LakersGround.net :: View topic - PGA Tour Professional Short Changes Caddie

PGA Tour Professional Short Changes Caddie
Goto page 1, 2, 3 Next

LakersGround.net Forum Index -> Off Topic

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author

Message

adkindo
Retired Number

Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 40345
Location: Dirty South

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:31 pm Post subject: PGA Tour Professional Short Changes Caddie

The saga of Matt Kuchar allegedly shorting his caddie in Mexico continues in bizarre fashion

Quote:

The story first broke back in January during Kuchar's Sony Open victory. Kuchar apparently did not pay El Tucan very well during his win at the Mayakoba Classic last fall, where he amassed winnings of $1.3 million. Ortiz was a substitute for the week, and it was first reported that Kuchar only gave him $3,000 for the win.

LINK

If this story is accurate and holds up, Matt Kuchar deserves an ass beating at every tour stop for the next 2 years. Giving a caddie $3 or $5K in a tournament that you won $1.3 Million is just a disgusting level of greed.

Every story I read brings up that the caddie was a "fill in" and not a regular tour caddie as some form of justification on why he would not get the standard 10% ($130K), but why should that matter? He did the same job, and it must have been good enough for Kuchar to win. Still even if he did a less than perfect job, you have to break that man off $75K at a minimum.

DaMuleRules
Retired Number

Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 52654
Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:43 pm Post subject: Re: PGA Tour Professional Short Changes Caddie

adkindo wrote:

The saga of Matt Kuchar allegedly shorting his caddie in Mexico continues in bizarre fashion

Quote:

Exactly. BS move (if true) and I now I don't feel so bad for him about how that final day at The Open in 2017 went for him.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames

Jason Isbell

Man, do those lyrics resonate right now

ChickenStu
Retired Number

Joined: 25 Apr 2015
Posts: 31912
Location: Anaheim, CA

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:52 pm Post subject:

If this is indeed true, so much for the "affable" Matt Kuchar. If he really did stiff this dude in such a manner, I'm guessing that there will be enough blowback to where he will have to cave in and pay the dude. And he would still look like a jerk.

Omar Little
Moderator

Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 90306
Location: Formerly Known As 24

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:55 pm Post subject:

Shocking that guys who grew up on country clubs would stiff the help. _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel

ChickenStu
Retired Number

Joined: 25 Apr 2015
Posts: 31912
Location: Anaheim, CA

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:58 pm Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:

Shocking that guys who grew up on country clubs would stiff the help.

In all my years of following professional golf, I've never heard of something like this. It would be one thing if a guy tried to pay his caddie like 8% instead of the usual 10% or something. But 3 thousand dollars on a 1.3MM win? It seems so off that I'm really hoping there's something here that isn't being reported.

ChickenStu
Retired Number

Joined: 25 Apr 2015
Posts: 31912
Location: Anaheim, CA

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:08 pm Post subject:

I'm talking to a friend right now who works at a golf course, and he's saying that the amount was agreed to beforehand and that he actually gave him 5K. I am basically asking him how can he fail to see how this still looks awful for Kuchar, and he doesn't agree LOL.

ChickenStu
Retired Number

Joined: 25 Apr 2015
Posts: 31912
Location: Anaheim, CA

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:14 pm Post subject:

Another one of my buddies just said that apparently Kuchar offered the guy another 15K and he turned it down. HOW DOES HE NOT SEE HOW BAD THIS LOOKS?

DaMuleRules
Retired Number

Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 52654
Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:34 pm Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:

Shocking that guys who grew up on country clubs would stiff the help.

Yeah, but he's not a kid playing at the family country club anymore. He's a professional skirting the established protocols of his field. Quite different than exhibiting a sense of entitlement.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames

Jason Isbell

Man, do those lyrics resonate right now

LongBeachPoly
Franchise Player

Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 16143

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:53 pm Post subject: Re: PGA Tour Professional Short Changes Caddie

adkindo wrote:

The saga of Matt Kuchar allegedly shorting his caddie in Mexico continues in bizarre fashion

Quote:

Are caddies paid per contract, or are they paid like a tip? Is it up to the golfer to decide how much he gives?

Looks like it's more of a tip.

Last edited by LongBeachPoly on Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:57 pm; edited 1 time in total

dont_be_a_wuss
Franchise Player

Joined: 29 Mar 2012
Posts: 21458

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:56 pm Post subject:

The only factor to ask here is what were the payouts for lower prizes in the tournament? If the golfer placed near the bottom, would the caddy get $1,000 or something like that? And if so did the caddy agree to a $3,000 guarantee to reduce his risk?

