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Judah
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Joined: 23 Jun 2015
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 Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Dreamshake wrote: | | RG73 wrote: | | Dreamshake wrote: |
Naw. Even McGrady could consistently get his team to the playoffs, and he had some crap teams too. Top 5 players aren't consistently missing the playoffs and losing the majority of their games. |
Lets see, first three seasons, with a prime Vince Carter, TMac managed 1 playoff appearance, where he was swept.
His first season in Orlando he did make the playoffs (again, 1st round out). The seed above him was the Toronto team he left, where Vince was carrying the corpses of Charles Oakley, Kevin Willlis, Del Curry, and Mugsy Bogues (I think they were all 36+ that season). The top seed in the east that year was the 76ers team that messed up our perfect playoff record. So the east was kind of a cakewalk. The following season he again got bounced in the 1st round in a conference where the best team was led by Jason Kidd and...Kerry Kittles? Come on. The next season he barely snuck into the playoffs at 42-40 and got bounced again. Then in 2003-04 he led the Magic to....21 wins. They replaced him the following season with a 19 year old Dwight and won 36. But yeah, first season with Yao, first round exit. Next season with Yao, no playoffs. Next season with Yao, first round exit. Next season with Yao, first round exit. Are you seeing a pattern yet? With crappy teammates in a crappy conference, he sometimes made the playoffs. In a good conference with another HOFer he got bounced in the 1st round when he made the playoffs. The moral of the story, once again, being that this is a team sport and sometimes one guy or even two can't do it alone.
So can we stop with the inane he couldn't get his team to the playoffs stupidity once and for all? Or shall I drag out all the examples of first ballot HOFers that failed to make the playoffs? |
I notice you haven’t refuted the fact that T-Mac was routinely getting to the playoffs. Even when he had garbage teams he got to the playoffs.
As far as the bolded, yes, please drag out examples of HOF players with 5 lotto trips in their first 7 seasons? For a bonus, please highlight the ones that could only clear 35 wins twice. |
His counterargument is that McGrady played in the East. Who's to say he would've still been able to pull it off in the West? If he barely sniffed the playoffs in a weaker conference, he almost certainly would have the same playoff "success" as AD. I'm sure AD would have similar success had he played in the East, if not better since he's a two-way player.
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epak
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| Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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The east sucks.
Anyway. Hope ADs thumb is ok. |
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Dreamshake
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Joined: 05 May 2006
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| Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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| J.C. Smith wrote: | | Dreamshake wrote: | | I notice you haven’t refuted the fact that T-Mac was routinely getting to the playoffs. Even when he had garbage teams he got to the playoffs. |
Not always. Most notably he missed the playoffs on a team that featured Yao Ming and Juwan Howard but only won 34 games.
I assume you are talking primarily about his Orlando teams when Grant Hill was constantly hurt and he was playing with a cast of role players. While he did squeek into the playoffs on most of those teams, squeeking into the first round of the playoffs in a weak Eastern Conference is hardly comparable to what we've seen in the Western Conference in recent years. |
I didn’t say he always made the playoffs. I said he routinely made the playoffs. And no one has ever considered him s top 5 guy.
Davis has routinely missed the playoffs. Davis has routinely failed to win 35 games. That’s not top 5 player impact. It doesn’t mean he’s not a great player, but not great on that level. If he were then teams led by him would not routinely lose games. And no, you can’t find many examples of historically great players that couldn’t routinely win games, make the playoffs, etc. |
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Dreamshake
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| Posted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Judah wrote: | | His counterargument is that McGrady played in the East. Who's to say he would've still been able to pull it off in the West? |
The Rockets routinely made the playoffs with T-Mac, in the West. Even the season where he only played 47 games, the team went 27-20 with him. Davis has failed to get past 35 wins in 5 of 7 years.
T-Mac was a playoff choker no doubt. But someone who can barely get there is top 5, or comparable to the all-time greats at his position?  |
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LandsbergerRules
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Location: The Other Perspective
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| Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 4:42 am Post subject: |
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Prime T-Mac was damn good plus he was a primary ballhandler and initiator for the Magic and Rockets. I do think he was more impactful in those years than AD has been so far. I must admit I have a bit of a bias for perimeter players over bigs, since they don't need to rely on other players as much to feed them in the spots where they are most effective.
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Judah
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| Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 5:03 am Post subject: |
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| Dreamshake wrote: | | Judah wrote: | | His counterargument is that McGrady played in the East. Who's to say he would've still been able to pull it off in the West? |
The Rockets routinely made the playoffs with T-Mac, in the West. Even the season where he only played 47 games, the team went 27-20 with him. Davis has failed to get past 35 wins in 5 of 7 years.
