Lakers vs Nets games in China might get canceled (update: leaning towards letting Nets/Lakers play)
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Baron Von Humongous
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:07 pm    Post subject:

Credit to the mods for allowing us to take this thread so far afield.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:08 pm    Post subject:

Luckily cooler heads prevailed and the game was played.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:08 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
realking24 wrote:
Once again when it really counts to standing up to oppression and to a country that currently oppressed their own people the NBA and players move on like nothing happened or blame Trump. When these actors or so called celebrities calls for action against oppression or want your vote or whatever the next cause is that actually makes them money “ambulance chasers causes” call for us to stand and fight for equality it absolutely should make you at least question motives, how much money they will make and how full of (bleep) most of them are because they all had a moment to speak up against Real inequality and flat out face plantted. If it hurts the pocket book then look the other way that’s what the true message is. Luckily I watch basketball for sport and don’t give two (bleep) of their personal life time except great health and success and I feel that about everyone else

I'm sympathetic to this take, but also...



Right on with the Guy that stood behind his (bleep)!!! Not trying to hate on China there is wonderful people everywhere just the stupid political BS and we have it to on both right and left and that’s the part I really can’t stand. But great example of who did it right
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:11 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
cal1piggy wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:

Open military conflict isn't the solution, but the DC foreign policy blob is very much gearing up for some future armed conflict with China even if it's limited in scope.


sure they need to justify the aircraft carriers, stealth planes, submarines etc.
i do not see any scenario in which there is a military conflict between the us and china unless the president literally goes insane

Limited scope military conflict spearheaded by the 7th Fleet in the Taiwan Straits, East Sea, or South China Sea? Not out of the question at all.

Also, broadly, since you referenced the dynamic between ascendant piwers and declining powers a few pages ago, what do you think the declining power will do to "justify the aircraft carriers, stealth planes, submarines, etc." at its disposal?


The US has shown numerous times they are willing to back up Taiwan by sailing the Navy nearby....now HK obviously is out of the question because of the overwhelming geographical advantage for China.
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maomao
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:14 pm    Post subject:

well this is gotten off topic, but whatever.

To those that worry about Chinese military actions. It's highly unlikely and probably never happen.

Btw, today is not "independence" day for Taiwan, war would have broke out had independence been declared. i think there will be military actions if and only if Taiwan declares independence, which they never will dare to. Things will likely cool down after next year's election.

As for Hong Kong, it's more like child's play than anything else. Why would the central government do anything when Hong Kong pays no money to the central government? Wouldn't they want Hong Kong to die so the investment money and skilled workers flow to the north where the personal and business incomes are taxed?

One interesting observation if you guys have been to the Chinese communities in socal like the san gabriel valley. Back in the 90s, the Chinese population there are mostly Hong konger and Taiwanese. Now a days it's mostly mainland Chinese
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drae
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:15 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:

I mean, it's not like China's neighbors and the US haven't also upgraded their military capabilities since then.


Be careful trying to get to China. One of the reasons everybody's so outraged about the South China sea China's been grabbing is, you know those man made islands they're building? Each one is basically like a stationary air craft carrier, allowing China to project force well away from the coast line and keeping foreign ships away.

It's becoming increasingly hard to get to China militarily. America might be able to do it, but they're pretty much the only country in the world who might try. They fly a bunch of SU35's, which are pretty darn good, they're building their 3rd aircraft carrier which is more than any other country outside of America, they're just getting scary strong.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:20 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Credit to the mods for allowing us to take this thread so far afield.


Agreed
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Baron Von Humongous
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:31 pm    Post subject:

drae wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:

I mean, it's not like China's neighbors and the US haven't also upgraded their military capabilities since then.


Be careful trying to get to China. One of the reasons everybody's so outraged about the South China sea China's been grabbing is, you know those man made islands they're building? Each one is basically like a stationary air craft carrier, allowing China to project force well away from the coast line and keeping foreign ships away.

It's becoming increasingly hard to get to China militarily. America might be able to do it, but they're pretty much the only country in the world who might try. They fly a bunch of SU35's, which are pretty darn good, they're building their 3rd aircraft carrier which is more than any other country outside of America, they're just getting scary strong.

No one who knows what's up doesn't not recognize what China's been doing in the South China Sea. I'm a politics guy, not a military guy, so I leave it to the war hawks and missile nuts to know best about the power projection capabilities of the US and Japan within the region.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:34 pm    Post subject:

maomao wrote:
well this is gotten off topic, but whatever.

