do you know any Chinese equivalent of Apple or McDonald’s? There are none. The whole trade deficit is a pure made up thing from the Trump administrations just to tell you that we are at war and losing money to the Chinese. But in reality, our business are making a killing over there, they just don’t factor into the import/export numbers



that is right. the money is made but not repatriated as the funds sit in tax haven countries. so before 2017, us does not see that money at all.

after 2017, things are complicated and i am still trying to understand the foreign subsidiary rules for the parent company tax return...


Last edited by cal1piggy on Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:25 am; edited 1 time in total
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maomao
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:23 am    Post subject:

epak wrote:
maomao wrote:
epak wrote:
seccom wrote:
Quote:
As an NBA fan living in the free world, I only expect the notable figures in the NBA to make a statement supporting Morey's right to free speech. That's it. Doesn't seem too difficult to me. There's no need to study Chinese history or understand the HK situation because they don't need to comment on that as it's not the main issue relating to the NBA .


This was from someone on RealGM which I totally agreed with.

For NBA, it is very simple. It is a question of free speech.

China is bullying the NBA to infringe on an US citizen's free speech right.


I mean, is anyone arguing against Morey's right to free speech?


I am, there is no free speech anywhere. It doens’t get you jailed but it costs money. I already pointed out that NBA did take action against a certain speech/expression.


I think this page has some decent info on what freedom of speech rights entail: https://www.uscourts.gov/about-federal-courts/educational-resources/about-educational-outreach/activity-resources/what-does

I love #1 where FoS also means, freedom to not speak.

I think where you and I differ is that I believe FoS also allows for consequences. Your definition of FoS seems to mean there should be no consequences (i.e. loss of money)?


We are in agreement then as I said free speech costs money. I have problem with people saying that Morey shouldn’t have to face any consequences of his tweet.
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maomao
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:26 am    Post subject:

cal1piggy wrote:
maomao wrote:
Goldenwest wrote:
epak wrote:
Goldenwest wrote:
They make all our stuff and basically control our economy, a little late in the day to be complaining about the way they run their country. Guess the idea of exploiting cheap labor, getting cheaper stuff, and our corporations making huge profits was too good to pass up.


Actually I dont think it's that simple.
There's an intermingling of both countries for each others' own gain...

Oh no! I'm the 3rd maox2/calihog :O
Help!


That’s what the politicians like to say, ‘it’s not that simple’

Truth is, it is. Chinese middle class is growing, the trade deficit is hugely in their favor, and they are finding other countries to do business with. They can dump our bonds tomorrow and crash our economy. They would be hurt as well but not nearly as bad as we would.


I don’t think the trade deficit is hugely in their favor. Remember this only came out because Trump tweet about it. It’s always been like this for many year. It’s not in their favor because of two things that are not calculated because they are not true import/export.

1. For example, apple makes iPhones in china. Most of those money goes to apple, not the Chinese when we “import” the phones. To make matters worse, Apple sells iPhone to Chinese consumers at a much higher price than to US consumers.

So we have businesses that takes advantage of the cheap labors in China, and sells product there at a higher price at the same time.

2. American business doing business in China. Again, there is no import/export, only American business making money from the Chinese consumers. You know how many years had McDonald’s been in service in china? Starbucks? And many fast food chains, American brands.

There is no such Chinese business that does business here in the same capacity. Do you know any Chinese equivalent of Apple or McDonald’s? There are none. The whole trade deficit is a pure made up thing from the Trump administrations just to tell you that we are at war and losing money to the Chinese. But in reality, our business are making a killing over there, they just don’t factor into the import/export numbers



that is right. the money is made but not repatriated. so before 2017, us does not see that money at all.

after 2017, things are complicated and i am still trying to understand the foreign subsidiary rules for the parent company tax return...