T-Mac was a playoff choker no doubt. But someone who can barely get there is top 5, or comparable to the all-time greats at his position? |
Doesn't the fact that they still made the playoffs despite him only playing in 47 games prove that T-Mac clearly had a better team than AD did? T-Mac was paired with a future HOF. The most talented teammate AD has ever had was Boogie and they never even played a full season together. Bringing up the 47 games T-Mac played in one year refuted your own argument.
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J.C. Smith
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| Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 6:26 am Post subject: |
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| Dreamshake wrote: | | And no one has ever considered him s top 5 guy. |
Not all time. He's not in the top 15. But at his peak he was certainly a top 5 player in the league. He put up ridiculous numbers in Orlando.
| Dreamshake wrote: | | Davis has routinely missed the playoffs. Davis has routinely failed to win 35 games. That’s not top 5 player impact. |
Anthony Davis entered the league at 19 joining a team that won 21 games. By 21 he was the centerpiece of a playoff team. They ran into the Warriors in the first round but he was spectacular, averaging 31.5 and 11 with 3 blocks in the playoffs.
The next year they missed the playoffs but injuries had a lot to do with that. Their top four players each missed between 16-37 games, Davis missed 21.
The following year, prior to acquiring Cousins at the All-Star Break (he only played 17 games), he didn't have a whole lot of help. Jrue averaged 15/7.3 in 67 games, but their next best players were Jordan Crawford, Omri Casspi, Terrence Jones, and Lance Stephenson. That team shouldn't have made the playoffs.
The next year they were back in the playoffs and made it to the second round before again running into the Warriors. Cousins blew his achilles mid-season and Davis carried that team. He excelled again in the playoffs averaging 30.1/13.4 to go along with 2.3 blocks and 2 steals.
Last year's team was a disappointment for sure. That was a team that had the talent to be a playoff team but they never got it together and the chemistry on that team was gone in the second half of the season with Davis sitting on the bench a lot, as well. To me that was the only season where his team had talent to make some noise (Mirotic, Randle, Jrue) but fell flat. The second half of that season was a mess leading into the all-star break with trade demands and not getting time, but they were a disappointment before then.
We'll find out soon enough what he can or can't do with contending talent. It's the first time he's had that. |
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Dreamshake
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| Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 7:09 am Post subject: |
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| Judah wrote: | | Dreamshake wrote: | | Judah wrote: | | His counterargument is that McGrady played in the East. Who's to say he would've still been able to pull it off in the West? |
The Rockets routinely made the playoffs with T-Mac, in the West. Even the season where he only played 47 games, the team went 27-20 with him. Davis has failed to get past 35 wins in 5 of 7 years.
T-Mac was a playoff choker no doubt. But someone who can barely get there is top 5, or comparable to the all-time greats at his position? |
Doesn't the fact that they still made the playoffs despite him only playing in 47 games prove that T-Mac clearly had a better team than AD did? T-Mac was paired with a future HOF. The most talented teammate AD has ever had was Boogie and they never even played a full season together. Bringing up the 47 games T-Mac played in one year refuted your own argument. |
The missed the playoffs that season. The team only won 7 more games without him. Granted, Yao did get injured too. Yao missed half of the next season as well. T-Mac still got them to 52 wins.
Bringing up the 47 games enhances my argument. He only played 47 games, yet in a little over half a season he still led his team to 27 wins. Davis has failed to lead his team to 35 wins in 5 of 7 years. How much help does one need to win 35 games? A top 5 player or historical great at his position shouldn't need a stacked team to win 35 games in most years. I'd love to see examples of top 5 players or the best amongst their positions historically that lost so much, on a consistent basis.
Last edited by Dreamshake on Mon Oct 14, 2019 7:12 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Dreamshake
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| Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 7:11 am Post subject: |
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| J.C. Smith wrote: |
We'll find out soon enough what he can or can't do with contending talent. It's the first time he's had that. |
I think we will find out that he can be great, as far as impacting team wins, when he doesn't have to be the primary player. 7 seasons of data very strongly supports that he is not that impactful, as far as impacting team wins, when he has to be the primary player. I think injuries have a lot to do with that (more of a wear on you when you have a bigger burden to carry). |
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Stumpy25
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| Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:10 am Post subject: |
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The biggest problem with AD it's his inability to stay healthy. He's a great player all around but he's one of those guys that every time you check he's injured. Never understood how certain players just seem to carry that curse around.
I just hope he's able to start opening day against the Clippers, which at this time seems questionable. |
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BlackStarMamba
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| Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 8:25 am Post subject: |
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AD would not be criticized so much if we didn't trade so much for him. Especially when he would have been a free agent in 2020. It was ridiculous
Sometimes patience is good.
Even Toronto didn't include Siakim and a lot of picks for Kawhi.
OKC didn't offer so much for PG when he was on the last year of his contract with Indy.
Lakers should have waited and pulled the trigger either Dec or Feb given how much Rich Paul scared other teams away and they were shutting Davis down anyways. We could have maybe only offered Ingram, Hart, KCP, #4 and a Future 1st around Dec or Feb of this coming season.
