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BigGameHames
Star Player
Joined: 24 May 2015
Posts: 7982
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 Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:53 am Post subject: |
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| adkindo wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to understand how valuable he is to the Lakers. It does, however, require somebody to be open to the idea that his impact cannot be shown in basic stats. Whether that is a lack or ability or lack of willingness to accept is irrelevant. If you don’t think he’s impactful and consider yourself a knowledgeable fan, you likely fall in the unwilling category. It’s blatantly obvious how valuable he is if you’ve been watching the team on a consistent basis the last two years. |
I wanted you to directly respond to my post....I was testing the signal.  |
My signal must be working great. I posted, you responded, not the other way around. FWIW I’d lump you in the unwilling crowd not unable. I think you know a thing or two. |
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levon
Franchise Player
Joined: 11 Oct 2016
Posts: 10853
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:59 am Post subject: |
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| Treble Clef wrote: | | Practice wrote: | | adkindo wrote: | Since the claim is that Lonzo's absence has mostly been felt on the defensive end.....since he has been out, the starting PG's of the other team...
GSW - Curry 11 Points / 3 of 12 Shooting
TWolves - Rose 6 Points / 3 of 7 Shooting
Suns - Okobo 4 Points / 2 of 6 Shooting
76'ers - Simmons 19 Points / 9 of 18 Shooting
LAC - Beverly 17 Points / 6 of 11 Shooting
GSW - Curry 14 Points / 5 of 15 Shooting
Indy - Collison 5 Points / 2 of 6 Shooting
Boston - Irving 24 Points / 6 of 21 Shooting
76'ers - Simmons 8 Points / 3 of 13 Shooting
Hawks - Young 22 Points / 6 of 19 Shooting
Houston - Harden 30 Points / 11 of 24 Shooting
Pelicans - Payton 14 Points / 5 of 10 Shooting
12 Games - 174 Points = 14.5 Points Average Per Game
61 FG's of 162 FGA's = 37% FG%
So in the 12 games that we have been without Ball's defense, the opposing starting PG's, in which 6 of the 12 games was current All Stars, averaged 14.5 Points per game on 37% shooting.
Is the claim that Ball's defense would improve those numbers? |
I don't think you can just look at how an opposing player of the same position shot to determine a player's impact defensively. |
Twitter has been flooded with such stats all year, giving Lonzo full credit for the poor shooting of the opposing point guard. He's out and point guards are still shooting terrible and I haven't seen anyone caring about those stats anymore  |
I still care about these stats. They say that Brandon Ingram is a markedly improved defender. However, they say nothing about our insane decline in defensive efficiency across the board outside of these individual stats. Our perimeter defense is atrocious, particularly with Rondo and KCP. And if they're a sieve on the perimeter, McGee and Chandler aren't scaring anyone down low. |
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epak
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Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 34147
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:32 am Post subject: |
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This thread :\
No player who plays big minutes is expendable if you're not replacing them with a competent player.
1. For those that think we're not hurting not having Lonzo in the lineup is just a hater.
2. For those that think we're hurting solely because of not having Lonzo in the lineup is not looking at all the other variables that is making this team suck. |
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Mamba Mentality
Star Player
Joined: 04 May 2017
Posts: 3078
Location: The Left Coast
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:34 am Post subject: |
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| epak wrote: | This thread :\
No player who plays big minutes is expendable if you're not replacing them with a competent player.
1. For those that think we're not hurting not having Lonzo in the lineup is just a hater.
2. For those that think we're hurting solely because of not having Lonzo in the lineup is not looking at all the other variables that is making this team suck. |
100
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“You can't be held captive by the fear of failure or the fear of what people may say.” - Kobe Bryant |
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Wilkes52
Star Player
Joined: 02 Jun 2009
Posts: 2415
Location: Far from home
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:46 am Post subject: |
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From what I've seen of the franchise's last three seasons, everyone's expendable theoretically. I mean with good cause. This club is playing .500 ball.
There are no "franchise cornerstones" here yet, though several are possible candidates for the role some day. Lonzo has a feel thing going for him, but I'd send him away in a heartbeat with Ingram and Kooz for someone with a proven All NBA gravitas. Check that, no Boogie, please.
