Oh, there's a lot of scuttlebutt and gossip among players. Trevor Plouffe and Carson Smith never played for the Astros, so they know nothing. There are players from other teams talking about buzzers and stuff like that. We had the confetti thing, and the fake niece of Carlos Beltran. On the other hand, we had an actual investigation by MLB involving dozens of witnesses and thousands of e-mails and texts. The result of the investigation was bad enough, and it pisses me off that this was going on.
Anyway, most if not all teams have messed around with sign stealing over the years. I don't think anyone disputes that. The Astros cranked it up to 11 with the trash can tactic. That was the "innovation" that sets this apart (in addition to the fact that the dumbasses kept doing it after MLB announced a crackdown, which just makes me livid).
Think about the amount of time that passes between the time that the catcher gives the sign that the pitcher accepts and the time that the pitcher begins his motion. If there is a runner on base, there might be a delay, but generally speaking it is just a couple seconds, maybe five seconds top. In that amount of time, the guy watching the video would need to send the signal to the bullpen catcher, and the bullpen catcher would need to move his hand. That's possible. But then the batter would need to look at a catcher standing over three hundred feet away, focus on him, look back at the pitcher, focus on the pitcher, and then be ready to hit. That's not impossible, but it's not very practical. Furthermore, everyone can see the batter inexplicably looking at the bullpen just as the pitch is about to be thrown. This is the problem with these sorts of schemes.
That's why the trash can was so important. The batter could maintain focus on the pitcher and listen for the signal. This is why I say that the Astros cranked it up to 11. They deserve all of the contempt that they are receiving.
The point was you can steal signs on the road. Now how improbable you think that is will vary from person to person. To definitively say that a team caught cheating at home didn't also find a way to do it on the road is dismissive, IMO. But to say that because they cheated doesn't mean they cheated everywhere either. Both possibilities exist and neither are that far fetched although I see you lean more skeptical on this which isn't wrong. I'm a bit less skeptical but that doesn't mean I believe they did it, only that if we find out it happened that I wont be surprised at all.
It's hard to disprove a conspiracy theory. However, when we've had an exhaustive investigation by MLB with interviews of dozens of witnesses and review of thousands of emails and texts, the plausibility drops. When we have no actual evidence that it happened, the plausibility drops even more. Furthermore, as I've explained, this particular theory isn't really practicable, especially in an opponent's ballpark. But can I conclusively prove that it never happened? As I said, it's hard to disprove a conspiracy theory.
Again, I'm not saying it happened but rather that in a stadium like Dodger Stadium where the bullpens are in the outfield it is easy to see a signal of hand up on the fence vs down. I went and checked pics/video from when I was sitting behind home plate to confirm the visibility is clear from that distance. It only takes half a second to look up and then re-focus on the pitcher. The other part, camera + radio, I agree is far fetched. But I digress, there isn't really much to talk about on this since in the end it is all conjecture.
Again, I'm not saying it happened but rather that in a stadium like Dodger Stadium where the bullpens are in the outfield it is easy to see a signal of hand up on the fence vs down. I went and checked pics/video from when I was sitting behind home plate to confirm the visibility is clear from that distance. It only takes half a second to look up and then re-focus on the pitcher. The other part, camera + radio, I agree is far fetched. But I digress, there isn't really much to talk about on this since in the end it is all conjecture.
Okay, but this is something that can be detected. The TV broadcast is focused on the batter and the pitcher. If the batters keep flicking their eyes toward the bullpen just as the pitch is about to be thrown (when there is no one on base in that direction), that's evidence. There isn't a live feed on the bullpen, but someone ought to have video (even amateur) of a bullpen catcher moving his hands on the wall with each pitch. That would be evidence.
In fact, this is the problem with this sort of hypothetical scheme -- it's going to be readily detectable by the opposing team. This was why the trash can "innovation" cranked this up to 11 -- it was not visually detectable and did not require the batter to take his eyes off the pitcher.
