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Star Player
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 Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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| RG73 wrote: | | Except they'll have better support players around their free agent star. |
I don't think that's true, when both teams are at full health.
| Quote: | | You assume that the injuries are random versus not using the latest and greatest training science and monitoring available. The preventative science does exist, but we won't know if it will have an effect unless the team actually spends in that area. |
That's a pretty big leap to make. Not using the latest and greatest science and monitoring is to blame for a rolled ankle or strained groin? I'd love to know the "science" behind that conclusion. |
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| Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | Username wrote: | | KBH wrote: | | Username wrote: | | pjiddy wrote: | | Username wrote: | | SGV-Laker fan wrote: | hate to say this, and putting my flame suit on, personally i think the Clippers have a brighter future than the Lakers.
deep pocket owner who is hands off and willing to hire the best to run team
moving into new Inglewood arena near the new Rams stadium, that'll be the new center of the LA sport scene
free agents want the Clippers because they can get best of both worlds: big LA market but without the drama of being a Laker |
How many times have we heard this over the decades. Clippers are going to overtake the Lakers... seems it pops up every few years. Even when the Clippers were a perennial contender with Lob City and we sucked, it was still a Lakers town. It is and will always be. |
If you're valuing something as inconsequential as "whose town it is," sure. But which organization is putting a better team on the floor, year after year?
Clippers: 8 straight seasons OVER .500 (and counting)
Lakers: 6 straight seasons UNDER .500 (and counting)
Clippers: 7 playoff appearances in last 8 years
Lakers: 6 straight seasons in lottery.
Last time the Lakers had a better record than the Clippers: 2011-12 (7 years ago)
But hey, seeing more Laker merch than Clipper merch >>>>>> watching a better oncourt product. |
I don't disagree, but what has that Clippers success gotten them? They're in a position now where they're basically where we were last year - trying to clear space to lure a star.
We already did that.
Now granted, the road to clearing that cap space didn't work out as well as it has for the Clippers, but I'm not even sure they expected this season to go like it has. The trade for Tobias Harris was a pretty clear waiving of the white flag, but Lou and Gallinari started playing out of their minds and here we are.
They've got a better coach, better role players, and haven't had to deal with the insane injuries we have.
It's easy to get caught up on the dismal failure of this season, but here are the facts: we still have LeBron James, we still have some talented young players, we still have a lot of money and we have a likely lottery pick. I'm not so sure the Clippers future is all that much brighter. Hell, there's rumors that their coach might leave to come here. That tells you all you need to know. |
Where they are now is a playoff team that isn't as thirsty for stars because they can play without said stars. They're also led by an executive with a proven track record of success and a proven coach. And the fact that people are talking about Doc leaving the Clips for us says nothing more than Lakers entitlement. |
Isn't as thirsty for stars? The whole reason for their trade was to clear space to chase stars this summer. They're a great story and playing well, but a team led by Lou Williams and Danilo Gallinari has a ceiling and they've hit that ceiling. |
If you're a top FA, you see:
1. Team A: nice role players, playoff team, proven coach, well-run organization, chance to team up with a 2nd all star FA.
2. Team B: dysfunctional FO, likely new coach, unproven role players (none have been in playoffs), aging LBJ. |
Most of those "nice role players" beyond SGA, Shamet and Lou aren't under contract beyond this season and despite how insane he's playing right now, I have no doubt they'd love to get out from under that $22 million they owe Gallinari. Either way, he's an expiring contract next year, so he's not going to be around much longer.
They are playing out of their minds, but they're not some budding contender that just needs a star or two to get them over the top. They're going to come back to earth eventually. They don't have anything even remotely resembling a franchise player on their roster. Their plan is clear as day, and it's centered entirely around acquiring a star. |
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KBH
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Posts: 12171
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| Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Username wrote: | | KBH wrote: | | Username wrote: | | KBH wrote: | | Username wrote: | | pjiddy wrote: | | Username wrote: | | SGV-Laker fan wrote: | hate to say this, and putting my flame suit on, personally i think the Clippers have a brighter future than the Lakers.
deep pocket owner who is hands off and willing to hire the best to run team
moving into new Inglewood arena near the new Rams stadium, that'll be the new center of the LA sport scene
free agents want the Clippers because they can get best of both worlds: big LA market but without the drama of being a Laker |
How many times have we heard this over the decades. Clippers are going to overtake the Lakers... seems it pops up every few years. Even when the Clippers were a perennial contender with Lob City and we sucked, it was still a Lakers town. It is and will always be. |
If you're valuing something as inconsequential as "whose town it is," sure. But which organization is putting a better team on the floor, year after year?
Clippers: 8 straight seasons OVER .500 (and counting)
Lakers: 6 straight seasons UNDER .500 (and counting)
Clippers: 7 playoff appearances in last 8 years
Lakers: 6 straight seasons in lottery.
Last time the Lakers had a better record than the Clippers: 2011-12 (7 years ago)
But hey, seeing more Laker merch than Clipper merch >>>>>> watching a better oncourt product. |
I don't disagree, but what has that Clippers success gotten them? They're in a position now where they're basically where we were last year - trying to clear space to lure a star.
We already did that.
Now granted, the road to clearing that cap space didn't work out as well as it has for the Clippers, but I'm not even sure they expected this season to go like it has. The trade for Tobias Harris was a pretty clear waiving of the white flag, but Lou and Gallinari started playing out of their minds and here we are.
They've got a better coach, better role players, and haven't had to deal with the insane injuries we have.
