Only if you believe that people always divulge everything when offered immunity.
I believe that if you are going to confess and take all this heat for the season you won then it doesn’t make much sense to lie and put that immunity at risk in a season where you lost.
Cool.
And that same theory applies in criminal cases. Yet, witnesses offered immunity lie all the time.
Uh, the stakes are kinda different in criminal cases wouldn’t you say, either for you or those you tell on. Cmon now.
The players are getting killed. I just don’t see his lying about the other seasons benefits them. Folks still think they cheated in those years anyway.
Except human nature for those that cheat and lie is to deny, deny, deny until you have no choice. It's the same mentality that gets them to cheat in the first place. You don't develop character over night. You either have it or you don't, and clearly that organization fosters and supports those that don't. No reason for them to come clean other than integrity and we know where that discussion leads...
The reason to come clean is you’ve been given immunity. Not integrity. I could see risking your immunity to not tarnish a future season you won in. But when you lost...
Joined: 22 Mar 2003 Posts: 3264 Location: so many places
Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:10 pm Post subject:
Dreamshake wrote:
LongBeachPoly wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
LongBeachPoly wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
LongBeachPoly wrote:
Only if you believe that people always divulge everything when offered immunity.
I believe that if you are going to confess and take all this heat for the season you won then it doesn’t make much sense to lie and put that immunity at risk in a season where you lost.
Cool.
And that same theory applies in criminal cases. Yet, witnesses offered immunity lie all the time.
Uh, the stakes are kinda different in criminal cases wouldn’t you say, either for you or those you tell on. Cmon now.
The players are getting killed. I just don’t see his lying about the other seasons benefits them. Folks still think they cheated in those years anyway.
So immunity only works in mlb is your point?
My initial point is I don’t see what the players have to gain by lying about seasons they lost when they already have immunity and will catch heat for when they won. Why do you think they would lie about future seasons? What is there to gain?
The second point is comparing this to any criminal case where you or someone you told on can go to jail is not a very good comparison. Kinda different from keeping you or someone else from behind bars.
Reputation. Yes they are thought to have cheated all those other seasons too but there is plausible deniability. Also easy to sleep with yourself if you convince yourself it was "just that one time". That's the mind of a cheater. Conceding you cheated other seasons says you are bad as opposed to making a bad choice.
My initial point is I don’t see what the players have to gain by lying about seasons they lost when they already have immunity and will catch heat for when they won. Why do you think they would lie about future seasons? What is there to gain?
The second point is comparing this to any criminal case where you or someone you told on can go to jail is not a very good comparison. Kinda different from keeping you or someone else from behind bars.
Like I said, your point is immunity only works in mlb and not in criminal cases.
Joined: 22 Mar 2003 Posts: 3264 Location: so many places
Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:12 pm Post subject:
Dreamshake wrote:
strong9 wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
LongBeachPoly wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
LongBeachPoly wrote:
Only if you believe that people always divulge everything when offered immunity.
I believe that if you are going to confess and take all this heat for the season you won then it doesn’t make much sense to lie and put that immunity at risk in a season where you lost.
Cool.
And that same theory applies in criminal cases. Yet, witnesses offered immunity lie all the time.
Uh, the stakes are kinda different in criminal cases wouldn’t you say, either for you or those you tell on. Cmon now.
The players are getting killed. I just don’t see his lying about the other seasons benefits them. Folks still think they cheated in those years anyway.
Except human nature for those that cheat and lie is to deny, deny, deny until you have no choice. It's the same mentality that gets them to cheat in the first place. You don't develop character over night. You either have it or you don't, and clearly that organization fosters and supports those that don't. No reason for them to come clean other than integrity and we know where that discussion leads...
The reason to come clean is you’ve been given immunity. Not integrity. I could see risking your immunity to not tarnish a future season you won in. But when you lost...
Dreamshake - these guys have to look in the mirror and face family. Guys like that lie to their grave instead of facing what they did. Look at Correa's response to Bellinger, that's quintessential defensiveness for a guy and team that is still in denial about their true character.