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Kareem Abdul-Jabbar |
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The Juggernaut
Star Player
Joined: 24 Aug 2017
Posts: 4572
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:50 am Post subject: |
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| epak wrote: | This thread :\
No player who plays big minutes is expendable if you're not replacing them with a competent player.
1. For those that think we're not hurting not having Lonzo in the lineup is just a hater.
2. For those that think we're hurting solely because of not having Lonzo in the lineup is not looking at all the other variables that is making this team suck. |
All true. Zo's impact on both ends is greatly missing. If we had a competent coach with a better system the loss of Zo wouldn't have been as bad. But because Luke is incompetent, having a guy like Zo that can make the correct pass quickly and digest what's happening on the court on both ends is invaluable for our team. |
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BigGameHames
Star Player
Joined: 24 May 2015
Posts: 7982
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:01 am Post subject: |
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| epak wrote: | This thread :\
No player who plays big minutes is expendable if you're not replacing them with a competent player.
1. For those that think we're not hurting not having Lonzo in the lineup is just a hater.
2. For those that think we're hurting solely because of not having Lonzo in the lineup is not looking at all the other variables that is making this team suck. |
True but are we not replacing him with a competent player? Many who consider him expendable also believe Rondo is as good if not better. He’s obviously not solely responsible but I think he’s clearly the biggest reason. |
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activeverb
Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 37470
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:24 am Post subject: |
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| epak wrote: | This thread :\
No player who plays big minutes is expendable if you're not replacing them with a competent player.
1. For those that think we're not hurting not having Lonzo in the lineup is just a hater.
2. For those that think we're hurting solely because of not having Lonzo in the lineup is not looking at all the other variables that is making this team suck. |
I think this whole thread is a little off.
I buy the notion that people don't appreciate the impact that Lonzo makes, especially on defense.
I don't buy the notion that the Lakers are hellbent on getting rid of him or that Lonzo is a key piece to a ring team that must be retained at all costs.
Basically, the Lakers have made it clear that they want another star and everyone is expendable in that pursuit, including Lonzo. It isn't that Lonzo in particular is expendable; it's that EVERYONE on the roster, except Lebron, is expendable. |
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Treble Clef
Franchise Player
Joined: 20 Nov 2012
Posts: 23944
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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| BigGameHames wrote: | | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | Also:
| Quote: |
UniquESports +
@UniqueSportplus
Lakers are
15-8 (65.2%) When Healthy
23-18 (56.1%) W/Lebron
25-21 (54.3%) W/Lonzo
6-12 (33.3%) W/Out LBJ
4-9 (30.8%) W/Out Zo
1-5 (16.7%) W/Out LBJ&Zo
3-4 (42.8%) W/ LBJ and No Zo
5-4 (55.6%) W/ Zo&Kuz and No LBJ
1-4 (20.0%) W/Out Kuzma
5-6 (45.5%) W/Out Ingram |
https://twitter.com/UniqueSportplus/status/1099541842520084481 |
For some reason, when discussing Ball, counting stats matter more than the teams performance. |
People just have very strong motivations to say he is either really good or really bad. He's somewhere in the middle. He is a productive player even though his shooting and finishing are well below what they should be but he also isn't the key to winning games.
The schedule got harder, McGee and Hart had significant dropoffs, LeBron got hurt, just lots of moving pieces in there. When the Lakers had their best record, Lonzo actually had one of the lower +/- numbers on the team, so I am not sold on the new claims that the absence of Lonzo is why they are losing. |
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BigGameHames
Star Player
Joined: 24 May 2015
Posts: 7982
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Treble Clef wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | Also:
| Quote: |
UniquESports +
@UniqueSportplus
Lakers are
15-8 (65.2%) When Healthy
23-18 (56.1%) W/Lebron
25-21 (54.3%) W/Lonzo
6-12 (33.3%) W/Out LBJ
4-9 (30.8%) W/Out Zo
1-5 (16.7%) W/Out LBJ&Zo
3-4 (42.8%) W/ LBJ and No Zo
5-4 (55.6%) W/ Zo&Kuz and No LBJ
1-4 (20.0%) W/Out Kuzma
5-6 (45.5%) W/Out Ingram |
https://twitter.com/UniqueSportplus/status/1099541842520084481 |
For some reason, when discussing Ball, counting stats matter more than the teams performance. |
People just have very strong motivations to say he is either really good or really bad. He's somewhere in the middle. He is a productive player even though his shooting and finishing are well below what they should be but he also isn't the key to winning games.
