Moral of the Story: Stop Trying to Trade for Stars
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AFireInside619
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:35 pm    Post subject:

hype wrote:
AFireInside619 wrote:
Yin, we are down by 39 to the Dipo-less Pacers as I speak. My attitude will change later, but as of right now we should trade the whole team and coaching staff.


If you want to go by just that game Lebron looked AWFUL.. Horrible decisions on defense and offense, taking bad shots and looking about as disinterested as i've ever seen him (i will admit i started fast forwarding towards the end of the second but i highly doubt it got any better).. Don't get me wrong I think Lebron will be just fine obviously but for the leader of the team to play like that it is hard to throw much blame on the rest of the team for that specific game....

I still firmly believe ingram and ball will be elite within the next couple years but the entire energy of this team is just completely destroyed lately and once again the leader in lebron when asked how his teammates are handling it simply just basically says he has no idea since he has not talked to them about it and never had to deal with it but it's probably pretty tough

i agree about the staff 100% but it's not like there are any upgrades out there right now.. it'll just be a ton of more drama for a lateral move at best.

i believe trades will and always should be pondered by the lakers though but not destroying an entire rebuild in one big swoop for a single player. i see people trying to say its like kobe and shaq but in reality its not even kobe and gasol (not to mention the solid core they still had around those two which we would have nothing remotely close).. lebron is not kobe good anymore at either of those stages due mostly to his current age imo and its anybody's guess if he starts falling apart soon or it could be a couple more years.. then davis who is nowhere close to shaq's level, still a great player but also always getting little injuries nearly every single week it seems. i dont see how you can move the entire core plus some to count on two guys that could be dominant but also could be out at any point especially considering they will have to both play 40+ over the next 2-3 seasons at least to have any real chance of doing anything in the playoffs.

sure, the lakers always made those trades but they never depleted an entire roster for one guy.


You are right about Zo and BI. They will become stars in the NBA.
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pokoy
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:50 am    Post subject:

Moral of the story - stop trying to build teams with young talent then ruining all of that by bringing in a player with a win-now mentality. They will never mix.

See: Bron and LA, Kyrie and Boston, Butler and Minny.

Just doesn't work. Either go all in on the youth movement and bring in only vets who know they are role players, or trade all the youth movement for good pieces to go around the new stars.
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lonzobryant
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:52 am    Post subject:

pokoy wrote:
Moral of the story - stop trying to build teams with young talent then ruining all of that by bringing in a player with a win-now mentality. They will never mix.

See: Bron and LA, Kyrie and Boston, Butler and Minny.

Just doesn't work. Either go all in on the youth movement and bring in only vets who know they are role players, or trade all the youth movement for good pieces to go around the new stars.


Yup.
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:56 am    Post subject:

pokoy wrote:
Moral of the story - stop trying to build teams with young talent then ruining all of that by bringing in a player with a win-now mentality. They will never mix.

See: Bron and LA, Kyrie and Boston, Butler and Minny.

Just doesn't work. Either go all in on the youth movement and bring in only vets who know they are role players, or trade all the youth movement for good pieces to go around the new stars.


Didn't we go all in on a youth movement for 4 years which yielded...not much.

The real problem IMO was not getting a 2nd star with LBJ via FA, and now they're trying to get one via trade (which recent history with PG/KL/AD has shown is going to be met with significant resistance).
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:05 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
pokoy wrote:
Moral of the story - stop trying to build teams with young talent then ruining all of that by bringing in a player with a win-now mentality. They will never mix.

See: Bron and LA, Kyrie and Boston, Butler and Minny.

Just doesn't work. Either go all in on the youth movement and bring in only vets who know they are role players, or trade all the youth movement for good pieces to go around the new stars.


Didn't we go all in on a youth movement for 4 years which yielded...not much.

The real problem IMO was not getting a 2nd star with LBJ via FA, and now they're trying to get one via trade (which recent history with PG/KL/AD has shown is going to be met with significant resistance).


