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loslakersss
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 Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 12:51 pm Post subject: Is the signing stars formula lazy or do you see it as a good strategy? |
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I decided not to put this in the lounge because I think this pertains to most of the league and not just the Lakers.
So many GM's and owners want to swing for the fences when they could actually put money into scouting - both college and NBA players - to build a team of guys that are good, fit certain roles and can complement each other.
I'm not saying to never sign FA's or All-Star/Super-Stars if you can but that shouldn't be your only strategy.
Looking at recent teams like the GS pre-Durant, OKC before KD left, The Mavs, Indy, The Spurs from TD to KL, recent Boston, current Utah and MIL. Most of these teams had built their teams through good drafts, trades and FA signings of non-superstar guys. And they all were/are contenders.
Sure there are the Big 3 of Boston then Miami which proved it could work with stars but those teams also lost to non-big 3 teams. So I think aside from the obvious "you don't pass on Lebron if you can sign him", the swing for the fences in FA is not really the best method but the easiest - if you don't strike out.
What is your opinion on this? Sure the cap space thing is probably more sour to us than anyone besides the Knicks considering how often we've struck out but do you like the strategy or do you prefer another, more patient one? |
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cathy78
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Joined: 21 Jan 2013
Posts: 1414
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| Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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You can't build a winning team through the draft alone - you need to do some trades. But just getting one or two max contract stars will not make you a winning team. Especially since you don't have anything left to sign good players.
Signing the right players that fit together and complement each other is the thing to do. Names don't meant much. Greg Popovich knows a thing or two about this. |
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activeverb
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Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 37470
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| Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:55 pm Post subject: Re: Is the signing stars formula lazy or do you see it as a good strategy? |
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| loslakersss wrote: | I decided not to put this in the lounge because I think this pertains to most of the league and not just the Lakers.
So many GM's and owners want to swing for the fences when they could actually put money into scouting - both college and NBA players - to build a team of guys that are good, fit certain roles and can complement each other.
I'm not saying to never sign FA's or All-Star/Super-Stars if you can but that shouldn't be your only strategy.
Looking at recent teams like the GS pre-Durant, OKC before KD left, The Mavs, Indy, The Spurs from TD to KL, recent Boston, current Utah and MIL. Most of these teams had built their teams through good drafts, trades and FA signings of non-superstar guys. And they all were/are contenders.
Sure there are the Big 3 of Boston then Miami which proved it could work with stars but those teams also lost to non-big 3 teams. So I think aside from the obvious "you don't pass on Lebron if you can sign him", the swing for the fences in FA is not really the best method but the easiest - if you don't strike out.
What is your opinion on this? Sure the cap space thing is probably more sour to us than anyone besides the Knicks considering how often we've struck out but do you like the strategy or do you prefer another, more patient one? |
There's nothing wrong with signing stars through free agency. Got us Shaq. Nothing wrong with trading for them either. Got us Kareem. Nothing wrong with drafting guys you think will become stars. Got us Magic.
I don't think there is a best method for acquiring talent. You make decisions based on your opportunities, your analysis, your hunches, your position and hope it all works out. Usually, it doesn't -- at least it doesn't if you measure "working out" by rings and final appearances. |
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70sdude
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Joined: 05 Feb 2009
Posts: 4567
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| Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:51 am Post subject: |
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A "strategy" poorly executed is what I saw. Was it a bad strategy too ? It can work, seeing as how a single key player can propel a club to the next level, whatever that level may be.
Without insider information about who knew what about whom and when, I'm left to guessing. It appears to me that Magic and Pelinka were outmatched as both strategists and tacticians. They looked overconfident when it came to the leverage they held over the Pelicans, and were clearly insensitive (or unconcerned or blind) to the array of fall-outs in the current season likely following a failed trade encounter. |
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LakersRGolden
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Joined: 13 Jan 2002
Posts: 7916
Location: Lake Forest
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| Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 8:53 am Post subject: |
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| How many NBA champs in the last 40 years didn't draft one of their top two stars? |
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Gellollo
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Joined: 17 Jul 2008
Posts: 1555
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| Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:44 am Post subject: |
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| LakersRGolden wrote: | | How many NBA champs in the last 40 years didn't draft one of their top two stars? |
If you wanna get technical, 2000-2002 Lakers.