I agree with you that it has it's flaws but the trashcan thing did too - not on the sign stealing part but on the relaying through something everyone, even viewers on tv, could hear. The thing is that we didn't notice it until we were told about it 2 years later and started looking for it. I do agree that is is unlikely and without any proof there's no reason to continue entertaining it.
Still waiting on Boston's punishment.
You would think they would do it before spring training, sheesh.
And just take away the title from both teams (Sox & Stros) _________________ 💜💛 🏆 👀 🍖 #18!!!
Joined: 24 Jun 2018 Posts: 223 Location: Kyiv, Ukraine
Posted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 12:39 am Post subject:
es they did because it takes a large market team to bail out another large market teams mistakes lol. This time they did get an all star in return with Betts but for how long like an mr bet nz, he wants over 400 million and over 10 years lol, I have watched his entire career and he is not worth that kind of coin imo. _________________ Lakers Defense - ♿♿♿
Report: Astros front office laid groundwork for 'Codebreaker' sign-stealing program
The Houston Astros' front office laid the groundwork for the team's electronic sign-stealing ploys via a program dubbed "Codebreaker" that was introduced by an intern in the organization in September 2016, The Wall Street Journal reported Friday.
According to the WSJ, the Excel-based application designed to decode opposing catchers' signs was used throughout the 2017 season and for part of 2018 by Astros baseball operations employees and video room staffers both at home and on the road.
Staffers would log the catcher's signs and subsequent pitches into a spreadsheet and "Codebreaker" would determine how the signs related to different pitches. The information would then be communicated to the hitter by a baserunner via an intermediary.
Astros players eventually evolved the system to include banging on a trash can to warn hitters of the coming pitch.
Ex-Astros general manager Jeff Luhnow told MLB investigators that he remembers the intern's PowerPoint slide about "Codebreaker," but said he thought it would be used to legally decipher signs from previous games, according to the WSJ.
The former intern, Derek Vigoa, currently works as the Astros' senior manager of team operations. Vigoa told investigators that he assumed Luhnow knew the program would be used in live games.
The team's director of advance information, Tom Koch-Weser, also alleges Luhnow knew about the system. According to the WSJ, Koch-Weser told MLB that the former GM would occasionally go to the Astros' video room during road games and make comments like, "You guys Codebreaking?"
Luhnow declined the WSJ's request for comment but, according to the paper's reporting, denied Koch-Weser's accounts to MLB, and investigators could find no definitive proof that Luhnow knew how "Codebreaker" was being used.
Luhnow was fired by the Astros last month, shortly after MLB suspended him for one season.
Joined: 12 Feb 2002 Posts: 3829 Location: South Orange County
Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 6:15 am Post subject:
LongBeachPoly wrote:
Quote:
Report: Astros front office laid groundwork for 'Codebreaker' sign-stealing program
The Houston Astros' front office laid the groundwork for the team's electronic sign-stealing ploys via a program dubbed "Codebreaker" that was introduced by an intern in the organization in September 2016, The Wall Street Journal reported Friday.
According to the WSJ, the Excel-based application designed to decode opposing catchers' signs was used throughout the 2017 season and for part of 2018 by Astros baseball operations employees and video room staffers both at home and on the road.
Staffers would log the catcher's signs and subsequent pitches into a spreadsheet and "Codebreaker" would determine how the signs related to different pitches. The information would then be communicated to the hitter by a baserunner via an intermediary.
Astros players eventually evolved the system to include banging on a trash can to warn hitters of the coming pitch.
Ex-Astros general manager Jeff Luhnow told MLB investigators that he remembers the intern's PowerPoint slide about "Codebreaker," but said he thought it would be used to legally decipher signs from previous games, according to the WSJ.
The former intern, Derek Vigoa, currently works as the Astros' senior manager of team operations. Vigoa told investigators that he assumed Luhnow knew the program would be used in live games.