Yes - if we had gotten PG as well, we definitely would be a in a better spot, but in that scenario, we would cease "building around" the youth - meaning we likely wouldn't be counting on the young guys as much, they'd likely either be role players whose development as "main pieces" would be stunted or trade bait for better veteran role players. BI wouldn't even have time to try and carry the scoring load if PG were here, he'd have been the first player shipped out.

Also - we did go all in on a youth movement for 4 years, then scrapped all of that when we traded away DLo for cap space (granted the MozDeng deals were probably the start of the death of the youth movement because jeebus wtf were they thinking). Remember, youth movement won't pay off until 4-6 years down the road because it takes that long for them to actually develop. As many have pointed out already, if we had kept DLo and Randle, we'd probably have a pretty exciting and competitive team right now.
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:08 am    Post subject:

pokoy wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
pokoy wrote:
Moral of the story - stop trying to build teams with young talent then ruining all of that by bringing in a player with a win-now mentality. They will never mix.

See: Bron and LA, Kyrie and Boston, Butler and Minny.

Just doesn't work. Either go all in on the youth movement and bring in only vets who know they are role players, or trade all the youth movement for good pieces to go around the new stars.


Didn't we go all in on a youth movement for 4 years which yielded...not much.

The real problem IMO was not getting a 2nd star with LBJ via FA, and now they're trying to get one via trade (which recent history with PG/KL/AD has shown is going to be met with significant resistance).


Yes - if we had gotten PG as well, we definitely would be a in a better spot, but in that scenario, we would cease "building around" the youth - meaning we likely wouldn't be counting on the young guys as much, they'd likely either be role players whose development as "main pieces" would be stunted or trade bait for better veteran role players. BI wouldn't even have time to try and carry the scoring load if PG were here, he'd have been the first player shipped out.

Also - we did go all in on a youth movement for 4 years, then scrapped all of that when we traded away DLo for cap space (granted the MozDeng deals were probably the start of the death of the youth movement because jeebus wtf were they thinking). Remember, youth movement won't pay off until 4-6 years down the road because it takes that long for them to actually develop. As many have pointed out already, if we had kept DLo and Randle, we'd probably have a pretty exciting and competitive team right now.


They weren't "wrong" IMO to have a 2 max plan (which coincidentally was Mitch/Jim's plan). I think trading for a star is just so difficult b/c of the Lakers baggage with other teams.

I think missing 5 years of playoffs really irked the ownership. It is what it is, but under no circumstances could the team wait another 2-3 years for them to possibly make the playoffs (and then you have to re-sign them to deals too).
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Fortysixn2
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:10 am    Post subject:

Yeah, that trade for Pau was a horrible idea....only got us two titles. I hated when we traded for Kareem, we should have learned our lesson.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:15 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
pokoy wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
pokoy wrote:
Moral of the story - stop trying to build teams with young talent then ruining all of that by bringing in a player with a win-now mentality. They will never mix.

See: Bron and LA, Kyrie and Boston, Butler and Minny.

Just doesn't work. Either go all in on the youth movement and bring in only vets who know they are role players, or trade all the youth movement for good pieces to go around the new stars.


Didn't we go all in on a youth movement for 4 years which yielded...not much.

The real problem IMO was not getting a 2nd star with LBJ via FA, and now they're trying to get one via trade (which recent history with PG/KL/AD has shown is going to be met with significant resistance).


Yes - if we had gotten PG as well, we definitely would be a in a better spot, but in that scenario, we would cease "building around" the youth - meaning we likely wouldn't be counting on the young guys as much, they'd likely either be role players whose development as "main pieces" would be stunted or trade bait for better veteran role players. BI wouldn't even have time to try and carry the scoring load if PG were here, he'd have been the first player shipped out.