It doesn’t really matter, all I’m saying is that there are many other things to consider when you hear the “Chinese is stealing our money” propaganda.
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cal1piggy
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:27 am    Post subject:

maomao wrote:
cal1piggy wrote:
maomao wrote:
Goldenwest wrote:
epak wrote:
Goldenwest wrote:
They make all our stuff and basically control our economy, a little late in the day to be complaining about the way they run their country. Guess the idea of exploiting cheap labor, getting cheaper stuff, and our corporations making huge profits was too good to pass up.


Actually I dont think it's that simple.
There's an intermingling of both countries for each others' own gain...

Oh no! I'm the 3rd maox2/calihog :O
Help!


That’s what the politicians like to say, ‘it’s not that simple’

Truth is, it is. Chinese middle class is growing, the trade deficit is hugely in their favor, and they are finding other countries to do business with. They can dump our bonds tomorrow and crash our economy. They would be hurt as well but not nearly as bad as we would.


I don’t think the trade deficit is hugely in their favor. Remember this only came out because Trump tweet about it. It’s always been like this for many year. It’s not in their favor because of two things that are not calculated because they are not true import/export.

1. For example, apple makes iPhones in china. Most of those money goes to apple, not the Chinese when we “import” the phones. To make matters worse, Apple sells iPhone to Chinese consumers at a much higher price than to US consumers.

So we have businesses that takes advantage of the cheap labors in China, and sells product there at a higher price at the same time.

2. American business doing business in China. Again, there is no import/export, only American business making money from the Chinese consumers. You know how many years had McDonald’s been in service in china? Starbucks? And many fast food chains, American brands.

There is no such Chinese business that does business here in the same capacity. Do you know any Chinese equivalent of Apple or McDonald’s? There are none. The whole trade deficit is a pure made up thing from the Trump administrations just to tell you that we are at war and losing money to the Chinese. But in reality, our business are making a killing over there, they just don’t factor into the import/export numbers



that is right. the money is made but not repatriated. so before 2017, us does not see that money at all.

after 2017, things are complicated and i am still trying to understand the foreign subsidiary rules for the parent company tax return...


It doesn’t really matter, all I’m saying is that there are many other things to consider when you hear the “Chinese is stealing our money” propaganda.


no i understand, but i like the way you put it. actually the trade deficit is not a trade deficit, but a tax collection deficit.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:34 am    Post subject:

Do people who get into heated discussions even know the HK history? Do the kids burning up their own place of living and businesses in HK even know how they were lent out to Britain in the first place? I didn't know. I had to do some research, and this is my summary. If there are historians who can shed even more pertinent info, It will be appreciated.

Basically China tried to stop Britain from flooding their country with opium. Essentially Britain, the drug dealers, got pissed that China didn't want it anymore, got pissed that China confiscated and destroyed their smuggled supplies and declared war. China lost and had to lease HK to Britain for 99 yrs as part of a peace treaty to repay the destroyed opium. HK citizens were colonized, discriminated against, and did not enjoy the same rights as British citizens who did business in HK. And the truth of the matter is that HK only experienced more autonomy under the handover. Britain essentially said, "Well if we can't govern her anymore, you can't either. So lets make sure they elect their own government." What's happening in HK right now is almost like a case of Stockholm syndrome on a country scale.

China may feel that they were bullied in the first place, just like they were bullied when Japan occupied them. I can see why they are never going to let HK go.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:42 am    Post subject:

Runway8 wrote:
Do people who get into heated discussions even know the HK history? Do the kids burning up their own place of living and businesses in HK even know how they were lent out to Britain in the first place? I didn't know. I had to do some research, and this is my summary. If there are historians who can shed even more pertinent info, It will be appreciated.

Basically China tried to stop Britain from flooding their country with opium. Essentially Britain, the drug dealers, got pissed that China didn't want it anymore, got pissed that China confiscated and destroyed their smuggled supplies and declared war. China lost and had to lease HK to Britain for 99 yrs as part of a peace treaty to repay the destroyed opium. HK citizens were colonized, discriminated against, and did not enjoy the same rights as British citizens who did business in HK. And the truth of the matter is that HK only experienced more autonomy under the handover. Britain essentially said, "Well if we can't govern her anymore, you can't either. So lets make sure they elect their own government." What's happening in HK right now is almost like a case of Stockholm syndrome on a country scale.