To those that worry about Chinese military actions. It's highly unlikely and probably never happen.

Btw, today is not "independence" day for Taiwan, war would have broke out had independence been declared. i think there will be military actions if and only if Taiwan declares independence, which they never will dare to. Things will likely cool down after next year's election.

As for Hong Kong, it's more like child's play than anything else. Why would the central government do anything when Hong Kong pays no money to the central government? Wouldn't they want Hong Kong to die so the investment money and skilled workers flow to the north where the personal and business incomes are taxed?

One interesting observation if you guys have been to the Chinese communities in socal like the san gabriel valley. Back in the 90s, the Chinese population there are mostly Hong konger and Taiwanese. Now a days it's mostly mainland Chinese

A lot of mainland Chinese want to leave China?
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:38 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
maomao wrote:
well this is gotten off topic, but whatever.

To those that worry about Chinese military actions. It's highly unlikely and probably never happen.

Btw, today is not "independence" day for Taiwan, war would have broke out had independence been declared. i think there will be military actions if and only if Taiwan declares independence, which they never will dare to. Things will likely cool down after next year's election.

As for Hong Kong, it's more like child's play than anything else. Why would the central government do anything when Hong Kong pays no money to the central government? Wouldn't they want Hong Kong to die so the investment money and skilled workers flow to the north where the personal and business incomes are taxed?

One interesting observation if you guys have been to the Chinese communities in socal like the san gabriel valley. Back in the 90s, the Chinese population there are mostly Hong konger and Taiwanese. Now a days it's mostly mainland Chinese

A lot of mainland Chinese want to leave China?


more like a lot of mainland Chinese having the option of visiting/working/living in the US.
Wanting to get to the US doesn't get you here, it's even tougher with Trump now.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:37 pm    Post subject:

maomao wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
maomao wrote:
well this is gotten off topic, but whatever.

To those that worry about Chinese military actions. It's highly unlikely and probably never happen.

Btw, today is not "independence" day for Taiwan, war would have broke out had independence been declared. i think there will be military actions if and only if Taiwan declares independence, which they never will dare to. Things will likely cool down after next year's election.

As for Hong Kong, it's more like child's play than anything else. Why would the central government do anything when Hong Kong pays no money to the central government? Wouldn't they want Hong Kong to die so the investment money and skilled workers flow to the north where the personal and business incomes are taxed?

One interesting observation if you guys have been to the Chinese communities in socal like the san gabriel valley. Back in the 90s, the Chinese population there are mostly Hong konger and Taiwanese. Now a days it's mostly mainland Chinese

A lot of mainland Chinese want to leave China?


more like a lot of mainland Chinese having the option of visiting/working/living in the US.
Wanting to get to the US doesn't get you here, it's even tougher with Trump now.

Probably want to move some money and land ownership just in case the government takes their money.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:40 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
cal1piggy wrote:
K2 wrote:
^At least they are allowing the sale of F-16Vs to Taiwan


if they were serious, they would sell f35s.
but that would be insane and cause a massive crisis.

china is starting to field their own stealth fighters and bombers, even if the good engines are not ready.

The F35s continue to suck which is why they're not selling them to Taiwan.


that may be true, but if the us was serious, it would be selling f35s.
a f16 has essentially no chance against a stealth fighter.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:43 pm    Post subject:

lakersken80 wrote:
cal1piggy wrote:
lakersken80 wrote:
cal1piggy wrote:
lakersken80 wrote:
cal1piggy wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
cal1piggy wrote:


exactly there is no solution.
if china wants to take taiwan, there is no reasonable way to stop them.
like i said earlier, there are better reasons why china does not grab it besides military power, particularly preserving those state-of-the-art semiconductor factories better than anything in china currently.

Open military conflict isn't the solution, but the DC foreign policy blob is very much gearing up for some future armed conflict with China even if it's limited in scope.


sure they need to justify the aircraft carriers, stealth planes, submarines etc.
i do not see any scenario in which there is a military conflict between the us and china unless the president literally goes insane


It already happened in the Korean war.
Plus Taiwan is a huge disadvantage for China unlike Korea where they can just pour troops from the border without a strong navy.


oh please.
korean war had a china that was war torn and minimal military hardware.
now you are talking about a country fielding stealth aircraft.
even i know that you first take out the airports and achieve air superiority.
from there, you can essentially do whatever you want if you dont care about civilian casualties.