It's easy to get caught up on the dismal failure of this season, but here are the facts: we still have LeBron James, we still have some talented young players, we still have a lot of money and we have a likely lottery pick. I'm not so sure the Clippers future is all that much brighter. Hell, there's rumors that their coach might leave to come here. That tells you all you need to know. |
Where they are now is a playoff team that isn't as thirsty for stars because they can play without said stars. They're also led by an executive with a proven track record of success and a proven coach. And the fact that people are talking about Doc leaving the Clips for us says nothing more than Lakers entitlement. |
Isn't as thirsty for stars? The whole reason for their trade was to clear space to chase stars this summer. They're a great story and playing well, but a team led by Lou Williams and Danilo Gallinari has a ceiling and they've hit that ceiling. |
Who NEEDS to get stars more right now? The Lakers or the Clippers? Pursuit and blatant thirst are not the same thing. |
The Clippers need stars more. It might be hard to fathom now since they're headed to the playoffs and we're not, but again, their roster is limited. It has a ceiling, and they're going to hit that soon. They desperately need starpower to get to the next level.
We do too, but don't forget - as a healthy team we were No. 4 in the West and pounding the Warriors at home. Clippers are firing on all cylinders right now, like we were starting to around Christmas before it all fell apart. |
The Clippers have already managed to turn over their roster without missing a beat as far as making the playoffs. They have a team that is enjoyable to watch and has a track record of recent success despite rebuilding. The Lakers, meanwhile, haven't had a winning record in six years and are led by people whose entire team building ethos revolves around chasing star power.
If you think the Clippers are more thirsty for stars the Lakers, then you haven't been listening to Magic, Jeanie or LeBron. Speaking of LeBron, the Lakers can't even make the playoffs after literally signing the biggest star. And it's a good thing you mentioned the injuries because it only helps my point. The Lakers will be missing the playoffs partly because their best player missed 18 games due to injury. The Clippers are rolling into the playoffs despite trading their best player midseason. If that doesn't answer "what has it gotten them?" in terms of how these teams are positioned, nothing does.
The better question is what has bringing in Magic and signing LeBron gotten the Lakers?
Last edited by KBH on Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:35 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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yinoma2001
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Joined: 19 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Most of those "nice role players" beyond SGA, Shamet and Lou aren't under contract beyond this season and despite how insane he's playing right now, I have no doubt they'd love to get out from under that $22 million they owe Gallinari. Either way, he's an expiring contract next year, so he's not going to be around much longer.
They are playing out of their minds, but they're not some budding contender that just needs a star or two to get them over the top. They're going to come back to earth eventually. They don't have anything even remotely resembling a franchise player on their roster. Their plan is clear as day, and it's centered entirely around acquiring a star. |
They have Montrez, Lou, SGA, Shamet, Zub. They're key cogs on the team and can be back to join 2 max FAs. They'll be in the playoffs while LBJ is filming Space Jam 2.
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KBH
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Joined: 13 Sep 2008
Posts: 12171
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| Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Username wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Username wrote: | | KBH wrote: | | Username wrote: | | pjiddy wrote: | | Username wrote: | | SGV-Laker fan wrote: | hate to say this, and putting my flame suit on, personally i think the Clippers have a brighter future than the Lakers.
deep pocket owner who is hands off and willing to hire the best to run team
moving into new Inglewood arena near the new Rams stadium, that'll be the new center of the LA sport scene
free agents want the Clippers because they can get best of both worlds: big LA market but without the drama of being a Laker |
How many times have we heard this over the decades. Clippers are going to overtake the Lakers... seems it pops up every few years. Even when the Clippers were a perennial contender with Lob City and we sucked, it was still a Lakers town. It is and will always be. |
If you're valuing something as inconsequential as "whose town it is," sure. But which organization is putting a better team on the floor, year after year?
Clippers: 8 straight seasons OVER .500 (and counting)
Lakers: 6 straight seasons UNDER .500 (and counting)
Clippers: 7 playoff appearances in last 8 years
Lakers: 6 straight seasons in lottery.
Last time the Lakers had a better record than the Clippers: 2011-12 (7 years ago)
But hey, seeing more Laker merch than Clipper merch >>>>>> watching a better oncourt product. |
I don't disagree, but what has that Clippers success gotten them? They're in a position now where they're basically where we were last year - trying to clear space to lure a star.
We already did that.
Now granted, the road to clearing that cap space didn't work out as well as it has for the Clippers, but I'm not even sure they expected this season to go like it has. The trade for Tobias Harris was a pretty clear waiving of the white flag, but Lou and Gallinari started playing out of their minds and here we are.
They've got a better coach, better role players, and haven't had to deal with the insane injuries we have.
It's easy to get caught up on the dismal failure of this season, but here are the facts: we still have LeBron James, we still have some talented young players, we still have a lot of money and we have a likely lottery pick. I'm not so sure the Clippers future is all that much brighter. Hell, there's rumors that their coach might leave to come here. That tells you all you need to know. |
Where they are now is a playoff team that isn't as thirsty for stars because they can play without said stars. They're also led by an executive with a proven track record of success and a proven coach. And the fact that people are talking about Doc leaving the Clips for us says nothing more than Lakers entitlement. |
Isn't as thirsty for stars? The whole reason for their trade was to clear space to chase stars this summer. They're a great story and playing well, but a team led by Lou Williams and Danilo Gallinari has a ceiling and they've hit that ceiling. |
If you're a top FA, you see:
1. Team A: nice role players, playoff team, proven coach, well-run organization, chance to team up with a 2nd all star FA.
2. Team B: dysfunctional FO, likely new coach, unproven role players (none have been in playoffs), aging LBJ. |
Most of those "nice role players" beyond SGA, Shamet and Lou aren't under contract beyond this season and despite how insane he's playing right now, I have no doubt they'd love to get out from under that $22 million they owe Gallinari. Either way, he's an expiring contract next year, so he's not going to be around much longer.