China may feel that they were bullied in the first place, just like they were bullied when Japan occupied them. I can see why they are never going to let HK go.


I don't think anybody is denying what Britain did to obtain Hong Kong was wrong in the first place.
The difference is that that Britain left China something that could potentially upend the Communist system when it was returned....their criminal justice and court system and rule of laws are vastly different which is why these people are protesting. They do not want to devolve into the Communist system which is even worst than what they are used to. That is one of the main points of why these people are protesting. The hope was that in 50 years between the handover that China would transition to a democratic government which turns out never happened...instead the USA and the west being friendly to China in business enriched the country and made them even more totalitarian than ever. Meanwhile those in Taiwan see what the CCP for what it really is and will never peacefully give up their rights and freedoms without a fight. The current rulers in Mainland China may all be ethnically the same as the people in HK and Taiwan, but the thought processes when it comes to politics are polar opposites. This is why they will never submit to the CCP.


Last edited by lakersken80 on Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:59 am; edited 3 times in total
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:43 am    Post subject:

Runway8 wrote:
Do people who get into heated discussions even know the HK history? Do the kids burning up their own place of living and businesses in HK even know how they were lent out to Britain in the first place? I didn't know. I had to do some research, and this is my summary. If there are historians who can shed even more pertinent info, It will be appreciated.

Basically China tried to stop Britain from flooding their country with opium. Essentially Britain, the drug dealers, got pissed that China didn't want it anymore, got pissed that China confiscated and destroyed their smuggled supplies and declared war. China lost and had to lease HK to Britain for 99 yrs as part of a peace treaty to repay the destroyed opium. HK citizens were colonized, discriminated against, and did not enjoy the same rights as British citizens who did business in HK. And the truth of the matter is that HK only experienced more autonomy under the handover. Britain essentially said, "Well if we can't govern her anymore, you can't either. So lets make sure they elect their own government." What's happening in HK right now is almost like a case of Stockholm syndrome on a country scale.

China may feel that they were bullied in the first place, just like they were bullied when Japan occupied them. I can see why they are never going to let HK go.


Thanks for the recap!
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maomao
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:47 am    Post subject:

Runway8 wrote:
Do people who get into heated discussions even know the HK history? Do the kids burning up their own place of living and businesses in HK even know how they were lent out to Britain in the first place? I didn't know. I had to do some research, and this is my summary. If there are historians who can shed even more pertinent info, It will be appreciated.

Basically China tried to stop Britain from flooding their country with opium. Essentially Britain, the drug dealers, got pissed that China didn't want it anymore, got pissed that China confiscated and destroyed their smuggled supplies and declared war. China lost and had to lease HK to Britain for 99 yrs as part of a peace treaty to repay the destroyed opium. HK citizens were colonized, discriminated against, and did not enjoy the same rights as British citizens who did business in HK. And the truth of the matter is that HK only experienced more autonomy under the handover. Britain essentially said, "Well if we can't govern her anymore, you can't either. So lets make sure they elect their own government." What's happening in HK right now is almost like a case of Stockholm syndrome on a country scale.

China may feel that they were bullied in the first place, just like they were bullied when Japan occupied them. I can see why they are never going to let HK go.


There is no need to understand any history to see why any nation not letting go of their territories. Did Spain let that region of theirs who called for independence go?

At this point, HK is no where near that. It's nothing but a child's play at this point. What happens in HK doesn't really affect anything else in China. The only value of HK is the stock market, which is still operates normally as usual and seem no affect.