The schedule got harder, McGee and Hart had significant dropoffs, LeBron got hurt, just lots of moving pieces in there. When the Lakers had their best record, Lonzo actually had one of the lower +/- numbers on the team, so I am not sold on the new claims that the absence of Lonzo is why they are losing. |
Isn’t key to winning games? I couldn’t disagree more. It took time for the team to adjust to life without LeBron but they figured it out eventually and began to play well. Then Zo got hurt and they haven’t recovered. It’s not a coincidence. I think(maybe hope is a better word) they’ll adjust to life without Zo but if they don’t, we aren’t making the playoffs. |
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Captain America
Starting Rotation
Joined: 20 Oct 2014
Posts: 720
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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| BigGameHames wrote: | | epak wrote: | This thread :\
No player who plays big minutes is expendable if you're not replacing them with a competent player.
1. For those that think we're not hurting not having Lonzo in the lineup is just a hater.
2. For those that think we're hurting solely because of not having Lonzo in the lineup is not looking at all the other variables that is making this team suck. |
True but are we not replacing him with a competent player? Many who consider him expendable also believe Rondo is as good if not better. He’s obviously not solely responsible but I think he’s clearly the biggest reason. |
100% agree. Guarantee you the same people saying that Rondo is not a competent replacement comparison were probably saying in the off-season he would be an upgrade over Lonzo. Could probably pick half the starting PGs in the league and say the same thing. "Oh his backup is just an average starter? Doesn't count" |
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BigGameHames
Star Player
Joined: 24 May 2015
Posts: 7982
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain America wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | epak wrote: | This thread :\
No player who plays big minutes is expendable if you're not replacing them with a competent player.
1. For those that think we're not hurting not having Lonzo in the lineup is just a hater.
2. For those that think we're hurting solely because of not having Lonzo in the lineup is not looking at all the other variables that is making this team suck. |
True but are we not replacing him with a competent player? Many who consider him expendable also believe Rondo is as good if not better. He’s obviously not solely responsible but I think he’s clearly the biggest reason. |
100% agree. Guarantee you the same people saying that would say Rondo is not a competent replacement comparison were probably saying in the off-season he would be an upgrade over Lonzo. Could probably pick half the starting PGs in the league and say the same thing. "Oh his backup is just an average starter? Doesn't count" |
Rondo is an above average backup PG even in his current washed up form. Coming into this year he was expected to be one of if not the best. Last year, he was a top 3 player on a second round WC team. After Zo got hurt, he couldn’t do a good enough job in Zos role to remain in the starting lineup. I’m truly baffled by some of these LG opinions. In the real world, even my friends who were skeptical of Zo have come around on him after seeing the dumpster fire that the team has become without him. |
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epak
Retired Number
Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 34147
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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| BigGameHames wrote: | | Captain America wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | epak wrote: | This thread :\
No player who plays big minutes is expendable if you're not replacing them with a competent player.
1. For those that think we're not hurting not having Lonzo in the lineup is just a hater.
2. For those that think we're hurting solely because of not having Lonzo in the lineup is not looking at all the other variables that is making this team suck. |
True but are we not replacing him with a competent player? Many who consider him expendable also believe Rondo is as good if not better. He’s obviously not solely responsible but I think he’s clearly the biggest reason. |
100% agree. Guarantee you the same people saying that would say Rondo is not a competent replacement comparison were probably saying in the off-season he would be an upgrade over Lonzo. Could probably pick half the starting PGs in the league and say the same thing. "Oh his backup is just an average starter? Doesn't count" |
Rondo is an above average backup PG even in his current washed up form. Coming into this year he was expected to be one of if not the best. Last year, he was a top 3 player on a second round WC team. After Zo got hurt, he couldn’t do a good enough job in Zos role to remain in the starting lineup. I’m truly baffled by some of these LG opinions. In the real world, even my friends who were skeptical of Zo have come around on him after seeing the dumpster fire that the team has become without him. |
Personally I was excited for playoff Rondo.