They are playing out of their minds, but they're not some budding contender that just needs a star or two to get them over the top. They're going to come back to earth eventually. They don't have anything even remotely resembling a franchise player on their roster. Their plan is clear as day, and it's centered entirely around acquiring a star. |
Of course it is. The difference between the Lakers and the Clippers is they have a team they know can compete without signing the stars. They'll also have roster and head coaching continuity if they don't sign the stars. They'll have an organization with a unified vision led by the league's best executive and one of its best coaches.
The Lakers are firing their head coach, possibly trading members of their young core, and there's whispers of front office changes (Pelinka). The Lakers need a guy to come in and save them to shift the on-court product and narrative and it's easy to see. The Clippers can sell one or two guys
on simply being missing pieces. Not dissimilar to when we had a bunch of "nice" guys and sold Shaq on being the missing piece in 1996. One of these situations is much more attractive than the other. |
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yinoma2001
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Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 119487
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| Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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Lakers will always win the brand war for LA.
But in actually winning playoff games, it's no longer only Lakers. Clips have actually killed us this decade in that respect, even when they have no banners to hang. They finally are set to go for it all.
The crazy thing is we got LBJ, a top 3 player from last year, and the team is somehow doing worse than the 2017-18 squad.
That's b/c of organizational ineptness.
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From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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RG73
Franchise Player
Joined: 14 Jul 2001
Posts: 11508
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| Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Username wrote: | | RG73 wrote: | | Except they'll have better support players around their free agent star. |
I don't think that's true, when both teams are at full health.
| Quote: | | You assume that the injuries are random versus not using the latest and greatest training science and monitoring available. The preventative science does exist, but we won't know if it will have an effect unless the team actually spends in that area. |
That's a pretty big leap to make. Not using the latest and greatest science and monitoring is to blame for a rolled ankle or strained groin? I'd love to know the "science" behind that conclusion. |
Firstly, you don't know if the Lakers will be at full health given BI's present status. We hope so, but he may not ever play again. And if he can play, we don't know if they'll try to ship off all the kids again. But given Magic and Pelinka's track record in non-star signings and trades, the edge goes to West and Frank, who will already have some solid players on the roster going into free agency.
As to how better training and monitoring can prevent injuries--really? Ok, structural imbalances can lead to inefficient movement and mechanics, which can put one into positions more likely to stress joints. Poor recovery regimes or not strengthening areas of weakness can lead to micro traumas to become macro traumas. Any decent trainer can watch someone in movement and pick apart areas where they are structurally unsound. None of this is rocket science. You can watch how someone jumps and lands and have a good sense if they're going to be prone to things like ankle inversion on landings. And you can actually work people in those uncomfortable positions and train them to land better under controlled conditions. None of this takes into account all sorts of wearable equipment now that collects all sorts of data that trainers can use to optimize performance and movement. I mean I have access to this level of coaching at my gym and I don't have $400 million in annual revenue. Injuries are often preventable--the Phoenix Suns pioneered that in the 7 seconds era before they also became a dysfunctional franchise. Yeah, if you load a joint violently in a direction it isn't supposed to go, something will break, but you can always push mobility, push resilience and coach awareness to minimize these things. And lets not forget our recovery times suck--and that is ignoring the obvious idiocy of Lakers PR vs medical reality. Our players rarely, if ever, beat standard projections for recovery. Again, training, nutrition, wearable monitors and analytics, PT staff.....the investment needs to be made. |
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KBH
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Joined: 13 Sep 2008
Posts: 12171
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| Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | Lakers will always win the brand war for LA.
But in actually winning playoff games, it's no longer only Lakers. Clips have actually killed us this decade in that respect, even when they have no banners to hang. They finally are set to go for it all.
The crazy thing is we got LBJ, a top 3 player from last year, and the team is somehow doing worse than the 2017-18 squad.
That's b/c of organizational ineptness. |
Nothing speaks more to the arrogance of the Lakers and fan base than the "What has it gotten them?" argument in regard to the Clippers. As if being a consistent playoff team has no inherent value relative to 20 win seasons. The Lakers used to be led by people who valued the process and struck strategically. Now we're hoping to win the lottery. |
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Username
Star Player
Joined: 22 Apr 2004
Posts: 4718
Location: Out There
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| Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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| KBH wrote: | | Username wrote: | | KBH wrote: | | Username wrote: | | KBH wrote: | | Username wrote: | | pjiddy wrote: | | Username wrote: | | SGV-Laker fan wrote: | hate to say this, and putting my flame suit on, personally i think the Clippers have a brighter future than the Lakers.
deep pocket owner who is hands off and willing to hire the best to run team
moving into new Inglewood arena near the new Rams stadium, that'll be the new center of the LA sport scene
free agents want the Clippers because they can get best of both worlds: big LA market but without the drama of being a Laker |
How many times have we heard this over the decades. Clippers are going to overtake the Lakers... seems it pops up every few years. Even when the Clippers were a perennial contender with Lob City and we sucked, it was still a Lakers town. It is and will always be. |
If you're valuing something as inconsequential as "whose town it is," sure. But which organization is putting a better team on the floor, year after year?
Clippers: 8 straight seasons OVER .500 (and counting)
Lakers: 6 straight seasons UNDER .500 (and counting)
Clippers: 7 playoff appearances in last 8 years
Lakers: 6 straight seasons in lottery.
Last time the Lakers had a better record than the Clippers: 2011-12 (7 years ago)
But hey, seeing more Laker merch than Clipper merch >>>>>> watching a better oncourt product. |
I don't disagree, but what has that Clippers success gotten them? They're in a position now where they're basically where we were last year - trying to clear space to lure a star.
We already did that.
Now granted, the road to clearing that cap space didn't work out as well as it has for the Clippers, but I'm not even sure they expected this season to go like it has. The trade for Tobias Harris was a pretty clear waiving of the white flag, but Lou and Gallinari started playing out of their minds and here we are.