I don't need airports to deploy anti-aircraft missile systems.


how long will your precious SAMs last against stealth aircraft and combat uavs?

what is the benefit for the average taiwanese to fight a hopeless war?

it is not as if they are fighting nazi germany where they will all get gassed if they lose

what is the upside for the soldiers.


Defending their current way of life and political system.
China doesn't want to shed blood because if they fail that could be a huge destabilizing force for the Party. This is why they want to convince Taiwan to give up. What we are seeing is the opposite sentiment among Taiwanese citizens.


may be i am the type that surrenders to early.
taiwan's way of life is not that different than china's way of life.
my read of taiwan is relative economic stagnation.
not much fun.
again, the price i see in taiwan are those semiconductor factories that are 3 generations ahead of china.
so i would think they can get a really good deal if china made up its mind to take over.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:45 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
cal1piggy wrote:
lakersken80 wrote:
cal1piggy wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
cal1piggy wrote:
drae wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
cal1piggy wrote:
governator wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
drae wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
drae wrote:
3baller wrote:
Honestly, what the protesters are doing is quite commendable. They're willing to risk being fully integrated into communist China to prevent future encroachment by the CCP on their rights as stated and protected in their basic law. Liberty or death and all.


They're going to be fully integrated anyway, in the year 2047. They have some autonomy until that time. However China has been gradually stripping away that autonomy in a bid to ease the transition once 2047 hits (lessening financial reliance, bussing in mainland Chinese, news is in Mandarin now etc etc.) Some will say it's in violation of the agreement, but having a fully free society suddenly be reefed into China's political system would be a huge culture shock.

A showdown was always going to happen, it was only a matter of when. I just don't see HK winning it

We'll see where the world is at that time, but hopefully there are a number of nations around the globe willing to expedite accepting Hong Kong immigrants. Unfortunately Johnnie To will probably be dead by then.


Wealthy Hong Kong citizens are apparently already leaving for places like Singapore

Makes sense. Taiwan will no doubt be next.


No way, it’s Taiwan Independence Day by the way. Taiwan is a full fledge country with its military


yes, my friend is having a great time today.

taiwan may have a military, but imo it is largely irrelevant.
i am not a military expert, but i believe china could easily take out all their airports with medium range ballistic missiles in the first hour of a conflict.

i think there are much better reasons why they do not want to invade.
like international relations as well as desiring the state-of-the-art semiconductor factories to remain intact.

I'm both surprised and not surprised that Taiwan hasn't come up once during the Dem primary debates. I don't think there's even been a South China Sea question.

Stupid provincial-minded Americans.


I'd be very surprised if a credible Dem nominee does mention either of those things. Basically because if they mention them there'll be pressure to act on those tough words and I really doubt the Dems want anything to do with China right now.


exactly there is no solution.
if china wants to take taiwan, there is no reasonable way to stop them.
like i said earlier, there are better reasons why china does not grab it besides military power, particularly preserving those state-of-the-art semiconductor factories better than anything in china currently.

Open military conflict isn't the solution, but the DC foreign policy blob is very much gearing up for some future armed conflict with China even if it's limited in scope.


sure they need to justify the aircraft carriers, stealth planes, submarines etc.
i do not see any scenario in which there is a military conflict between the us and china unless the president literally goes insane


It already happened in the Korean war.
Plus Taiwan is a huge disadvantage for China unlike Korea where they can just pour troops from the border without a strong navy.


oh please.
korean war had a china that was war torn and minimal military hardware.
now you are talking about a country fielding stealth aircraft.
even i know that you first take out the airports and achieve air superiority.
from there, you can essentially do whatever you want if you dont care about civilian casualties.

I mean, it's not like China's neighbors and the US haven't also upgraded their military capabilities since then.


are you asking japan and korea to come to the aid of taiwan.
what is in it for them?
if your answer is to put the bully in check, my answer is it is hopeless.
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cal1piggy
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:46 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
Credit to the mods for allowing us to take this thread so far afield.


yes, absolutely. it has been a fun discussion.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:48 pm    Post subject:

The irony ... players can insult the US president but bow down to China. Money talks
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:49 pm    Post subject:

lakersken80 wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
cal1piggy wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:

Open military conflict isn't the solution, but the DC foreign policy blob is very much gearing up for some future armed conflict with China even if it's limited in scope.


sure they need to justify the aircraft carriers, stealth planes, submarines etc.
i do not see any scenario in which there is a military conflict between the us and china unless the president literally goes insane

Limited scope military conflict spearheaded by the 7th Fleet in the Taiwan Straits, East Sea, or South China Sea? Not out of the question at all.