The reason to come clean is you’ve been given immunity. Not integrity. I could see risking your immunity to not tarnish a future season you won in. But when you lost...
What is the actual risk any ways? If everyone is taking all the testimonies to be gospel truths, what's the actual risk?
Is mlb doing a followup investigation into the truths of these testimonies? Or all the testimonies just accepted as 100% truths because they were under "immunity"?
What actually can be proven if Altuve told the investigators that he never wore a buzzer and every other Astros told the investigators the same thing?
What we do know is that they all confessed to what Mike Fiers told the Athletic. I don't think they confessed to anything outside of what Mike Fiers accused them of doing.
Joined: 22 Mar 2003 Posts: 3264 Location: so many places
Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:19 pm Post subject:
LongBeachPoly wrote:
What we do know is that they all confessed to what Mike Fiers told the Athletic. I don't think they confessed to anything outside of what Mike Fiers accused them of doing.
Bingo and they won't unless faced with incontrovertible evidence and since they didn't win in other seasons baseball has every incentive to put this to rest and not let the scandal become worse. Manfred's actions already make that clear.
Last edited by strong9 on Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
"The problem I have is when players go out there and they don't know the facts, they're not informed about the situation, and they just go out there and go on camera and just talk," Correa said in an interview that will air on MLB Network.
So go ahead and inform us about the situation Correa
Quote:
"When [Bellinger] talks about that we cheated for three years, he either doesn't know how to read, is really bad at reading comprehension or is just not informed at all," Correa told The Athletic. "The commissioner's report clearly says that all those activities were conducted in 2017. 2018 nothing happened. 2019 nothing happened. It was just talented players, playing the game of baseball with passion and winning ballgames."
Astros players taking the commissioner's report as gospel truths again.
Quote:
Regarding reports that Altuve might have had a buzzer system inside his jersey, Correa pointed to an earlier incident in which he ripped off his teammate's jersey and said the second baseman was trying to hide an unfinished tattoo.
1) My wife..
2) I'm too shy...
3) Unfinished tattoo?
Joined: 22 Mar 2003 Posts: 3264 Location: so many places
Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 1:24 pm Post subject:
LongBeachPoly wrote:
Quote:
"The problem I have is when players go out there and they don't know the facts, they're not informed about the situation, and they just go out there and go on camera and just talk," Correa said in an interview that will air on MLB Network.
So go ahead and inform us about the situation Correa
Quote:
"When [Bellinger] talks about that we cheated for three years, he either doesn't know how to read, is really bad at reading comprehension or is just not informed at all," Correa told The Athletic. "The commissioner's report clearly says that all those activities were conducted in 2017. 2018 nothing happened. 2019 nothing happened. It was just talented players, playing the game of baseball with passion and winning ballgames."
As*tros players taking the commissioner's report as gospel truths again.
The reason to come clean is you’ve been given immunity. Not integrity. I could see risking your immunity to not tarnish a future season you won in. But when you lost...
Let it go, man. You're arguing with people who are invested in a conspiracy theory. The Commissioner's report is bad enough, but it is factual. The conspiracy theories don't depend on facts, and you can't defeat them with facts. By the way, here's another fact: MLB put in-person monitors in video rooms during the 2018 playoffs and throughout the 2019 regular season.
The reason to come clean is you’ve been given immunity. Not integrity. I could see risking your immunity to not tarnish a future season you won in. But when you lost...
Let it go, man. You're arguing with people who are invested in a conspiracy theory. The Commissioner's report is bad enough, but it is factual. The conspiracy theories don't depend on facts, and you can't defeat them with facts. By the way, here's another fact: MLB put in-person monitors in video rooms during the 2018 playoffs and throughout the 2019 regular season.
Yup, I remember when sign stealing was a conspiracy theory:
Might a recommended r/Astros where only facts are discussed there?
My initial point is I don’t see what the players have to gain by lying about seasons they lost when they already have immunity and will catch heat for when they won. Why do you think they would lie about future seasons? What is there to gain?