I had the opinion that regular season Rondo was inferior to Lonzo though.
And coming into this year, I knew Rondo needed the ball in his hands to be effective, but man, since the team is so Lebron/BI centric right now, Rondo looks like a pure negative. Side: I actually think he's not 100% right now.
I think for those of us Lonzo fans, we actually saw the positives that Lonzo brought. And it becomes apparent when he's out.
So he's a big missing piece especially in the way the team is constructed at this time. I'm just saying there's a lot of things wrong w/ the team besides missing Zo, and missing Zo brings so much light into which players can get their own vs a player that needs to be setup all the time. |
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Runway8
Franchise Player
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Posts: 22885
Location: La Jolla, San Diego
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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| The correct question is, "If Lonzo is so Expendable, why is Sly making Expendables 4 without him? |
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deal
Franchise Player
Joined: 17 Aug 2008
Posts: 14953
Location: Earth
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Runway8 wrote: | | The correct question is, "If Lonzo is so Expendable, why is Sly making Expendables 4 without him? |
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Lakers need to build a freaking team ! |
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MJST
Retired Number
Joined: 06 Jul 2014
Posts: 26862
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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The only thing missing from Zo's game is a consistent jump shot and the timing on his finishes.
Even then, his jump shot was improving, which he's had to improve during NBA seasons as he hasn't had a single off-season to work on anything yet.
SO he spent the summer inside the weight room and the film room which is one of the reasons why we see such a defensive improvement. Because he knows guys tendencies. It's the same kind of stuff Kobe was talking about that kids don't do enough of nowadays.
But Lonzo is a student of the game, and I'd love to see what he could do with an entire off-season to work on his jumper.
You watch the way he was controlling the game against the Rockets and forcing them to play at his pace while we dominated them. You can't just teach that.
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How NBA 2K18 failed the All-Time Lakers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxMBYm3wwxk |
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activeverb
Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 37470
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2019 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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| BigGameHames wrote: | | Treble Clef wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | Baron Von Humongous wrote: | Also:
| Quote: |
UniquESports +
@UniqueSportplus
Lakers are
15-8 (65.2%) When Healthy
23-18 (56.1%) W/Lebron
25-21 (54.3%) W/Lonzo
6-12 (33.3%) W/Out LBJ
4-9 (30.8%) W/Out Zo
1-5 (16.7%) W/Out LBJ&Zo
3-4 (42.8%) W/ LBJ and No Zo
5-4 (55.6%) W/ Zo&Kuz and No LBJ
1-4 (20.0%) W/Out Kuzma
5-6 (45.5%) W/Out Ingram |
https://twitter.com/UniqueSportplus/status/1099541842520084481 |
For some reason, when discussing Ball, counting stats matter more than the teams performance. |
People just have very strong motivations to say he is either really good or really bad. He's somewhere in the middle. He is a productive player even though his shooting and finishing are well below what they should be but he also isn't the key to winning games.
The schedule got harder, McGee and Hart had significant dropoffs, LeBron got hurt, just lots of moving pieces in there. When the Lakers had their best record, Lonzo actually had one of the lower +/- numbers on the team, so I am not sold on the new claims that the absence of Lonzo is why they are losing. |
Isn’t key to winning games? I couldn’t disagree more. It took time for the team to adjust to life without LeBron but they figured it out eventually and began to play well. Then Zo got hurt and they haven’t recovered. It’s not a coincidence. I think(maybe hope is a better word) they’ll adjust to life without Zo but if they don’t, we aren’t making the playoffs. |
Also, Lo got injured and we've played 13 games. 9 of those have been against playoff teams, and most against the better playoff teams. 8 of the games have been road games.
So there is a lot more going on besides Zo. |
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