🏈OFFICIAL SUPER BOWL LIV THREAD🏈
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 31, 32, 33 ... 74, 75, 76  Next
 
Post new topic    LakersGround.net Forum Index -> Off Topic Reply to topic
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
LakerLanny
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 24 Oct 2001
Posts: 47565

PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 7:22 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:


And no. Rudolph was not the aggressor. So if you want to do a trail back to the instigation, it was Garrett's late hit and attempt to hold Rudolph down that precipitated everything.


Completely agree.

Here is video of the play



....for context, Cleveland is about to win at home by 14 points (there are 10 seconds left) and Myles Garrett decides to cheap shot Randolph for no reason.

Cleveland was taking cheap shots all game, there is talk this may be another near Bounty Gate type of situation.
_________________
Love, Laker Lanny
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
SocalDevin
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 26 May 2016
Posts: 7825
Location: Long Beach

PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 7:31 pm    Post subject:

Not even close to a cheap shot.. the ball barely left Rudolph's hand when he was hit.. and it wasn't a big hit either. The refs didn't throw a flag, nor did Rudolph's linemen react as if the hit was late.

Also the hit was a football action.. Rudolph initiated non-football action when he went for Myles's helmet.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
LongBeachPoly
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 16026

PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 7:38 pm    Post subject:

SocalDevin wrote:
Lets follow this line of reasoning that context is meaningless because nothing that occurred prior, justified Myles's actions.

1. No one is attempting to justify Myles's actions. It was clearly excessive.

2. Any action that could be construed as a football play had ceased while both men were on the turf. Once the football play was over Rudolph tried to take off Garrett's helmet. Let's be honest here. If he hadn't would he have gotten his ripped off? Would he have gotten hit in the head if he wasn't being aggressive? How would Myles have hit him in the head with his own helmet while backpedaling with two other large men restraining him, if he wasn't being pursued by Rudolph? The answer is simple.. Rudolph was the aggressor, and initiated all that took place. None if it happens if he doesn't try to take of Garrett's helmet, and he doesn't get hit if doesn't charge Garrett while he's being restrained by two men.

The argument isn't whether or not Myles actions were wrong.. it's who instigated the initial scrum, and who fueled it?


Lets follow this line of reasoning that context is meaningless because nothing that occurred prior, justified Ray Rice's actions.

1. No one is attempting to justify Ray Rice's actions. It was clearly excessive.

2. Any action that could be construed as an altercation had ceased while Ray Rice went to the other side of the elevator. Once the altercation was over Ray Rice's wife lunged at Ray Rice, who was at the other side of the elevator. Let's be honest here. If she hadn't would she have gotten knocked out? Would she have gotten hit in the head if she wasn't being aggressive?

How would Ray Rice have hit her in the head while being at the other side of the elevator if he wasn't being pursued by his wife? The answer is simple.. His wife was the aggressor, and initiated the final altercation.


The argument isn't whether or not Ray Rice's actions were wrong.. it's who instigated the last altercation, and who fueled it?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
SocalDevin
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 26 May 2016
Posts: 7825
Location: Long Beach

PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 7:41 pm    Post subject:

smh..
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
LongBeachPoly
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 16026

PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 7:45 pm    Post subject:

SocalDevin wrote:
LongBeachPoly wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
Beir32 wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
I'm not going to instigate a fight with someone then act like a victim when I come out on the losing end.

I'm also not going to charge a man with what could be used as a weapon in his hand and not expect him to use it. Especially when he's also being somewhat restrained by two other individuals of equal strength.

In short, Rudolph initiated the first action.. then instigated the second when he charged a man that was being restrained.

I know right? Who didn’t expect an NFL player to beat another man with his own helmet in the middle of the game?


He didn't beat him with it.. and lets not ignore context, even though it's helpful in pushing a particular narrative.

Rudolph was the aggressor initially, and in their second interaction. Period...

He doesn't try to rip Myles helmet off, his doesn't get his ripped off..

He doesn't charge Myles while he's being restrained, he doesn't get hit..

These are facts.. He's no victim.