They've got a better coach, better role players, and haven't had to deal with the insane injuries we have.
It's easy to get caught up on the dismal failure of this season, but here are the facts: we still have LeBron James, we still have some talented young players, we still have a lot of money and we have a likely lottery pick. I'm not so sure the Clippers future is all that much brighter. Hell, there's rumors that their coach might leave to come here. That tells you all you need to know. |
Where they are now is a playoff team that isn't as thirsty for stars because they can play without said stars. They're also led by an executive with a proven track record of success and a proven coach. And the fact that people are talking about Doc leaving the Clips for us says nothing more than Lakers entitlement. |
Isn't as thirsty for stars? The whole reason for their trade was to clear space to chase stars this summer. They're a great story and playing well, but a team led by Lou Williams and Danilo Gallinari has a ceiling and they've hit that ceiling. |
Who NEEDS to get stars more right now? The Lakers or the Clippers? Pursuit and blatant thirst are not the same thing. |
The Clippers need stars more. It might be hard to fathom now since they're headed to the playoffs and we're not, but again, their roster is limited. It has a ceiling, and they're going to hit that soon. They desperately need starpower to get to the next level.
We do too, but don't forget - as a healthy team we were No. 4 in the West and pounding the Warriors at home. Clippers are firing on all cylinders right now, like we were starting to around Christmas before it all fell apart. |
The Clippers have already managed to turn over their roster without missing a beat as far as making the playoffs. They have a team that is enjoyable to watch and has a track record of recent success despite rebuilding. The Lakers, meanwhile, haven't had a winning record in six years and are led by people whose entire team building ethos revolves around chasing star power.
If you think the Clippers are more thirsty for stars the Lakers, then you haven't been listening to Magic, Jeanie or LeBron. Speaking of LeBron, the Lakers can't even make the playoffs after literally signing the biggest star. And it's a good thing you mentioned the injuries because it only helps my point. The Lakers will be missing the playoffs partly because their best player missed 18 games due to injury. The Clippers are rolling into the playoffs despite trading their best player midseason. If that doesn't answer "what has it gotten them?" in terms of how these teams are positioned, nothing does.
The better question is what has bringing in Magic and signing LeBron gotten the Lakers? |
The Clippers lucked into the success of their roster turnover. Their actions speak as loud as Magic’s words. They are in the same business we are, the business of stars. The Tobias trade was a tanking move, and it just so happened that you have guys like Danilo Gallinari at age 30 having the best season of his life, shooting the 3-ball at an insanely high clip unprecedented in his career. Lou Williams at age 32 playing some of the best basketball of his life.
These things make for a great story THIS YEAR, but the reality is these things aren’t sustainable.
Magic made some mistakes in building this roster, but without the injuries this was a playoff team beating the Warriors in GS. I know that doesn't fit the narrative for most of you, but it's a fact. |
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jonnybravo
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Joined: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 30722
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| Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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| KBH wrote: | | Username wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | Username wrote: | | KBH wrote: | | Username wrote: | | pjiddy wrote: | | Username wrote: | | SGV-Laker fan wrote: | hate to say this, and putting my flame suit on, personally i think the Clippers have a brighter future than the Lakers.
deep pocket owner who is hands off and willing to hire the best to run team
moving into new Inglewood arena near the new Rams stadium, that'll be the new center of the LA sport scene
free agents want the Clippers because they can get best of both worlds: big LA market but without the drama of being a Laker |
How many times have we heard this over the decades. Clippers are going to overtake the Lakers... seems it pops up every few years. Even when the Clippers were a perennial contender with Lob City and we sucked, it was still a Lakers town. It is and will always be. |
If you're valuing something as inconsequential as "whose town it is," sure. But which organization is putting a better team on the floor, year after year?
Clippers: 8 straight seasons OVER .500 (and counting)
Lakers: 6 straight seasons UNDER .500 (and counting)
Clippers: 7 playoff appearances in last 8 years
Lakers: 6 straight seasons in lottery.
Last time the Lakers had a better record than the Clippers: 2011-12 (7 years ago)
But hey, seeing more Laker merch than Clipper merch >>>>>> watching a better oncourt product. |
I don't disagree, but what has that Clippers success gotten them? They're in a position now where they're basically where we were last year - trying to clear space to lure a star.
We already did that.
Now granted, the road to clearing that cap space didn't work out as well as it has for the Clippers, but I'm not even sure they expected this season to go like it has. The trade for Tobias Harris was a pretty clear waiving of the white flag, but Lou and Gallinari started playing out of their minds and here we are.
They've got a better coach, better role players, and haven't had to deal with the insane injuries we have.
It's easy to get caught up on the dismal failure of this season, but here are the facts: we still have LeBron James, we still have some talented young players, we still have a lot of money and we have a likely lottery pick. I'm not so sure the Clippers future is all that much brighter. Hell, there's rumors that their coach might leave to come here. That tells you all you need to know. |
Where they are now is a playoff team that isn't as thirsty for stars because they can play without said stars. They're also led by an executive with a proven track record of success and a proven coach. And the fact that people are talking about Doc leaving the Clips for us says nothing more than Lakers entitlement. |
Isn't as thirsty for stars? The whole reason for their trade was to clear space to chase stars this summer. They're a great story and playing well, but a team led by Lou Williams and Danilo Gallinari has a ceiling and they've hit that ceiling. |
If you're a top FA, you see:
1. Team A: nice role players, playoff team, proven coach, well-run organization, chance to team up with a 2nd all star FA.
2. Team B: dysfunctional FO, likely new coach, unproven role players (none have been in playoffs), aging LBJ. |
Most of those "nice role players" beyond SGA, Shamet and Lou aren't under contract beyond this season and despite how insane he's playing right now, I have no doubt they'd love to get out from under that $22 million they owe Gallinari. Either way, he's an expiring contract next year, so he's not going to be around much longer.