The second point is comparing this to any criminal case where you or someone you told on can go to jail is not a very good comparison. Kinda different from keeping you or someone else from behind bars.
Like I said, your point is immunity only works in mlb and not in criminal cases.
Like I said, my point is immunity works in this instance (where you already tarnished your rep when you won), which isn’t comparable to a criminal case in any way.
My initial point is I don’t see what the players have to gain by lying about seasons they lost when they already have immunity and will catch heat for when they won. Why do you think they would lie about future seasons? What is there to gain?
The second point is comparing this to any criminal case where you or someone you told on can go to jail is not a very good comparison. Kinda different from keeping you or someone else from behind bars.
Like I said, your point is immunity only works in mlb and not in criminal cases.
Like I said, my point is immunity works in this instance (where you already tarnished your rep when you won), which isn’t comparable to a criminal case in any way.
Gotcha.
Immunity works in mlb. It doesn't work in a criminal case.
Here's a question, if Congress got involved, would immunity work then? I'm not quite sure how to classify that.
I don't remember McGwire or Palmeiro being forthright with Congress. But then again, they probably didn't get immunity....
Quote:
Mr. Canseco said he could not answer some questions unless he was given immunity from prosecution. He said an "overzealous prosecutor" in Florida could try to use his testimony to revoke his probation on an unrelated offense. Steroid use is a crime.
Representative Tom Davis, committee chairman and Republican of Virginia, said he tried to get immunity for Mr. Canseco but did not have time to resolve issues with the Justice Department, which must approve immunity. No other players asked for immunity or refused to answer questions.
I'm glad Cody Bellinger put out a strong worded response to their apologies and the Astros players fell for his bait....now we know they were never really sincere about their apologies and are coming up with new excuses.....a bad tatoo?
Immunity in this case means nothing. Just a cheap way to save face with he media and fans, in order to put together a quick ‘confession’ from the Houston players and move on. To we quote Bellinger, it’s weak. Houston’s players might be immune from fines and league punishment but they won’t be immune from public scrutiny and that of their peers’. We all know what they did, they were caught red handed. To admit to the action and run away from the consequences shows a blatant lack of character.
Carlos Correa has made the Astros even more hated than they were yesterday. Well done, Carlos!
If Altuve and those other two players really didn’t cheat then it was a job well done to clear their names. Especially with one winning the MVP.
How exactly does a cheater clear someone else's name though? Why did Crane force Altuve to apologize?
Cheaters can clearly tell the truth, like Fiers did to kickstart all of this. Is your stance now that someone who cheated or lied is incapable of telling the truth....ever?
You’d have to ask Crane. Maybe because he was one of the team leaders and didn’t stop it.
Carlos Correa has made the Astros even more hated than they were yesterday. Well done, Carlos!
If Altuve and those other two players really didn’t cheat then it was a job well done to clear their names. Especially with one winning the MVP.
How exactly does a cheater clear someone else's name though? Why did Crane force Altuve to apologize?
Cheaters can clearly tell the truth, like Fiers did to kickstart all of this. Is your stance now that someone who cheated or lied is incapable of telling the truth....ever?
You’d have to ask Crane. Maybe because he was one of the team leaders and didn’t stop it.
I'm asking how does a cheater clear another cheater's name. Simple question.
I'm asking how does one go about doing it.
By making a proclamation?
I'll make you a deal, I'll ask Crane and you ask Correa. Deal?
We'll get back with each other later...
Last edited by LongBeachPoly on Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 22 Mar 2003 Posts: 3264 Location: so many places
Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:03 pm Post subject:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
The reason to come clean is you’ve been given immunity. Not integrity. I could see risking your immunity to not tarnish a future season you won in. But when you lost...
Let it go, man. You're arguing with people who are invested in a conspiracy theory. The Commissioner's report is bad enough, but it is factual. The conspiracy theories don't depend on facts, and you can't defeat them with facts. By the way, here's another fact: MLB put in-person monitors in video rooms during the 2018 playoffs and throughout the 2019 regular season.
