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1995Lakers
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 Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2024 7:54 am Post subject: |
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| I knew Djokovic was the best back in 2014 and 2015 when Federer threw the kitchen sink at Djokovic at Wimbledon, and still lost. It was obvious to me, being a Fed fan that even at Wimbledon (which was Fed's best slam), Djokovic was slightly better. But the tides towards Djokovic superiority over Federer really started to take shape at US Open 2011 when he proved that his win over Federer the year prior was no fluke in almost exactly the same heartcrushing manner at match point. |
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LongBeachPoly
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2024 11:03 am Post subject: |
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^
I can’t believe Federer has no argument in the GOAT conversation now.
For the longest time, he was well ahead in the conversation. |
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defense
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2024 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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Haven't cared about the men since Agassi and Sampras.
LETS GO COCO! |
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1995Lakers
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2024 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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| LongBeachPoly wrote: | ^
I can’t believe Federer has no argument in the GOAT conversation now.
For the longest time, he was well ahead in the conversation. |
Until 2010, Federer was the Goat. When Djokovic improved his serve and forehand, however it became Djokovic. But I still consider Federer #2. Once he fixed his backhand with the bigger racket, Nadal couldn't beat Federer anywhere other than clay. Slow Hard court, Fast Hard Court, Grass....didnt matter.....Federer would and did beat Nadal on all the surfaces starting from 2017 when he further developed the beautiful one-handed backhand - even if that one-handed backhand is the true reason Federer cant beat Djokovic. Its inherent instability is the reason Fed cant beat Djokovic....the one exception being the one-handed backhander Wawrinka who could get away with it because while an inferior player to Fed, Wawrinka has the one thing that Federer doesn't to bother Djokovic - innate power to bully him around the court.
When I think of Djokovic vs Federer, I think of Kobe vs Lebron. Kobe like Federer has the beautiful game and when on top of their games, Kobe like Federer has the higher ceiling in any given game. But play enough games, and the better player becomes apparent due to math/efficiency. Their age gaps are nearly similar as well and when going against the other, I always believed the Federer had the edge over Djokovic at first, same as Kobe over Lebron. But as the younger player aged and gained experience, that mental edge was gone. Another similarity, Federer, like Kobe loves to use variety using his diverse skillset whereas Djokovic, like Lebron tends to focus on what he is good at over and over again. |
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DuncanIdaho
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2024 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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| 1995Lakers wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | ^
I can’t believe Federer has no argument in the GOAT conversation now.
For the longest time, he was well ahead in the conversation. |
Until 2010, Federer was the Goat. When Djokovic improved his serve and forehand, however it became Djokovic. But I still consider Federer #2. Once he fixed his backhand with the bigger racket, Nadal couldn't beat Federer anywhere other than clay. Slow Hard court, Fast Hard Court, Grass....didnt matter.....Federer would and did beat Nadal on all the surfaces starting from 2017 when he further developed the beautiful one-handed backhand - even if that one-handed backhand is the true reason Federer cant beat Djokovic. Its inherent instability is the reason Fed cant beat Djokovic....the one exception being the one-handed backhander Wawrinka who could get away with it because while an inferior player to Fed, Wawrinka has the one thing that Federer doesn't to bother Djokovic - innate power to bully him around the court.
When I think of Djokovic vs Federer, I think of Kobe vs Lebron. Kobe like Federer has the beautiful game and when on top of their games, Kobe like Federer has the higher ceiling in any given game. But play enough games, and the better player becomes apparent due to math/efficiency. Their age gaps are nearly similar as well and when going against the other, I always believed the Federer had the edge over Djokovic at first, same as Kobe over Lebron. But as the younger player aged and gained experience, that mental edge was gone. Another similarity, Federer, like Kobe loves to use variety using his diverse skillset whereas Djokovic, like Lebron tends to focus on what he is good at over and over again. |
This is a good overview/comparison and how I have them ranked too: Djokovic, Federer, Nadal. And the main reason Fed didn't have even more victories over Nadal after 2017 was because he was always in Djokovic's half of the draw. When Djokovoic was out for that year, Fed put it to Nadal, going 4-0, and in 2019 Nadal only beat him at the French.