They are playing out of their minds, but they're not some budding contender that just needs a star or two to get them over the top. They're going to come back to earth eventually. They don't have anything even remotely resembling a franchise player on their roster. Their plan is clear as day, and it's centered entirely around acquiring a star. |
Of course it is. The difference between the Lakers and the Clippers is they have a team they know can compete without signing the stars. They'll also have roster and head coaching continuity if they don't sign the stars. They'll have an organization with a unified vision led by the league's best executive and one of its best coaches.
The Lakers are firing their head coach, possibly trading members of their young core, and there's whispers of front office changes (Pelinka). The Lakers need a guy to come in and save them to shift the on-court product and narrative and it's easy to see. The Clippers can sell one or two guys
on simply being missing pieces. Not dissimilar to when we had a bunch of "nice" guys and sold Shaq on being the missing piece in 1996. One of these situations is much more attractive than the other. |
When we moved those guys during the Lake Show, some of them had already become bonafide all-stars (Eddie/NVE).
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yinoma2001
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Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 119487
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| Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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| KBH wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | Lakers will always win the brand war for LA.
But in actually winning playoff games, it's no longer only Lakers. Clips have actually killed us this decade in that respect, even when they have no banners to hang. They finally are set to go for it all.
The crazy thing is we got LBJ, a top 3 player from last year, and the team is somehow doing worse than the 2017-18 squad.
That's b/c of organizational ineptness. |
Nothing speaks more to the arrogance of the Lakers and fan base than the "What has it gotten them?" argument in regard to the Clippers. As if being a consistent playoff team has no inherent value relative to 20 win seasons. The Lakers used to be led by people who valued the process and struck strategically. Now we're hoping to win the lottery. |
Folks keep talking about the 1980s and Shaq/Kobe and later Kobe's final run.
But that's the past. We need to look forward and not go back to that well over and over.
When Arnovitz noted that we are the WORST team in the NBA record wise for the past 6 year span, that just made me so sad as a long time Lakers fan.
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From 2-10 to the Western Conference Finals |
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KBH
Franchise Player
Joined: 13 Sep 2008
Posts: 12171
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| Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Username wrote: | | KBH wrote: | | Username wrote: | | KBH wrote: | | Username wrote: | | KBH wrote: | | Username wrote: | | pjiddy wrote: | | Username wrote: | | SGV-Laker fan wrote: | hate to say this, and putting my flame suit on, personally i think the Clippers have a brighter future than the Lakers.
deep pocket owner who is hands off and willing to hire the best to run team
moving into new Inglewood arena near the new Rams stadium, that'll be the new center of the LA sport scene
free agents want the Clippers because they can get best of both worlds: big LA market but without the drama of being a Laker |
How many times have we heard this over the decades. Clippers are going to overtake the Lakers... seems it pops up every few years. Even when the Clippers were a perennial contender with Lob City and we sucked, it was still a Lakers town. It is and will always be. |
If you're valuing something as inconsequential as "whose town it is," sure. But which organization is putting a better team on the floor, year after year?
Clippers: 8 straight seasons OVER .500 (and counting)
Lakers: 6 straight seasons UNDER .500 (and counting)
Clippers: 7 playoff appearances in last 8 years
Lakers: 6 straight seasons in lottery.
Last time the Lakers had a better record than the Clippers: 2011-12 (7 years ago)
But hey, seeing more Laker merch than Clipper merch >>>>>> watching a better oncourt product. |
I don't disagree, but what has that Clippers success gotten them? They're in a position now where they're basically where we were last year - trying to clear space to lure a star.
We already did that.
Now granted, the road to clearing that cap space didn't work out as well as it has for the Clippers, but I'm not even sure they expected this season to go like it has. The trade for Tobias Harris was a pretty clear waiving of the white flag, but Lou and Gallinari started playing out of their minds and here we are.
They've got a better coach, better role players, and haven't had to deal with the insane injuries we have.
It's easy to get caught up on the dismal failure of this season, but here are the facts: we still have LeBron James, we still have some talented young players, we still have a lot of money and we have a likely lottery pick. I'm not so sure the Clippers future is all that much brighter. Hell, there's rumors that their coach might leave to come here. That tells you all you need to know. |
Where they are now is a playoff team that isn't as thirsty for stars because they can play without said stars. They're also led by an executive with a proven track record of success and a proven coach. And the fact that people are talking about Doc leaving the Clips for us says nothing more than Lakers entitlement. |
Isn't as thirsty for stars? The whole reason for their trade was to clear space to chase stars this summer. They're a great story and playing well, but a team led by Lou Williams and Danilo Gallinari has a ceiling and they've hit that ceiling. |
Who NEEDS to get stars more right now? The Lakers or the Clippers? Pursuit and blatant thirst are not the same thing. |
The Clippers need stars more. It might be hard to fathom now since they're headed to the playoffs and we're not, but again, their roster is limited. It has a ceiling, and they're going to hit that soon. They desperately need starpower to get to the next level.
We do too, but don't forget - as a healthy team we were No. 4 in the West and pounding the Warriors at home. Clippers are firing on all cylinders right now, like we were starting to around Christmas before it all fell apart. |
The Clippers have already managed to turn over their roster without missing a beat as far as making the playoffs. They have a team that is enjoyable to watch and has a track record of recent success despite rebuilding. The Lakers, meanwhile, haven't had a winning record in six years and are led by people whose entire team building ethos revolves around chasing star power.