Also the 2004 Pistons, but that team wasn't star-centric.
Your point still stands though. It's not common. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:50 am Post subject: |
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A professional front office explores all options. You accumulate assets, then either keep them or trade them for better assets. You make prudent free agent signings. It's not a question of being patient, per se. It's a question of not being rash and imprudent.
When was the last time someone truly built a championship team through free agency? The closest was the Heat, but they already had Dwyane Wade. The Cavs already had Irving and traded for Love. The Warriors already had Curry and Thompson. We got Shaq as a free agent, but we won nothing until Kobe developed into a star. |
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xxsicrokerxx
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Joined: 11 Dec 2011
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| Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:12 am Post subject: |
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| Part of the annoying problem is media and national tv game commentators. They hype up teams signing stars like it automatically means they should win. And then you hear about it on the radio, twitter and tv shows. Literally making stories out of nothing for attention/ratings. "this team signed __ and __ and they're not doing, they need to __." Its a slow process, you have to be patient. |
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SuperboyReformed
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| Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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nothing wrong with it, and you probably have to do it to win anything.
the fans right now....IMO they are being ridiculous. what do you think the fans would say if magic said no to lebron, then the fans found out in february that lebron wanted to be a laker, but we said no. you think they're calling for his head now?
it's not magic's fault lebron sucks. everyone thought he was amazing. lol. nobody else is really sucking any more or less than they normally would. |
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Mike@LG
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Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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| cathy78 wrote: | You can't build a winning team through the draft alone - you need to do some trades. But just getting one or two max contract stars will not make you a winning team. Especially since you don't have anything left to sign good players.
Signing the right players that fit together and complement each other is the thing to do. Names don't meant much. Greg Popovich knows a thing or two about this. |
I mean.... you can actually build a winning team on draft alone... just hit on every pick and develop...
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Wino
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Joined: 07 Jun 2002
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Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | A professional front office explores all options. You accumulate assets, then either keep them or trade them for better assets. You make prudent free agent signings. It's not a question of being patient, per se. It's a question of not being rash and imprudent.
When was the last time someone truly built a championship team through free agency? The closest was the Heat, but they already had Dwyane Wade. The Cavs already had Irving and traded for Love. The Warriors already had Curry and Thompson. We got Shaq as a free agent, but we won nothing until Kobe developed into a star. |
And we traded for Kobe. Don't forget that!
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Wino
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| Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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| SuperboyReformed wrote: | nothing wrong with it, and you probably have to do it to win anything.
the fans right now....IMO they are being ridiculous. what do you think the fans would say if magic said no to lebron, then the fans found out in february that lebron wanted to be a laker, but we said no. you think they're calling for his head now?
it's not magic's fault lebron sucks. everyone thought he was amazing. lol. nobody else is really sucking any more or less than they normally would. |
It doesn't matter much what you do anymore. In anything you do in life, you reach crossroads and decisions have to be made. No matter what decision you make, if it becomes public, then there will be a group of people who don't like it. PERIOD!!! EVERY TIME!!! The ONLY time when people will agree with anything unanimously is when the end result is perfection. And up to that end result, a solid section of the public will be dragged screaming and yelling about how awful a decision it was. When they are proven wrong, they will shut up and say this was what they expected all along. All this while they will accept about 99% of the lies the media hoists on them.
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Never argue with stupid people! They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience!! - Twain |
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activeverb
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Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 37470
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| Posted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:29 am Post subject: |
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| Wino wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | A professional front office explores all options. You accumulate assets, then either keep them or trade them for better assets. You make prudent free agent signings. It's not a question of being patient, per se. It's a question of not being rash and imprudent.
When was the last time someone truly built a championship team through free agency? The closest was the Heat, but they already had Dwyane Wade. The Cavs already had Irving and traded for Love. The Warriors already had Curry and Thompson. We got Shaq as a free agent, but we won nothing until Kobe developed into a star. |
And we traded for Kobe. Don't forget that! |
That's a technicality, since Charlotte traded him for us. I would consider Kobe to be a draft pick for us, just as I would consider Lebron going to Miami to be a free agent even though technically he was a trade. |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 10:11 am Post subject: |
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It depends if the team has a strong indication that a FA is interested then it is a solid play. If a team does it year after year hoping that someone will come then it is lazy. The Clippers traded Harris for cap space, they either have an idea that he wasn’t going to re-sign or that they have a good chance at someone better. The Lakers did it annually hoping someone would sign. Finally they decided to build something and unfortunately that was short lived. Now Magic is counting on getting someone just because we are the Lakers. If one of the top FAs were interested, I doubt that we would have pushed for AD.