HK people are free to suffer on their own. Don't expect any help from China when you don't pay any tax.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:00 am    Post subject:

lakersken80 wrote:

I don't think anybody is denying what Britain did to obtain Hong Kong was wrong in the first place.
The difference is that that Britain left China something that could potentially upend the Communist system when it was returned....their criminal justice and court system and rule of laws are vastly different which is why these people are protesting. They do not want to devolve into the Communist system which is even worst than what they are used to. That is one of the main points of why these people are protesting. The hope was that in 50 years between the handover that China would transition to a democratic government which turns out never happened...instead the USA and the west being friendly to China in business enriched the country and made them even more totalitarian than ever. Meanwhile those in Taiwan see what the CCP for what it really is and will never peacefully give up their rights and freedoms without a fight.


Well said. As for Taiwan, heard there was some support for 1C2S (1 Country 2 Systems), but after they saw what happened to Hong Kong, they changed their minds quickly.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:03 am    Post subject:

K2 wrote:
lakersken80 wrote:

I don't think anybody is denying what Britain did to obtain Hong Kong was wrong in the first place.
The difference is that that Britain left China something that could potentially upend the Communist system when it was returned....their criminal justice and court system and rule of laws are vastly different which is why these people are protesting. They do not want to devolve into the Communist system which is even worst than what they are used to. That is one of the main points of why these people are protesting. The hope was that in 50 years between the handover that China would transition to a democratic government which turns out never happened...instead the USA and the west being friendly to China in business enriched the country and made them even more totalitarian than ever. Meanwhile those in Taiwan see what the CCP for what it really is and will never peacefully give up their rights and freedoms without a fight.


Well said. As for Taiwan, heard there was some support for 1C2S (1 Country 2 Systems), but after they saw what happened to Hong Kong, they changed their minds quickly.


Well, to be honest, some of them even want 1 country 1 system now since they are witnessing the destruction of so call "democracy".

There are good and bad examples of everything. Macau is a good example, Hong Kong is a bad one unfortunately. It's not the system, it's the people.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:03 am    Post subject:

Quote:
NBA Calls Off News Conferences For Players In China As Controversy Lingers

After several days of controversy, the NBA will complete its exhibition series in China with Saturday's game between the Los Angeles Lakers and the Brooklyn Nets. But the league says basketball players, including two of the game's biggest stars in LeBron James and Kyrie Irving, will not address the media in news conferences after.

While no formal conferences will take place, a league source tells NPR that if the Lakers and Nets decide to hold their media gatherings independent of the NBA, they are welcome to do so — and that there would be no repercussions from the league. The source also says the league hasn't had any discussions about what the teams might decide.

Saturday's game will end a rocky week between the NBA and China, sparked by an NBA team executive's since-deleted tweet voicing support for pro-democracy protests in Hong Kong.


https://www.npr.org/2019/10/11/769279291/nba-calls-off-news-conferences-for-players-in-china-as-controversy-lingers
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:05 am    Post subject:

maomao wrote:
epak wrote:
maomao wrote:
epak wrote:
seccom wrote:
Quote:
As an NBA fan living in the free world, I only expect the notable figures in the NBA to make a statement supporting Morey's right to free speech. That's it. Doesn't seem too difficult to me. There's no need to study Chinese history or understand the HK situation because they don't need to comment on that as it's not the main issue relating to the NBA .


This was from someone on RealGM which I totally agreed with.

For NBA, it is very simple. It is a question of free speech.

China is bullying the NBA to infringe on an US citizen's free speech right.


I mean, is anyone arguing against Morey's right to free speech?


I am, there is no free speech anywhere. It doens’t get you jailed but it costs money. I already pointed out that NBA did take action against a certain speech/expression.


I think this page has some decent info on what freedom of speech rights entail: https://www.uscourts.gov/about-federal-courts/educational-resources/about-educational-outreach/activity-resources/what-does

I love #1 where FoS also means, freedom to not speak.

I think where you and I differ is that I believe FoS also allows for consequences. Your definition of FoS seems to mean there should be no consequences (i.e. loss of money)?