If you think the Clippers are more thirsty for stars the Lakers, then you haven't been listening to Magic, Jeanie or LeBron. Speaking of LeBron, the Lakers can't even make the playoffs after literally signing the biggest star. And it's a good thing you mentioned the injuries because it only helps my point. The Lakers will be missing the playoffs partly because their best player missed 18 games due to injury. The Clippers are rolling into the playoffs despite trading their best player midseason. If that doesn't answer "what has it gotten them?" in terms of how these teams are positioned, nothing does.
The better question is what has bringing in Magic and signing LeBron gotten the Lakers? |
The Clippers lucked into the success of their roster turnover. Their actions speak as loud as Magic’s words. They are in the same business we are, the business of stars. The Tobias trade was a tanking move, and it just so happened that you have guys like Danilo Gallinari at age 30 having the best season of his life, shooting the 3-ball at an insanely high clip unprecedented in his career. Lou Williams at age 32 playing some of the best basketball of his life.
These things make for a great story THIS YEAR, but the reality is these things aren’t sustainable.
Magic made some mistakes in building this roster, but without the injuries this was a playoff team beating the Warriors in GS. I know that doesn't fit the narrative for most of you, but it's a fact. |
lol You aren't lucking into things when you build a roster that makes sense. If only Magic could "luck" into the playoffs after signing a top 3 player. You can keep drinking the kool-aid, but at this point we all have to pray Magic can sign a second star in hopes of making this team idiot proof. We already know the Clippers aren't lead by idiots. You're simply chooosing not to see the difference between pursuing a star to complete your vision/reach your goals and star chasing being your entire plan. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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Let's put it this way.
Say Clips get their 2 all stars, say KL/Kyrie (for argument's sake).
Say the Lakers get Klay. So we have LBJ/Klay.
Do you trust the Clips to build around the margins better with complementary role players? Or do you trust the brain trust that gave 28-29m to KCP/Rondo/Lance/Beez?
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KBH
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| Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | Let's put it this way.
Say Clips get their 2 all stars, say KL/Kyrie (for argument's sake).
Say the Lakers get Klay. So we have LBJ/Klay.
Do you trust the Clips to build around the margins better with complementary role players? Or do you trust the brain trust that gave 28-29m to KCP/Rondo/Lance/Beez? |
Your narrative doesn't fit, bro. |
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Username
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| Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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| RG73 wrote: | Firstly, you don't know if the Lakers will be at full health given BI's present status. We hope so, but he may not ever play again. And if he can play, we don't know if they'll try to ship off all the kids again. But given Magic and Pelinka's track record in non-star signings and trades, the edge goes to West and Frank, who will already have some solid players on the roster going into free agency.
As to how better training and monitoring can prevent injuries--really? Ok, structural imbalances can lead to inefficient movement and mechanics, which can put one into positions more likely to stress joints. Poor recovery regimes or not strengthening areas of weakness can lead to micro traumas to become macro traumas. Any decent trainer can watch someone in movement and pick apart areas where they are structurally unsound. None of this is rocket science. You can watch how someone jumps and lands and have a good sense if they're going to be prone to things like ankle inversion on landings. And you can actually work people in those uncomfortable positions and train them to land better under controlled conditions. None of this takes into account all sorts of wearable equipment now that collects all sorts of data that trainers can use to optimize performance and movement. I mean I have access to this level of coaching at my gym and I don't have $400 million in annual revenue. Injuries are often preventable--the Phoenix Suns pioneered that in the 7 seconds era before they also became a dysfunctional franchise. Yeah, if you load a joint violently in a direction it isn't supposed to go, something will break, but you can always push mobility, push resilience and coach awareness to minimize these things. And lets not forget our recovery times suck--and that is ignoring the obvious idiocy of Lakers PR vs medical reality. Our players rarely, if ever, beat standard projections for recovery. Again, training, nutrition, wearable monitors and analytics, PT staff.....the investment needs to be made. |
Firstly you can't prepare for things like blood clots. Magic built a team that was contending for the playoffs when everyone was healthy, and things fall apart and now we're out of the playoffs. These are facts.
Secondly, I understand how poor training can lead to injuries. The point I was trying to get at, which I can see how you misread so I apologize for making you type all that, is what evidence can we present to show that the Lakers’ allegedly “not using the latest and greatest training science and monitoring” is to blame for these injuries? How do we know this is the case? Are we using that as gospel now because the most unhealthy looking man on TV Brian Windhorst said it?
As I look at the NBA injury report today, there are 19 players listed with knee injuries and nine with ankle injuries. Are all those related to “not using the latest and greatest training science and monitoring” too, or does that only factor in when it’s a Lakers player who gets injured? Injuries happen across the NBA. Lonzo Ball rolled an ankle, a lot of players roll their ankles. Kevin Durant did the other night. It happens. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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| KBH wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | Let's put it this way.
Say Clips get their 2 all stars, say KL/Kyrie (for argument's sake).
Say the Lakers get Klay. So we have LBJ/Klay.
Do you trust the Clips to build around the margins better with complementary role players? Or do you trust the brain trust that gave 28-29m to KCP/Rondo/Lance/Beez? |
Your narrative doesn't fit, bro. |
We'd be celebrating getting the 2 max all the while losing the battles on the margin. That's what worries me the most.
LBJ is not an ends, it's a means.
2 max FAs is not an ends, it's a means.
But our current FO seems to operate under the assumption that it's "mission accomplished" once we get 2 max FAs.
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splashmtn
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| Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | I listened to that podcast and they were spot on. |
No they were not.
Name me any teams that have been to the finals in recent memory that didnt have at least TWO STARS?