Also, broadly, since you referenced the dynamic between ascendant piwers and declining powers a few pages ago, what do you think the declining power will do to "justify the aircraft carriers, stealth planes, submarines, etc." at its disposal?


The US has shown numerous times they are willing to back up Taiwan by sailing the Navy nearby....now HK obviously is out of the question because of the overwhelming geographical advantage for China.


hong kong is hopeless.
but the united states is going to run a logistics line across the pacific that is completely vulnerable to weaponry that china has been developing for years to take out those assets.

nevermind the fact that a war between the united states and china would be 1929 all over again.
i simply do not believe the us would actually come to war to protect taiwan, and i dont mean playing chicken by sailing some navy assets nearby.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:52 pm    Post subject:

maomao wrote:
well this is gotten off topic, but whatever.

To those that worry about Chinese military actions. It's highly unlikely and probably never happen.

Btw, today is not "independence" day for Taiwan, war would have broke out had independence been declared. i think there will be military actions if and only if Taiwan declares independence, which they never will dare to. Things will likely cool down after next year's election.

As for Hong Kong, it's more like child's play than anything else. Why would the central government do anything when Hong Kong pays no money to the central government? Wouldn't they want Hong Kong to die so the investment money and skilled workers flow to the north where the personal and business incomes are taxed?

One interesting observation if you guys have been to the Chinese communities in socal like the san gabriel valley. Back in the 90s, the Chinese population there are mostly Hong konger and Taiwanese. Now a days it's mostly mainland Chinese


i think a lot of mainland people have moved over here or at least bought houses here. our neighbor from shanghai got in trouble because she had all her relatives move 50k/each for her to buy her properties. now she cannot move money for 3 years as punishment
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:55 pm    Post subject:

cal1piggy wrote:

are you asking japan and korea to come to the aid of taiwan.
what is in it for them?
if your answer is to put the bully in check, my answer is it is hopeless.

Come on. You don't think South Korea and (especially) Japan won't see the Chinese sacking of Taiwan as the co ckatoo in the coal mine?

The U.S. and Japan mutually nullify Article 9 while the ROK and Japan rapidly nuclearize.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 10:59 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
drae wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:

I mean, it's not like China's neighbors and the US haven't also upgraded their military capabilities since then.


Be careful trying to get to China. One of the reasons everybody's so outraged about the South China sea China's been grabbing is, you know those man made islands they're building? Each one is basically like a stationary air craft carrier, allowing China to project force well away from the coast line and keeping foreign ships away.

It's becoming increasingly hard to get to China militarily. America might be able to do it, but they're pretty much the only country in the world who might try. They fly a bunch of SU35's, which are pretty darn good, they're building their 3rd aircraft carrier which is more than any other country outside of America, they're just getting scary strong.

No one who knows what's up doesn't not recognize what China's been doing in the South China Sea. I'm a politics guy, not a military guy, so I leave it to the war hawks and missile nuts to know best about the power projection capabilities of the US and Japan within the region.


what i have read about their military:

1. they focused on stealth aircraft, though they are having trouble with the engine turbine blades. however they are using older engines. not ideal, but their mission is simpler than a hypothetical war with the us. for example, they focused on the stealth performance of the aircraft from the head-on scenario. so looks like an interceptor mission for intercepting american aircraft attacking their homeland. in regards to the engine, again the chinese aircraft does not need the same range as american aircraft. that is because the aircraft carriers have to be parked far from the shore for improved safety.
2. very long range missiles for taking out carriers and aircraft such as early warning and logistics.

i just dont see any scenario where any reasonable outcome justifies the risks and costs with protecting taiwan.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:00 pm    Post subject:

cal1piggy wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
drae wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:

I mean, it's not like China's neighbors and the US haven't also upgraded their military capabilities since then.


Be careful trying to get to China. One of the reasons everybody's so outraged about the South China sea China's been grabbing is, you know those man made islands they're building? Each one is basically like a stationary air craft carrier, allowing China to project force well away from the coast line and keeping foreign ships away.

It's becoming increasingly hard to get to China militarily. America might be able to do it, but they're pretty much the only country in the world who might try. They fly a bunch of SU35's, which are pretty darn good, they're building their 3rd aircraft carrier which is more than any other country outside of America, they're just getting scary strong.