AD joining Ball, Kuz, Lebron, Danny Green mid season would be enough to push and still give hope for the future. We would have still had Wagner, Bonga (what whatever its worth).
Keep in mind its hard to win a championship in a 1st season together anyways with a different roster, coaching, etc. Raptors did it but they had Lowry, VanFleet, Siakiam, Ibaka, Powell, who had played 2 seasons + postseasons together.
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danzag
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| Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:35 am Post subject: |
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| Jesus Christ, how long does it take to do a MRI |
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PayasoLoco
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| Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:38 am Post subject: |
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| danzag wrote: | | Jesus Christ, how long does it take to do a MRI |
Not to long and if the radiologist is right there should be all done in less than an hour  |
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cal1piggy
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| Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:41 am Post subject: |
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| the worrisome thing about ad is that the play he likely hurt himself on did not look bad. it was not a fall but blocking a shot... |
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LakerSD
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| Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:10 am Post subject: |
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| danzag wrote: | | Jesus Christ, how long does it take to do a MRI |
It’s already done...just strategizing what to say publicly. |
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ocho
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| Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:49 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | MRI on right thumb of Anthony Davis returned clean today, league source tells ESPN. |
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LakerSD
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| Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:51 am Post subject: |
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Remember when Lebron’s MRI came back “clean”
Seriously though, let’s hope this time it’s actually true. We are (bleep) if it’s more serious than they are saying. |
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epak
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| Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:56 am Post subject: |
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Thank the Lord the MRI came out clean.
Still a grade 1 sprain. Hopefully he can use a wrap and wont miss any regular season games due to injury. |
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epak
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| Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:58 am Post subject: |
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| LakerSD wrote: | Remember when Lebron’s MRI came back “clean”
Seriously though, let’s hope this time it’s actually true. We are (bleep) if it’s more serious than they are saying. |
Clean can still mean tears...
| Quote: | Dr. Rajpal Brar, DPT @3cbPerformance
As expected, AD’s MRI returned clean (technically, a grade 1 tear still means ligament damage with micro-tearing of the ligament fibers but often won’t show up on MRI). |
I believe most people treat leg/groin injuries with more caution as well, which might explain why he missed so much time. |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:02 am Post subject: |
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| Dreamshake wrote: | | Judah wrote: | | His counterargument is that McGrady played in the East. Who's to say he would've still been able to pull it off in the West? |
The Rockets routinely made the playoffs with T-Mac, in the West. Even the season where he only played 47 games, the team went 27-20 with him. Davis has failed to get past 35 wins in 5 of 7 years.
T-Mac was a playoff choker no doubt. But someone who can barely get there is top 5, or comparable to the all-time greats at his position? |
Not fair to compare guards to bigs IMO.
Much harder for a big to carry a team on their own.
Funny too how this was the place where not making the playoffs was better than getting there if you dont win it all. |
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Inspector Gadget
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| Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:02 am Post subject: |
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| ocho wrote: | | Quote: | | MRI on right thumb of Anthony Davis returned clean today, league source tells ESPN. |
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:08 am Post subject: |
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| Inspector Gadget wrote: | | ocho wrote: | | Quote: | | MRI on right thumb of Anthony Davis returned clean today, league source tells ESPN. |
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Get used to this.
You won’t know the difference between severe injury and a boo boo. |
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LakerSD
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Joined: 10 Nov 2016
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| Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:10 am Post subject: |
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| epak wrote: | | LakerSD wrote: | Remember when Lebron’s MRI came back “clean”
Seriously though, let’s hope this time it’s actually true. We are (bleep) if it’s more serious than they are saying. |
Clean can still mean tears...
| Quote: | Dr. Rajpal Brar, DPT @3cbPerformance
As expected, AD’s MRI returned clean (technically, a grade 1 tear still means ligament damage with micro-tearing of the ligament fibers but often won’t show up on MRI). |
I believe most people treat leg/groin injuries with more caution as well, which might explain why he missed so much time. |
Thanks Doc  |
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KingKobe20
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Joined: 14 Jul 2006
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Location: L.A County, 26 miles away from Staples Center
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| Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:13 am Post subject: |
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Even before reading all the tweets from Sham and Woj I just had a good feeling it wasn’t too bad just seeing how he reacted after he pinned/block that shot off the backboard during that Nets game.
Plus sinking a 3 and a few free throws after he got his thumb tape up helped. |
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KingKobe20
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Location: L.A County, 26 miles away from Staples Center
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| Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:15 am Post subject: |
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This preseason schedule is straight up trash. Warriors, Nets twice , followed up by Warriors 3 straight.
It’s like why are we letting these teams get used to facing us at full power to help them prepare against us for the regular season? Lol
I expect us to sweep both of these bum squads next season |
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