I will say though that if aliens landed and told us we had to pick one player and venue in a match to save the world, I'm picking prime Nadal on Philippe Chatrier court.  |
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ChickenStu
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2024 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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| defense wrote: | Haven't cared about the men since Agassi and Sampras.
LETS GO COCO! |
While I will never be as into men's tennis as I was when Agassi was playing (he's my favorite athlete of all time), I still think the men's game is far more watchable and enjoyable than the women's game right now, particularly with the void of Serena's retirement, Osaka having gone on mental walkabout, and Barty's retirement. Women's tennis just seems like it's at a lull right now. Of the 8 women who made the final 16 in the top half of the draw, I had never heard of 6 of them. And while I may not be an absolute diehard follower of the WTA Tour, I'm about as big of a sports fan as you're going to find. To me, that's kind of telling. I watched Gauff vs. Kostyuk last night, and the quality of tennis was absolutely terrible from both of them. Gauff is #4 in the world! (Her forehand is really poor for such a top player.) I couldn't help but think that Serena, in her prime, would wipe the floor with these top players now. Heck, prime Justine Henin would, too. I thought human beings were supposed to evolve lol. |
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1995Lakers
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2024 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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| DuncanIdaho wrote: | | 1995Lakers wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | ^
I can’t believe Federer has no argument in the GOAT conversation now.
For the longest time, he was well ahead in the conversation. |
Until 2010, Federer was the Goat. When Djokovic improved his serve and forehand, however it became Djokovic. But I still consider Federer #2. Once he fixed his backhand with the bigger racket, Nadal couldn't beat Federer anywhere other than clay. Slow Hard court, Fast Hard Court, Grass....didnt matter.....Federer would and did beat Nadal on all the surfaces starting from 2017 when he further developed the beautiful one-handed backhand - even if that one-handed backhand is the true reason Federer cant beat Djokovic. Its inherent instability is the reason Fed cant beat Djokovic....the one exception being the one-handed backhander Wawrinka who could get away with it because while an inferior player to Fed, Wawrinka has the one thing that Federer doesn't to bother Djokovic - innate power to bully him around the court.
When I think of Djokovic vs Federer, I think of Kobe vs Lebron. Kobe like Federer has the beautiful game and when on top of their games, Kobe like Federer has the higher ceiling in any given game. But play enough games, and the better player becomes apparent due to math/efficiency. Their age gaps are nearly similar as well and when going against the other, I always believed the Federer had the edge over Djokovic at first, same as Kobe over Lebron. But as the younger player aged and gained experience, that mental edge was gone. Another similarity, Federer, like Kobe loves to use variety using his diverse skillset whereas Djokovic, like Lebron tends to focus on what he is good at over and over again. |
This is a good overview/comparison and how I have them ranked too: Djokovic, Federer, Nadal. And the main reason Fed didn't have even more victories over Nadal after 2017 was because he was always in Djokovic's half of the draw. When Djokovoic was out for that year, Fed put it to Nadal, going 4-0, and in 2019 Nadal only beat him at the French.
I will say though that if aliens landed and told us we had to pick one player and venue in a match to save the world, I'm picking prime Nadal on Philippe Chatrier court. |
Oh yea...Nadal on Phillipe Chatrier.....even peak Federer in 06 or 07 could not take it to even a 5th set against Nadal there. If Nadal is in any sort of good condition, even peak Djokovic stands very little chance of beating Nadal on that court. The gap between Fed at Wimbledon and Nadal at Chatrier is like the difference between the 2009 65 win Lakers vs 1996 72 win Bulls. Those 09 Lakers were really really good but those 72 win Bulls made you feel like you had no chance when they actually tried as the 64 win Supersonics and 60 win Orlando Magic found out. The 1996 conference finals beatdown of Orlando was the worst beating Ive ever seen a 60 win team ever take - making them look almost amateurish, especially Nick Anderson and Dennis Scott unable to even dribble to halfcourt and with only Penny Hardaway able to have any semblance of a good series against them. That would be like the 2008 French Open of Fed vs Nadal. |
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LongBeachPoly
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2024 6:50 am Post subject: |
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Wow
Zverev beat Alcaraz in the QF.