Yup, if Ray Rice's wife doesn't lunge at him, she wouldn't have gotten knocked out either. Ray Rice already moved to the other side of the elevator.

These are the facts.


Poor analogy.. A woman pursuing a man in an aggressive manner, is entirely different from a football player doing the same.. Again the only way to mount a defense for Rudolph is to engage in hypotheticals and analogies in which you change or omit context.

Fact of the matter is a woman didn't initiate a non football play on Myles, a man did. Fact of the matter is a woman didn't charge Myles while he was backpedaling and being restrained, a man did.

Those are facts..


well, it's not an analogy.

It's using the same logic and applied to a different set of real facts.

An analogy is a hypothetical. This is not.

These are also real facts.

Unless you are saying that Ray Rice's wife was not the "aggressor" when she lunged at Ray Rice?

And unless you're saying it's not factual that had she not lunged at Ray Rice, she would have been knocked out anyways?

And if we are already not excusing Ray Rice and Myles Garrett's actions, what does it matter if it was on the football field or in an elevator?

Isn't the question about the victim?

1) Was the victim the aggressor? Yes.

You even acknowledge that: "A woman pursuing a man in an aggressive manner"

2) If not for the victim's actions, would the victim have been hit on the head?

Yes.

Ray Rice already moved to the other side of the elevator. He wasn't going to strike her any further.


Last edited by LongBeachPoly on Fri Nov 15, 2019 7:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
SocalDevin
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 26 May 2016
Posts: 7825
Location: Long Beach

PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 7:50 pm    Post subject:

Umm yea it is an analogy, Ray Rice's wife wasn't a party to the incident we are discussing, neither was Ray Rice.

You've remixed the facts to support your argument.

I suppose this would be okay if it were a good analogy..
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
LongBeachPoly
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 16026

PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 7:54 pm    Post subject:

SocalDevin wrote:
Umm yea it is an analogy, Ray Rice's wife wasn't a party to the incident we are discussing, neither was Ray Rice.

You've remixed the facts to support your argument.

I suppose this would be okay if it were a good analogy..



Whatever you want to call it. I'm trying to find out if your logic can be applied to other cases where victims were also the "aggressor"


Shouldn't we be allowed to look at all cases of victim's being the "aggressor"? Why does your logic only limit it to the football field?


1) Was Ray Rice's wife the aggressor?
2) Had she not lunged at him, would she have been knocked out?


Are these not the 2 questions your logic asked? What's so special about these 2 questions that they could only be asked in the context of the football field?


Again, this is not to excuse Ray Rice's actions which were inexcusable.
This is not to excuse Myles Garrett's actions which were inexcusable as you've said.

This is only to look at the victim's role in being the "aggressor" which you seem to feel is unfair. I don't understand why we can't look at Ray Rice's wife and her aggressive actions?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
SocalDevin
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 26 May 2016
Posts: 7825
Location: Long Beach

PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:08 pm    Post subject:

Because these are two entirely different circumstances..

What I'm gathering is you'd like to have a broader discussion about what actions are warranted against a perceived aggressive act. The answer varies, and should be determined by the unique circumstances of each individual case.

I'm sure you are aware of stand your ground laws.. in which an aggressor could actually get shot justifiably. Or on the flip side, how you could possibly be prosecuted for shooting a home intruder in the back. There is no one size fits all position that works for every individual case of perceived threat.

I understand the point you're making, I just don't believe it applies with this situation.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
LongBeachPoly
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 16026

PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:13 pm    Post subject:

SocalDevin wrote:
Because these are two entirely different circumstances..

What I'm gathering is you'd like to have a broader discussion about what actions are warranted against a perceived aggressive act. The answer varies, and should be determined by the unique circumstances of each individual case.

I'm sure you are aware of stand your ground laws.. in which an aggressor could actually get shot justifiably. Or on the flip side, how you could possibly be prosecuted for shooting a home intruder in the back. There is no one size fits all position that works for every individual case of perceived threat.

I understand the point you're making, I just don't believe it applies with this situation.


But, that's not my point.

My point is to ask the question.

Why can't we ask the same 2 questions?