Yeah, thought so.
lets say they are spot on about the lakers not worrying as much about analytics and the other things he named. lets for arguments take say thats 100% true(we dont know it its actually true just cause they said so.)
even if true. why would your GM/FO have the thought process stars or bust? because it has worked for this franchise since...Forever. In addition, other teams are not winning without them. we're not talking about winning banners. or winning during the season. we're talking about winning rings. not one ring. ringS. you aint pulling that off right now with out at minimum two SUPERstars.
those saying we should build thru the draft only believe that because you're watching the warriors who did it. but they could do it because they sucked for a very very long time. they havent won a title since before magic was on the lakers as a player. you should not compare the lakers to that team. the lakers dont compare to ANY team, especially non of the current teams that are winning a lot right now.
Warriors- havent seen a finals in multiple decades before drafting the splash bros.
same with the Bucks. I think the last time they went was when kareem helped them get there before becoming a laker. not an apples to apples comparison.
The L.A. Clippers still havent seen a finals. STILL.
The rockets didnt build thru the draft. they got two stars (harden, cp3). but they havent been really good since yao called it quits. until recently.
we can do this for just about every team that is current day Hot and exciting to watch.
While these baby loser teams were going thru their losing seasons or barely making the playoff seasons the lakers were taking road trips to the finals like it was their job to do it. Hey laker player where do you work ?" In the finals"
Hey all other teams players where do you work "oh um the same city as the team i play for."
See the difference?
STOP trying to make the lakers one of those teams. they are not those teams. period. we would have to lose for another 2 more decades and wipe out almost all of our 80's and 2000's rings.
People never mention that cp3 deal and the fact that we drafted bynum who ended up having career ending knees. if those two things do not happen. we would already have been in contention and have 2 stars post kobe. injuries you cant do anything about, the nixing of the deal was ridiculous and held our franchise back for YEARS, 5 at minimum. because it did not just stop us from getting cp3, it stopped us from making sure we had at least 2 stars in the future. It also meant we had to keep aging lo and aging gasol or trade them when the entire planet knows they want to leave since at that point they are disgruntled employees. thats why we couldnt get much of anything for them. stern killed that deal making us show our hand. you can't play poker showing your hand to everyone before the game is over.
Lol at draft stuff that they said as if we didnt get josh hart and kuz who were praised league wide until josh started playing hurt.
and then all the injuries this season. two guys down with season ending injuries. |
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Username
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| Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | Let's put it this way.
Say Clips get their 2 all stars, say KL/Kyrie (for argument's sake).
Say the Lakers get Klay. So we have LBJ/Klay.
Do you trust the Clips to build around the margins better with complementary role players? Or do you trust the brain trust that gave 28-29m to KCP/Rondo/Lance/Beez? |
With each roster as presently constructed, not accounting for injuries, we would be the better team. |
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RG73
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| Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Username wrote: |
Firstly you can't prepare for things like blood clots. Magic built a team that was contending for the playoffs when everyone was healthy, and things fall apart and now we're out of the playoffs. These are facts.
Secondly, I understand how poor training can lead to injuries. The point I was trying to get at, which I can see how you misread so I apologize for making you type all that, is what evidence can we present to show that the Lakers’ allegedly “not using the latest and greatest training science and monitoring” is to blame for these injuries? How do we know this is the case? Are we using that as gospel now because the most unhealthy looking man on TV Brian Windhorst said it?
As I look at the NBA injury report today, there are 19 players listed with knee injuries and nine with ankle injuries. Are all those related to “not using the latest and greatest training science and monitoring” too, or does that only factor in when it’s a Lakers player who gets injured? Injuries happen across the NBA. Lonzo Ball rolled an ankle, a lot of players roll their ankles. Kevin Durant did the other night. It happens. |
You're moving the goal posts. No one is blaming BI being down on the Lakers training. Lonzo, for example, had structural issues going back to the summer. The knee issue, followed by surgery, followed by no real training during the summer, likely meant he had structural imbalances. That, in turn, could have made him more prone to ankle injuries. I'm not saying it could have been totally prevented, but it's likely he has underlying issues that could have been addressed with a better training staff.
And it isn't just Windhorst saying this--many media people have pointed out out for years the Lakers are not on the cutting edge of anything. No one ever writes articles about the Lakers being on the cutting edge because they aren't, not because there is some anti-Lakers bias. And I believe the Lakers have been among the leaders in time lost to injury for something like a decade running now. Windhorst is just restating something that's obvious--we can look at the Lakers training staff and as far as I'm aware none of them are considered the top guys in the world. If someone more versed in training has insight contrary to this, I'd love to know. |
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KBH
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| Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | KBH wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | Let's put it this way.
Say Clips get their 2 all stars, say KL/Kyrie (for argument's sake).
Say the Lakers get Klay. So we have LBJ/Klay.
Do you trust the Clips to build around the margins better with complementary role players? Or do you trust the brain trust that gave 28-29m to KCP/Rondo/Lance/Beez? |
Your narrative doesn't fit, bro. |
We'd be celebrating getting the 2 max all the while losing the battles on the margin. That's what worries me the most.
LBJ is not an ends, it's a means.
2 max FAs is not an ends, it's a means.
But our current FO seems to operate under the assumption that it's "mission accomplished" once we get 2 max FAs. |
The two max plan is the most intellectually lazy plan out there because they're approaching it without regard to fielding a team that operates optimally. Hell, we can look at LeBron's first super team in Miami as an example. The Heat didn't win their first year despite pulling off a THREE max plan. LeBron's meltdown aside, the reason for that was partly because the Heat couldn't get a complete enough supporting cast to complement their big three. And that was with having LeBron at the peak of his powers and two other in-prime stars providing you a margin for error. Now we're lead by people who think all you need to do is get the max guys and roll the ball onto the court with an older LeBron and one other star.
Last edited by KBH on Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:01 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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splashmtn
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| Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | KBH wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | Let's put it this way.
Say Clips get their 2 all stars, say KL/Kyrie (for argument's sake).