Yeah, Alcaraz might not be ready to dethrone Djokovic yet. I thought when he was able to beat Djokovic at Wimbledone that he was ready but it doesn’t look like it.
Djokovic’s on pace to win his 11th at the AO.
11/11 |
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focus
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2024 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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I liken Djokovic more to Kobe than Lebron, though the longevity greatness aspect is definitely like Lebron, rather than Kobe, MJ.
Djokovic is the most complete player in history, and he worked at everything incessantly to make it so. Kobe did the same and was a complete player in his skills. Kobe was obsessed with tweaking every aspect of his career and parts of his life to win, Djokovic definitely same. Djokovic was inspired by Kobe in this and other ways, and took his advice apparently. Kobe was unpopular, disliked by large segments for much of his career, Djokovic same through today. Finally, the mindset is the biggest similarity I see, total commitment to winning, competitive dominance, and clutch performance. That MJ also had.
Unlike Kobe though, Djokovic is the undisputed GOAT and MJ is considered the same by most. I feel like MJ and Federer share the artistic flair that I did not quite see in Kobe or Djokovic to the same constant extent. They both had it, but what showed up more is the beauty of great fundamentals, brilliant footwork, positioning, and plenty more rather than something comparable to Mozart, Da Vinci that makes your heart sing in the moment. So I think Kobe is the closest hoops equivalent to Djokovic, but not a complete match.
I do not see the equivalent of MJ in tennis where the pure winning top prizes, sense of flair/beauty in performance, fully complete developed game and utter clutchness ever happened. Djokovic like I said doesn't encompass the second one, Federer the last two. Nadal lacked the beauty/artistry component and both he and Federer are not the GOATs of their sport. (I think that Nadal does, now, have a complete game, including a great volley and a developed backhand both miles and miles away from what he had early in his career. His serve is good but not a weapon like others).
Alcaraz has a shot but it's not going to be done by performances like today and at the US Open. Still only 20. Tons of time. Federer's first slam was at Wimbledon when he was almost 22. GOAT Djoker had one at 20, but didnt get 2nd until 23 or 22. Alcaraz has two already, one over the GOAT. Mahomes-ian trajectory possible. Both Federer and Djokovic went on a tear. Rafa's tear was likely basically prevented by Djokovic's tear. |
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focus
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2024 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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| LongBeachPoly wrote: | Wow
Zverev beat Alcaraz in the QF.
Yeah, Alcaraz might not be ready to dethrone Djokovic yet. I thought when he was able to beat Djokovic at Wimbledone that he was ready but it doesn’t look like it.
Djokovic’s on pace to win his 11th at the AO.
11/11 |
Thinking Sinner can stop him with power, aggressiveness and positive mindset in critical moments. |
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ChickenStu
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2024 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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| focus wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | Wow
Zverev beat Alcaraz in the QF.
Yeah, Alcaraz might not be ready to dethrone Djokovic yet. I thought when he was able to beat Djokovic at Wimbledone that he was ready but it doesn’t look like it.
Djokovic’s on pace to win his 11th at the AO.
11/11 |
Thinking Sinner can stop him with power, aggressiveness and positive mindset in critical moments. |
I don't think Novak has looked his best at this tournament so far. I'm thinking he's vulnerable too, and Sinner has beaten him in 2 of their past 3 meetings. That said, best-of-5 is a different beast. |
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focus
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2024 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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| ChickenStu wrote: | | focus wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | Wow
Zverev beat Alcaraz in the QF.