Seems like you are not even allowing us to examine Ray Rice's wife's aggressive behavior.

Why can't we ask the same 2 questions that you asked of Mason Rudolph.

Is it wrong to ask questions though?

You asked 2 questions:

1) Was Mason Rudolph the aggressor?
2) If it wasn't for his actions, would he have been hit on the head?

Those are the 2 questions you asked of Mason Rudolph as the victim.

You're saying that these 2 questions are fair questions when examining a victim's role in an altercation.


But, you're not allowing these 2 questions to be asked in another situation. You're saying it doesn't apply. Or, it's a poor analogy. Or whatever.


But all I want to do is ask the same questions, whatever the answers are.

Why can't we ask the same questions to examine other victims? If these are valid questions when examining a victim's aggressive behavior in an altercation, then can't they be asked in other situations?

You brought up the stand your ground laws. Ok, couldn't we ask the same questions in the stand your ground context?


Why is it wrong to just ask the questions?

All I did was asked the same 2 questions you asked and you've become defensive about them.

Why does asking questions make you so defensive?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
SocalDevin
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 26 May 2016
Posts: 7825
Location: Long Beach

PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:24 pm    Post subject:

Nothing wrong with asking boss, I just think the logic is off. Given that the circumstances and parties are different. Those differences matter.

I don't believe a man should ever put his hands on a woman. If you're trying to defend yourself I'd still recommend you exercise a great deal of caution and restraint in doing so.

Most of us have had interactions with women in which they're a bit too aggressive physically, those of us with decency understand that you don't match that physicality. This is why I don't believe your analogy works for this particular incident.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
DaMuleRules
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 52624
Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.

PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:27 pm    Post subject:

SocalDevin wrote:

The argument isn't whether or not Myles actions were wrong.. it's who instigated the initial scrum, and who fueled it?


It's comical that you accuse others of pushing a particular narrative when you are clearly disingenuous when it comes to that very point.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames


Jason Isbell

Man, do those lyrics resonate right now
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
LongBeachPoly
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 16026

PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:28 pm    Post subject:

SocalDevin wrote:
Nothing wrong with asking boss, I just think the logic is off. Given that the circumstances and parties are different. Those differences matter.

I don't believe a man should ever put his hands on a woman. If you're trying to defend yourself I'd still recommend you exercise a great deal of caution and restraint in doing so.

Most of us have had interactions with women in which they're a bit too aggressive physically, those of us with decency understand that you don't match that physicality. This is why I don't believe your analogy works for this particular incident.


And you also said you don't defend Myles Garrett's actions.

So, the intent of your questions was not to defend the actions of the perpetrator, so that's a moot point. Unless you are now saying that by merely asking the questions, it can come off as trying to defend the actions of the perpetrator? Which is something you clearly stated is not the intention of the questions.

So if it's ok to ask the same questions of Ray Rice's wife, then the answers would be the same as Mason Rudolph.

1) Was she the aggressor in the final altercation? Yes
2) If not for her actions, would she have been knocked out? No
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
SocalDevin
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 26 May 2016
Posts: 7825
Location: Long Beach

PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:44 pm    Post subject:

With most altercations I think the parties involved can trace back to actions they took that escalated tension or hostility. Along the path that leads to whatever takes place tensions can be defused. Either party can initiate deescalation, or inhibit it. Her being the aggressor is irrelevant.

The reason why your analogy doesn't work is because you've changed the parties involved, and the circumstances. You don't fight women!! Period!!.. If Ray was in the elevator with a male companion of his and that male companion took aggressive action towards him, that changes the calculus right? This is why I'm having difficulty with your analogy the formula is off. It doesn't line up with the realities of what happened on the field.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
SocalDevin
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 26 May 2016
Posts: 7825
Location: Long Beach

PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:49 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:

The argument isn't whether or not Myles actions were wrong.. it's who instigated the initial scrum, and who fueled it?


It's comical that you accuse others of pushing a particular narrative when you are clearly disingenuous when it comes to that very point.


I argue on the level.. never am I disingenuous. What I find even more comical is pretending like you don't know what caused Myles to react the way he did.