LongBeachPoly
Franchise Player

Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 16143

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:59 pm Post subject:

dont_be_a_wuss wrote:

The only factor to ask here is what were the payouts for lower prizes in the tournament? If the golfer placed near the bottom, would the caddy got $1,000 or something like that? And if so did the caddy agree to a $3,000 guarantee to reduce his risk?

If stuff like that happens, then it would be pretty common right? Seems like this is something uncommon.

LongBeachPoly
Franchise Player

Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 16143

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:01 pm Post subject:

This article makes a great point:

Quote:

Also, his caddie, David Giral Ortiz, was a stand-in that week for Kuchar’s regular caddie. So you think Kuchar might want to give him even more for stepping in and helping pick up his first win in over four years.

Imagine winning for the first time in 4 years and it happened to be this stand in guy. Your lucky charm and you treat him like this?

Quote:

Matt Kuchar confirmed Wednesday that he did pay his Mayakoba caddie $5,000 and defended the payment as "fair and good."

"Making $5,000 is a great week," he said. @WillGrayGC with more from Kuchar: https://watchgolf.ch/3kLjuh

Quote:

Kuchar told Golf.com on Wednesday:

Kuchar said he told Ortiz he would pay him $1,000 if he missed the cut, $2,000 if he made the cut, $3,000 if he had a top-20 and $4,000 if he had a top-10. “The extra $1,000 was, ‘Thank you — it was a great week.’ Those were the terms. He was in agreement with those terms. That’s where I struggle. I don’t know what happened. Someone must have said, `You need much more.’”

Quote:

Here are some other things to take into account: Kuchar has won over $46 million on Tour and is 10th on the all-time money list.

Quote:

The optics alone—a veteran with $46 million in career earnings low-balling a man who makes less than $46,000 a year—were damning.

Quote:

For what it’s worth, Ortiz told Golf.com after the Mayakoba win he had not received or discussed his pay with Kuchar, only that he was aware of the standard 10 percent.

dont_be_a_wuss
Franchise Player

Joined: 29 Mar 2012
Posts: 21458

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:07 pm Post subject:

LongBeachPoly wrote:

dont_be_a_wuss wrote:

If stuff like that happens, then it would be pretty common right? Seems like this is something uncommon.

Most caddies are working many events though and playing the averages. If this guy was just planning to do one event, he may be more likely to negotiate a guarantee.

DaMuleRules
Retired Number

Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 52654
Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:08 pm Post subject:

LongBeachPoly wrote:

This article makes a great point:

Quote:

Imagine winning for the first time in 4 years and it happened to be this stand in guy. Your lucky charm and you treat him like this?

Especially since the temp caddie had to step in on the fly and did a better job of aiding Kuchar in victory than John Wood, his regular caddie, has done in years.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames

Jason Isbell

Man, do those lyrics resonate right now

DaMuleRules
Retired Number

Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 52654
Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:13 pm Post subject:

dont_be_a_wuss wrote:

LongBeachPoly wrote:

dont_be_a_wuss wrote:

If stuff like that happens, then it would be pretty common right? Seems like this is something uncommon.

Most caddies are working many events though and playing the averages. If this guy was just planning to do one event, he may be more likely to negotiate a guarantee.

What the temp-caddie was willing to negotiate going in really isn't the issue. Kuchar didn't finish at the bottom of the field. He won . . . and for the first time in years.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames

Jason Isbell

Man, do those lyrics resonate right now

LongBeachPoly
Franchise Player

Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 16143

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:20 pm Post subject:

dont_be_a_wuss wrote:

LongBeachPoly wrote:

dont_be_a_wuss wrote:

If stuff like that happens, then it would be pretty common right? Seems like this is something uncommon.

Most caddies are working many events though and playing the averages. If this guy was just planning to do one event, he may be more likely to negotiate a guarantee.

Yeah, and I'm saying that would be something that happens commonly? The way this story is playing out - it's like this NEVER happens. That this would be the first caddie in history to accept a guarantee so low. Even Matt Kuchar's story is that they had a tiered agreement:

Quote:

Kuchar said he told Ortiz he would pay him $1,000 if he missed the cut, $2,000 if he made the cut, $3,000 if he had a top-20 and $4,000 if he had a top-10. “The extra $1,000 was, ‘Thank you — it was a great week.’