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Hammett
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| Posted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 10:52 am Post subject: |
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Creating a super team doesn't always guarantee success.
Malone-Payton then Coward-Nash blew up in our faces.
Miami Heat, for how good they were and how they dominated, fizzled out after 2 championships after promising to win 7. Now we're seeing GSW, one of the most ridiculously stacked teams of all time, start to fall apart. They just lost two games at home by 30+ points to weak teams.
The only thing is that right now most of the top 10 draft picks since Anthony Davis in 2012 have been pretty average, so everyone is really quick to want to pull the trigger to trade young assets for established stars.
IMO, its a lot pressure to put on the young guys: be a 25PPG player leading the team to the playoffs by your second season or get your ass shipped out.
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LakerLogic
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Joined: 27 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:30 am Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | It depends if the team has a strong indication that a FA is interested then it is a solid play. If a team does it year after year hoping that someone will come then it is lazy. The Clippers traded Harris for cap space, they either have an idea that he wasn’t going to re-sign or that they have a good chance at someone better. The Lakers did it annually hoping someone would sign. Finally they decided to build something and unfortunately that was short lived. Now Magic is counting on getting someone just because we are the Lakers. If one of the top FAs were interested, I doubt that we would have pushed for AD. |
Exactly. The writing is on the wall. |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerLogic wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | It depends if the team has a strong indication that a FA is interested then it is a solid play. If a team does it year after year hoping that someone will come then it is lazy. The Clippers traded Harris for cap space, they either have an idea that he wasn’t going to re-sign or that they have a good chance at someone better. The Lakers did it annually hoping someone would sign. Finally they decided to build something and unfortunately that was short lived. Now Magic is counting on getting someone just because we are the Lakers. If one of the top FAs were interested, I doubt that we would have pushed for AD. |
Exactly. The writing is on the wall. |
I don’t think it means that none are interested. It merely means that none are a lock. After the PG fiasco, they may be very nervous.
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LakerLogic
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Joined: 27 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | LakerLogic wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | It depends if the team has a strong indication that a FA is interested then it is a solid play. If a team does it year after year hoping that someone will come then it is lazy. The Clippers traded Harris for cap space, they either have an idea that he wasn’t going to re-sign or that they have a good chance at someone better. The Lakers did it annually hoping someone would sign. Finally they decided to build something and unfortunately that was short lived. Now Magic is counting on getting someone just because we are the Lakers. If one of the top FAs were interested, I doubt that we would have pushed for AD. |
Exactly. The writing is on the wall. |
I don’t think it means that none are interested. It merely means that none are a lock. After the PG fiasco, they may be very nervous. |
Their only chance is Kawhi imo. |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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I think there are several guys who could come.
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“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel |
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SuperboyReformed
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Joined: 07 Oct 2012
Posts: 4083
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| Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:23 am Post subject: |
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| Wino wrote: | | SuperboyReformed wrote: | nothing wrong with it, and you probably have to do it to win anything.
the fans right now....IMO they are being ridiculous. what do you think the fans would say if magic said no to lebron, then the fans found out in february that lebron wanted to be a laker, but we said no. you think they're calling for his head now?
it's not magic's fault lebron sucks. everyone thought he was amazing. lol. nobody else is really sucking any more or less than they normally would. |
It doesn't matter much what you do anymore. In anything you do in life, you reach crossroads and decisions have to be made. No matter what decision you make, if it becomes public, then there will be a group of people who don't like it. PERIOD!!! EVERY TIME!!! The ONLY time when people will agree with anything unanimously is when the end result is perfection. And up to that end result, a solid section of the public will be dragged screaming and yelling about how awful a decision it was. When they are proven wrong, they will shut up and say this was what they expected all along. All this while they will accept about 99% of the lies the media hoists on them. |
all true. |
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audioaxes
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| Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:56 am Post subject: |
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unrelentingly holding on to your drafted prospects can do just as much harm as constantly trading them away. More times than not your draft picks do NOT pan out to be the player you really need them to be and often times its best to sell high on them before you let them walk for nothing or lock up cap space for a player who really isnt championship core tier
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Wino
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Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:59 am Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | | Wino wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | A professional front office explores all options. You accumulate assets, then either keep them or trade them for better assets. You make prudent free agent signings. It's not a question of being patient, per se. It's a question of not being rash and imprudent.