Say the Lakers get Klay. So we have LBJ/Klay.
Do you trust the Clips to build around the margins better with complementary role players? Or do you trust the brain trust that gave 28-29m to KCP/Rondo/Lance/Beez? |
Your narrative doesn't fit, bro. |
We'd be celebrating getting the 2 max all the while losing the battles on the margin. That's what worries me the most.
LBJ is not an ends, it's a means.
2 max FAs is not an ends, it's a means.
But our current FO seems to operate under the assumption that it's "mission accomplished" once we get 2 max FAs. |
i dont think you understand whats going on.
What you have seen from even mitch and jim, and now rob and magic for these one year mercenaries is nothing like what you would see if we were building for a championship. we have not had the chance to build for a ring yet. if we get two guys we will start surrounding them with what we believe to be complimentary pieces. What you've been seeing has absolutely nothing to do with what you would see if we knew we would be in contention.
and no i'm not afraid of the clippers. but the clippers do have an advantage. they never had to unload guys and lose due to mos and deng contracts. the clippers had our guy cp3 and had blake and dj for being so sorry for so long. they drafted high enough to get the two bigs. this is how and why they have all of these assets. people give them props for letting go of blake early and getting good prospects and players for him. but they couldnt win with 2 superstars and 3 allstars. that alone should make you think twice about the clippers doing anything right. but sure jerry w is over there now. so you never know. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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| splashmtn wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | KBH wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | Let's put it this way.
Say Clips get their 2 all stars, say KL/Kyrie (for argument's sake).
Say the Lakers get Klay. So we have LBJ/Klay.
Do you trust the Clips to build around the margins better with complementary role players? Or do you trust the brain trust that gave 28-29m to KCP/Rondo/Lance/Beez? |
Your narrative doesn't fit, bro. |
We'd be celebrating getting the 2 max all the while losing the battles on the margin. That's what worries me the most.
LBJ is not an ends, it's a means.
2 max FAs is not an ends, it's a means.
But our current FO seems to operate under the assumption that it's "mission accomplished" once we get 2 max FAs. |
i dont think you understand whats going on.
What you have seen from even mitch and jim, and now rob and magic for these one year mercenaries is nothing like what you would see if we were building for a championship. we have not had the chance to build for a ring yet. if we get two guys we will start surrounding them with what we believe to be complimentary pieces. What you've been seeing has absolutely nothing to do with what you would see if we knew we would be in contention.
and no i'm not afraid of the clippers. but the clippers do have an advantage. they never had to unload guys and lose due to mos and deng contracts. the clippers had our guy cp3 and had blake and dj for being so sorry for so long. they drafted high enough to get the two bigs. this is how and why they have all of these assets. people give them props for letting go of blake early and getting good prospects and players for him. but they couldnt win with 2 superstars and 3 allstars. that alone should make you think twice about the clippers doing anything right. but sure jerry w is over there now. so you never know. |
So you know what's going on then? 
So this is an elaborate plot to be a lottery team after signing one of the greatest players ever. I was fine with being a first round team as a realistic expectation.
So maybe LBJ is just trying to get out of school early to start filming Space Jam 2. Is that what's really going on then?
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Mamba Mentality
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| Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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| AFireInside619 wrote: | | socalsp3 wrote: | | last time Knicks won it was 30 years ago. The Lakers will never win again continuing to do what they do now. |
I didn’t include this on purpose, but Pelton mentioned how the Lakers are closer to the Knicks than the Warriors. The truth hurts. |
My sentiments exactly.
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splashmtn
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| Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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| KBH wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | KBH wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | Let's put it this way.
Say Clips get their 2 all stars, say KL/Kyrie (for argument's sake).
Say the Lakers get Klay. So we have LBJ/Klay.
Do you trust the Clips to build around the margins better with complementary role players? Or do you trust the brain trust that gave 28-29m to KCP/Rondo/Lance/Beez? |
Your narrative doesn't fit, bro. |
We'd be celebrating getting the 2 max all the while losing the battles on the margin. That's what worries me the most.
LBJ is not an ends, it's a means.
2 max FAs is not an ends, it's a means.
But our current FO seems to operate under the assumption that it's "mission accomplished" once we get 2 max FAs. |
The two max plan is the most intellectually lazy plan out there because they're approaching it without regard to fielding a team that operates optimally. Hell, we can look at LeBron's first super team in Miami as an example. The Heat didn't win their first year despite pulling off a THREE max plan. LeBron's meltdown aside, the reason for that was partly because the Heat couldn't get a complete enough supporting cast to complement their big three. And that was with having LeBron at the peak of his powers and two other in-prime stars providing you a margin for error. Now we're lead by people who think all you need to do is get the max guys and roll the ball onto the court with an older LeBron and one other star. |
if it was about not having the right guys. thats because it takes time. You cant expect any gm to put together a ring team in one or two or even 3 summers sometimes unless 3 players collude and say we're playing together.
then that will cut the build time down by about 2 years.so even if we complete the 2 stars plan this summer. we may still need an addtl year to get the proper cast around them.
most teams dont when by putting together a team thats already in the playoffs then just adding two max guys. you usually cant afford them in that scenario. which will keep you in pergatory. never beeing good enough to make any real noise. just hovering in the playoffs and getting bounced every year. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Username wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | Let's put it this way.
Say Clips get their 2 all stars, say KL/Kyrie (for argument's sake).
Say the Lakers get Klay. So we have LBJ/Klay.
Do you trust the Clips to build around the margins better with complementary role players? Or do you trust the brain trust that gave 28-29m to KCP/Rondo/Lance/Beez? |
With each roster as presently constructed, not accounting for injuries, we would be the better team. |
Well, you have to account for injuries. Currently BI has a blood clot issue that we do not know the outcome. And BI is a big part of the picture.
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