The team's director of advance information, Tom Koch-Weser, also alleges Luhnow knew about the system. According to the WSJ, Koch-Weser told MLB that the former GM would occasionally go to the Astros' video room during road games and make comments like, "You guys Codebreaking?"
Luhnow declined the WSJ's request for comment but, according to the paper's reporting, denied Koch-Weser's accounts to MLB, and investigators could find no definitive proof that Luhnow knew how "Codebreaker" was being used.
Luhnow was fired by the Astros last month, shortly after MLB suspended him for one season.
Why...this is impossible...they were stealing signs on the road too? How dare they accuse a team that admitted to stealing signs at home of also stealing signs on the road in this article! And then they were coming up with ways to communicate those signs to an intermediary? There is literally no way imaginable that they could have done this. Sounds like a conspiracy theory.
Doesn’t ESPN know there was an exhaustive investigation where the players admitted everything and all evidence was uncovered?
Nope, wrong. This is just more of the feeding frenzy. What the Wall Street Journal is describing is not what the Astros got busted for doing. In fact, it is legal. You could do most of it sitting on your sofa watching a game. I expect that most if not all major league teams decode signs in the video room. Otherwise, a runner on second base would not be able to steal the signs and relay them to the batter. Yet sign stealing by baserunners is acknowledged as legal.
The WSJ writer doesn't understand this distinction. If you took the article seriously, someone was decoding the signs in the video room, then somehow relaying the information from the video room to the dugout and then to a baserunner, and the baserunner was then relaying the information to the batter. This would all take place between the time the pitcher accepts the sign and the time the ball is thrown. That's impossible. And what happens if there is no baserunner?
The WSJ writer just didn't understand what he/she was being told. None of this has anything to do with what the Astros were busted for doing, why it was apparently effective, or most importantly why it was illegal.
Joined: 12 Feb 2002 Posts: 3829 Location: South Orange County
Posted: Sat Feb 08, 2020 9:54 am Post subject:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
^^^^
Nope, wrong. This is just more of the feeding frenzy. What the Wall Street Journal is describing is not what the Astros got busted for doing. In fact, it is legal. You could do most of it sitting on your sofa watching a game. I expect that most if not all major league teams decode signs in the video room. Otherwise, a runner on second base would not be able to steal the signs and relay them to the batter. Yet sign stealing by baserunners is acknowledged as legal.
The WSJ writer doesn't understand this distinction. If you took the article seriously, someone was decoding the signs in the video room, then somehow relaying the information from the video room to the dugout and then to a baserunner, and the baserunner was then relaying the information to the batter. This would all take place between the time the pitcher accepts the sign and the time the ball is thrown. That's impossible. And what happens if there is no baserunner?
The WSJ writer just didn't understand what he/she was being told. None of this has anything to do with what the Astros were busted for doing, why it was apparently effective, or most importantly why it was illegal.
The Wall Street Journal writer, Jared King, author of “Swing Kings, The Inside Story of Baseball’s Home Run Revolution”, wasn’t understanding what he was being told? Hmm.
Now we’ve gone from, “There is no evidence they’ve done any of this on the road after MLB’s exhaustive investigation”, to...they were stealing signs with technology and communicating that data in real time on the road too. It’s not a great leap to think that, just like at home, they sought out ways to communicate those signs to the batters just like they were at home. Whistles, claps, shouts, buzzers...it’s not rocket science.
I wonder if there is corroborating forensic data that shows the Astros as a statistical outlier when looking at strikeouts/power on the road from 2016 to 2017 as well. Of course there is!
Now we’ve gone from, “There is no evidence they’ve done any of this on the road after MLB’s exhaustive investigation”, to...they were stealing signs with technology and communicating that data in real time on the road too. It’s not a great leap to think that, just like at home, they sought out ways to communicate those signs to the batters just like they were at home. Whistles, claps, shouts, buzzers...it’s not rocket science.