Look at that agreement. That's just ridiculously low. $4,000 for a top 10 and nothing for a win. Even knowing that 10% is the usual payout, why would a caddie accept such a low tiered payout? His story doesn't add up. There's no reason for this caddie to accept such a low offer. This caddie didn't even ask to be his caddie. He was recommended by the tournament director after Wood couldn't make it.

Quote:

Making Kuchar's victory even more impressive is that he did it without his regular caddie, John Wood. Kuchar was a late entry to the field at Mayakoba, and according to Golf Digest, Wood had already RSVP'd to a reunion, leaving Kuchar in need of a last-second replacement.

Tournament director Joe Mazzeo recommended caddie coordinator David Giral Ortiz, known by his nickname "El Tucan," to take over on Kuchar's bag.

And Kuchar thought he was his lucky charm:

Quote:

"He was definitely my lucky charm," Kuchar said. "He brought me good luck and certainly some extra crowd support and did a great job as well. He did just what I was hoping for and looking for."

Here's a news story from when the win occurred:

Quote:

Matt Kuchar hired a local caddie nicknamed 'El Tucan' at the last minute, won his first tourney in 4 years, and the caddie earned up to $130,000

Ortiz didn't just earn Kuchar's praise though — assuming Ortiz got a caddie's standard payout of around 10% for wins, it's possible that El Tucan walked away from the tournament almost $130,000 richer.

Is it customary when you get a stand in caddie to start talking about payout structures? Would he have done this to an American stand in caddie? Seems to me this caddie didn't speak much English and maybe Kuchar thought he could get away with it and the Mexican caddie wouldn't say anything.

Last edited by LongBeachPoly on Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:28 pm; edited 1 time in total

ChickenStu
Retired Number

Joined: 25 Apr 2015
Posts: 31912
Location: Anaheim, CA

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:27 pm Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:

dont_be_a_wuss wrote:

LongBeachPoly wrote:

dont_be_a_wuss wrote:

If stuff like that happens, then it would be pretty common right? Seems like this is something uncommon.

Most caddies are working many events though and playing the averages. If this guy was just planning to do one event, he may be more likely to negotiate a guarantee.

What the temp-caddie was willing to negotiate going in really isn't the issue. Kuchar didn't finish at the bottom of the field. He won . . . and for the first time in years.

Yeah, it's a chicken-bleep move. Say the guy did agree to those figures. It means Kuchar totally took advantage of the situation, and that is nothing to be proud of. And even if the guy had agreed to those figures, when you win $1.3MM, feel free to toss him an extra 50K or something. If 130K would've been the standard 10%, think about it: it means that he ended up giving him less than one half of one percent of his take.

It's just pathetic.

LongBeachPoly
Franchise Player

Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 16143

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:31 pm Post subject:

ChickenStu wrote:

DaMuleRules wrote:

dont_be_a_wuss wrote:

LongBeachPoly wrote:

dont_be_a_wuss wrote:

If stuff like that happens, then it would be pretty common right? Seems like this is something uncommon.

Most caddies are working many events though and playing the averages. If this guy was just planning to do one event, he may be more likely to negotiate a guarantee.

What the temp-caddie was willing to negotiate going in really isn't the issue. Kuchar didn't finish at the bottom of the field. He won . . . and for the first time in years.

Yup, 0.38%

And he said he even through in an extra $1,000 as a thank you. He said the caddie agreed to only $4k if he won.

Quote:

"Matt is a good person and a great player,'' Ortiz, a regular caddie at the Mayakoba Resort near Cancun who says he can make up to $200 per day, told Golf.com. "He treated me very well. I am only disappointed by how it all finished.''

Yeah, I get the sense that Matt treated him not as someone carrying his bag. Matt felt he only makes $200 a day, so $5k is great for him. Matt definitely didn't feel he deserved anything close to $130k.

Wonder how much Matt gives to his regular caddie? Wonder how his regular caddie feels?

Quote:

"It's kind of too bad that it's turned into a story," Kuchar said. "I really didn't think it was a story because we had an arrangement when I started. I've done enough tournaments and had enough weekly caddies, and I'm very clear about what the payment will be. And we had an arrangement Tuesday that David was OK with, and I thought Sunday he was very much OK with it.

"I kind of feel like unfortunately some other people have got it in his head that he's deserving something different than what we agreed upon. And it's just too bad that it's turned into a story, because it doesn't need to be. We had a great week."

Seems like Matt is saying he short-changes all his stand in caddies.

