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loslakersss
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 2:25 pm    Post subject:

Honestly at this point the Astros just exposed the fact that the league is morally bankrupt as long as they're making money.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 3:40 pm    Post subject:

loslakersss wrote:
^ I don't know why reduced punishment wasn't on the table rather than full immunity. Can't fault the players for taking the deal though. Manfred is just a puppet for the owners, and a coward in regards to the players' union.


This is what's baffling to me. The rosters on 29 other teams as well as the owners of the other 29 teams got absolutely boned. This should be a slam dunk between both owners and players to do what's right. Strip them.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 3:58 pm    Post subject:

loslakersss wrote:
Honestly at this point the Astros just exposed the fact that the league is morally bankrupt as long as they're making money.


MLB stripping the 2017 and 2018 titles makes the league look bad as well so I can see why they don't want to do it.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:02 pm    Post subject:

lakersken80 wrote:
loslakersss wrote:
Honestly at this point the Astros just exposed the fact that the league is morally bankrupt as long as they're making money.


MLB stripping the 2017 and 2018 titles makes the league look bad as well so I can see why they don't want to do it.


Yeah but they also have to ask themselves if there’s any type of cheating egregious enough to warrant stripping a title away.

And if they say there is some level of cheating that would warrant stripping the title away, then they have to compare why they felt in this instance it wasn’t egregious enough.

This does seem pretty egregious though
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LongBeachPoly
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:02 pm    Post subject:

lakersken80 wrote:
loslakersss wrote:
Honestly at this point the Astros just exposed the fact that the league is morally bankrupt as long as they're making money.


MLB stripping the 2017 and 2018 titles makes the league look bad as well so I can see why they don't want to do it.


Yeah but they also have to ask themselves if there’s any type of cheating egregious enough to warrant stripping a title away.

And if they say there is some level of cheating that would warrant stripping the title away, then they have to compare why they felt in this instance it wasn’t egregious enough.

This does seem pretty egregious though
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:42 pm    Post subject:

I wish this was a joke. Link Now we just need some TV ads.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:47 pm    Post subject:

SGV-Laker fan wrote:
let the Asstros players yapping away all they want. they're showing their stupidity for speaking out about unity, rather than just shut the hell up and not saying anything. they're cheaters and also not very smart especially for their hitters as they WILL get hit a lot next season.


They tried to shut up. They were criticized for that too. For not being sorry enough as well. They will catch it no matter what. Their bad.

As far as getting hit a lot, the good thing about baseball is the other team gets to pitch too. That will cut down on that type of activity.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:50 pm    Post subject:

loslakersss wrote:
Honestly at this point the Astros just exposed the fact that the league is morally bankrupt as long as they're making money.


I wouldn’t say that. I just think it has some screwed up rules and the Union has too much legal power. The legal points made in the article, regarding why MLB would likely lose vs the Union, seemed pretty spot on.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 7:09 pm    Post subject:

Surprised other teams didn't catch on to obvious stuff like the banging on the trashcan. If the batter can hear that, so can the catcher.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 7:10 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
loslakersss wrote:
Can we all at least agree that Manfred is a coward for offering complete immunity to players rather than reduced punishment?


As best I can tell, this is something that got made up by sports writers. There is nothing in the Manfred report about immunity, and in fact he discusses the possibility of disciplining players but decides not to do so. If he granted immunity, he would not be explaining why he decided not to discipline the players.

I've seen a couple sports writers saying that Manfred gave immunity to players who cooperated, but they cite no sources, and I've seen nothing to substantiate this. I think that this is just a case of a couple sports writers talking out of their posteriors.



Dreamshake wrote:

But there is a simpler explanation for why no players were penalized: The league and the MLB Players Association struck an agreement early in the process that granted immunity in exchange for honest testimony, according to several people familiar with the matter.


Aeneas Hunter wrote:
That's behind a paywall. From the snippet that is visible, it sounds like there was a deal cut with the union. That makes sense.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:00 pm    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:
SGV-Laker fan wrote:
let the Asstros players yapping away all they want. they're showing their stupidity for speaking out about unity, rather than just shut the hell up and not saying anything. they're cheaters and also not very smart especially for their hitters as they WILL get hit a lot next season.


They tried to shut up. They were criticized for that too. For not being sorry enough as well. They will catch it no matter what. Their bad.

As far as getting hit a lot, the good thing about baseball is the other team gets to pitch too. That will cut down on that type of activity.


The umpires will shut it down. It might happen a little bit at the beginning of the season, but MLB will bring down the hammer. MLB does not want this issue getting inflamed over and over again as we go into the season.
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:04 pm    Post subject:

Hammett wrote:
Surprised other teams didn't catch on to obvious stuff like the banging on the trashcan. If the batter can hear that, so can the catcher.


You know, I've had the same thought. The report talks about one pitcher who got suspicious, but given how paranoid teams get about this stuff, it's surprising that no one else put two and two together. Maybe it was just so brazen that no one thought the Astros could be that stupid.
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eddiejonze
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:31 pm    Post subject:

It's not relevant if the umps shut down opposing pitchers beaning the Astros hitters.
It's that they deserve to get beaned.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:38 am    Post subject:

eddiejonze wrote:
It's not relevant if the umps shut down opposing pitchers beaning the Astros hitters.
It's that they deserve to get beaned.