Yeah, Alcaraz might not be ready to dethrone Djokovic yet. I thought when he was able to beat Djokovic at Wimbledone that he was ready but it doesn’t look like it.
Djokovic’s on pace to win his 11th at the AO.
11/11 |
Thinking Sinner can stop him with power, aggressiveness and positive mindset in critical moments. |
I don't think Novak has looked his best at this tournament so far. I'm thinking he's vulnerable too, and Sinner has beaten him in 2 of their past 3 meetings. That said, best-of-5 is a different beast. |
Totally true, but Davis Cup was huge to Djokovic and Sinner took it from him and Serbia. Djokovic wanted that and played well. And lost. Might happen. |
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ChickenStu
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2024 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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| focus wrote: | | ChickenStu wrote: | | focus wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | Wow
Zverev beat Alcaraz in the QF.
Yeah, Alcaraz might not be ready to dethrone Djokovic yet. I thought when he was able to beat Djokovic at Wimbledone that he was ready but it doesn’t look like it.
Djokovic’s on pace to win his 11th at the AO.
11/11 |
Thinking Sinner can stop him with power, aggressiveness and positive mindset in critical moments. |
I don't think Novak has looked his best at this tournament so far. I'm thinking he's vulnerable too, and Sinner has beaten him in 2 of their past 3 meetings. That said, best-of-5 is a different beast. |
Totally true, but Davis Cup was huge to Djokovic and Sinner took it from him and Serbia. Djokovic wanted that and played well. And lost. Might happen. |
Djoker is a -220 favorite to win on Bovada. Medvedev is a smaller favorite over Zverev, at -155.
Meanwhile, Sabalenka is a -210 favorite over Gauff, and Zheng is -200 over Yastremska. |
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DuncanIdaho
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2024 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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| focus wrote: | | ChickenStu wrote: | | focus wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | Wow
Zverev beat Alcaraz in the QF.
Yeah, Alcaraz might not be ready to dethrone Djokovic yet. I thought when he was able to beat Djokovic at Wimbledone that he was ready but it doesn’t look like it.
Djokovic’s on pace to win his 11th at the AO.
11/11 |
Thinking Sinner can stop him with power, aggressiveness and positive mindset in critical moments. |
I don't think Novak has looked his best at this tournament so far. I'm thinking he's vulnerable too, and Sinner has beaten him in 2 of their past 3 meetings. That said, best-of-5 is a different beast. |
Totally true, but Davis Cup was huge to Djokovic and Sinner took it from him and Serbia. Djokovic wanted that and played well. And lost. Might happen. |
For whatever reason, Djokovic always falls short when he's playing for Serbia, be it the Davis Cup or the Olympics. |
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focus
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Joined: 23 May 2012
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2024 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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| DuncanIdaho wrote: | | focus wrote: | | ChickenStu wrote: | | focus wrote: | | LongBeachPoly wrote: | Wow
Zverev beat Alcaraz in the QF.
Yeah, Alcaraz might not be ready to dethrone Djokovic yet. I thought when he was able to beat Djokovic at Wimbledone that he was ready but it doesn’t look like it.
Djokovic’s on pace to win his 11th at the AO.