We are in agreement then as I said free speech costs money. I have problem with people saying that Morey shouldn’t have to face any consequences of his tweet.
Free speech costs some people money, but not the vast majority of Americans. This idea that "there is no free speech" is
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:06 am    Post subject:

maomao wrote:
K2 wrote:
lakersken80 wrote:

I don't think anybody is denying what Britain did to obtain Hong Kong was wrong in the first place.
The difference is that that Britain left China something that could potentially upend the Communist system when it was returned....their criminal justice and court system and rule of laws are vastly different which is why these people are protesting. They do not want to devolve into the Communist system which is even worst than what they are used to. That is one of the main points of why these people are protesting. The hope was that in 50 years between the handover that China would transition to a democratic government which turns out never happened...instead the USA and the west being friendly to China in business enriched the country and made them even more totalitarian than ever. Meanwhile those in Taiwan see what the CCP for what it really is and will never peacefully give up their rights and freedoms without a fight.


Well said. As for Taiwan, heard there was some support for 1C2S (1 Country 2 Systems), but after they saw what happened to Hong Kong, they changed their minds quickly.


Well, to be honest, some of them even want 1 country 1 system now since they are witnessing the destruction of so call "democracy".

There are good and bad examples of everything. Macau is a good example, Hong Kong is a bad one unfortunately. It's not the system, it's the people.


That's true, seems there is an even stronger voice in Taiwan for independence after seeing the chilling effects of Hong Kong and the plight of the involuntary organ donors of the Uyghurs.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:13 am    Post subject:

K2 wrote:
maomao wrote:
K2 wrote:
lakersken80 wrote:

I don't think anybody is denying what Britain did to obtain Hong Kong was wrong in the first place.
The difference is that that Britain left China something that could potentially upend the Communist system when it was returned....their criminal justice and court system and rule of laws are vastly different which is why these people are protesting. They do not want to devolve into the Communist system which is even worst than what they are used to. That is one of the main points of why these people are protesting. The hope was that in 50 years between the handover that China would transition to a democratic government which turns out never happened...instead the USA and the west being friendly to China in business enriched the country and made them even more totalitarian than ever. Meanwhile those in Taiwan see what the CCP for what it really is and will never peacefully give up their rights and freedoms without a fight.


Well said. As for Taiwan, heard there was some support for 1C2S (1 Country 2 Systems), but after they saw what happened to Hong Kong, they changed their minds quickly.


Well, to be honest, some of them even want 1 country 1 system now since they are witnessing the destruction of so call "democracy".

There are good and bad examples of everything. Macau is a good example, Hong Kong is a bad one unfortunately. It's not the system, it's the people.


That's true, seems there is an even stronger voice in Taiwan for independence after seeing the chilling effects of Hong Kong and the plight of the involuntary organ donors of the Uyghurs.


no, there is a stronger voice in Taiwan because it's near election time. Like the US, it's about half and half in Taiwan. Politicians are doing anything to get elected.

I'm going to say this, hong kong and Taiwan people spends a lot of time/money/energy on elections. It's politics over everything else during those times. That's why they had been falling behind economically when comparing to other Chinese cities.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:14 am    Post subject:

TooMuchMajicBuss wrote:
maomao wrote:
epak wrote:
maomao wrote:
epak wrote:
seccom wrote:
Quote:
As an NBA fan living in the free world, I only expect the notable figures in the NBA to make a statement supporting Morey's right to free speech. That's it. Doesn't seem too difficult to me. There's no need to study Chinese history or understand the HK situation because they don't need to comment on that as it's not the main issue relating to the NBA .


This was from someone on RealGM which I totally agreed with.

For NBA, it is very simple. It is a question of free speech.

China is bullying the NBA to infringe on an US citizen's free speech right.


I mean, is anyone arguing against Morey's right to free speech?