Also - we did go all in on a youth movement for 4 years, then scrapped all of that when we traded away DLo for cap space (granted the MozDeng deals were probably the start of the death of the youth movement because jeebus wtf were they thinking). Remember, youth movement won't pay off until 4-6 years down the road because it takes that long for them to actually develop. As many have pointed out already, if we had kept DLo and Randle, we'd probably have a pretty exciting and competitive team right now.


They weren't "wrong" IMO to have a 2 max plan (which coincidentally was Mitch/Jim's plan). I think trading for a star is just so difficult b/c of the Lakers baggage with other teams.

I think missing 5 years of playoffs really irked the ownership. It is what it is, but under no circumstances could the team wait another 2-3 years for them to possibly make the playoffs (and then you have to re-sign them to deals too).


That reminds me - why did our rebuild take so long? Because we couldn't really go all in on the youth movement until Kobe retired. We really did waste the first two years for DLo's and Randle's development because Kobe was still playing like the main guy.

And I'm not saying the 2 max plan is wrong either (and actually, my sense was getting rid of both Jim and Mitch was a mistake.... Magic and Mitch I think would have worked much better but oh well. It is what it is) - I'm just saying that if we did succeed in that 2 max plan, the likelihood at this point of the season would have been our front office trying to trade some of the young guys for veteran talent.
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:15 am    Post subject:

Fortysixn2 wrote:
Yeah, that trade for Pau was a horrible idea....only got us two titles. I hated when we traded for Kareem, we should have learned our lesson.


Funny you say that.

B/c Pau is the reason why Popovich is still upset about the Lakers and likely whispering in Demps' ears not to do it.

How quickly you forget the PG/KL/and now the AD trade talks. Nothing in good faith.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:19 am    Post subject:

Fortysixn2 wrote:
Yeah, that trade for Pau was a horrible idea....only got us two titles. I hated when we traded for Kareem, we should have learned our lesson.

1) Kobe could win a chip with 1 allstar teammate. Nobody knows if Lebron can.
2) Who would be our Odom, Bynum, Ariza/Artest, if we trade 3 starters and a total of 5 players in our rotation for AD?
3) Is there a coach alive as good as Phil was (winning a chip over 1/2 the seasons he coached)?
4) In terms of winning basketball AD doesn't belong in the same sentence as Kareem (before we traded for him).
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:21 am    Post subject:

kikanga wrote:
Fortysixn2 wrote:
Yeah, that trade for Pau was a horrible idea....only got us two titles. I hated when we traded for Kareem, we should have learned our lesson.

1) Kobe could win a chip with 1 allstar teammate. Nobody knows if Lebron can.
2) Who would be our Odom, Bynum, Ariza/Artest, if we trade 3 starters and a total of 5 players in our rotation for AD?
3) Is there a coach alive as good as Phil was (winning a chip over 1/2 the seasons he coached)?
4) In terms of winning basketball AD doesn't belong in the same sentence as Kareem (before we traded for him).


I'm all in favor of getting as many 5 carat diamonds as possible. I just don't think a team is gifting us one via trade unless the terms are so objectively offensive and unreasonable.

If I understand the cap mechanics, we could theoretically get AD, and have up to 30m in cap space, which is enough to either get several Ariza-level of impact players or another all star level player (with no depth).
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:24 am    Post subject:

The best player I ever saw play was traded to the Lakers for 2 players and 2 top picks. Davis isn't a difference maker worth giving up half your team for, and all of your morale, plus 4 draft picks. PASS!

We apparently learned nothing about chemistry from last year's team with length that gave the Warriors all they could handle, then smashed them in game 1 before succumbing to injuries. The secret to this team is being able to prevent mismatches for periods long enough to be exploited during a 24 second clock. Even Svi fit that chemistry. The trade is the beginning of going away from that, and acquiring players made for mediocre teams, imo.


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lakurluv
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:25 am    Post subject:

Moral of the Story, if you don't want to be traded...

PLAY LIKE #2 PICKS!!!