The problem with your argument is that no one claims that this happened. That is not what the Astros were busted for doing, though you will find a description of it in the MLB report. Instead, the Astros cranked it up to 11. The Astros installed a video monitor next to the dugout at Minute Maid and used it in connection with banging on the trash can. That’s what the scandal is about.
Sources: MLB weighing major changes to postseason, including growing number of teams to 14
Major League Baseball is mulling significant changes to its postseason, including increasing the number of teams from 10 to 14 and adding a reality-TV-type format to determine which teams play each other in an expanded wild-card round, sources told ESPN.
MLB is considering a move in which each league would have three division winners and four wild-card teams make the postseason, sources said. The best team in the league would receive a bye into the division series, while the two remaining division winners and the wild-card team with the best record of the four would each host all games of a best-of-three series of the opening round.
The potential changes were first reported by the New York Post.
Once the teams clinch, and the regular season ends, the plan gets congested:
The division winner with the second-best record would select its wild-card opponent from the three wild-card winners with the worst records of the four.
The team with the worst record of the three division winners would pick its opponent from the remaining two wild-card teams.
The final matchup would pit the wild-card winner with the best record against the wild-card team not chosen.
All of the selections, sources said, would be unveiled live on television the Sunday night of the final regular-season games.
The winners of the wild-card series would advance to the divisional round. Currently, two teams from each league play a winner-take-all wild-card game, and the winner faces the team with the league's best record.
The appeal of the changes, according to the Post, is twofold. It potentially would increase fan interest, and could benefit MLB via richer television rights package.
Deals with ESPN and Turner both expire after the 2021 season.
Great. All we need is mediocre playoff teams to “add” to the excitement. This might be the worst and most annoying idea I’ve ever heard in professional sports.
If they want to add playoff games, I could go for making the Division Series a best of 7.
162 season followed by a 14 team postseason makes the regular season even less meaningful in my opinion. Especially now that most division winners will be playing in the wild card round.
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144461 Location: The Gold Coast
Posted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 6:39 pm Post subject:
Steve007 wrote:
If they want to add playoff games, I could go for making the Division Series a best of 7.
162 season followed by a 14 team postseason makes the regular season even less meaningful in my opinion. Especially now that most division winners will be playing in the wild card round.
Go the NCAA basketball route, all teams make the playoffs and every game is an elimination game. I would watch that. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023.
If they want to add playoff games, I could go for making the Division Series a best of 7.
162 season followed by a 14 team postseason makes the regular season even less meaningful in my opinion. Especially now that most division winners will be playing in the wild card round.
Go the NCAA basketball route, all teams make the playoffs and every game is an elimination game. I would watch that.
Might as well. At least the playoffs won’t drag on for an eternity.
Glad to see everyone seems to hate this idea (so far anyway).
Quote:
No idea who made this new playoff format proposal, but Rob is responsible for releasing it, so I’ll direct this to you, Rob Manfred. Your proposal is absurd for too many reasons to type on twitter and proves you have absolutely no clue about baseball. You’re a joke.
Joined: 25 Apr 2015 Posts: 31910 Location: Anaheim, CA
Posted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:27 pm Post subject:
This is what is known as an evisceration!
Trevor Bauer
@BauerOutage
·
5h
No idea who made this new playoff format proposal, but Rob is responsible for releasing it, so I’ll direct this to you, Rob Manfred. Your proposal is absurd for too many reasons to type on twitter and proves you have absolutely no clue about baseball. You’re a joke.
Joined: 25 Apr 2015 Posts: 31910 Location: Anaheim, CA
Posted: Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:08 am Post subject:
Zack Meisel
@ZackMeisel
Sources: Mike Clevinger is scheduled to undergo surgery today after he sustained partial of the medial meniscus in his left knee while training this week. He has been on crutches. Timetable for a return will be established following the procedure.
6:55 AM · Feb 14, 2020·Twitter Web App
Looks like a 6-8 week timetable for him.
Last edited by ChickenStu on Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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