Whether they deserve it or not, their pitchers still get an opportunity to hit the other team back. So.....all that likely won’t be an issue.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:11 am    Post subject:

lakersken80 wrote:
loslakersss wrote:
Honestly at this point the Astros just exposed the fact that the league is morally bankrupt as long as they're making money.


MLB stripping the 2017 and 2018 titles makes the league look bad as well so I can see why they don't want to do it.


I wasn't saying they should strip the titles. But I think they should have handed out player suspensions even if they were pretty certain that the union would appeal and win. At then it looks like they tried to punish the wrongdoers but were hamstrung by the union. Rather than not trying at all.

The league said they wanted to solve this quickly so that's why then granted immunity. But their reactions to the cheating being confirmed to have not only happened but to have impacted playoff series shows that they didn't care at all. They just wanted to look like they cared about the integrity of the game.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 12:23 pm    Post subject:

On the question of whether Jim Crane would do it again?

Quote:
....owner Jim Crane, whose club made more than $60 million the season after stealing signs all the way to a World Series title.....

https://www.star-telegram.com/sports/mlb/texas-rangers/article239541958.html
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2020 9:37 pm    Post subject:

According to Jon Heyman:

Arenado would waive his no trade clause and his opt out for a trade to St Louis Cardinals.

Arenado has always felt like a pipe dream, but getting Goldschmidt felt like a pipe dream as well.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 10:24 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter

Thoughts on the data in this article?

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/how-much-did-the-astros-really-benefit-from-sign-stealing/
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2020 11:04 am    Post subject:

Dreamshake wrote:
Aeneas Hunter

Thoughts on the data in this article?

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/how-much-did-the-astros-really-benefit-from-sign-stealing/


I've seen similar analyses. The data is surprising, in that the Astros improved more on the road than at home in 2017. In fact, a lot of the data purporting to show a big advantage for the Astros is suspect, like that chart comparing the Astros' numbers in 2013 to 2017. A lot of the data is at best inconclusive as to whether the Astros gained a noticeable advantage, and we are left with the indisputable fact that the Astros won 107 games in 2019, long after the cheating scheme ended.

But I'm not going to obsess about the stats. Cheaters don't get the benefit of the doubt. The Astros thought they were getting an advantage from it, and that's sufficient for me. Even if somehow they didn't gain a net benefit, they still corrupted the integrity of the game.
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eddiejonze
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2020 1:12 am    Post subject:

Robinson Chirinos video proof of buzzer and tape on bat in the WS:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAIqyPIv-q8

They did it on the road too, folks...
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2020 7:15 am    Post subject:

You think Chirinos had a buzzer on his bat and that the Astros were stealing signs on the road? Okay, that crosses the line into silliness.
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loslakersss
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2020 8:44 am    Post subject:

I'm not going to believe something simply because I don't like the Astros but I do wonder what that was that Chirinos was handling.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2020 10:30 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
You think Chirinos had a buzzer on his bat and that the Astros were stealing signs on the road? Okay, that crosses the line into silliness.


While I'm not saying he did it, but if you told me they were banging on trashcans to convey signs I would've thought that was silly as well...
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2020 12:16 pm    Post subject:

oasisdude77 wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
You think Chirinos had a buzzer on his bat and that the Astros were stealing signs on the road? Okay, that crosses the line into silliness.


While I'm not saying he did it, but if you told me they were banging on trashcans to convey signs I would've thought that was silly as well...


1. Why would you ever put a buzzer on the bat? At least the theory about buzzers concealed under clothing was a colorable conspiracy theory, even though it has already been debunked. This one is just plain stupid.

2. The Astros were busted for stealing signs with hidden cameras at home. You can't do that on the road. No one has ever suggested otherwise. So now the Astros installed secret cameras at the Nationals' stadium?

So yeah, this one is just silly.
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loslakersss
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2020 12:26 pm    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
oasisdude77 wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
You think Chirinos had a buzzer on his bat and that the Astros were stealing signs on the road? Okay, that crosses the line into silliness.


While I'm not saying he did it, but if you told me they were banging on trashcans to convey signs I would've thought that was silly as well...


1. Why would you ever put a buzzer on the bat? At least the theory about buzzers concealed under clothing was a colorable conspiracy theory, even though it has already been debunked. This one is just plain stupid.

2. The Astros were busted for stealing signs with hidden cameras at home. You can't do that on the road. No one has ever suggested otherwise. So now the Astros installed secret cameras at the Nationals' stadium?

So yeah, this one is just silly.


There had been talks about them stealing on the road by having someone sit in the outfield and use a camera and then relay it to the bullpen. The person in the bullpen would either have their hand up on the fence or down to signal fastball/off speed. While this hasn't been confirmed to my knowledge, this is far from impossible.

Even the 1950's Giants cheated in a similar fashion using a radio and telescope to steal signs during the game. So saying you need an installed camera is far from accurate.

I do agree that the buzzer on bat would be insanely stupid. I still can't figure out what that object was though - but that doesn't automatically mean it was something used for cheating.
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