Here's what we can't get around.. Rudolph went for Myles helmet first but was unsuccessful.. Rudolph charged Myles while he was being restrained and backpedaling. No way around these facts.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
LongBeachPoly
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 16026

PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:50 pm    Post subject:

SocalDevin wrote:
With most altercations I think the parties involved can trace back to actions they took that escalated tension or hostility. Along the path that leads to whatever takes place tensions can be defused. Either party can initiate deescalation, or inhibit it. Her being the aggressor is irrelevant.


Didn't you establish that Myles Garrett's actions were inexcusable as well? So, Mason Rudolph's actions were irrelevant in trying to figure out Garrett's punishment correct?

The only thing your question is trying to find out is:

1) Was she the aggressor?
2) If not for her actions, would she have been hit?

That's all we're trying to find out with your questions. And it seems, she wouldn't have been knocked out if she didn't lunge at Ray Rice.

SocalDevin wrote:

The reason why your analogy doesn't work is because you've changed the parties involved, and the circumstances. You don't fight women!! Period!!.. If Ray was in the elevator with a male companion of his and that male companion took aggressive action towards him, that changes the calculus right? This is why I'm having difficulty with your analogy the formula is off. It doesn't line up with the realities of what happened on the field.


Gotcha.

So I guess you don't believe in gay domestic violence between 2 male partners?

If Ray Rice was gay and he knocked out his gay husband, then we can ask your questions?

So basically, your questions only applies to males?

Or same sex? Maybe females on females?

Man, here's one.

What if Ronda Rousey got into an altercation with her husband? Who's the male, who's the female?


Last edited by LongBeachPoly on Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
SocalDevin
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 26 May 2016
Posts: 7825
Location: Long Beach

PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:54 pm    Post subject:

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
SocalDevin
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 26 May 2016
Posts: 7825
Location: Long Beach

PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:57 pm    Post subject:

You've misunderstood me..

Me saying that there's a difference between a man being drawn into a physical exchange with a woman shouldn't lead you to believe that I don't acknowledge domestic abuse among same sex couples. smh.. This exchange is veering off the rails boss.

I understand your position I don't agree with it.. we should probably leave it there.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
SocalDevin
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 26 May 2016
Posts: 7825
Location: Long Beach

PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 8:59 pm    Post subject:

Oh.. Ronda is all woman..
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
LongBeachPoly
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 16026

PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:02 pm    Post subject:

SocalDevin wrote:
You've misunderstood me..

Me saying that there's a difference between a man being drawn into a physical exchange with a woman shouldn't lead you to believe that I don't acknowledge domestic abuse among same sex couples. smh.. This exchange is veering off the rails boss.

I understand your position I don't agree with it.. we should probably leave it there.


I didn't give a position yet. All I did was ask the same questions you asked in another situation. That's it.

You seem to be against even asking the same questions.



And you did say there would be a difference between a man vs. woman domestic violence and a man vs. man domestic violence

One is absolutely no questions asked of the victim. And the other - you can ask questions of the victim.


SocalDevin wrote:
If Ray was in the elevator with a male companion of his and that male companion took aggressive action towards him, that changes the calculus right?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
DaMuleRules
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 52624
Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.

PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:11 pm    Post subject:

SocalDevin wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:

The argument isn't whether or not Myles actions were wrong.. it's who instigated the initial scrum, and who fueled it?


It's comical that you accuse others of pushing a particular narrative when you are clearly disingenuous when it comes to that very point.


I argue on the level.. never am I disingenuous. What I find even more comical is pretending like you don't know what caused Myles to react the way he did.

Here's what we can't get around.. Rudolph went for Myles helmet first but was unsuccessful.. Rudolph charged Myles while he was being restrained and backpedaling. No way around these facts.


Like I said, you're being disingenuous. You pretend that Rudolph's initial reaction came out of nowhere. As if he just randomly grabbed Garrett's helmet without provocation. That wasn't the case, as anyone can see and was pointed out as the incident unfolded on TV.