No one who knows what's up doesn't not recognize what China's been doing in the South China Sea. I'm a politics guy, not a military guy, so I leave it to the war hawks and missile nuts to know best about the power projection capabilities of the US and Japan within the region.


what i have read about their military:

1. they focused on stealth aircraft, though they are having trouble with the engine turbine blades. however they are using older engines. not ideal, but their mission is simpler than a hypothetical war with the us. for example, they focused on the stealth performance of the aircraft from the head-on scenario. so looks like an interceptor mission for intercepting american aircraft attacking their homeland. in regards to the engine, again the chinese aircraft does not need the same range as american aircraft. that is because the aircraft carriers have to be parked far from the shore for improved safety.
2. very long range missiles for taking out carriers and aircraft such as early warning and logistics.

i just dont see any scenario where any reasonable outcome justifies the risks and costs with protecting taiwan.

No personal offense, but you don't seem to see where any reasonable outcome ever justifies anything other than unchallenged Chinese hegemony.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:01 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
cal1piggy wrote:

are you asking japan and korea to come to the aid of taiwan.
what is in it for them?
if your answer is to put the bully in check, my answer is it is hopeless.

Come on. You don't think South Korea and (especially) Japan won't see the Chinese sacking of Taiwan as the co ckatoo in the coal mine?

The U.S. and Japan mutually nullify Article 9 while the ROK and Japan rapidly nuclearize.


sure, rok and japan would nuclearize
but why come to aid of taiwan and fight a hopeless war.
makes no sense to me as it is all loss and risk and no upside.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:03 pm    Post subject:

cal1piggy wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
cal1piggy wrote:

are you asking japan and korea to come to the aid of taiwan.
what is in it for them?
if your answer is to put the bully in check, my answer is it is hopeless.

Come on. You don't think South Korea and (especially) Japan won't see the Chinese sacking of Taiwan as the co ckatoo in the coal mine?

The U.S. and Japan mutually nullify Article 9 while the ROK and Japan rapidly nuclearize.


sure, rok and japan would nuclearize
but why come to aid of taiwan and fight a hopeless war.
makes no sense to me as it is all loss and risk and no upside.

Because China won't stop with Taiwan.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:03 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
cal1piggy wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
drae wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:

I mean, it's not like China's neighbors and the US haven't also upgraded their military capabilities since then.


Be careful trying to get to China. One of the reasons everybody's so outraged about the South China sea China's been grabbing is, you know those man made islands they're building? Each one is basically like a stationary air craft carrier, allowing China to project force well away from the coast line and keeping foreign ships away.

It's becoming increasingly hard to get to China militarily. America might be able to do it, but they're pretty much the only country in the world who might try. They fly a bunch of SU35's, which are pretty darn good, they're building their 3rd aircraft carrier which is more than any other country outside of America, they're just getting scary strong.

No one who knows what's up doesn't not recognize what China's been doing in the South China Sea. I'm a politics guy, not a military guy, so I leave it to the war hawks and missile nuts to know best about the power projection capabilities of the US and Japan within the region.


what i have read about their military:

1. they focused on stealth aircraft, though they are having trouble with the engine turbine blades. however they are using older engines. not ideal, but their mission is simpler than a hypothetical war with the us. for example, they focused on the stealth performance of the aircraft from the head-on scenario. so looks like an interceptor mission for intercepting american aircraft attacking their homeland. in regards to the engine, again the chinese aircraft does not need the same range as american aircraft. that is because the aircraft carriers have to be parked far from the shore for improved safety.
2. very long range missiles for taking out carriers and aircraft such as early warning and logistics.

i just dont see any scenario where any reasonable outcome justifies the risks and costs with protecting taiwan.

No personal offense, but you don't seem to see where any reasonable outcome ever justifies anything other than unchallenged Chinese hegemony.


no offense taken, but that is what happens when a major economic power spends a lot on their military.
just like us taking over cuba in 1963.
push comes to shove, russia is not going to protect cuba.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:04 pm    Post subject:

Baron Von Humongous wrote:
cal1piggy wrote:
Baron Von Humongous wrote:
cal1piggy wrote:

are you asking japan and korea to come to the aid of taiwan.
what is in it for them?
if your answer is to put the bully in check, my answer is it is hopeless.

Come on. You don't think South Korea and (especially) Japan won't see the Chinese sacking of Taiwan as the co ckatoo in the coal mine?

The U.S. and Japan mutually nullify Article 9 while the ROK and Japan rapidly nuclearize.


sure, rok and japan would nuclearize
but why come to aid of taiwan and fight a hopeless war.
makes no sense to me as it is all loss and risk and no upside.

Because China won't stop with Taiwan.


that is why they nuclearize.
to be honest, i dont think nuclearize would make a difference either.
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