Zo+BI are both players who should be playing at a higher more consistent level. If they were to be traded, it would only be off of their potential and for the Pelicans that simply wasn't enough for a Top-5 Player.

If you look at the numbers, KCP+ZO+BI would have easily worked in a trade, but because NO didn't feel they were getting adequate value, they asked for more... albeit it was way more than they should have, because I bet they won't receive an offer like that in the off-season.

They may feel that Tatum has more Star potential, which he probably does, but it remains to be seen; however I guarantee Boston gives a lot less in terms of physical players than what the Lakers were offering.

IMO players who are coming out of College/High School and drafted anywhere from 1-5, shouldn't feel so entitled. They need to get out there and earn that paycheck and prove their worth/value.

ZO could potentially be a great point guard, keyword = potential!
He's been injured since coming into the league on and off, hasn't put up any real solid consistent numbers and he's a number two pick!

The most consistent player who was drafted at #2 and should have been #1 that I can recall, is the only guy who's #2 in the last 12 years that's played at a Superstar level and that's Kevin Durant. And he still hasn't got his big pay-day. So These guys need to step up their game, stop B*#$@IN and complaining and being in their feelings...

I say we need to trade both BI+ZO before the deadline! Especially if they're so in their feelings that they don't want to play or perform with the Top-5 player they currently have on the roster.
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pokoy
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:28 am    Post subject:

lakurluv wrote:
Moral of the Story, if you don't want to be traded...

PLAY LIKE #2 PICKS!!!



I mean so far, they actually are. Have you seen the list of #2 picks?

Seriously though, I get your point... but historically speaking, that #2 slot has mostly been miss than hit.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:30 am    Post subject:

If our picks were playing like Simmons or even DFox, I think we'd be in a much different trade negotiations posture and/or even not thinking of trading at all and continuing on the original plan to sign a max FA.

I think we've got intel that none of KD/KL/Klay are coming to LA so they feel compelled to get that star via the most difficult way in today's NBA.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:30 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
pokoy wrote:
Moral of the story - stop trying to build teams with young talent then ruining all of that by bringing in a player with a win-now mentality. They will never mix.

See: Bron and LA, Kyrie and Boston, Butler and Minny.

Just doesn't work. Either go all in on the youth movement and bring in only vets who know they are role players, or trade all the youth movement for good pieces to go around the new stars.


Didn't we go all in on a youth movement for 4 years which yielded...not much.

The real problem IMO was not getting a 2nd star with LBJ via FA, and now they're trying to get one via trade (which recent history with PG/KL/AD has shown is going to be met with significant resistance).


We spent four years drafting players because our previous title run ended. That's not the same thing as going all-in on a youth movement. We've hedged between youth movement and trying to win now by moving assets for cap space (Russell), losing them for nothing (Randle), and signing a a 33 going on 34-year-old superstar in win-now mode who automatically puts all the remaining youth on the table as assets to be moved. And the front office's complete lack of subtlety doesn't help matters when you're in this awkward in between stage. The guys on this team are feeling the same way Randle and Russell felt before them, except it's worse now because literally half the team feels unvalued and disposable.
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:32 am    Post subject:

KBH wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
pokoy wrote:
Moral of the story - stop trying to build teams with young talent then ruining all of that by bringing in a player with a win-now mentality. They will never mix.

See: Bron and LA, Kyrie and Boston, Butler and Minny.

Just doesn't work. Either go all in on the youth movement and bring in only vets who know they are role players, or trade all the youth movement for good pieces to go around the new stars.


Didn't we go all in on a youth movement for 4 years which yielded...not much.

The real problem IMO was not getting a 2nd star with LBJ via FA, and now they're trying to get one via trade (which recent history with PG/KL/AD has shown is going to be met with significant resistance).