When was the last time someone truly built a championship team through free agency? The closest was the Heat, but they already had Dwyane Wade. The Cavs already had Irving and traded for Love. The Warriors already had Curry and Thompson. We got Shaq as a free agent, but we won nothing until Kobe developed into a star. |
And we traded for Kobe. Don't forget that! |
That's a technicality, since Charlotte traded him for us. I would consider Kobe to be a draft pick for us, just as I would consider Lebron going to Miami to be a free agent even though technically he was a trade. |
Well, it's convenient for your argument but it is not the truth. He was traded here because they wanted Divac. It's NOT like they simply gifted him to us, Kobe threatened to sit out and we offered a reasonable trade package.
A trade is a trade, don't white wash it to fit your agenda.
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Never argue with stupid people! They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience!! - Twain |
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KBH
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Joined: 13 Sep 2008
Posts: 12171
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| Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Wino wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | Wino wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | A professional front office explores all options. You accumulate assets, then either keep them or trade them for better assets. You make prudent free agent signings. It's not a question of being patient, per se. It's a question of not being rash and imprudent.
When was the last time someone truly built a championship team through free agency? The closest was the Heat, but they already had Dwyane Wade. The Cavs already had Irving and traded for Love. The Warriors already had Curry and Thompson. We got Shaq as a free agent, but we won nothing until Kobe developed into a star. |
And we traded for Kobe. Don't forget that! |
That's a technicality, since Charlotte traded him for us. I would consider Kobe to be a draft pick for us, just as I would consider Lebron going to Miami to be a free agent even though technically he was a trade. |
Well, it's convenient for your argument but it is not the truth. He was traded here because they wanted Divac. It's NOT like they simply gifted him to us, Kobe threatened to sit out and we offered a reasonable trade package.
A trade is a trade, don't white wash it to fit your agenda. |
We told them to draft Kobe for us, though. It's not about fitting agendas. For all intents and purposes we traded Divac for the 13th pick and we drafted Kobe. The order in which it happened doesn't really matter. |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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| KBH wrote: | | Wino wrote: | | activeverb wrote: | | Wino wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | A professional front office explores all options. You accumulate assets, then either keep them or trade them for better assets. You make prudent free agent signings. It's not a question of being patient, per se. It's a question of not being rash and imprudent.
When was the last time someone truly built a championship team through free agency? The closest was the Heat, but they already had Dwyane Wade. The Cavs already had Irving and traded for Love. The Warriors already had Curry and Thompson. We got Shaq as a free agent, but we won nothing until Kobe developed into a star. |
And we traded for Kobe. Don't forget that! |
That's a technicality, since Charlotte traded him for us. I would consider Kobe to be a draft pick for us, just as I would consider Lebron going to Miami to be a free agent even though technically he was a trade. |
Well, it's convenient for your argument but it is not the truth. He was traded here because they wanted Divac. It's NOT like they simply gifted him to us, Kobe threatened to sit out and we offered a reasonable trade package.
A trade is a trade, don't white wash it to fit your agenda. |
We told them to draft Kobe for us, though. It's not about fitting agendas. For all intents and purposes we traded Divac for the 13th pick and we drafted Kobe. The order in which it happened doesn't really matter. |
That's exactly what I meant.
I consider Kobe to be a draft pick because Charlotte drafted him for us and then instantly sent him our way.
If Charlotte had been able to trade us the pick, and we could have said his name at the draft ourselves, he would officially be a draft pick rather than a trade. But as you said, the order doesn't matter, except as a technicality.
*
A lot these mechanisms overlap.
We we able to trade for Kareem and Wilt because they threatened to come here as free agents.
We got the draft rights to Magic and Worthy through trades.
I've seen Worthy on lists of the best draft picks in Laker history. and lists of the best trades in Laker history. |
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The Lebrons
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| Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2019 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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| It's lazy. Only works if you can land a top 5 guy with a team in place. |
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