ChickenStu
Retired Number

Joined: 25 Apr 2015
Posts: 31912
Location: Anaheim, CA

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:43 pm Post subject:

^ I mean, caddying is not rocket science. That said, sure, some caddies are more involved in the process of analyzing each shot or in reading putts than others. OK, I get that. If he didn't feel like 10% was fair because he's not really a PGA Tour caddie, I could somewhat understand that. I simply have no way to defend him for less than one half of one percent as being appropriate. You would think that after you won $1.3MM, which was your first win in 4 years, you'd be cool with rewarding the dude with substantially more than 5K.

LongBeachPoly
Franchise Player

Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 16143

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:48 pm Post subject:

Quote:

In a Jan. 24 email Ortiz sent to Mark Steinberg, Kuchar’s agent, the caddie wrote, “I am a humble man, who takes care of his family, and works hard. I am reaching out to you to see if you can facilitate me receiving a fair amount for my help with Matt winning $1,296,000. I am not looking to disparage Matt or give him a bad name. Fair is fair, and I feel like I was taken advantage of by placing my trust in Matt.”

Quote:

Ortiz, a 40-year-old father, as is Kuchar, said he wrote in Spanish and used Google Translate to turn his words into English. He also said he received help from Americans visiting Mayakoba, the Mexican resort where he works. Ortiz caddies at the El Camaleon Golf Club, in Playa del Carmen.

Asked how he felt about the offer to receive what he said would be an additional and final $15,000 payment, Ortiz said, “No thank you. They can keep their money.”

Quote:

Ortiz said he did not expect to be paid what a Tour caddie would have made, but said he believed his work and contribution toward the win was worth $50,000. The win was Kuchar’s first in more than four years. He has made over $46 million in Tour prize money in his career and is 10th on the career money list.

Speaking through a translator, Ortiz said, “Matt is a good person and a great player. He treated me very well. I am only disappointed by how it all finished.”

Quote:

Shortly after the tournament, Ortiz said he hoped and expected to work for Kuchar when he defends his title this year. Asked recently if he would want to caddie for Kuchar again, Ortiz said, “No thank you. I’m a little bit pissed, a little bit confused.”

Ortiz said he wrote to Steinberg because he did not have contact information for Kuchar. He shared with GOLF.com three emails he sent to Steinberg, one on Jan. 24, one on Jan. 29 and one on Feb. 5. He said he has received one email from Steinberg, on Jan. 29, which read, “I am out of the country. What Matt has offered is fair.” (The offer of the additional $15,000, Ortiz said, was extended from Kuchar’s camp through a Mayakoba Classic representative.)

Quote:

A $3,000 weekly payment for a fill-in local caddie would widely be considered generous pay by Tour standards. The sticking point is the size of the bonus. A Tour caddie typically receives five percent of a player’s winnings, a higher percentage for a top-10 finish and 10 percent for a win. These arrangements are usually handshake deals.

Ortiz said that Kuchar said at the start of the tournament that he would be paid $3,000 for the week, plus an unspecified percentage of his winnings.

On that basis, in the euphoria of victory, Ortiz had hoped to make as much as $130,000. When Kuchar left Mexico, the caddie said, he was under the impression that he would still receive a bonus.

By Sunday night of the tournament, Kuchar’s smiling face was sunburned and covered in stubble. He and Ortiz posed for pictures together with the winner’s trophy. Later, Ortiz said the golfer handed him an envelope with his payment in cash in it and said, ”There you go. Thank you. Bye.”

Ortiz said the envelope contained $100s, $50s, $20s and $5s that it added up to exactly $5,000. He counted it after Kuchar had handed it to him and left.

Quote:

The payment dispute became Tour fodder when Tom Gillis, a former Tour player, tweeted about it in January. Ortiz said he did not know how Gillis heard about it. He also said he was offended by some of the comments he read about the dispute. “I read, ‘That’s a lot of money, for a Mexican,’” referring to Gillis’s initial claim, that Ortiz was paid $3,000. But Ortiz also said he had read many supportive messages on social media.

Ortiz lives in a small cinderblock house that is a 20-minute bus ride to the course. He said with a more substantial payment, he and his common-law wife had hoped to start a laundromat. As for the $5,000 he made, Ortiz said most of it had been spent on painting the house, buying new curtains and a mirror for it and flying his young daughter home from Veracruz, Mexico, for Christmas. He said his caddie services at the Mayakoba resort were in higher demand since Kuchar’s win there. He said he makes as much as $200 on a good day as a club caddie, though half that is more typical.

Quote:

The first ending was a happy one. The second was not. Ortiz said he still hoped to receive another $45,000 from Kuchar, for a total of $50,000, the sum he thinks is a fair share of Kuchar’s $1.3 million first-place check.