We spent four years drafting players because our previous title run ended. That's not the same thing as going all-in on a youth movement. We've hedged between youth movement and trying to win now by moving assets for cap space (Russell), losing them for nothing (Randle), and signing a a 33 going on 34-year-old superstar in win-now mode who automatically puts all the remaining youth on the table as assets to be moved. And the front office's complete lack of subtlety doesn't help matters when you're in this awkward in between stage. The guys on this team are feeling the same way Randle and Russell felt before them, except it's worse now because literally half the team feels unvalued and disposable.


But how do you sell 5 years of missing the playoffs, "but can we get like 2-3 more years (and extending the high draft picks too)?"

I think we picked guys in Lonzo/BI who may be all stars, but will need the most time to develop. They came in physically underdeveloped and had some major flaws in their games from the get go.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:37 am    Post subject:

sogood. wrote:
Real moral of the story:

Draft better.


Except Lonzo they took the highest rated player available (Ingram/Randle) or the one with great upside (russell).

I like the flashes Lonzo shows but was the only "reach" based on where we were drafting. if we chose Ingram over Simmons or Russell over KAT then I would agree.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:39 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
KBH wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
pokoy wrote:
Moral of the story - stop trying to build teams with young talent then ruining all of that by bringing in a player with a win-now mentality. They will never mix.

See: Bron and LA, Kyrie and Boston, Butler and Minny.

Just doesn't work. Either go all in on the youth movement and bring in only vets who know they are role players, or trade all the youth movement for good pieces to go around the new stars.


Didn't we go all in on a youth movement for 4 years which yielded...not much.

The real problem IMO was not getting a 2nd star with LBJ via FA, and now they're trying to get one via trade (which recent history with PG/KL/AD has shown is going to be met with significant resistance).


We spent four years drafting players because our previous title run ended. That's not the same thing as going all-in on a youth movement. We've hedged between youth movement and trying to win now by moving assets for cap space (Russell), losing them for nothing (Randle), and signing a a 33 going on 34-year-old superstar in win-now mode who automatically puts all the remaining youth on the table as assets to be moved. And the front office's complete lack of subtlety doesn't help matters when you're in this awkward in between stage. The guys on this team are feeling the same way Randle and Russell felt before them, except it's worse now because literally half the team feels unvalued and disposable.


But how do you sell 5 years of missing the playoffs, "but can we get like 2-3 more years (and extending the high draft picks too)?"

I think we picked guys in Lonzo/BI who may be all stars, but will need the most time to develop. They came in physically underdeveloped and had some major flaws in their games from the get go.


Sell it to whom? Jeanie? Most Lakers fans seemed to be OK with being patient with the development process. This isn't to say that signing LeBron was wrong because he's the best player in the NBA. But our FO seems woefully unprepared to deal with people management, impatient while lacking subtlety all at once. Couple that with LeBron who has his own plans and power in the league and you're in an awkward situation...unless you successfully pull this AD trade off. And I think the trade has to happen at this point because we might have a situation where we have four to six post-CP3 trade Pau Gasols.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:39 am    Post subject:

KBH wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
KBH wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
pokoy wrote:
Moral of the story - stop trying to build teams with young talent then ruining all of that by bringing in a player with a win-now mentality. They will never mix.

See: Bron and LA, Kyrie and Boston, Butler and Minny.

Just doesn't work. Either go all in on the youth movement and bring in only vets who know they are role players, or trade all the youth movement for good pieces to go around the new stars.


Didn't we go all in on a youth movement for 4 years which yielded...not much.

The real problem IMO was not getting a 2nd star with LBJ via FA, and now they're trying to get one via trade (which recent history with PG/KL/AD has shown is going to be met with significant resistance).


We spent four years drafting players because our previous title run ended. That's not the same thing as going all-in on a youth movement. We've hedged between youth movement and trying to win now by moving assets for cap space (Russell), losing them for nothing (Randle), and signing a a 33 going on 34-year-old superstar in win-now mode who automatically puts all the remaining youth on the table as assets to be moved. And the front office's complete lack of subtlety doesn't help matters when you're in this awkward in between stage. The guys on this team are feeling the same way Randle and Russell felt before them, except it's worse now because literally half the team feels unvalued and disposable.