I am, there is no free speech anywhere. It doens’t get you jailed but it costs money. I already pointed out that NBA did take action against a certain speech/expression.


I think this page has some decent info on what freedom of speech rights entail: https://www.uscourts.gov/about-federal-courts/educational-resources/about-educational-outreach/activity-resources/what-does

I love #1 where FoS also means, freedom to not speak.

I think where you and I differ is that I believe FoS also allows for consequences. Your definition of FoS seems to mean there should be no consequences (i.e. loss of money)?


We are in agreement then as I said free speech costs money. I have problem with people saying that Morey shouldn’t have to face any consequences of his tweet.
Free speech costs some people money, but not the vast majority of Americans. This idea that "there is no free speech" is


Like I said, if you say "free" speech allows for consequences and are limited by laws. Then I give you "free" speech.
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lakersken80
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:15 am    Post subject:

I know those pesky rights and people power. Why waste time on that when we can worship at the alter of making $$$$ even if that means we might lose out on our dignity. There is nothing wrong with making money, but what I see some people reasoning is that the prospect of making money overrules bad deeds.
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Runway8
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:18 am    Post subject:

lakersken80 wrote:
Runway8 wrote:
Do people who get into heated discussions even know the HK history? Do the kids burning up their own place of living and businesses in HK even know how they were lent out to Britain in the first place? I didn't know. I had to do some research, and this is my summary. If there are historians who can shed even more pertinent info, It will be appreciated.

Basically China tried to stop Britain from flooding their country with opium. Essentially Britain, the drug dealers, got pissed that China didn't want it anymore, got pissed that China confiscated and destroyed their smuggled supplies and declared war. China lost and had to lease HK to Britain for 99 yrs as part of a peace treaty to repay the destroyed opium. HK citizens were colonized, discriminated against, and did not enjoy the same rights as British citizens who did business in HK. And the truth of the matter is that HK only experienced more autonomy under the handover. Britain essentially said, "Well if we can't govern her anymore, you can't either. So lets make sure they elect their own government." What's happening in HK right now is almost like a case of Stockholm syndrome on a country scale.

China may feel that they were bullied in the first place, just like they were bullied when Japan occupied them. I can see why they are never going to let HK go.


I don't think anybody is denying what Britain did to obtain Hong Kong was wrong in the first place.
The difference is that that Britain left China something that could potentially upend the Communist system when it was returned....their criminal justice and court system and rule of laws are vastly different which is why these people are protesting. They do not want to devolve into the Communist system which is even worst than what they are used to. That is one of the main points of why these people are protesting. The hope was that in 50 years between the handover that China would transition to a democratic government which turns out never happened...instead the USA and the west being friendly to China in business enriched the country and made them even more totalitarian than ever. Meanwhile those in Taiwan see what the CCP for what it really is and will never peacefully give up their rights and freedoms without a fight.


I see, thanks! But I think definition of democracy, totalitarian, dictatorship, etc. doesn't really matter. People want to charge George Bush with war crimes, the Clintons are evil, Donald Trump is the worst thing, etc. Decisions are made in our country the same way as other countries, with agendas, ulterior motives, currying favors, etc. I think it's the same every where, we just sugar coat it with the perception that our citizens have the power to change things. But it seems our citizens are never happy with the people in charge and are always bickering. So why is it we feel so confident in telling others to be like us?

In less than 250 yrs we've gone from owning slaves to telling countries and regions that have existed for thousands of yrs how to run their government or how to be moral. People don't wanna hear it. Personally, when it comes to these foreign matters, I think we should mind our business . Especially in the case of China, we've made our beds together. A little bit too late to be righteous here.
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maomao
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:18 am    Post subject:

lakersken80 wrote:
I know those pesky rights and people power. Why waste time on that when we can worship at the alter of making $$$$ even if that means we might lose out on our dignity.


There is an old Chinese saying of "never bend down over rice".