Look, if you want to try and sell that Rudolph was the instigator, you go ahead and have fun with that narrative. Just don't accuse others of having a one when yours is plainly evident.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames


Jason Isbell

Man, do those lyrics resonate right now
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
LongBeachPoly
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 16026

PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:14 pm    Post subject:

SocalDevin wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:

The argument isn't whether or not Myles actions were wrong.. it's who instigated the initial scrum, and who fueled it?


It's comical that you accuse others of pushing a particular narrative when you are clearly disingenuous when it comes to that very point.


I argue on the level.. never am I disingenuous. What I find even more comical is pretending like you don't know what caused Myles to react the way he did.

Here's what we can't get around.. Rudolph went for Myles helmet first but was unsuccessful.. Rudolph charged Myles while he was being restrained and backpedaling. No way around these facts.


Here's what we can't get around. Ray Rice's wife charged Ray Rice while Ray Rice was at the other side of the elevator. No way around these facts.


Last edited by LongBeachPoly on Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
SocalDevin
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 26 May 2016
Posts: 7825
Location: Long Beach

PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:14 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:

The argument isn't whether or not Myles actions were wrong.. it's who instigated the initial scrum, and who fueled it?


It's comical that you accuse others of pushing a particular narrative when you are clearly disingenuous when it comes to that very point.


I argue on the level.. never am I disingenuous. What I find even more comical is pretending like you don't know what caused Myles to react the way he did.

Here's what we can't get around.. Rudolph went for Myles helmet first but was unsuccessful.. Rudolph charged Myles while he was being restrained and backpedaling. No way around these facts.


Like I said, you're being disingenuous. You pretend that Rudolph's initial reaction came out of nowhere. As if he just randomly grabbed Garrett's helmet without provocation. That wasn't the case, as anyone can see and was pointed out as the incident unfolded on TV.

Look, if you want to try and sell that Rudolph was the instigator, you go ahead and have fun with that narrative. Just don't accuse others of having a one when yours is plainly evident.


I mean, so what if we both subscribe to different narratives. I'm just communicating that I believe yours to be wrong. No one is pretending anything.

We don't agree and guess what? That's okay..
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
DaMuleRules
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 52624
Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.

PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:23 pm    Post subject:

SocalDevin wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
SocalDevin wrote:

The argument isn't whether or not Myles actions were wrong.. it's who instigated the initial scrum, and who fueled it?


It's comical that you accuse others of pushing a particular narrative when you are clearly disingenuous when it comes to that very point.


I argue on the level.. never am I disingenuous. What I find even more comical is pretending like you don't know what caused Myles to react the way he did.

Here's what we can't get around.. Rudolph went for Myles helmet first but was unsuccessful.. Rudolph charged Myles while he was being restrained and backpedaling. No way around these facts.


Like I said, you're being disingenuous. You pretend that Rudolph's initial reaction came out of nowhere. As if he just randomly grabbed Garrett's helmet without provocation. That wasn't the case, as anyone can see and was pointed out as the incident unfolded on TV.

Look, if you want to try and sell that Rudolph was the instigator, you go ahead and have fun with that narrative. Just don't accuse others of having a one when yours is plainly evident.


I mean, so what if we both subscribe to different narratives. I'm just communicating that I believe yours to be wrong. No one is pretending anything.

We don't agree and guess what? That's okay..


I'm not going to repeat myself.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames


Jason Isbell

Man, do those lyrics resonate right now
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
SocalDevin
Star Player
Star Player


Joined: 26 May 2016
Posts: 7825
Location: Long Beach

PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:24 pm    Post subject:

Good..
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Aeneas Hunter
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 12 Jul 2005
Posts: 31763

PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 9:34 pm    Post subject:

Well, this sure got weird in a hurry.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    LakersGround.net Forum Index -> Off Topic All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 31, 32, 33 ... 74, 75, 76  Next
Page 32 of 76
Jump to:  

 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum






Graphics by uberzev
© 1995-2018 LakersGround.net. All Rights Reserved. Privacy Policy. Terms of Use.
LakersGround is an unofficial news source serving the fan community since 1995.
We are in no way associated with the Los Angeles Lakers or the National Basketball Association.


Powered by phpBB