“Maybe I will,” he said. He acknowledged that it is more likely he won’t.

Quote:

Kuchar seemed slightly embarrassed that the additional sum had been offered, as he felt his financial obligation to Ortiz was complete. Asked how it came to be that the additional sum was offered, Kuchar said, “That was the agency.” He was referring to Excel Sports Management, which represents him. Kuchar’s agent there is Mark Steinberg, who also represents Tiger Woods and Justin Rose.

Kuchar was asked who would actually pay the money.

Kuchar smiled and said, “It’s not coming out of Steinberg’s pocket.” In other words, Kuchar would be paying. He said the additional proffered payment was Steinberg’s effort at damage control.

Quote:

"I think if you ask locker room attendants, they’ll tell you that they’re happy to see me. I’m no Phil Mickelson, but these guys are like, 'Matt’s coming our way.’

Quote:

“I think people know me well enough to know I wasn’t trying to get away with anything, that is not how I operate,” Kuchar said. He said some players were giving him a hard time about the caddie-payment debacle, “as I would them.” Kuchar has a reputation for having the needle out and talking smack during practice rounds.

Kuchar said he did not really understand why the pay dispute has turned into such an emotional issue. Told that a $5,000 caddie payment on a $1.3 million payday seemed frugal, he nodded, but indicated he had a different view.

“For a guy who makes $200 a day, a $5,000 week is a really big week,” he said.

Quote:

There are players, fairly or not, who have a reputation for being frugal tippers. And there are players on the other end of the spectrum. Asked where he falls on that spectrum, Kuchar said, “I think if you ask locker room attendants, they’ll tell you that they’re happy to see me. I’m no Phil Mickelson, but these guys are like, ‘Matt’s coming our way.’

“Maybe I missed the boat here. I kind of think I go there [to Mexico City] next week, and win, am I expected to pay him $130,000?”

Kuchar, the player ranked 10th on the all-time Tour money list with $46 million, has his own answer. He paid $5,000. Had he paid $50,000, you’d be reading something else. And had he paid $130,000, he’d be a legend at Mayakoba, and in caddie yards far and wide, forever.

ringfinger
Retired Number

Joined: 08 Oct 2013
Posts: 29418

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:51 am Post subject:

He didn’t short change the caddie. The amount was agreed to prior and Kuchar paid him in excess of that. Now maybe some folks think the caddie should have been given more but that is different than short changing him.

governator
Retired Number

Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 25086

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:52 am Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:

He didn’t short change the caddie. The amount was agreed to prior and Kuchar paid him in excess of that.

Now maybe some folks think the caddie should have been given more but that is different than short changing him.

Not shortchanged, what's the word for poor faith negotiation?

LakerLanny
Retired Number

Joined: 24 Oct 2001
Posts: 47580

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:32 am Post subject:

Not a good look at all for Kuchar. Just pay the guy the regular 10%, who cares? _________________ Love, Laker Lanny

ringfinger
Retired Number

Joined: 08 Oct 2013
Posts: 29418

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:51 am Post subject:

governator wrote:

ringfinger wrote:

Not shortchanged, what's the word for poor faith negotiation?

Poor faith? I mean, it appears that they had a good faith negotiation. He paid above what he was legally required to pay as a result of that negotiation. If anything that is good faith negotiation on the part of Kuchar.

The fill-in caddie isn't claiming violation of contract here, is he? I haven't seen that. If so, that would be short changing. It sounds like he is saying he wants to be paid what HE thinks is fair even though he never agreed to it. Would love it if I could do that after negotiating a job offer.

Also, Kuchar offered him $20K and he refused it. So I'm not sure who the arbiter of what is fair for a fill-in caddie is, but, Kuchar has every legal right to pay him at least the $4K they agreed to and nothing more. Now if they agreed to $50K, or $130K or whatever, then yeah, he needs to pony up.

The caddie should accept his poor decision, and learn for next time to get this stuff in writing and make sure your terms are clear. Negotiating after the fact is poor faith negotiating.

governator
Retired Number

Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 25086

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:03 am Post subject:

ringfinger wrote:

governator wrote:

ringfinger wrote:

Not shortchanged, what's the word for poor faith negotiation?

negotiating well below market value is poor faith, no?

Display posts from previous:

LakersGround.net Forum Index -> Off Topic

All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page 1, 2, 3 Next

Page 1 of 3

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

LakersGround is an unofficial news source serving the fan community since 1995.

We are in no way associated with the Los Angeles Lakers or the National Basketball Association.