Unfortunately, that belief has been completely lost after centuries of western imperialistic influences. Remember, our founding fathers did not declare independence over dignity, it was money money money. que the song.....bling bling bling
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maomao
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:21 am    Post subject:

Runway8 wrote:
lakersken80 wrote:
Runway8 wrote:
Do people who get into heated discussions even know the HK history? Do the kids burning up their own place of living and businesses in HK even know how they were lent out to Britain in the first place? I didn't know. I had to do some research, and this is my summary. If there are historians who can shed even more pertinent info, It will be appreciated.

Basically China tried to stop Britain from flooding their country with opium. Essentially Britain, the drug dealers, got pissed that China didn't want it anymore, got pissed that China confiscated and destroyed their smuggled supplies and declared war. China lost and had to lease HK to Britain for 99 yrs as part of a peace treaty to repay the destroyed opium. HK citizens were colonized, discriminated against, and did not enjoy the same rights as British citizens who did business in HK. And the truth of the matter is that HK only experienced more autonomy under the handover. Britain essentially said, "Well if we can't govern her anymore, you can't either. So lets make sure they elect their own government." What's happening in HK right now is almost like a case of Stockholm syndrome on a country scale.

China may feel that they were bullied in the first place, just like they were bullied when Japan occupied them. I can see why they are never going to let HK go.


I don't think anybody is denying what Britain did to obtain Hong Kong was wrong in the first place.
The difference is that that Britain left China something that could potentially upend the Communist system when it was returned....their criminal justice and court system and rule of laws are vastly different which is why these people are protesting. They do not want to devolve into the Communist system which is even worst than what they are used to. That is one of the main points of why these people are protesting. The hope was that in 50 years between the handover that China would transition to a democratic government which turns out never happened...instead the USA and the west being friendly to China in business enriched the country and made them even more totalitarian than ever. Meanwhile those in Taiwan see what the CCP for what it really is and will never peacefully give up their rights and freedoms without a fight.


I see, thanks! But I think definition of democracy, totalitarian, dictatorship, etc. doesn't really matter. People want to charge George Bush with war crimes, the Clintons are evil, Donald Trump is the worst thing, etc. Decisions are made in our country the same way as other countries, with agendas, ulterior motives, currying favors, etc. I think it's the same every where, we just sugar coat it with the perception that our citizens have the power to change things. But it seems our citizens are never happy with the people in charge and are always bickering. So why is it we feel so confident in telling others to be like us?

In less than 250 yrs we've gone from owning slaves to telling countries and regions that have existed for thousands of yrs how to run their government or how to be moral. People don't wanna hear it. Personally, when it comes to these foreign matters, I think we should mind our business . Especially in the case of China, we've made our beds together. A little bit too late to be righteous here.


The Chinese owned slaves too, but I don't know if it's more immoral to slave the same or difference race.
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cal1piggy
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:21 am    Post subject:

lakersken80 wrote:
Runway8 wrote:
Do people who get into heated discussions even know the HK history? Do the kids burning up their own place of living and businesses in HK even know how they were lent out to Britain in the first place? I didn't know. I had to do some research, and this is my summary. If there are historians who can shed even more pertinent info, It will be appreciated.

Basically China tried to stop Britain from flooding their country with opium. Essentially Britain, the drug dealers, got pissed that China didn't want it anymore, got pissed that China confiscated and destroyed their smuggled supplies and declared war. China lost and had to lease HK to Britain for 99 yrs as part of a peace treaty to repay the destroyed opium. HK citizens were colonized, discriminated against, and did not enjoy the same rights as British citizens who did business in HK. And the truth of the matter is that HK only experienced more autonomy under the handover. Britain essentially said, "Well if we can't govern her anymore, you can't either. So lets make sure they elect their own government." What's happening in HK right now is almost like a case of Stockholm syndrome on a country scale.

China may feel that they were bullied in the first place, just like they were bullied when Japan occupied them. I can see why they are never going to let HK go.