But how do you sell 5 years of missing the playoffs, "but can we get like 2-3 more years (and extending the high draft picks too)?"

I think we picked guys in Lonzo/BI who may be all stars, but will need the most time to develop. They came in physically underdeveloped and had some major flaws in their games from the get go.


Sell it to whom? Jeanie? Most Lakers fans seemed to be OK with being patient with the development process. This isn't to say that signing LeBron was wrong because he's the best player in the NBA. But our FO seems woefully unprepared to deal with people management, impatient while lacking subtlety all at once. Couple that with LeBron who has his own plans and power in the league and you're in an awkward situation...unless you successfully pull this AD trade off. And I think the trade has to happen at this point because we might have a situation where we have four to six post-CP3 trade Pau Gasols.


Well, she is an owner which is who I was referring to.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:40 am    Post subject:

I never wanted to trade for AD.

We had a plan and we should have stook with it. We got tangled in the AD mess and we let things get leaked out about it.

There is no doubt in my mind that our young core has been damaged in all this. With the exception of Ingram (and Ball, obviously), none of our young core are playing as well as they did before this mess got started. I'm hoping they move on from this. I just don't know.

Lebron James remains a question mark. I'm not certain if I trust him. He comes across to me as being very manipulative and passive-aggressive.

The plan to develop our young core and trade for a star player still is the best plan available. Thursday can't come soon enough.

Magic and Pelinka, especially Magic, will learn from this and move on.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:41 am    Post subject:

Quote:
With the exception of Ingram (and Ball, obviously), none of our young core are playing as well as they did before this mess got started.


What was our record 15 games prior to the AD trade rumors?

So if BI is fine, Lonzo is hurt, then who is really struggling b/c of the trade rumor specifically?

Kuz has been struggling for a few weeks now especially with that hip injury.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:42 am    Post subject:

pokoy wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
pokoy wrote:
Moral of the story - stop trying to build teams with young talent then ruining all of that by bringing in a player with a win-now mentality. They will never mix.

See: Bron and LA, Kyrie and Boston, Butler and Minny.

Just doesn't work. Either go all in on the youth movement and bring in only vets who know they are role players, or trade all the youth movement for good pieces to go around the new stars.


Didn't we go all in on a youth movement for 4 years which yielded...not much.

The real problem IMO was not getting a 2nd star with LBJ via FA, and now they're trying to get one via trade (which recent history with PG/KL/AD has shown is going to be met with significant resistance).


Yes - if we had gotten PG as well, we definitely would be a in a better spot, but in that scenario, we would cease "building around" the youth - meaning we likely wouldn't be counting on the young guys as much, they'd likely either be role players whose development as "main pieces" would be stunted or trade bait for better veteran role players. BI wouldn't even have time to try and carry the scoring load if PG were here, he'd have been the first player shipped out.

Also - we did go all in on a youth movement for 4 years, then scrapped all of that when we traded away DLo for cap space (granted the MozDeng deals were probably the start of the death of the youth movement because jeebus wtf were they thinking). Remember, youth movement won't pay off until 4-6 years down the road because it takes that long for them to actually develop. As many have pointed out already, if we had kept DLo and Randle, we'd probably have a pretty exciting and competitive team right now.


This was very well said.
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:44 am    Post subject:

So going back to my original point, is it really worth it, knowing:

1. low regard for our Lakers young core from other teams;
2. clear resentment from other teams about the Lakers for whatever reason;

To go all in and hope a 3rd time's the charm?

I'm perfectly aware that there is a decent chance the AD trade happens, but it will be at a significant premium rate.

I think a lot of us are actually agreeing about how perilous it is to trade for a star given these factors.
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troy
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:54 am    Post subject:

Magic's philosophy with the Lakers is similar to what he's done with the Dodgers; go after home run hitters and ignore the contact hitters.
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