With all due respect, it isn't about conspiracies. It is about forced contrition in the face of clear evidence. It comes off as arrogance and feeds the notion that it is a mask for denial/guilt. If they've come clean, that isn't necessary. Attitude and body language matter more than dismissive responses like yours.
The reason to come clean is you’ve been given immunity. Not integrity. I could see risking your immunity to not tarnish a future season you won in. But when you lost...
Let it go, man. You're arguing with people who are invested in a conspiracy theory. The Commissioner's report is bad enough, but it is factual. The conspiracy theories don't depend on facts, and you can't defeat them with facts. By the way, here's another fact: MLB put in-person monitors in video rooms during the 2018 playoffs and throughout the 2019 regular season.
With all due respect, it isn't about conspiracies. It is about forced contrition in the face of clear evidence. It comes off as arrogance and feeds the notion that it is a mask for denial/guilt. If they've come clean, that isn't necessary. Attitude and body language matter more than dismissive responses like yours.
Don't even try.
There are 2 Astros fans in here. I'll let you guess who they are.
For some reason, they don't want to discuss about their "facts" in r/Astros.
I'm asking how does a cheater clear another cheater's name. Simple question.
A cheater can clear another persons name, ie the potential non cheater, by telling the truth or having someone else confirm (ie Fiers can confirm this). Which is what Correra attempted to do. Simple answer.
LongBeachPoly wrote:
I'll make you a deal, I'll ask Crane and you ask Correa. Deal?
Deal. You’re up first.
Last edited by Dreamshake on Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 22 Mar 2003 Posts: 3264 Location: so many places
Posted: Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:08 pm Post subject:
LongBeachPoly wrote:
strong9 wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Dreamshake wrote:
The reason to come clean is you’ve been given immunity. Not integrity. I could see risking your immunity to not tarnish a future season you won in. But when you lost...
Let it go, man. You're arguing with people who are invested in a conspiracy theory. The Commissioner's report is bad enough, but it is factual. The conspiracy theories don't depend on facts, and you can't defeat them with facts. By the way, here's another fact: MLB put in-person monitors in video rooms during the 2018 playoffs and throughout the 2019 regular season.
With all due respect, it isn't about conspiracies. It is about forced contrition in the face of clear evidence. It comes off as arrogance and feeds the notion that it is a mask for denial/guilt. If they've come clean, that isn't necessary. Attitude and body language matter more than dismissive responses like yours.
Don't even try.
There are 2 Astros fans in here. I'll let you guess who they are.
For some reason, they don't want to discuss about their "facts" in r/Astros.
Nah I get it. Everyone needs to hide behind that type of attitude. Better than accepting their fandom will henceforth be affiliated with cheating and disrepute.
I'm asking how does a cheater clear another cheater's name. Simple question.
A cheater can clear another persons name, ie the potential non cheater, by telling the truth or having someone else confirm (ie Fiers can confirm this). Which is what Correra attempted to do. Simple answer.
ic.
Well, we know that Fiers can clear someone cuz he's the whistleblower.
Let's see if Correa can actually clear Altuve. If you're right, Altuve's name will get cleared soon due to Correa's proclamation that he's clean.
Let's give it a week to see if Correa actually is able to clear Altuve's name.
I'm asking how does a cheater clear another cheater's name. Simple question.
A cheater can clear another persons name, ie the potential non cheater, by telling the truth or having someone else confirm (ie Fiers can confirm this). Which is what Correra attempted to do. Simple answer.
LongBeachPoly wrote:
I'll make you a deal, I'll ask Crane and you ask Correa. Deal?
Deal. You’re up first.
Nah, it doesn't have to be mutually exclusive. I'll work on my end getting a hold of Crane to ask him while you work on your end asking Correa how a cheater actually clears another cheater's name.
Your conversation is probably more interesting. He probably has some good anecdotes like how Bonds is able to clear Clemens, or something like that.
McGwire putting in a good word for Palmeiro and Sosa...
Is this like putting ex-cons on your resume recommendations list?
Last edited by LongBeachPoly on Sat Feb 15, 2020 4:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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