I don't think anybody is denying what Britain did to obtain Hong Kong was wrong in the first place.
The difference is that that Britain left China something that could potentially upend the Communist system when it was returned....their criminal justice and court system and rule of laws are vastly different which is why these people are protesting. They do not want to devolve into the Communist system which is even worst than what they are used to. That is one of the main points of why these people are protesting. The hope was that in 50 years between the handover that China would transition to a democratic government which turns out never happened...instead the USA and the west being friendly to China in business enriched the country and made them even more totalitarian than ever. Meanwhile those in Taiwan see what the CCP for what it really is and will never peacefully give up their rights and freedoms without a fight. The current rulers in Mainland China may all be ethnically the same as the people in HK and Taiwan, but the thought processes when it comes to politics are polar opposites. This is why they will never submit to the CCP.


I tried to point out the pointlessness of 'submission' but lets not dwell on that before this devolves into another mess.

Here is a different way to look at it. You are seeing protests and it is arguable what % of the people are in that category. Reports I have read is in the tens of thousands. That means most of 7 million are not protesting or rioting at this point. Of course, most HK people want more freedom and more privileged, but are they willing to revolt. I would guess no. So lets assume 100,000 are willing to riot. That is less than 1.5% of the people.

My family and friends fall into the 98.5% of this estimate. Do they want to retain all their freedoms and rights? Of course. But they are also pragmatic and realistic. They know the Chinese government is going to take over 2049 if not sooner. Are they willing to fight for it? Absolutely no because life is too good. That is the point people should think about - the Hong Kong people having a pretty good arrangement, particularly given the China they belong to.

So what do people like my family and friends think and do? They are staying home staying away from the violence. Some of them even sympathize with the protesters, but simple logic tells them it is not going to work. They all know that the violence and the degree of rebellion is going to force the central government to clamp down hard. Do they like it? Of course not. But what can they do? The central government can squash Hong Kong in one day. There could be urban warfare, but the central government is not going to care.

So what does all these protests end up doing ? What did they end up achieving?
They achieved a negative result because they are going to end up with less rights because the central government is going to eliminate this threat. They are going to hunt these protesters and the rioters down systematically. So all the destruction and all the pain and all the loss gdp achieved nothing but loss of rights and privileges for the people in Hong Kong.

And this did not have to be. Those protesters should have stopped when the lady agreed to table that extradition law. Now, it is too late and things will never be the same again. So I tell my friends and family to spend more time in Macau when that happens. Thankfully most of them can afford to do that.
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lakersken80
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:22 am    Post subject:

maomao wrote:
lakersken80 wrote:
I know those pesky rights and people power. Why waste time on that when we can worship at the alter of making $$$$ even if that means we might lose out on our dignity.


There is an old Chinese saying of "never bend down over rice".

Unfortunately, that belief has been completely lost after centuries of western imperialistic influences. Remember, our founding fathers did not declare independence over dignity, it was money money money. que the song.....bling bling bling


I'm not sure which founding father you are referring to but in the USA, it was about liberty from tyranny.....you see the colonies were once ruled by a King, but the colonies decided to throw them out when they thought they could do a better job of governing.
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maomao
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:24 am    Post subject:

lakersken80 wrote:
maomao wrote:
lakersken80 wrote:
I know those pesky rights and people power. Why waste time on that when we can worship at the alter of making $$$$ even if that means we might lose out on our dignity.


There is an old Chinese saying of "never bend down over rice".

Unfortunately, that belief has been completely lost after centuries of western imperialistic influences. Remember, our founding fathers did not declare independence over dignity, it was money money money. que the song.....bling bling bling


I'm not sure which founding father you are referring to but in the USA, it was about liberty from tyranny.....you see the colonies were once ruled by a King, but the colonies decided to throw them out when they thought they could do a better job of governing.


Go check your history books. There would not be an independence in 1776 had there been no taxes collected by the British on the colonies.
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