11/11 |
Thinking Sinner can stop him with power, aggressiveness and positive mindset in critical moments. |
I don't think Novak has looked his best at this tournament so far. I'm thinking he's vulnerable too, and Sinner has beaten him in 2 of their past 3 meetings. That said, best-of-5 is a different beast. |
Totally true, but Davis Cup was huge to Djokovic and Sinner took it from him and Serbia. Djokovic wanted that and played well. And lost. Might happen. |
For whatever reason, Djokovic always falls short when he's playing for Serbia, be it the Davis Cup or the Olympics. |
Well one time he lost to Del Potro in the Olympics. Was a brilliant match and Delpo earned it. Could not blame him for that one. The last one was disastrous in every way, and tarnished his legacy. Didn't even medal. Was held in 2021 when he was almost won the Grand Slam so he was the best. Very bad Olympics in that context. I think it is the country pressure aspect. |
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ChickenStu
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| Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2024 2:51 am Post subject: |
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Just watched a pretty entertaining semifinal where Sabalenka beat Gauff in two competitive straight sets, 7-6 6-4. Sabalenka came out firing but faltered late in the 1st and it appeared that Gauff was going to steal it, having broken when Sabalenka served for it and then Coco broke her again at 5-5. But Sabalenka showed some fight and broke back when Gauff was up 30-love, and then she won 5 of the first 6 points in the breaker before closing it out 7-2. Serving at 77% on 1st serves in the 1st set, Sabalenka kept that up in the 2nd set and didn't face a break point. Gauff held steady, though she was under a bit more pressure, saving the first 4 break chances that Sabalenka had. But then at 4-4, Sabalenka broke through and she was able to close it out in a deuce game to win it. The quality of the tennis was much better than their US Open final, and Sabalenka is going to be an enormous favorite against whomever she faces in the final.
I did notice that Gauff was able to hit her forehand tonight with much more pace, perhaps actually liking Sabalenka's pace and finding it easier to hit like that when provided with pace. However, there were some times where she resorted to the slow, loopy forehand, and there was a big point at 30-15, 6-5 in the 1st set where Gauff missed a short ball forehand really badly where she kind of decelerated and didn't go after it. She reached 125 MPH on a serve tonight, so she clearly can go really big with it. The second serve is still a bit of a problem, particularly when facing an aggressive returner like Sabalenka, but Gauff isn't going anywhere (barring injury) for the next 10 years on the WTA because of that 1st serve, the backhand, and the exceptional moving.
As for Sabalenka, if she can show the mental toughness she did tonight, she should win a few more majors in her career. Not too shabby. |
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ChickenStu
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| Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2024 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Djoker looked awful in the first set, dropping it 1-6 to Sinner. Can he turn it around? |
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focus
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| Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2024 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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| what the...? |
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ChickenStu
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| Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2024 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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He's getting totally outclassed today. And Sinner hasn't had to do anything special, he's not redlining or anything. Just far more solid of a player today, Sinner has been. Haven't seen Djokovic look this poor in years. Perhaps it's just the effect of having played several long matches already in this event, perhaps it's playing in the daytime two matches in a row and it's taking a toll on him at 36, or...perhaps this is the beginning of a slippage of skills at his age.
Again, no one thought Serena's last major win would actually be her last. You just never know if this will be the case for the Djoker. |
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focus
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| Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2024 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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| What the..? the other way |
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ChickenStu
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| Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2024 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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| focus wrote: | | What the..? the other way |
Not so fast, my friend!
Djoker showed some heart in that third set, still clearly getting outplayed but gutted out some holds to get it to the breaker, and then finally, Sinner's level dropped. Now, can the kid put it behind him and resume being the better player, or will some nerves kick in for the rest of this thing? |
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focus
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| Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2024 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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| ChickenStu wrote: | | focus wrote: | | What the..? the other way |
Not so fast, my friend!
Djoker showed some heart in that third set, still clearly getting outplayed but gutted out some holds to get it to the breaker, and then finally, Sinner's level dropped. Now, can the kid put it behind him and resume being the better player, or will some nerves kick in for the rest of this thing? |
Just hoping for a top level match from both at this point. Stats showed so many errors for Djokovic. Bad day maybe? His tiebreak was more mentally impressive than a sign he found his game. I still think Sinner wins in 4 as the better player if Djokovic didn't actually find his level. |
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ChickenStu
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| Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2024 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Yeah, Djoker has just been off all day. Sinner still has not faced a break point. The Italian leads 4-1 in the 4th. |
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ChickenStu
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| Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2024 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Sinner closes it out! Never faced a break point. Novak wasn't on, but still, that's remarkably impressive. |
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DuncanIdaho
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| Posted: Thu Jan 25, 2024 11:45 pm Post subject: |
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| That was maybe the worst grand slam match Novak played in 15 years, but Sinner earned it too |
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